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505 Rigging / Cockpit Setup


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In a moment of delusion (or giddy anticipation), I bought a stripped 505 hull and a bunch of parts plus spars and sails recently. The boat was commented here, I noticed, before signing up. Sailed them and all kinds of other stuff when a youth and always had a soft spot for the 505.

I'm slowly doping out how it was rigged and am using that as a guideline. Won't be racing it, just fun going fast and getting wet from time to time. Came with an older mast ram (probably won't use - blocks instead), and a lever vang which I will use for now. Forestay is in the jib luff and for simplicity, will stick with it, but looking for ideas on mechanical advantage for that. Also has a jib furler, which I found interesting...will use it until I hate it or love it. Planning on jib twings, main cunningham, most of the basics for the kite (single pole) and other trim. Probably not jib sheet tracks and a lot of the other goodies that the race set use. Have been mining the interwebs for cockpit photos, but many are serious overkill for my purpose.

One thing I've not doped out yet are the rectangular inletted slots in the tanks just forward of the cross brace. I presume they may have been intended as seats for a steel or aluminum arched bar to seat some of the cam cleats and leads?

Request: Show me your cockpits, folk. I want inspiration and knowledge!

Thankee

US 5973, but maybe built in the UK

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At least you have holes to show you where things need to go.  The P.O. of my boat made repairs all around the mast step, filling in and glassing over all screw holes, so I had to route things based on intuition and am still figuring things out.  IMG_6990.thumb.JPG.ec47dcefb0596c6788b2b8ef11eceee4.JPG

This is a 'before' shot of the forward bulkhead, showing the spinnaker tube to port and the access hole to starboard.  The mast step/keelson(?) now serves as a base for the shroud tensioning tackles.GDJV8085.thumb.JPG.64b9d0447353fc0a903e9f2f71342bc0.JPG

This is a good shot showing the top of the CB trunk and all the stuff on it: Board up & down, ram (not yet installed) up/down, topping lift (I think) and spinnaker halyard. Vang goes to tanks P & S.   Next photo is too big to post.  Will try to get cover off and take some more tomorrow that show better detail. (Rain today here.)  Etoile is a Parker, US 8172.  We have the forestay/jib halyard setup, but with tack forward, which makes spinnaker launch & retrieval interesting sometimes.

 

 

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3 hours ago, PaulK said:

At least you have holes to show you where things need to go.  The P.O. of my boat made repairs all around the mast step, filling in and glassing over all screw holes, so I had to route things based on intuition and am still figuring things out.  IMG_6990.thumb.JPG.ec47dcefb0596c6788b2b8ef11eceee4.JPG

This is a 'before' shot of the forward bulkhead, showing the spinnaker tube to port and the access hole to starboard.  The mast step/keelson(?) now serves as a base for the shroud tensioning tackles.GDJV8085.thumb.JPG.64b9d0447353fc0a903e9f2f71342bc0.JPG

This is a good shot showing the top of the CB trunk and all the stuff on it: Board up & down, ram (not yet installed) up/down, topping lift (I think) and spinnaker halyard. Vang goes to tanks P & S.   Next photo is too big to post.  Will try to get cover off and take some more tomorrow that show better detail. (Rain today here.)  Etoile is a Parker, US 8172.  We have the forestay/jib halyard setup, but with tack forward, which makes spinnaker launch & retrieval interesting sometimes.

 

 

Ouch on the before pic! There is a lot of work to do in there and no trained monkeys available, right? That's a help, thanks.

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2 hours ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

Great set of pics. I particularly appreciate the contrast between the minimalist rig of the older boat and the top of the class race rig. Whoever did the labeling on the last photo, well bless their heart! In some cockpits, my eyes glaze over just trying to follow the lines and associate their function. I'm kind of leaning to the Old School, tuned down and simplified to begin with, but I don't want to preclude upscaling later. Thanks!

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There are many good diagrams here: https://www.forumvoile.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=8000. , a French dinghy site. They were helpful setting up my boat. Each boat is different, based not only on the builder and design but on the skipper's and crew's needs and abilities.  Twin automatic poles are the cat's meow.

 

 

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18 hours ago, PaulK said:

There are many good diagrams here: https://www.forumvoile.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=8000. , a French dinghy site. They were helpful setting up my boat. Each boat is different, based not only on the builder and design but on the skipper's and crew's needs and abilities.  Twin automatic poles are the cat's meow.

 

 

Thank you! That was very useful and a nice, clean setup. Thank goodness for Google Translate, though some were a bit odd ;~) Lots of good ideas. Question: Are the multpliers along the starboard side of the centerboard trunk your forestay tension? Looks very convenient for that use.

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I'm now starting to think that the inletted slots on my tanks just forward of the crossbrace are actually for platforms to mount the cleats for the spinnaker sheets.

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On my first 505, I tried blocks instead of a ram.  The power loss was substantial as you watch the mast flex where the ram would be and above.  Very much recommend a ram however primitive.  Also rig the higher spin hoist if it isn't already like that for the 90s / 2000s plus era kites as performance really improves.

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1 minute ago, Lost in Translation said:

On my first 505, I tried blocks instead of a ram.  The power loss was substantial as you watch the mast flex where the ram would be and above.  Very much recommend a ram however primitive.  Also rig the higher spin hoist if it isn't already like that for the 90s / 2000s plus era kites as performance really improves.

I'm sure that's true and mine did come with a ram which I'm holding in reserve once I get it in the water for trials. I probably neglected to mention that I'm married to my VERY green crew, so tuning down is important for everyone's satisfaction and mental health.:D Attorneys are expensive...

The two I sailed in back in the early 70's had blocks, if I recall correctly, but that was a long time ago!

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Took some pix this afternoon:

IMG_3936.thumb.JPG.c0f2c02636577a60236971914cf43ecb.JPG

This is the mast step area now.  Tackles at the bulkhead are for shroud tension.  I read that blocks bolted to the bulkhead itself tended to distort it or pull out, so I fashioned a SS bracket that screws into the top of the keelson(?) that the mast is stepped on.  The cheek blocks turn the controls for the ram and other things aft to run back to the top of the CB trunk.  The yellow line is the vang.  

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IMG_3941.thumb.JPG.fc51fa048cccecfc3cbaaa8c88e540df.JPG

Still need a bit more finishing up on the double automatic poles.  The blue shock cord brings the pole(s) back alongside the boom then the launcher line (in the swivel cleat at the partners) is released.  The block on the boom near the main tack point keeps the pole (theoretically) from spearing anyone or taking out an eye when it flies back alongside the boom. The blue line through the friction ring attached to the pole is the spinnaker guy.  The ram controls are not attached in this photo.

 

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IMG_3939.thumb.JPG.f6d253dff43d709f5a8a393faf91847f.JPG

The CB up line is cleated in the spinnaker sheet cleat temporarily.  We don't want to cut furrows in the driveway with the CB.

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IMG_3938.thumb.JPG.8d07d14dcd2ae5c7c8e1c54b3af63fa9.JPG

This shows the aft end of the CB trunk, with the various controls labeled.  These are the lines that come back from the cheek blocks by the mast step.  Sorry it's upside down. The little 'flip' blocks allow you to pull straight up to make big adjustments (like hoisting the spinnaker) much more rapidly, or to pull in while sitting on the tanks, rather than having to get into the centerline.

 

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IMG_3937.thumb.JPG.8687b0754947050fa6de1462f206cbb4.JPG

This is a better shot of the forward part of the CB trunk, with labels on the different controls. The CB up line is cleated in a cam that is supposed to be for the spinnaker sheets.  They run through the rachet block dangling on the tank.  The jib sheets run through the cheek block on the tank above inspection port and then to the cam on the thwart.  The yellow line it the vang.  Hope all this helps. 

 

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@DickTheDog the minimalist rigging is usually associated with North American rigging and the more complicated is the European style.  They're both fun in their own ways.  When I built a couple of hulls twenty years ago, we went very clean and minimal.  It's a bit tougher to do that now with the double pole system but I've heard it's worth it.  

Always start with the core controls.  Jib sheets, vang, cunningham, outhaul, mainsheet and then start to work into the other systems.  With a green crew, definitely work on two systems; mast rake and put the reefing system into your boom.  The mast rake so you can depower of course and the reefing system to allow ease of maneuvers with that rake.  

Ask lots of questions as the 505 people are some of the best out there and they'll help.  They have also broken everything and can help you to avoid some of those breakdowns.  i.e. if you move the spin halyard up to the new max hoist location, you also need to either add higher trapeze attachment points or a second set of spreaders...etc., something to balance that pull up higher on the mast.  

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9 hours ago, WCB said:

@DickTheDog 

Ask lots of questions as the 505 people are some of the best out there and they'll help.  They have also broken everything and can help you to avoid some of those breakdowns.  i.e. if you move the spin halyard up to the new max hoist location, you also need to either add higher trapeze attachment points or a second set of spreaders...etc., something to balance that pull up higher on the mast.  

The P.O. of my boat broke his mast and purchased a replacement one with adjustable upper/lower trapeze heights. Finding room and clear passages for the new controls and for things that came off the mast in different places from the previous one was a challenge. I tried to create as many simple options as possible and drew out scaled plans before drilling any holes.

 

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16 hours ago, thengling said:

some good ideas at this anarchy:

 

Yes, I'd seen that before. Lots of interesting nuggets, thanks!

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15 hours ago, PaulK said:

IMG_3937.thumb.JPG.8687b0754947050fa6de1462f206cbb4.JPG

This is a better shot of the forward part of the CB trunk, with labels on the different controls. The CB up line is cleated in a cam that is supposed to be for the spinnaker sheets.  They run through the rachet block dangling on the tank.  The jib sheets run through the cheek block on the tank above inspection port and then to the cam on the thwart.  The yellow line it the vang.  Hope all this helps. 

 

PaulK: Treasure trove and very much appreciated!

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21 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

On my first 505, I tried blocks instead of a ram.  The power loss was substantial as you watch the mast flex where the ram would be and above.  Very much recommend a ram however primitive.  Also rig the higher spin hoist if it isn't already like that for the 90s / 2000s plus era kites as performance really improves.

OK, you've ALMOST got me convinced! I do so hate drilling holes in a perfectly good deck though, to be honest, they were there before and just filled in...:unsure:

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6 hours ago, DickTheDog said:

OK, you've ALMOST got me convinced! I do so hate drilling holes in a perfectly good deck though, to be honest, they were there before and just filled in...:unsure:

I cut down a broken 420 spinnaker pole for my ram and used aluminum L-bar from Home Depot for the deck fittings.  I did have to buy a fitting to attach it to the mast.IMG_3940.thumb.JPG.e973767303b2ae791bfe277ff287eb6e.JPG

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58 minutes ago, DickTheDog said:

Question:

Rachet blocks for jib sheets, yea or nay?

Harken ratchamatics...that's the way to go

If you need a ram tube, I think that I still have a used Waterat aluminum available.  I bought the carbon one.  I may have a brand new carbon one too.

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2 hours ago, WCB said:

Harken ratchamatics...that's the way to go

If you need a ram tube, I think that I still have a used Waterat aluminum available.  I bought the carbon one.  I may have a brand new carbon one too.

I actually have a ram that came with the boat and based on your and other comments, I'm gonna use it. Thanks!

I was planning on ratchet blocks and was interested to see if anyone came back and said, 'Nah'.

While I'm at it, my mainsheet blocks look to be for 3/8" line. Planning on using the same for jib sheets. Haven't gotten as far as spinnaker sheets, but looks to be 5/16" blocks. Sound right?

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Some people splice thicker line or sew covers onto the ends of the sheets so the thin stuff that gets attached to the sail doesn't cut into their hands so much.  The big spinnakers can really pull. 

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I have 5/16" for the MS mainly for grip. Tapered down to 1/8" for the bridle.

1/4" or 3/16" I think for the jib. No ratchets on the jib, Ratchamatic on the Main and spin sheets. 

Spin sheets are 9mm tapered and then spliced into 4mm dyneema at the end. Guys are 3mm dyneema. Experimented with 2.5mm dyneema on the guys, but they melted at the end, made getting the spin off difficult and were hard on the hands when sit running. But didn't drag the chute down in really light stuff. 

Most of the lines are Marstrom Excel racing. Main is Robline (don't remember which one but has really soft and grippy cover. 

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40 minutes ago, Locus said:

I have 5/16" for the MS mainly for grip. Tapered down to 1/8" for the bridle.

1/4" or 3/16" I think for the jib. No ratchets on the jib, Ratchamatic on the Main and spin sheets. 

Spin sheets are 9mm tapered and then spliced into 4mm dyneema at the end. Guys are 3mm dyneema. Experimented with 2.5mm dyneema on the guys, but they melted at the end, made getting the spin off difficult and were hard on the hands when sit running. But didn't drag the chute down in really light stuff. 

Most of the lines are Marstrom Excel racing. Main is Robline (don't remember which one but has really soft and grippy cover. 

Thanks, very interesting and unexpected. Friday I'm off to pick up some blocks, line and miscellaneous. BTW, is there a PNW group here or on FB? Will be heading to Shilshole soon to examine folks' setups; never been there - are there entry protocols to CYC, etc.?

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7 hours ago, DickTheDog said:

Thanks, very interesting and unexpected. Friday I'm off to pick up some blocks, line and miscellaneous. BTW, is there a PNW group here or on FB? Will be heading to Shilshole soon to examine folks' setups; never been there - are there entry protocols to CYC, etc.?

You should also reach out to Ryan at Rogue Rigging.  He's in Cali and he sails 505s and does custom rigging.  A lot of what you're looking for he can do for you like a split bridle mainsheet, jib sheets...etc.  He's active in the class so he'll have an idea of what to use and he's pretty fast too with his work.  I've always been impressed.  I need to order the trap twing set up from him but I just sold my new Superstar M2 so I'll have to wait until I get a new one.

https://www.roguerigging.com 

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There are a few 505s in dry storage at Shilshole. Mine is usually there but working on it in the garage. Should be down there in a couple weeks. 

The PNW Group is on Google Groups. I can invite you if you PM you email. 

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On 5/1/2021 at 9:22 AM, PaulK said:

The P.O. of my boat broke his mast and purchased a replacement one with adjustable upper/lower trapeze heights. Finding room and clear passages for the new controls and for things that came off the mast in different places from the previous one was a challenge. I tried to create as many simple options as possible and drew out scaled plans before drilling any holes.

 

Upper and lower trapeze points are necessary if you're sailing in any breeze.  Use the uppers downwind so the crew's weight counteracts the kite and helps prevent the mast from inverting. Use the lowers going upwind. There are a few different systems out there to accomplish this. If you stay on the uppers going upwind  and stuff the bow the mast can break. Same going downwind on the lowers.

Most people have converted to making this happen automatically when the spinnaker is raised the trap goes to the uppers and when lowered to the lowers.

If you have an old small kite where the halyard enters just above the hounds it isn't necessary but I haven't seen one rigged like that since I started sailing 505's 16 years ago.

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We have somethin similar on our AC's, upper shrouds come on when big kite raised, no mast problems. 

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Simplest way is to eyestrap to the upper location and run twings out the old t ball locations. Have to remember to put them on at the leeward mark and off at windward but they work and are cheap

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On 5/8/2021 at 8:55 PM, Locus said:

Simplest way is to eyestrap to the upper location and run twings out the old t ball locations. Have to remember to put them on at the leeward mark and off at windward but they work and are cheap

I like!

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The auto system uses a ball on the spin halyard which goes up with the halyard and pulls the upper trap up taking tension off the lowers. You can use the old spin halyard sheave or an external block riveted to the mast

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On 5/7/2021 at 2:47 AM, Locus said:

I have 5/16" for the MS mainly for grip. Tapered down to 1/8" for the bridle.

1/4" or 3/16" I think for the jib. No ratchets on the jib, Ratchamatic on the Main and spin sheets. 

Spin sheets are 9mm tapered and then spliced into 4mm dyneema at the end. Guys are 3mm dyneema. Experimented with 2.5mm dyneema on the guys, but they melted at the end, made getting the spin off difficult and were hard on the hands when sit running. But didn't drag the chute down in really light stuff. 

Most of the lines are Marstrom Excel racing. Main is Robline (don't remember which one but has really soft and grippy cover. 

top guys use 1 ratchet on the jib now, to get the perfect angle.

 

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