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Mixed team racing event. ILCA 6


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this is one of the submissions for the "mixed" slot in the 2024 Olympics.  Rather curious...

A Mixed Team Racing event in the ILCA 6! https://www.sailing.org/90929.php

https://www.sailing.org/news/90924.php?fbclid=IwAR102_zBU4_sMVlA1HGt7U5_I5EI8f5g8wtH4C9LqXrfN-WEFQotC4lPQkc#.YIyfsbVKg2z

 

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Sounds quite interesting? Team racing was or is very popular with universities here in the UK.

You have a team of up to 4 boats in each team & you race against another team of boats. The results are based on the average score of all the boats in a team. It's very tactical racing, as members of the team try to help each other by blocking the other teams boats, so to get a good average score.

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2 hours ago, Martin T said:

Sounds quite interesting? Team racing was or is very popular with universities here in the UK.

You have a team of up to 4 boats in each team & you race against another team of boats. The results are based on the average score of all the boats in a team. It's very tactical racing, as members of the team try to help each other by blocking the other teams boats, so to get a good average score.

The submission is for 2 on 2 boat team racing. 4 boats in each race. Team with last boat loses. Use the boats from the Women's Radial event.

Sounds like a winning idea to me. 

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Team racing was one of the ideas in the thread on replacement Olympic events.   The consensus here was that WS would not go down that route because:

  • Required too many sailor athletes.   We were thinking about 2 person boats and 3 vs 3.  15 teams would have required 90 athletes.  Single handed 2 vs 2 only needs 30.
  • Too complicated for average viewer to understand.  We were think about 3 vs 3 and the various winning combinations. 2 vs 2 is simply "last boat loses"
  • Not widespread enough.  The submission suggests that more countries participate than we realize.

Cleverly using existing equipment so that no additional equipment needed.

Sounds good idea.

Biggest drawback/risk = 2 boat racing can be painful because the teams never play "forward".......the goal is to make the other guy last, until getting a breakout with 1+2 . It is nothing like as exciting as 3 vs 3.  But it would still be good for sport. Mixed also works well .  

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2 boat last boat losses is brilliant. 3 boat doesn't work with last boat losses and it's too complicated for the punters, also requires 6 in a team. Too many athletes.

I don't see existing equipment working. None of the current boats are suitable, but good team racing boats are cheap and would be organiser supplied.

Random paid is fun, everyone sails in a pair with everyone else. Can't see it at the Olympics...

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

It seems to me that you'd have the risk of events going on for a REALLY long time, if the goal is to make the other guy finish last.

FB- Doug

It can move surprisingly quickly once one of the teams gets 1-2.  Then the last 2 boats split and separate and leading pair spilt to cover and then balance (leading boat in leading pair slows his pair down)

I note the submission is from team racing sub committee and does not have any MNA or countries endorsing it at this time.  I think M/W kites are more appealing to IOC  and I think 470 has more political clout.  But Im glad to see it on the agenda because team racing deserves the discussion.   

It doesnt pass the best athlete test. The team racing worlds are team racing aficionados rather then best sailors on the planet. If it got made Olympic, you would see an influx of the best Laser sailors keen on a medal opportunity. I suspect many of the teams would include their Laser reps who would pick up team racing skills rather than team racers picking up Laser skills.

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On 5/1/2021 at 8:45 AM, IPLore said:

Biggest drawback/risk = 2 boat racing can be painful because the teams never play "forward".......the goal is to make the other guy last, until getting a breakout with 1+2 . It is nothing like as exciting as 3 vs 3.  But it would still be good for sport. Mixed also works well .  

The biggest drawback to a 3v3 (other than complexity) is that there are a number of stable winning combinations which pretty much end the race once they progress past mark 1 and so there's more opportunities for boring races versus 2v2 where only a shutout 1-2 is stable.

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Don't forget that at this stage all that has happened is that they have excluded the submissions that plain don't comply with IOC requirements - in other words the ones from hopeless optimists that never stood a chance of IOC accceptance.
Having said that I'm very surprised this one was considered to reach the bar. I don't see how the requirement to have held World championships is satisfied. Team racing worlds in 3*3 2 handers bears almost no relationship to 2 * 2 team racing in Lasers. If the submitters think the IOC can't tell the difference they may be in for a surprise.

I initially thought the 470 was a shoein for the gig, but on reflection the mixed element of the kite event is so very artificial that I reckon the separated kite events should have the shortest odds.

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1 hour ago, crashtack said:

The biggest drawback to a 3v3 (other than complexity) is that there are a number of stable winning combinations which pretty much end the race once they progress past mark 1 and so there's more opportunities for boring races versus 2v2 where only a shutout 1-2 is stable.

I disagree.

The stable winning combinations are  #1  ( 1+2) , #2 (2+3+4)

Unstable winning combos are  2+3+5    (4 attacks 5 to try and drive to 6 so 3 has to try and convert) 1+3+5  1+3+6  2+4+5 then there are all the losing combos

The racing is intense between 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3  and between 3 and 4. If you have a safe combo past 4 of the digital N then usually you can survive but I have seen many pass backs on the last leg in an unstable combo..

But I think the discussion is academic . It is not going to be 3 vs 3 . Its not on the table.

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54 minutes ago, JimC said:

Don't forget that at this stage all that has happened is that they have excluded the submissions that plain don't comply with IOC requirements - in other words the ones from hopeless optimists that never stood a chance of IOC accceptance.
Having said that I'm very surprised this one was considered to reach the bar. I don't see how the requirement to have held World championships is satisfied. Team racing worlds in 3*3 2 handers bears almost no relationship to 2 * 2 team racing in Lasers. If the submitters think the IOC can't tell the difference they may be in for a surprise.

I initially thought the 470 was a shoein for the gig, but on reflection the mixed element of the kite event is so very artificial that I reckon the separated kite events should have the shortest odds.

470 proposal -  (i) The 470 works well as mixed gender boat so harder to argue for separation (ii) Its hardly innovative (1976 I think was year it appeared.  (iii) Decent support from 2 major MNAs.  China has the presidency.  (iv) Risk IOC saying we like the 470 event as is...you don't need a 10th event

Team Racing - (i) Innovative  (ii) I agree with JimC's point, its really not representative of the team racing world championship (iii) Its on shaky ground on the criteria of whether the existing racing includes some of best athletes  (iv Some will see it as a great spectator sport because close action and a battle vs fleet racing which can seem spread out. Some will see it as the opposite. (v) The concept that the medal is not "won" but "lost" because last boat loses.  I dont think it is a real problem. (vi) No MNA support at time of submission  (vii) IOC does like team event that uses athletes from individual events (400m relay, team gymnastics etc) but this is not really equivalent.

Kites  - (i) The existing relay event is kind of daft. Makes sense to split (ii) The 10th event requires no additional athletes. The current 40 athletes in the relay event split into 20 & 20, thus releasing 30- 40 athlete slots from the offshore to bolster Laser numbers which had previously been reduced from 35-40 down to 25. This would allow the Laser to go back up to 35-45 athletes, More countries can participate . Lots of support from the MNAS who were losing their Laser slots (iii) Innovative and off the chart imagery, with a submission that include lots of video.  Vs 470 racing???   (iv) Inclusive message....with potential future champions from Dominican Republic, Thailand, Philippines as well as Europe and America.    The IOC are going to love this and will have a very hard time saying no.  (v) Ease of equipment and logistics ....it can be brought as checked luggage on a plane. (vi) Supported by a dozen MNAs . Note the US did not endorse kites yet, but they will. Its the only event where they have a chance of gold medal. Arguably the 8 year delay in getting kites into the Olympics cost the Heinekens their medals but the next generation of US women are pretty amazing. The UK will likely support becaus ethey have strong medal prospects as well...although they are also very strong in 470. (vii) Downside is that some WS members will look at this as a 4th board event. Windsurfing and Kite foiling have got more similar as windsurfers went on foils.

I would agree with @JimC  the kites have the short odds.....but its WS , so anything can happen.

 

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

I disagree.

The stable winning combinations are  #1  ( 1+2) , #2 (2+3+4)

Unstable winning combos are  2+3+5    (4 attacks 5 to try and drive to 6 so 3 has to try and convert) 1+3+5  1+3+6  2+4+5 then there are all the losing combos

The racing is intense between 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3  and between 3 and 4. If you have a safe combo past 4 of the digital N then usually you can survive but I have seen many pass backs on the last leg in an unstable combo..

But I think the discussion is academic . It is not going to be 3 vs 3 . Its not on the table.

My point was that 1/6 combinations in 2v2 are stable whereas 1/4 (5/20) combinations in 3v3 are stable (like you said, 1-2, and 2-3-4). But yes you're right, its not a very relevant point.

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On 5/1/2021 at 9:04 AM, European Bloke said:

2 boat last boat losses is brilliant. 3 boat doesn't work with last boat losses and it's too complicated for the punters, also requires 6 in a team. Too many athletes.

The problem with 2x2 team racing is that it takes forever because it just devolves into old-school match racing with boats sitting still a lot, or just chasing off into the sunset.

Modern team racing is usually 3X3, which is exciting, fast, and fun. And it's not hard to understand the math. There are only a few winning combos and it's easy to see them. Not hard for punters who can understand rugby or Aussie football.

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