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Rules Q.. whisker pole to leeward


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If I remember old rules correctly it was not legal to push the clue of a headsail out to leeward with a pole.  Has that changed?  Fro 2021 to 2024 rules:

55.3 Sheeting Sails

No sail shall be sheeted over or through any device that exerts outward pressure on a sheet or clew of a sail at a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall outside the hull or deck, except: (a) a headsail clew may be connected (as defined in The Equipment Rules of Sailing) to a whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set; (b) any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used for a sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of the sail is set; (c) a headsail may be sheeted to its own boom that requires no adjustment when tacking; and (d) the boom of a sail may be sheeted to a bumkin.

 

Sounds like it is NOT restricted to push the jib clue out to leeward with a pole, no?  

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Using a pole to sheet a headsail further to leeward -- away from the main -- used to be called an "outrigger" in the rules and it was explicitly illegal.

The last Volvo Around the World Race, outriggers were used extensively while reaching. I'm not curious enough to exert the effort or research if the prohibition was removed from the RRS or if the SIs changed the RRS in regard to outriggers.

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1 hour ago, Somebody Else said:

Using a pole to sheet a headsail further to leeward -- away from the main -- used to be called an "outrigger" in the rules and it was explicitly illegal.

The last Volvo Around the World Race, outriggers were used extensively while reaching. I'm not curious enough to exert the effort or research if the prohibition was removed from the RRS or if the SIs changed the RRS in regard to outriggers.

VOR SIs allowed it

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Hmmm, it's okay if it's attached to the mast and no spin AFIK??? 

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2 hours ago, bgytr said:

If I remember old rules correctly it was not legal to push the clue of a headsail out to leeward with a pole.  Has that changed?  Fro 2021 to 2024 rules:

55.3 Sheeting Sails

No sail shall be sheeted over or through any device that exerts outward pressure on a sheet or clew of a sail at a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall outside the hull or deck, except: (a) a headsail clew may be connected (as defined in The Equipment Rules of Sailing) to a whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set; (b) any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used for a sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of the sail is set; (c) a headsail may be sheeted to its own boom that requires no adjustment when tacking; and (d) the boom of a sail may be sheeted to a bumkin.

 

Sounds like it is NOT restricted to push the jib clue out to leeward with a pole, no?  

Two parts of the rule to look at.

RRS55.2 Only one whisker pole or spinnaker pole at a time and it SHALL be attached to the forward mast

&

RRS55.3(a) a headsail clew may be connected to a whisker pole.

There appears to be no restriction as to which direction (windward or leeward) that the whisker pole is pointing in

So as long as the whisker pole is a) attached to the foremost mast; b) no other pole is attached at the same time then the clew of a headsail could be attached to it.

What the rule DOESN'T say is that you can run the headsail sheet through the whisker pole. It is quite specific that it is the clew of the headsail that is attached.

 

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23 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

What the rule DOESN'T say is that you can run the headsail sheet through the whisker pole. It is quite specific that it is the clew of the headsail that is attached.

are you sure about that? (I'm not saying you aren't)

Quote

55.3 a) a headsail clew may be connected (as defined in The Equipment Rules of Sailing) to a whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set;

The Equipment Rules of Sailing do not have the word "connected" in them anywhere. "Attached" appears 35 times, but why would "attaching" the clew of a headsail be any different than "attaching" the clew of a spinnaker to a spin pole?

It's infuriating when these documents don't link the way they are written. 

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5 hours ago, ryley said:

are you sure about that? (I'm not saying you aren't)

The Equipment Rules of Sailing do not have the word "connected" in them anywhere. "Attached" appears 35 times, but why would "attaching" the clew of a headsail be any different than "attaching" the clew of a spinnaker to a spin pole?

It's infuriating when these documents don't link the way they are written. 

Yep - quite sure!

I am only quoting what the Rule  says. It specifically states that - well read RRS 55.3(a) in conjunction with (from the INTRODCUTION/Terminology at the start of the RRS Book) "Other words and terms are used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use".

With that in mind, connect means "bring together so as to establish a link" SO 55.3 (a) clearly states that the clew is attached (connected) to the whisker pole which is attached to the mast.

In the ERS under definitions, a whisker pole is defined as being attached to both the mast and the headsail clew.

Attaching a whisker pole usually is at the headsail clew, I remember from my Enterprise days (45-50+ years ago). 

A spinnaker pole is not generally "attached" to the clew of a spinnaker but rather the spinnaker guy runs through the fitting at the end of a spinnaker pole (but I'm sure you knew that) and you will note from the ERS that the spinnaker pole is only stated as "attached to the mast spar to set the spinnaker". It doesn't actually define the spinnaker pole as "Attached" to the spinnaker at all. 

So the why in your question is quite simple - because they (spinnaker and whisker) are used differently with different definitions.

As far as connected/attached is concerned? Both have the same "sense ordinarily used in general usage".

Hope this helps

SS

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Late 90s, I remember of a big boat that got disqualified because the bow team took forever to do a 2 poles gybe (probably some numpty set the new sheet under the old pole and wondered why it wouldn't go down)!

BTW, is the 2 poles gybe still allowed? ISTR that in the rules there was something about one pole underway so that the transient state of 2 poles up during a gybe was OK but looking at how it is phrased now, I am not sure.

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28 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Late 90s, I remember of a big boat that got disqualified because the bow team took forever to do a 2 poles gybe (probably some numpty set the new sheet under the old pole and wondered why it wouldn't go down)!

BTW, is the 2 poles gybe still allowed? ISTR that in the rules there was something about one pole underway so that the transient state of 2 poles up during a gybe was OK but looking at how it is phrased now, I am not sure.

2 poles are allowed while gybing:

55.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles

Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

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4 minutes ago, bgytr said:

2 poles are allowed while gybing:

55.2 Spinnaker Poles; Whisker Poles

Only one spinnaker pole or whisker pole shall be used at a time except when gybing. When in use, it shall be attached to the foremost mast.

I should have read more carefully... Bowmen operating on old Swans would not have liked this!

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56 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Yep - quite sure!

I am only quoting what the Rule  says. It specifically states that - well read RRS 55.3(a) in conjunction with (from the INTRODCUTION/Terminology at the start of the RRS Book) "Other words and terms are used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use".

With that in mind, connect means "bring together so as to establish a link" SO 55.3 (a) clearly states that the clew is attached (connected) to the whisker pole which is attached to the mast.

In the ERS under definitions, a whisker pole is defined as being attached to both the mast and the headsail clew.

Attaching a whisker pole usually is at the headsail clew, I remember from my Enterprise days (45-50+ years ago). 

A spinnaker pole is not generally "attached" to the clew of a spinnaker but rather the spinnaker guy runs through the fitting at the end of a spinnaker pole (but I'm sure you knew that) and you will note from the ERS that the spinnaker pole is only stated as "attached to the mast spar to set the spinnaker". It doesn't actually define the spinnaker pole as "Attached" to the spinnaker at all. 

So the why in your question is quite simple - because they (spinnaker and whisker) are used differently with different definitions.

As far as connected/attached is concerned? Both have the same "sense ordinarily used in general usage".

Hope this helps

SS

So is this discussion about the legality of a whisker pole on a jib with either the jib sheet running through the pole jaws or the jib clew ring or loop being connected to the pole jaws?  If so, I find it nearly impossible to believe that the intent of the rule would be to demand that the clew ring of the sail be connected to the pole piston vs running the jib sheet through the jaws.  Why would that be the case?  First it would offer no real advantage.  Second, you be much more likely to damage the clew of the sail with the pole piston going through the clew ring or loop, especially a loop.

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2 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Yes there was a specific rule change which allowed it, or rather a prohibition was removed. I can't remember the exact edition, it was about 15 years ago.

Ya that's the way I read it now, there does not seem to be any restriction as to which side the pole is on.

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26 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Yep, as a result of that rule change the dinghy class I sail had some fairly rapid development. We now use a jib stick to leward to open the slot and control twist and depth in the jib.

image.png.47cf94d8c3ca5e1bb376aa3850fd35a0.png

Cool

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1 hour ago, European Bloke said:

Yep, as a result of that rule change the dinghy class I sail had some fairly rapid development. We now use a jib stick to leward to open the slot and control twist and depth in the jib.

image.png.47cf94d8c3ca5e1bb376aa3850fd35a0.png

Thayas firstcthing i thought of in this thread." Wait---the merlinrocket"

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18 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Thayas firstcthing i thought of in this thread." Wait---the merlinrocket"

That's actually a National 12, a bit like a baby Merlin but much lighter, with no kite, and no fake clinker. Several designers have had success in both classes.

With the kite the Merlin can't use a jib stick. I think they use barberhaulers, which is what we used to do until the jib stick was developed to be adjustable and work to leward.

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13 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

That's actually a National 12, a bit like a baby Merlin but much lighter, with no kite, and no fake clinker. Several designers have had success in both classes.

With the kite the Merlin can't use a jib stick. I think they use barberhaulers, which is what we used to do until the jib stick was developed to be adjustable and work to leward.

Oh! Thanks for clarification.

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2 hours ago, bgytr said:

So is this discussion about the legality of a whisker pole on a jib with either the jib sheet running through the pole jaws or the jib clew ring or loop being connected to the pole jaws?  If so, I find it nearly impossible to believe that the intent of the rule would be to demand that the clew ring of the sail be connected to the pole piston vs running the jib sheet through the jaws.  Why would that be the case?  First it would offer no real advantage.  Second, you be much more likely to damage the clew of the sail with the pole piston going through the clew ring or loop, especially a loop.

2 Points bgytr

1. I am just quoting what the rule says. IT DOES NOT SAY the sheet may be connected to the whisker pole. IT DOES SAY the CLEW may be connected to whisker pole.

I suspect this rule was/is written primarily with dinghies in mind where the whisker pole or jib stick does not end in a pole piston but a 'pin'. It is held in place by the tension on the jib sheet. Most bigger boats only have a spinnaker pole which would likely be too long to be any use deployed to leeward  on a genoa

2. You could always put the 'pole piston through the bowline attaching the sheet to the sail. I think the intent of the rule is to prevent people having the ability to feed the sheet and therefore adjust the angle fo the sail using a substitute outrigger.

In fact 55.3 itself states such an arrangement is illegal "No sail shall be sheeted over or through a device that exerts outward pressure yada yada yada.

For the avoidance of doubt, a spinnaker pole set in the normal manner does not break the rule because it is acting on the spinnaker guy and not the spinnaker sheet.

Attached is a picture of a standard dinghy whisker pole or jib stick434881456_Enterprisejibstickorwhiskerpole.jpg.3971f817395f8055ee4ed15e6cdaeac3.jpg

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3 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Yep, as a result of that rule change the dinghy class I sail had some fairly rapid development. We now use a jib stick to leward to open the slot and control twist and depth in the jib.

image.png.47cf94d8c3ca5e1bb376aa3850fd35a0.png

Does the pole stay attached during tacks ?

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13 hours ago, ryley said:

are you sure about that? (I'm not saying you aren't)

The Equipment Rules of Sailing do not have the word "connected" in them anywhere. "Attached" appears 35 times, but why would "attaching" the clew of a headsail be any different than "attaching" the clew of a spinnaker to a spin pole?

It's infuriating when these documents don't link the way they are written. 

One of the changes made in the 2021-2024 ERS was changing most instances of "attach" to "connect".

I'm sure this isn't just a "happy to glad" change, I have to imagine they had a darn good reason. But I don't know what it is...

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2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Does the pole stay attached during tacks ?

Sort of...

There's a line tied to the jib clew. It goes in the outboard end of the pole, through the pole, out the inboard end and down to a block and cleat on the deck by the mast gate. The inboard end of the pole runs on a ring along a line tied tight on the front of the mast. Shock cord pulls the inboard end up.

Pull the line and the pole goes to the jib clew. Pull more and the pole goes out. Combination of pole out and sheet tension controls sheeting angle, depth and twist. Release line and the pole just flaps around. I thought that would be annoying and slow but it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Dead down wind pull jib to windward, deploy pole and run goosewinged.

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New ERS also includes a definition of CONNECT:

CONNECT: To bring together or into contact so that a real link is established by which one item effects the function of the other; therefore includes “attached to” and “sheeted to” the corner of the sail.

So my reading of 55.3(a) would be that it is allowed to sheet a headsail to a whisker pole. And I don't see anything that disallows the pole being to leeward. I'm not sure old rule 50.3(c) prohibited that either.

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1 hour ago, European Bloke said:

Sort of...

There's a line tied to the jib clew. It goes in the outboard end of the pole, through the pole, out the inboard end and down to a block and cleat on the deck by the mast gate. The inboard end of the pole runs on a ring along a line tied tight on the front of the mast. Shock cord pulls the inboard end up.

Pull the line and the pole goes to the jib clew. Pull more and the pole goes out. Combination of pole out and sheet tension controls sheeting angle, depth and twist. Release line and the pole just flaps around. I thought that would be annoying and slow but it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Dead down wind pull jib to windward, deploy pole and run goosewinged.

Quite clever!

May be there is a way to adapt this to a cruising boat.

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54 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Quite clever!

May be there is a way to adapt this to a cruising boat.

I think you'd need to go with the inboard end on a track on the mast. Depends how light you could make the pole and how big the boat was. Old carbon windsurf mast might work.

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:

And I don't see anything that disallows the pole being to leeward. I'm not sure old rule 50.3(c) prohibited that either.

TBH I don't think the RRS ever prohibited that, but in some regions PHRF did and the ORR and EZ rules did until last year. Since rating rules are "class" rules, that's where the prohibition came in. 

In a strange twist, in the PHRF-NE jib and main fleet, leeward poles have been in use for years, not because PHRF-NE language allows it but it was written so ambiguously that it didn't disallow it either. A couple years ago, there was a protest between two boats in an EZ fleet because one of the skippers used a pole to leeward, not thinking about it being different from PHRF-NE. 

AIUI, ORA didn't allow leeward poles as a safety issue, but the Volvo boats pretty much made it necessary.

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11 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Yep, as a result of that rule change the dinghy class I sail had some fairly rapid development. We now use a jib stick to leward to open the slot and control twist and depth in the jib.

image.png.47cf94d8c3ca5e1bb376aa3850fd35a0.png

How much different/more effective is this than simply moving jib blocks forward/aft or using in/outhaulers?

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58 minutes ago, crashtack said:

How much different/more effective is this than simply moving jib blocks forward/aft or using in/outhaulers?

Off wind we effectively move the sheeting well outside the sheer line, so it's very effective.

We'd also need to be able to move the sheeting from the floor to the foredeck the lead moves so far forward, which would be impractical.

When you break your pole you get properly spanked.

Considering how small the jib is, about 2.3sqm out of approx 10sqm in total, I'm surprised how important it is.

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1 minute ago, European Bloke said:

Off wind we effectively move the sheeting well outside the sheer line, so it's very effective.

We'd also need to be able to move the sheeting from the floor to the foredeck the lead moves so far forward, which would be impractical.

When you break your pole you get properly spanked.

Considering how small the jib is, about 2.3sqm out of approx 10sqm in total, I'm surprised how important it is.

I am never surprised how effective l.e. slats are on a 727 :D

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4 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Off wind we effectively move the sheeting well outside the sheer line, so it's very effective.

We'd also need to be able to move the sheeting from the floor to the foredeck the lead moves so far forward, which would be impractical.

When you break your pole you get properly spanked.

Considering how small the jib is, about 2.3sqm out of approx 10sqm in total, I'm surprised how important it is.

Wouldn't you be better off going wing-on-wing offwind? Or do rules prevent a Snipe-style whisker pole?

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13 hours ago, European Bloke said:

That's actually a National 12, a bit like a baby Merlin but much lighter, with no kite, and no fake clinker. Several designers have had success in both classes.

With the kite the Merlin can't use a jib stick. I think they use barberhaulers, which is what we used to do until the jib stick was developed to be adjustable and work to leward.

Lovey boat European Bloke. And 'baby Merlin' is such an appropriate description. I had one back in the day, way before they got as sophisticated as they are now. She was called Animal when I got her and having sailed her once decided NOT to change it. She wasn't fake clinker - old enough to be still in wood with plywood clinker - how both the 12 & MR have developed is amazing. The talk about "modern" square top mains sometimes makes me smile, Merlins had a form of those decades ago.

And yes, even though small the slot the jib provides is incredibly important.

Photos are from 35 years ago by the way. 

Animal about to be launched.JPeG

Animal on her trailer.jpeg

Merlin Rocket in Stoke.JPG

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On 4/30/2021 at 9:05 AM, Somebody Else said:

Using a pole to sheet a headsail further to leeward -- away from the main -- used to be called an "outrigger" in the rules and it was explicitly illegal.

The last Volvo Around the World Race, outriggers were used extensively while reaching. I'm not curious enough to exert the effort or research if the prohibition was removed from the RRS or if the SIs changed the RRS in regard to outriggers.

You are correct Somebody Else, in fact in the last 2 Volvos. the VOR 2017-2018 SI's stated

"1.8 RRS 50.3 is deleted and replaced with: An outrigger shall only be used to assist in the sheeting of a sail on the leeward side of the Boat using a designated outrigger attachment point. Outriggers shall not be deployed in Pro-Am or In-Port races. On a Leg they shall not be deployed until a Boat has rounded or passed the first mark of the in-port section or when there is no in-port section after the starting signal."

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8 hours ago, crashtack said:

Wouldn't you be better off going wing-on-wing offwind? Or do rules prevent a Snipe-style whisker pole?

We do when it gets proper runny, but the stick to leward is quick reaching. The decision of when to move the stick is subtle, but critical.

It's why the self launching jibsticks were developed. Going forward to put the stick in was hairy in the breeze as the bow is very fine.

image.png.21435d53839120a8155f3d919e2a14ba.png

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6 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

Lovey boat European Bloke. And 'baby Merlin' is such an appropriate description. I had one back in the day, way before they got as sophisticated as they are now. She was called Animal when I got her and having sailed her once decided NOT to change it. She wasn't fake clinker - old enough to be still in wood with plywood clinker - how both the 12 & MR have developed is amazing. The talk about "modern" square top mains sometimes makes me smile, Merlins had a form of those decades ago.

And yes, even though small the slot the jib provides is incredibly important.

Photos are from 35 years ago by the way. 

Animal about to be launched.JPeG

Animal on her trailer.jpeg

Merlin Rocket in Stoke.JPG

That would have been about the time my uncle first to me 12 sailing.

Great class the Merlin. It's amazing how much strength they have in numbers and activity given their relatively traditional design and high cost. If you stood back you'd say that won't work, but it does.

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1 hour ago, European Bloke said:

That would have been about the time my uncle first to me 12 sailing.

Great class the Merlin. It's amazing how much strength they have in numbers and activity given their relatively traditional design and high cost. If you stood back you'd say that won't work, but it does.

You just made me feel old - haha

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11 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Off wind we effectively move the sheeting well outside the sheer line, so it's very effective.

We'd also need to be able to move the sheeting from the floor to the foredeck the lead moves so far forward, which would be impractical.

When you break your pole you get properly spanked.

Considering how small the jib is, about 2.3sqm out of approx 10sqm in total, I'm surprised how important it is.

We sail sport boats (Varianta 18) on German lakes. On beam reaches when either the Gennaker is too much or the apparent wind angle is too narrow controlling the twist will make mucho difference. When the barberhauler connected to the shrouds ("class" would not allow additional fairleads to be bolted on) offer not sufficient angle the sheet kicked out by foot (might not exactly be allowed by the rules) or by pole (allowed but cumbersome) will give approx. 0.2 kn more and less helm pressure.

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10 hours ago, European Bloke said:

We do when it gets proper runny, but the stick to leward is quick reaching. The decision of when to move the stick is subtle, but critical.

It's why the self launching jibsticks were developed. Going forward to put the stick in was hairy in the breeze as the bow is very fine.

image.png.21435d53839120a8155f3d919e2a14ba.png

has anyone tried/is it even feasible to have a stick long enough to 'invert' the jib for reaching?

https://puu.sh/HD6y7/236306cea1.jpg

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20 hours ago, European Bloke said:

We do when it gets proper runny, but the stick to leward is quick reaching. The decision of when to move the stick is subtle, but critical.

It's why the self launching jibsticks were developed. Going forward to put the stick in was hairy in the breeze as the bow is very fine.

 

on our lake with shifty winds, I'll gybe the main but not the whisked out jib, heading up a little to fill the jib and then gybe back when the wind shits again.   probably lose more speed if the jib was gybed every time as well..   especially in heavier winds where your happy to get the pole up and just leave it on one side..

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3 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

on our lake with shifty winds, I'll gybe the main but not the whisked out jib, heading up a little to fill the jib and then gybe back when the wind shits again.   probably lose more speed if the jib was gybed every time as well..   especially in heavier winds where your happy to get the pole up and just leave it on one side..

We often sail shifty ponds, that's the beauty, we can hang in gybes really fast. Much easier than it used to be with the manual like in the old days. The slow but is the shrouds. We let our leward shroud off so we can square the boom. You have to get it back on before you gybe, and then the new one off. In makes a massive speed difference, so you have to do it.

Reaching with the overlength like to windward only gives you one setting and one angle. The pole to leward is completely adjustable so much more flexible. 

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