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1 hour ago, Wess said:

So few lemmings, so much time...

If you love China go move there and or buy their shit. 

 I double dare you LOL.

Chances are if it has plastic on it or in it there are at least China components.  What cell phone do you have?  I was in that industry and back in 2006 every damn one of them was manufactured in China.  Even RIM said they would "never" go to China but they did that year.  The re-man locations we in places like Hungary. 

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19 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Chances are if it has plastic on it or in it there are at least China components.  What cell phone do you have?  I was in that industry and back in 2006 every damn one of them was manufactured in China.  Even RIM said they would "never" go to China but they did that year.  The re-man locations we in places like Hungary. 

Why is this so hard or even controversial such that its a fun trolling topic.  If you want to go there or buy there go ahead.  Ain't nobody stopping you. I avoid Chinese products when and where I can.  Just like I avoid corporate and try to buy from local business when I can.  I really do laugh at all the snowflakes that make this about bigotry (like I or anyone else cares what they think).  Imagine if Dave up at Fulcrum made ILCAs.  That would be my first stop.  Even if it was more expensive. The quality would be better than Zim China and he is a local US business.  Pretty sure his and my political views would be night and day different but that is where I would buy.  Period.  So you and the others can make this about whatever you want and believe whatever you want.  And yes I admit its fun to troll you on the cheap Chinese crap point but that is because you make it so.  This idiocy should have died long ago but by all means lets continue to talk about ILCA and its cheap Chinese crap that sucks so bad they can't manage to mount a bow fitting correctly, or outhaul hardware, or, or, or... all according to YOU!  Odd how Ovi boats don't have these problems.

My gosh you lemmings are your own worse enemy sometimes.

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Wess is typing his/her posts with a Commodore 64 or Radio Shack TRS80 to ensure 100% US-made down to the plastic! No scary, pesky Chinese associated with that hardware! 

At least it's easy to find a used 100% US or 100% Canadian made Laser (maybe with some hardware produced in Europe) for a great price that provides a perfect on the water distraction from our present global economy.:D

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And there you have it.  Like moths to a flame. Yet another post on crappy Chinese ILCA boats!

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43 minutes ago, Wess said:

And there you have it.  Like moths to a flame. Yet another post on crappy Chinese ILCA boats!

Better keep you "IMO" disclaimers in here.  Remember when the SA boys got sued by the "big" (IMO) guy?

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27 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Better keep you "IMO" disclaimers in here.  Remember when the SA boys got sued by the "big" (IMO) guy?

You are cracking me up. It’s YOU that posted the pics and list of quality defects no? All I can do is offer an opinion that I am shocked just shocked. NOT. I would never have even looked at them as I try to avoid buying Chinese crap. And even in this snowflake world I do get to decide what products to buy and which to avoid. Gettin a bit desperate here aren’t you?

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

You are cracking me up. It’s YOU that posted the pics and list of quality defects no? All I can do is offer an opinion that I am shocked just shocked. NOT. I would never have even looked at them as I try to avoid buying Chinese crap. And even in this snowflake world I do get to decide what products to buy and which to avoid. Gettin a bit desperate here aren’t you?

I didn't post any picks.  Just honest reporting on my first had experiences with the new ZIM boats, some of the owners and the local dealer.

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

I would never have even looked at them as I try to avoid buying Chinese crap.

I imagined Wess has been inspecting Chinese wastewater treatment plants to increase his expertise in Chinese crap.

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10 hours ago, Wess said:

I avoid Chinese products when and where I can.  Just like I avoid corporate and try to buy from local business when I can.

Those two things are similar on one level and fundamentally different on another.

You either have the mental clarity to tell the difference, or you don't.

That's all.

Unfortunately, there's a very real human impact to the inability to tell that difference. People amplify dog whistles because they are not very bright and/or because they are complicit... But the distinction is pretty blurry. The resulting stochastic terrorism is damn real.

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Just BTW, I buy a lot of their (China) "shit" specifically because even at 4 times the price, you just can't get it elsewhere, others just don't have their "processes" in place.

But to call it "shit" is a fallacy, the new spreader arms we are getting, courtesy of the Cycle industry, are simply breathtakingly beautiful, in terms of design, function, strength and simplicity.    Couple that to the spreader "sprocket" and you have a part that is so much better, in so many ways, and yes cheaper than the previous US, RSA, Sri Lankan, NZ or Spanish products, that they are not even attempting to try and compete.

Indirectly we have willing abrogated our manufacturing because of the "greed disease" that so grossly grips Mercia and gave us, among other things the GFC, that we all buy copious amount of directly or indirectly of Chinese made parts that to exclude them from our purchase would mean no cars, no electronics, etc etc.

I'm present involved in another project which requires prototyping, in a few fields, and even the Australian manufacture, in this case 3D printing and circuit boards simply give us the address of a Chinese prototype house because they don't have the time or the resources to do it, let alone compete.    To design something one day and have it arrive in the post on your door step 4 days latter, it alters your whole mindset of how you approach the design process.

Even considered buying my own 3D printer, it's just not worth it, better things to do with my time.

Enjoy the world of denial!

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15 hours ago, Wess said:

I avoid Chinese products when and where I can.  Just like I avoid corporate and try to buy from local business when I can.  I really do laugh at all the snowflakes that make this about bigotry (like I or anyone else cares what they think). 

This sums up Wess and his warped attitude. I have no issue with buying locally and supporting small business over global corporate\ions. That is a choice I make based on what I believe is best for the country I live in, its future and its economy. I do it on the condition that the quality is equal to (or better) than the alternative and that the price isn't ridiculous. Yes, I will pay a small premium. All of this I openly admit and I cannot see how anybody could have an issue with this. I would not have any issue with Wess if that is what he was saying.

He thinks that he is doing the same, but he is not, because he is simply prejudiced against Chinese quality. From everything he has posted, it is clear that it doesn't matter what the product is, he won't buy Chinese because he thinks the products are inferior. Through his generalisation and prejudice, he is by definition, a bigot.

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Hey Simon you forgot to add "who will avoid buying Chinese products."  But again any time you want to buy and tell us about your Chinese ILCA feel free to do so.  Or Martin, or Julian. But I bet you don't put your money where your mouth is.  BTW, I take being insulted by a bunch of morons like you as a compliment! 

And I love it even more because it highlights yet again the path ILCA is on.

Get your Chinese junk here!  Get em while they are wet (and leaky per Robbie)!

Moths to a flame.  Fish in a barrel.  So easy a caveman could do it.  And so much fun.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Hey Simon you forgot to add "who will avoid buying Chinese products."  But again any time you want to buy and tell us about your Chinese ILCA feel free to do so.  Or Martin, or Julian. But I bet you don't put your money where your mouth is.  BTW, I take being insulted by a bunch of morons like you as a compliment! 

And I love it even more because it highlights yet again the path ILCA is on.

Get your Chinese junk here!  Get em while they are wet (and leaky per Robbie)!

Moths to a flame.  Fish in a barrel.  So easy a caveman could do it.  And so much fun.

Many many people who make decisions have put their money where their mouth is, which is why so many products are made in China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand and India etc. Those who have no control, get upset because of their bigotry.

In the end, the minority of people who make statements which are examples of textbook bigotry (like Wess above) are hypocrites, typing their words on a device which in the very least has components made in China - no doubt naively purchased by Wess himself.

Wess, in the 'name of fun' is happy to offend with his overt racism, and in the end it doesn't matter if that racism is genuine or mock - what matters is that Wess chose to make offensive racist remarks.

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Wess was at the capitol riots, of course he says this shit about Furriners. He’s scared of the FBI though which is why he held off on the racism for a couple months. They know he posts here. 

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5 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Wess was at the capitol riots, of course he says this shit about Furriners. He’s scared of the FBI though which is why he held off on the racism for a couple months. They know he posts here. 

To 96% of the people in the world, Wess is a 'furriner'.

To the 4% group to which Wess belongs, thankfully most are embarrassed by those who act in a racist way.

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Back to sailing and specifically the ZIM ILCA's ,I wonder if by having an established ILCA builder in China means that some of those boats find their way to the growing middle class in China and will help grow our overall sport?

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4 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

Back to sailing and specifically the ZIM ILCA's ,I wonder if by having an established ILCA builder in China means that some of those boats find their way to the growing middle class in China and will help grow our overall sport?

Good question to focus on - perhaps not just China but all of Asia - and not just Zim in China but Element 6 Evolution in Thailand.

ILCA membership in Asia is set to continue to rise.

Nethra Kumanan is India's first woman sailor to qualify for the Olympics. That fact made India's mainstream media, helping promoting ILCA (and sailing in general) in India.

image.png.dc614dc69926a11f5768d7ecbc21e343.png

 

 https://www.hindustantimes.com/sports/olympics/nethra-kumanan-becomes-first-indian-woman-sailor-to-qualify-for-olympics-101617812188268.html

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7 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Wess was at the capitol riots

LOL, well I was in the area. 

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5 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

Back to sailing and specifically the ZIM ILCA's ,I wonder if by having an established ILCA builder in China means that some of those boats find their way to the growing middle class in China and will help grow our overall sport?

There is no doubt that is Tracey's intent. He pretty much posted just that if I recall correctly.

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13 hours ago, Wess said:

Hey Simon you forgot to add "who will avoid buying Chinese products."  But again any time you want to buy and tell us about your Chinese ILCA feel free to do so.  Or Martin, or Julian. But I bet you don't put your money where your mouth is.  BTW, I take being insulted by a bunch of morons like you as a compliment! 

And I love it even more because it highlights yet again the path ILCA is on.

Get your Chinese junk here!  Get em while they are wet (and leaky per Robbie)!

Moths to a flame.  Fish in a barrel.  So easy a caveman could do it.  And so much fun.

I have been buying "their shit" on average every month for the last 10 year.

Last import, about a month ago, was well over 1/4 tonne, came in via Cathay Pacific.

Monday, my co-collaborator will be getting about 2kgs (the new project)

In 10 days time, it will be another 20-30kgs.

I always deem it a surprise, because it more often than not, it exceeds expectation.

And I don't buy it because it cost effective, exceedingly timely and fit for purpose,   (which it is)

I buy it because its great, and as said, always exceeds.

But your right, it's not a ILCA, my last boat purchase, was a diesel Ford Territory to tow a Thompson 8, and I am really looking fwd to driving all over Australia sailing it with my mates.    One sail tends not to cut it for me, especially a pin-head!

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Oh, I should probably add, I have been in everyone one of these people's factories with the exception of Devoti.

I actually find it extremely amusing that they are all effectively "9er" factories, again with the exception of Devoti and now PSA.

But Ovington, Nautivela, Zou, Rio Techna, Element6 and PSJ all have some level of 9er involvement be it tooling or stocking, as dose ZIM (USA) and as did the old PSI (2000) & PSA.

So I can say, without a shadow of a doubt that I would be comfortable buying a ILCA of any of them, and that those "9er" people will be striving to minimise variations rather than maximise because that has been truly successful with the 9er programs.    I believe they have been picked, in part, for that reason.

                         jB

 

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1 hour ago, JulianB said:

I have been buying "their shit" on average every month for the last 10 year.

Last import, about a month ago, was well over 1/4 tonne, came in via Cathay Pacific.

Monday, my co-collaborator will be getting about 2kgs (the new project)

In 10 days time, it will be another 20-30kgs.

I always deem it a surprise, because it more often than not, it exceeds expectation.

And I don't buy it because it cost effective, exceedingly timely and fit for purpose,   (which it is)

I buy it because its great, and as said, always exceeds.

But your right, it's not a ILCA, my last boat purchase, was a diesel Ford Territory to tow a Thompson 8, and I am really looking fwd to driving all over Australia sailing it with my mates.    One sail tends not to cut it for me, especially a pin-head!

Sounds like somebody is going to be receiving a 20 ton surprise from China this weekend.


1130672949_ScreenShot2021-05-07at10_37_50PM.thumb.png.265ccf99c1726f16bd3dd76fdae82cef.png
 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/chinese-rocket-debris-set-hit-earth-weekend-no-one-knows-n1266669S

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There is something about an authoritarian government that can will put a citizen in jail on made up charges should they speak poorly about the government.  That will make even a billionaire disappear for a while should they not toe the government's politics.  That will stamp out a pre-existing democracy because such a method of governance challenges their hold on power.  That will throw into internment camps, millions of citizens because they are not of the right ethnicity.  That will force permanent birth control on the female citizens of that ethnicity.  That sometimes makes individuals of the wrong ethnicity just disappear.  That will reach out to what is an independent nation with weapons of war and directly threaten future invasion regardless of the rights and desires of the people of that country.  That ignores internal law and treaties on what bodies of water are and are not under their jurisdiction and again threaten war over it.

You do not have to be xenophobic to find doing business with China unethical.  China's ability to make quality or crap products are not the problem.  The problem is the central government of China and its actions.

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8 minutes ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

There is something about an authoritarian government that can will put a citizen in jail on made up charges should they speak poorly about the government. 

Are you speaking about China or the US or both?

9 minutes ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

You do not have to be xenophobic to find doing business with China unethical.  China's ability to make quality or crap products are not the problem.  The problem is the central government of China and its actions.

In your view, do you think there is a case to not do business with the US on the basis of ethics?

Actually, my country, New Zealand, is not problem free. How about not doing business with New Zealand?

Above, I am being deliberately testy: my questions are designed to promote deeper thinking. 

My preference is to build bridges, rather than promote division. But always speak up in a way that does not promote bigotry or racism. (My tolerance for statements which are textbook bigotry or racism is very low.)

The challenge is about to effect change for the better - China, the US and yes, New Zealand - all have products which are made in a more ethical way than others.

ILCA's approval of Zim, is an example of doing business in China. In my view there will be consequently a growth in sailing ILCA dinghies in China, and greater interactions with Chinese nationals with people from other countries - in a good way! 

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5 hours ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

The problem is the central government of China and its actions.

Hey, we can agree with sober, clear statements. The world did with apartheid era South Africa, and with segregation era USA.

But the xenophobic statements feed the monster of stochastic terrorism: the more people blab "chinese crap", "chinese virus" and that kind of stuff, the more violence you see against anyone who looks asian or is actually chinese.

It's an odd thing but human crowds... pick your words carefully, save lives.

 

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23 hours ago, Wess said:

Hey Simon you forgot to add "who will avoid buying Chinese products."  But again any time you want to buy and tell us about your Chinese ILCA feel free to do so.  Or Martin, or Julian. But I bet you don't put your money where your mouth is.  BTW, I take being insulted by a bunch of morons like you as a compliment! 

And I love it even more because it highlights yet again the path ILCA is on.

Get your Chinese junk here!  Get em while they are wet (and leaky per Robbie)!

Moths to a flame.  Fish in a barrel.  So easy a caveman could do it.  And so much fun.

Talking smack like that just feeds hateful chatter and... people hear normalized hateful chatter, feel authorized to hate, and hate crime rises. A forum full of "chinese crap" blabber ends up in real world violence against someone.

Your caveman references are spot on.

And, not to worry. I've worked in China. I'm not on the market for an ILCA but the boats I own I'm sure have chinese parts. The gopro and speedpuck do. All the computers and electronics as well.

Oh and thank you. Honored to be on the same list as Julian.

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On 5/7/2021 at 5:50 AM, Wess said:

Moths to a flame.  Fish in a barrel.  So easy a caveman could do it.  And so much fun.

I'm thinking a more accurate statement is "flies to shit". I have certainly been guilty of being a fly to a lot of your shit. My bad. 

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On 4/28/2021 at 10:26 PM, WCB said:

Some of my favorite memories was Can Am Sailcraft in Cambridge, MA.

Oh man - every excuse to go to CanAm. At some point they had this single-handed as assym-spin maybe Russian? beautiful machine sitting in the shop and we’d just go drool.

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On 4/26/2021 at 5:25 PM, crashtack said:

I've had the opposite experience with Zims. Their 420s (c and z) are mediocre at best in terms of build quality

I wonder if you could elaborate on this? What is experience? 

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Zim Club 420s and Optis at our club have been very good. 

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On 5/8/2021 at 2:15 AM, Bruce Hudson said:

Are you speaking about China or the US or both?

In your view, do you think there is a case to not do business with the US on the basis of ethics?

Actually, my country, New Zealand, is not problem free. How about not doing business with New Zealand?

Above, I am being deliberately testy: my questions are designed to promote deeper thinking. 

My preference is to build bridges, rather than promote division. But always speak up in a way that does not promote bigotry or racism. (My tolerance for statements which are textbook bigotry or racism is very low.)

The challenge is about to effect change for the better - China, the US and yes, New Zealand - all have products which are made in a more ethical way than others.

ILCA's approval of Zim, is an example of doing business in China. In my view there will be consequently a growth in sailing ILCA dinghies in China, and greater interactions with Chinese nationals with people from other countries - in a good way! 

I am 100% against American adventurism and exceptionalism and in the companies I have help found and the relationships necessary to grow those businesses, there were opportunities that were turned down due to what I viewed as unethical behavior and what I would not support.  Staying far away from the U.Sl Department of Defense during the war in Iraq cost millions.  In the 00's defense money in the DC area sloshed around like a keg of beer.  But not taking those business opportunities and thus supporting illegal wars was the correct action.  I support my country and have helped create hundreds of high paying jobs that pay taxes, I believe that is also patriotism. But I did not support my government when it illegally invaded another country, nor did I support the government during the last four years.

But here's the difference.  I can say almost anything I want about my government.  I can choose to not do business with it.  I can publicly declare that it has acted illegally and should be held to international norms and that the leaders forcing the country into supporting illegal should face jail time.  And I will not be arrested, disappeared, or worse.  Can anyone in China say the same?  There are no internment camps in the U.S. or New Zealand full of people that the government does not like.  Can China say the same?  China is not like most other countries because it is repressive and authoritarian and literally kills its own citizens when they fail to beheace as the government demands. This does not happen in the U.S. or New Zealand.  Our countries have problems, especially the U.S. with our failure to correct centuries of racial hatred, but we are very far from what China is.

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Thats some epic thread drift right there.  I agree with a lot of what you said.  But with all due respect, America has something far worse than internment camps (at least worse than the American west internment camps of the 1940's), and theyre called prisons, including for-profit prisons. I will never sing the praises of America while my brethren are still locked up for years for possessing a harmless herb, for example.  and America also does lock up people up quite often for speaking truth to power– See Florida/Rebekah Jones or Reality Winner.

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19 minutes ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

But here's the difference.  I can say almost anything I want about my government.  I can choose to not do business with it.  I can publicly declare that it has acted illegally and should be held to international norms and that the leaders forcing the country into supporting illegal should face jail time.

Yes, according to the Freedom report the US is near the very top in the world with freedom of expression and information. Only a few countries rate higher.

50 minutes ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

This does not happen in the U.S. or New Zealand.

You have a nice garden and your neighbours do not. Bleating about your neighbour's weeds has what effect? Some neighbours may react by deliberately growing more weeds.

The viewpoint that my garden which has a few weeds and you need to fix yours because it is really weedy is reductionist and in my view ineffective. We all end up talking about talking about pulling each other's weeds - rather than making changes to the design of the garden. (Aka blowing smoke up eachothers' asses.)

The very US viewpoint of criticizing China's domestic policies is somewhat undone by the existence of Guantanamo Bay detention camp the use of drones through to its own struggles with democracy. Technically, you are correct in that the US Government (mostly) does not engage in the same authoritarianism and (mostly) respects international norms within its own borders. Outside its borders, the US is authoritarian, routinely and unilaterally kills people without a trial or due process.

23 minutes ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

China is not like most other countries because it is repressive and authoritarian and literally kills its own citizens when they fail to beheace as the government demands. This does not happen in the U.S. or New Zealand.

China does not have a monopoly on repression, or the taking of people's lives. The cosy club the US and to a lesser extent New Zealand belong to - kill people in other countries in the name of war, more recently in the name of the 'war or terror', and have directly supported the killing by other countries (eg Yemen). Domestically and internationally, the US and NZ both have significant improvements to make.

The quiet revolution that China has been experiencing since Mao's cultural revolution has lead to improvements. Mostly since 1978 with financial reforms (eg the lifting of price controls, 1985), since 2001 with China's entry into the WTO, since 2008, when China first entered into a trade agreement (with NZ), this has accelerated.

The building of bridges had proved to be far more effective than say the post world war two Mccarthyism - playing hardball with a tough nut that China still is has resulted in some very poor outcomes.

Do not mistake the building of bridges as a failure to have a deep commitment against authoritarianism, or as a commitment to freedom.

As such, I am supportive of ILCA's appointing builders in China and Thailand.

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I have no problem buying an ILCA made in China. According to people that actually know what they are talking about, a quality product can be expected. I am sure there are thousands of quality businesses and millions of wonderful people in China. But as a nation? It’s a dumpster fire. It may be crawling out of the dark ages, but the country’s human rights record and ongoing middle-finger to environmental issues are disgusting. No need to come back with “Ya, but what about (insert nation here)”. Most countries have crosses to bear, but not like China. It’ll be shit for decades to come. And ILCAs aren’t being built their because ILCA are “building bridges”.

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5 hours ago, Bill5 said:

And ILCAs aren’t being built their because ILCA are “building bridges”.

Nobody above said that they were.

Yet as a consequence, metaphorical bridges are being built.

5 hours ago, Bill5 said:

But as a nation? It’s a dumpster fire. It may be crawling out of the dark ages, but the country’s human rights record and ongoing middle-finger to environmental issues are disgusting.

Sorry Bill, that is a bit rich, and incorrect about the environmental issues. It is offensive to suggest that China is still crawling out of the dark ages - actually, we all are. The pandemic should be a lesson in humility - particularly for the UK and US - please learn it. Yes, there are human rights issues in China for sure. In my view spitting vitriol won't get you very far.

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3 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Nobody above said that they were.

Yet as a consequence, metaphorical bridges are being built.

Sorry Bill, that is a bit rich, and incorrect about the environmental issues. It is offensive to suggest that China is still crawling out of the dark ages - actually, we all are. The pandemic should be a lesson in humility - particularly for the UK and US - please learn it. Yes, there are human rights issues in China for sure. In my view spitting vitriol won't get you very far.

I am not trying to get very far. Just sharing my thoughts. 

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5 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I am not trying to get very far. Just sharing my thoughts. 

Interesting. Would the US and UK also be considered by you as nations are "dumpster fires" in relation to the pandemic?

'Just' asking a question.

---

(I apologize to everyone other than Bill for any offense caused by adapting Bill's thoughts to ask a question).

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My home country is a dumpster fire in terms of the pandemic. An embarrassment. 

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3 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

My home country is a dumpster fire in terms of the pandemic. An embarrassment. 

I emphatically apologize for any offense caused by my approach above.

(It is painful for me with friends and family being in your metaphorical dumpster fire).

My hope is that much distance is put between humanity and any such metaphorical dumpster fires. The question is equally how to fight fires both present and future.

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Just now, Bruce Hudson said:

I emphatically apologize for any offense caused by my approach above.

(It is painful for me with friends and family being in your metaphorical dumpster fire).

My hope is that much distance is put between humanity and any such metaphorical dumpster fires. The question is equally how to fight fires both present and future.

I am not offended at all! It is what it is. No candy coating. And if it is the turn of phrase that offends, well, that’s your issue.

Let’s talk about Zim ILCAs, of which I would not hesitate to purchase and support my local dealer. No politics in my decision.

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It seems like it is the fundamental nature of the PRC that the policy is Mandarin speaking ethnically Han supremacy. Just look at the dearth of Cantonese language media in the PRC. 

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19 hours ago, Bill5 said:

I have no problem buying an ILCA made in China. According to people that actually know what they are talking about, a quality product can be expected. I am sure there are thousands of quality businesses and millions of wonderful people in China. But as a nation? It’s a dumpster fire. It may be crawling out of the dark ages, but the country’s human rights record and ongoing middle-finger to environmental issues are disgusting. No need to come back with “Ya, but what about (insert nation here)”. Most countries have crosses to bear, but not like China. It’ll be shit for decades to come. And ILCAs aren’t being built their because ILCA are “building bridges”.

As a side note.  Beneteau shut down it's US mfg plant in Marion, SC.  Actually- they announced they were closing it and within weeks it was bought by a fiberglass pool manufacturing company.  Not one job was lost as all employees stayed, (I think they actually added some positions).  

Just goes to show that laying fiberglass is laying fiberglass...

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28 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

As a side note.  Beneteau shut down it's US mfg plant in Marion, SC.  Actually- they announced they were closing it and within weeks it was bought by a fiberglass pool manufacturing company.  Not one job was lost as all employees stayed, (I think they actually added some positions).  

Just goes to show that laying fiberglass is laying fiberglass...

Hot chines on that outdoor jacuzzi...

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

As a side note.  Beneteau shut down it's US mfg plant in Marion, SC.  Actually- they announced they were closing it and within weeks it was bought by a fiberglass pool manufacturing company.  Not one job was lost as all employees stayed, (I think they actually added some positions).  

Just goes to show that laying fiberglass is laying fiberglass...

Maybe you can persuade them to build ILCAs?

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On 5/7/2021 at 10:08 AM, Xeon said:

A caveman IS doing it :D

That one got a laugh out of me for sure.  Nice job.

On 5/7/2021 at 9:37 PM, JulianB said:

I have been buying "their shit" on average every month for the last 10 year.

Last import, about a month ago, was well over 1/4 tonne, came in via Cathay Pacific.

Monday, my co-collaborator will be getting about 2kgs (the new project)

In 10 days time, it will be another 20-30kgs.

I always deem it a surprise, because it more often than not, it exceeds expectation.

And I don't buy it because it cost effective, exceedingly timely and fit for purpose,   (which it is)

I buy it because its great, and as said, always exceeds.

But your right, it's not a ILCA, my last boat purchase, was a diesel Ford Territory to tow a Thompson 8, and I am really looking fwd to driving all over Australia sailing it with my mates.    One sail tends not to cut it for me, especially a pin-head!

So we at least share the more than one sail thing... more than one hull too LOL.  We just happen to disagree re new rigs for Lasers and Chinese commodity products and the political system from which they are generated).

22 hours ago, Alan Crawford said:

FIFY :D

That one got a laugh out of me too.  I indeed would have purchased from them - or Fulcrum - if they had produced Lasers.  I buy local, non-corporate USA whenever possible. And China last. Period.

And so many Saturday and Sunday posts; damn!  Don't you guys sail?  Have a life???  I mean SA is a fun comedic diversion during a workday but beyond that??

And in conclusion have ANY of you bought a Chinese ILCA yet (and not found anything wrong with it)?  Anyone??

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

I mean SA is a fun comedic diversion during a workday but beyond that??

Yes, making statements that can only be described as bigotry is 'fun' in the world of Wess, and Wess call that 'a bit of fun' is repugnant.

 

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I don't know, I think there is a kind of bigotry of low expectations with the PRC. The other China as in Taiwan has gone from fascist dictatorship to liberal democracy but still gets treated as a pariah nation. 

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Beside all the similar experience (I imported some stuff I invented from China), I have just one example which may educate. It is proof positive of Chinese superiority. Yes, y'all heard that right. It's as if you never listen to the radio and hear the interview with the midwest machine shops looking for employees - where 1/2 of them fail drug tests!  Once you get past the meth and not showing up and lack of a work ethic (here), then you have to get to the normal stuff like how good they are at their job! 

Let's not act as if the American mid-level factory worker is of some kind of super high quality.

My more recent intimate involvement with Chinese brilliance was in the Drone (consumer flying camera) business. A one person startup there - 100% Chinese - became a multi-billion dollar international company that is so far ahead of the USA/Europe, etc. that we cannot even compare them. I watched as some Silicon Valley bros along with 120 million in free money (from well known VC's) claimed they could make something competitive. I could write a book on it - but suffice it to say more of that money went up their noses than into a decent product - it failed in every possible way...so badly that I cannot think of anything to compare it to. A couple other American companies (GoPro) gave it a shot - same deal, "bros" talking in another language (Bro English) and telling us how they were going to do it. Complete fail. The "hip" American company did all the wrong things - lied, misled, conned, faked - you know, the (current) American Way!

These are technically complicated products. A Pentagon connection told me "We couldn't build these for 5 million dollars each" - he was speaking about a $1K drone. He was also telling the truth. We're not talking one-off luck. Product after product, year after year - as close to perfection as one can imagine and, along with that, taking and implementing feedback like I've never seen in any American company. 

Long story - not sailboats, but stuff that flies. Likely the most technical consumer product in existence. The stuff is so near-perfect that they should put them in a Museum.  Oh, not a single American in the C-Suite - English not spoken here. 

I consider myself lucky to have seen and watched all this in real time as I wrote books about the products and ran a large web site - did reviews and met a lot of the people associated with the enterprise. 70 hour weeks - 4am in the morning meetings if something needed done on deadline, CEO has a cot in his office - AND, a sign on the door that people without brain (most) can't come in. 

The single "Truth" in the "Chinese shit" narrative is that they truly WILL make terrible shit if you want them to (some of them). The one time that I got screwed on horrible product from China was when I worked 100% through an American Agent. When I worked directly with a factory the stuff was perfect. That's an interesting aside since I am not an engineer, designer, QA person or any of that. It was simply a matter of proper communication and not trying to screw people (as it turned out my American Agent was in the business of doing). Oh, well - 100K or more down the toilet. Aluminum castings with Bondo filler. 

Some of you desperately need to read some books. May I suggest Glass House? The Reckoning?

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2 hours ago, spankoka said:

I don't know, I think there is a kind of bigotry of low expectations with the PRC. The other China as in Taiwan has gone from fascist dictatorship to liberal democracy but still gets treated as a pariah nation. 

Taiwan went up the chain higher (quality, technicality) IMHO - aren't the largest and most complicated IC Fabs in the world located there? If we consider that they are the same people...which they are! Example - Mitch McConnell wife...her family is in Chinese steel, banking, shipping and government connected. In China - and Taiwan. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foremost_Group

You really can't separate the two if we are talking about some of the core people - the intelligence and, IMHO, the ideals which make their "miracles" (getting 800 million out of poverty) possible. It's not the form of Government that does that! It's ambition, work ethic, lack of being spoiled and jaded. My theory, which many might dispute, is that their lack of Fundamentalist Religion (based) and the Buddhist/Confucius foundation is superior to the current craziness of much of the rest of the world.

It means they at least start from a position of logic and reason - and true honoring of their parents and such, rather than all the strange stories many over this way base life upon (from Greed is Good to We Come from Aliens to the World being 6,000 years old and ending tomorrow). 

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Not so good for the Uighur population being re-educated though. Or the people of Hong Kong having the liberties reduced.  Or those who speak out against the Chinese govt. 

If I want a watch I buy Swiss.  If I want a car I buy German (or Korean).  If I want a handbag I buy Italian.  If I want chocolate I buy Belgian.  If I want whisky I buy Scottish.  If I want a boat I buy Ovi.  I can’t think of much I would chose to buy from the US or from China because of their exceptional quality or reputation.

I’m sure there are good Chinese manufacturers and ZIM may be one of them but why take the risk over a boat that has had reported build quality problems and that is available elsewhere from highly reputable, sailor led businesses with proven track records and almost certainly better HSE and employee rights records. 

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5 hours ago, Board skiff said:

 

If I want a watch I buy Swiss.  If I want a car I buy German (or Korean).  If I want a handbag I buy Italian.  If I want chocolate I buy Belgian.  If I want whisky I buy Scottish.  If I want a boat I buy Ovi.  I can’t think of much I would chose to buy from the US or from China because of their exceptional quality or reputation.

I’m sure there are good Chinese manufacturers and ZIM may be one of them but why take the risk over a boat that has had reported build quality problems and that is available elsewhere from highly reputable, sailor led businesses with proven track records and almost certainly better HSE and employee rights records. 

I am sure there are good English manufacturers and Ovington may be one of them, but why take the risk when the Laser builder with the worst track record for service and quality was a company based in England, owned by a non-sailor... especially when the boat is available elsewhere from a highly reputable, sailor led business with a proven track record like Zou Inter Marine?
 

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5 hours ago, Board skiff said:

Not so good for the Uighur population being re-educated though. Or the people of Hong Kong having the liberties reduced.  Or those who speak out against the Chinese govt. 

If I want a watch I buy Swiss.  If I want a car I buy German (or Korean).  If I want a handbag I buy Italian.  If I want chocolate I buy Belgian.  If I want whisky I buy Scottish.  If I want a boat I buy Ovi.  I can’t think of much I would chose to buy from the US or from China because of their exceptional quality or reputation.

I’m sure there are good Chinese manufacturers and ZIM may be one of them but why take the risk over a boat that has had reported build quality problems and that is available elsewhere from highly reputable, sailor led businesses with proven track records and almost certainly better HSE and employee rights records. 

I like to support the local dealer. He will have a stock of boats - ZIMs - for the first time in years. I can look at it before I buy it to check for issues. I can measure rake and even weigh it if I really want. If it leaks, I can take it back. I see the three major Canadian dinghy dealers are all selling ZIMs. At our club we have several ZIM 420s and Optis. No problems. 
I drive a GM truck, when I wear a watch it is a Timex Marathon, I don’t have a handbag, and there is a brilliant chocolatier here. I do prefer scotch to bourbon or rye but that is based on taste, not quality. Great local beer.

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22 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

I like to support the local dealer. He will have a stock of boats - ZIMs - for the first time in years. I can look at it before I buy it to check for issues. I can measure rake and even weigh it if I really want. If it leaks, I can take it back. I see the three major Canadian dinghy dealers are all selling ZIMs. At our club we have several ZIM 420s and Optis. No problems. 
I drive a GM truck, when I wear a watch it is a Timex Marathon, I don’t have a handbag, and there is a brilliant chocolatier here. I do prefer scotch to bourbon or rye but that is based on taste, not quality. Great local beer.

That's a good reason to buy a Zim ILCA too. Always support your local dealer, people.

Rule 27.  http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2012/04/laser-sailing-rules.html

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2 hours ago, Board skiff said:

Really?:huh:

Yep. Probably 40 local craft brewers in city of 1.3 mill. And some really good ones in the Rockies. We have great barley and water in this part of the world.

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7 hours ago, Bill5 said:

Yep. Probably 40 local craft brewers in city of 1.3 mill. And some really good ones in the Rockies. We have great barley and water in this part of the world.

It's a little known fact that the craft beer scene in China is booming. 

Wuhan, Chengdu, and Xi’an have thriving craft scenes, and productive breweries are popping up in places as far flung as Kunming  and Guiyang. 

 

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24 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Probably. Who isn't?

LPE and The Laser Class! 

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On 4/26/2021 at 5:25 PM, crashtack said:

I've had the opposite experience with Zims. Their 420s (c and z) are mediocre at best in terms of build quality

They don't make a Z420... so... you've placed yourself right out of this conversation. They make an 420E and C420.
How's that Ford Carolla treating you?
 

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