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Help me find my next truck (SUV)


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20-year-old Expedition is on its last legs.  It's been rode hard, put away wet and now it's time for something else.

It's been a good truck, and so my first thought was to just go get another one.  Then I saw the price.  An Expedition with a decent trim package (nav system, heated seats, etc) - basically what I have now - is pushing 80 grand.

That's nuts.  I could go get a Cayenne for that, and have a Porsche badge on the front.

But... I digress.  I don't want to spend that much, and the more I think about I don't need that big a vehicle anymore, so I'm looking at the class of "midsize 3-row" SUVs.  Basically need an SUV big enough to get a few adults and some gear down to the boat or a campsite, plus-or-minus a big dog in the back.  Current rig is AWD/4WD, and I do use it, but could live without it.

Based on nothing but price-ranges and specs so far, my list includes
-- Toyota Highlander, maybe 4runner
-- Nissan Pathfinder
-- Ford Exploder, mayyyybe the new Bronco but have had bad luck buying the first year of a new model...
-- Dodge Durango
-- Mazda CX9
-- Honda Pilot (kinda fugly, but...whatevs)
-- Kia Telluride (the highest rated one in the list, according to consumer reports?!??)

I've been "auditioning" vehicles on travel for a while.  Durango was pretty nice.  Explorer was "okay", not all that roomy but fun to drive - the EcoBoost motor is a kick in the pants.  Volkswagen Atlas had a ton of room, and fun to drive, but consumer reports doesn't rate them very well.  Loved the Ford Flex but they stopped making them.  Toyota FJ Cruiser was cool, but they stopped making those too. 

Not in a hurry.  Priorities are: big enough to be comfortable on long drives, decent performance (I don't need a racecar, but I want to get through mountain passes with good handling and without straining), reliable.  And under 50k, nicely equipped, if that's possible.  Open to a hybrid.  Not open to all-electric.  

Anyone have great (or horrid) experience with a recent model of any of those?  Or other ones to think about?

 

 

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Buy the latest Ridgeline RTL-E (it actually comes with an onboard GPS, not your phone) and put a Softopper on it. Roughly the same price as the mid level KIA Telluride (low to mid $40s) but you can haul full sheets of plywood in it. Tows 5000 lbs and flip off all the anti Ridgeline assholes, they're just too cheap or ill informed to matter.

ETA, my wife has a 21 Telluride and I'm still hanging on to my 2013 Ridgeline. We mostly drive the Honda on long trips because it rides more car like than the Telly.

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4 minutes ago, Willin' said:

Buy the latest Ridgeline RTL-E (it actually comes with an onboard GPS, not your phone) and put a Softopper on it. Roughly the same price as the mid level KIA Telluride (low to mid $40s) but you can haul full sheets of plywood in it. Tows 5000 lbs and flip off all the anti Ridgeline assholes, they're just too cheap or ill informed to matter.

And what, bolt some bucket seats in the bed?  Which part of 3 row SUV does the RTL-E actually meet? And just because it says you can tow 5000 lbs doesnt mean you should.  Towing capacity is rarely about actual GCW and more about whether you can actually stop your vehicle while at GCW.

The new Jeep Grand Cherokee L is going to be nice.  Unfortunately you are going to have to wait a bit for the teething problems to go away.  I have been driving them for work for the last 2.5 years.

MS

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42 minutes ago, sledracr said:

-- Toyota Highlander, maybe 4runner

-- Nissan Pathfinder
-- Ford Exploder, mayyyybe the new Bronco but have had bad luck buying the first year of a new model...
-- Dodge Durango
-- Mazda CX9
-- Honda Pilot (kinda fugly, but...whatevs)
-- Kia Telluride (the highest rated one in the list, according to consumer reports?!??)

I have some experience with a few of those ...

  1. Ford manufactures vehicles that increasingly seem to shit all over high-mileage maintenance, they just don't seem to give a shit.
  2. Dodge, easy to maintain, but the complexity of their sourcing seems to leave a less-than-reliable product, my Dodge truck is like a psychopathic girlfriend.
  3. Ford sold a good bit of their stake in Mazda, but they still co-develop powertrains and suspensions, to the point that these Mazdas are rolling Frankensteins, with FoMoCo stuff all over them, often not labeled as such. If you have any plans to stray out of the factory service, I think they're all going to be overly complicated to repair. I spent over a solid week trying to get my daughter's Ford-Mazda diagonal cross-linked disc-drum brakes tuned. A factory service manager would know the process, but I had to figure it out, it isn't published anywhere, and there is a weird feedback from the Mazda parts to the Ford parts, which are on the same hydraulic lines.
  4. Honda Pilots are now American made in Alabama, they aren't designed for Japan, they're designed for North America, and their quality isn't the legendary Honda. I owned a Pilot for about five years, and in that time it burned through four alternators, because some fucknut in the design team bolted it directly to the engine block where the heat blows out the electronics. There were other problems with it too. Yes, nice vehicle, but it will shit on you eventually, and then shit on your every year or so after that.
  5. My other daughter's Nissan is engineered beautifully, build quality outstanding, repairs aren't simple (like having to pull the intake manifolds to change the spark plugs) but they're at least rational. I did have to cut a slot into the body below the seats to remove the locking collar to get into the fuel tank to pull the fuel pump so I could clean out the fuel filter, but I didn't have to drain and drop the tank, like I would have on a lot of other vehicles. I feel that Nissan has a lot of pride in their product.
  6. Kia/Hyundai seem to have incredible build quality, and supposedly serviceable, though I've never worked on one.
  7. Toyota stuff is easy to repair and long-running, I got my mom a Toyota about ten years ago, it's needed nothing. Someone in GA mentioned that they have put some 400k miles on their Tundra with minimal maintenance.

For me, that list would be Kia, Toyota, Nissan.

A friend got the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, after burning through a Ford, Chevy, Ram, and a Subaru, he reports that the Outlander is the best vehicle he's ever owned, only 5 passenger, but the third row in some of these vehicles is essentially useless for anything other than a dog or a toddler, and then with the third row up, the rear stowage is barely enough to hold a couple Cuban sandwiches.

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

And what, bolt some bucket seats in the bed?  Which part of 3 row SUV does the RTL-E actually meet? And just because it says you can tow 5000 lbs doesnt mean you should.  Towing capacity is rarely about actual GCW and more about whether you can actually stop your vehicle while at GCW.

The new Jeep Grand Cherokee L is going to be nice.  Unfortunately you are going to have to wait a bit for the teething problems to go away.  I have been driving them for work for the last 2.5 years.

MS

Easy there, laddy. I didn't catch that 3 rows was an absolute necessity. In fact, from my experience almost no one actually uses the third row because access sucks, but if that infuriates you, flame on!

And that 5K tow capacity is just a mere guideline. That said, the Honda and Kia both have roughly comparable HP/ torque/ recommended towing capacity. So, in the friendliest possible way, fuck off!

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6 minutes ago, Willin' said:

Easy there, laddy. I didn't catch that 3 rows was an absolute necessity. In fact, from my experience almost no one actually uses the third row because access sucks, but if that infuriates you, flame on!

And that 5K tow capacity is just a mere guideline. That said, the Honda and Kia both have roughly comparable HP/ torque/ recommended towing capacity. So, in the friendliest possible way, fuck off!

We had bought the Pilot specifically because the third row was the biggest of the bunch, and even with the third row up, there was still a modicum of storage in the back. In the years we owned it, I only remember us actually needing that third row once.

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1 minute ago, mikewof said:

We had bought the Pilot specifically because the third row was the biggest of the bunch, and even with the third row up, there was still a modicum of storage in the back. In the years we owned it, I only remember us actually needing that third row once.

Yup! Before the Telly we had a 3 row Hyundai Vera Cruz in which we never opened the back seat up in 13 years. We tried to get it without the unnecessary and unwanted third seat weight but that wasn't an option. It sure looked good in the photos when I sold it though.

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14 minutes ago, mikewof said:

I spent over a solid week trying to get my daughter's Ford-Mazda diagonal cross-linked disc-drum brakes tuned. A factory service manager would know the process, but I had to figure it out, it isn't published anywhere, and there is a weird feedback from the Mazda parts to the Ford parts, which are on the same hydraulic lines.

I have spent the last 22 years working in vehicle brake engineering and in all that time I have NEVER come across a disc/drum vehicle with a diagonal split system.  Drum brakes require a brake proportioning valve (physical or electronic) to make the rear brakes less likely to lock.  Every single drum brake vehicle I have worked on since 1999 has been front/rear split.  This includes before, during, and after the implementation of RWAL (Rear Wheel Anti-Lock).

MS

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Something seems really wonky with vehicle pricing lately.  Used is gone bonkers.

It is really interesting times economically.

Chip shortages, stock market, government printing cash etc.

2 years from now will it all be calm?

I was trying to buy a standard cab long bed F250 or equivalent, and all I see are overpriced high mileage stuff.

Buying new may be the best idea.

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32 minutes ago, Willin' said:

I didn't catch that 3 rows was an absolute necessity.

It's not.  I've used the 3rd row maybe 10 times in the 20 years I've had my Expo, but could live without it.

Whats really nice in a 3-row SUV, though, is that we can put people in the two rows, and with the third row folded down there's still enough room for four people's worth of crap, or for the dog to be comfortable.  That *is* important to me.  Some of the 2-row SUVs I've seen (eg, Rogue, RAV4, Murano) don't have a lot of volume between the 2nd-row seats and the liftgate...

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1 minute ago, Windward said:

Something seems really wonky with vehicle pricing lately.  Used is gone bonkers.

It is really interesting times economically.

Chip shortages, stock market, government printing cash etc.

2 years from now will it all be calm?

I was trying to buy a standard cab long bed F250 or equivalent, and all I see are overpriced high mileage stuff.

Buying new may be the best idea.

It helps that I got a killer deal on my 2021 Grand Cherokee when I bought it last October.  But, I am paying less than I would have for a 2 year old used GC with like 30k on the clock.  It was nutty.  I didnt want a new car, but I wasnt going to overpay to get a used one either.

MS

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While you are still shopping around you may want to add the Subaru Outback and Ascent to your list.

I have a 2011 Outback, had it for a couple of years and it's a great car (not a truck though).

The eyesight system is really good, even my 10 year old version is and I'm sure it has only gotten better since.

Had a small issue with it and took it to a Subaru dealer, I didn't buy it from them but they were still really helpful, something you hear about Subaru dealers worldwide.

Might not be your cup of tea, but I think it needs to go on your maybe list.

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3 hours ago, floating dutchman said:

While you are still shopping around you may want to add the Subaru Outback and Ascent to your list.

I have a 2011 Outback, had it for a couple of years and it's a great car (not a truck though).

The eyesight system is really good, even my 10 year old version is and I'm sure it has only gotten better since.

Had a small issue with it and took it to a Subaru dealer, I didn't buy it from them but they were still really helpful, something you hear about Subaru dealers worldwide.

Might not be your cup of tea, but I think it needs to go on your maybe list.

I got my dad to switch to an Outback (from a Highlander) and he loves it. The eyesight thing is brilliant, and it saved his bacon at least once that he confessed to. They liked the Subaru so my much they got one (an Impreza? Some kind of Sedan) with the eyesight, too.

My son bought and older, pre-eyesight Outback for his first car and loves that too. We've been impressed by them.

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We recently replaced our Tundra work truck with a Ridgeline RTL. It was hard to give up the 8’ bed but a Yakima Longarm hitch mount bed extender helps. We added roof racks and occasionally use a cargo box for bulky things. The storage compartment under the bed is huge. The interior is well done and there appears to be good room in the back seat. It is a pleasure to drive. The VW Tiguan has a surprisingly large interior for a mid size if you avoid the 3rd row seats. Add a cargo box for extra stuff when needed. Avoid VW sunroofs. Go for a drive and buy what you like.

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I'd put another vote for looking at a Subaru Ascent. We have a 2020 and have been very happy with it so far. A few quirks, but nothing too bad. It's "my" car and my wife likes it so much she's considering looking at a smaller Subaru to replace her car when we get to that point.

We went through a similar search before we bought it. Had a 2007 Explorer with 3rd row and wanted something similar. We actually use the 3rd row for kid hauling so we were only looking for cars that had them. Wife hated the Explorer due to it's reliability so Ford was out, and I wasn't thrilled with the Chevy/GMC option. I wanted a V6, a real transmission (ie not a CVT), no turbo, real 4x4 instead of AWD, and body on frame if I could get it. That pretty much left the 4Runner, but I was willing to look at the Highlander and the Ascent. We were shopping just as the 2020s were coming out and Toyota had great deals on 2019s. Wife hated the 4Runner, and it turned out that getting a 3rd row in them was rare or special order only. Highlander was ok and would have been fine, but it was ok. Toyota ok...

Kia Telluride and Hyundai Palisade had just come out and dealers were charging premiums for them, which seemed stupid for a Kia or Hyundai, so I didn't even bother with them. 

In the end, we really liked the Ascent and got the Limited trim. It's AWD, turbo 4, with a CVT. Has a 5000lb tow rating. The turbo took a bit of getting used to and the CVT sometimes "feels" weird, but over all it's been great. Lots of tech which is good and bad. They had some initial problems with the CVT's in the 2019s due to a faulty wiring harness that they sorted out and have had a few issues with the nav system/stereo that have mostly been fixed via updates.  For ours, the only problems have been mostly quirks or user error stuff. We somehow left the lift gate open all night and it drained the battery. Sometimes connecting my phone to Android Auto doesn't work (a bit annoying when it happens, but this really pisses off some owners apparently per the online reviews). The mileage is great on the highway or highway/city mix, but if its lots of neighborhood stop and go, it really suffers. 

 

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13 hours ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

I have spent the last 22 years working in vehicle brake engineering and in all that time I have NEVER come across a disc/drum vehicle with a diagonal split system.  Drum brakes require a brake proportioning valve (physical or electronic) to make the rear brakes less likely to lock.  Every single drum brake vehicle I have worked on since 1999 has been front/rear split.  This includes before, during, and after the implementation of RWAL (Rear Wheel Anti-Lock).

MS

If you feel you don't have enough frustration in your life, fix a recent Mazda 2 or Ford Fiesta (though I haven't looked at the Fiesta), they are apparently both that Ford-Mazda Frankenstein ... SAE FoMoCo drums on the back, diagonal cross-linked to Japanese metric calipers on the front.

The antilock cylinder is apparently downstream from the master. I couldn't get those brakes to work after replacing the rear axle beam. I ended up rebuilding both back drum brakes; springs, shoes, cylinders, still no work.

In desperation, I poked around YouTube, found out they're diagonally cross-linked, then bled them with my compressor vacuum, finally got some hydraulic pressure.

Those Ford-Mazda Frankensteins are weird, the Mazda bits are dead nuts money, the FoMoCo stuff is okay, but they just don't seem to like to work with each other too well.

Now I scan the port, no error codes, but the idiot lights still show ABS and Traction Control faults. Hopefully it's just that my anemic computer can't turn it off, because I don't want to try to reach the ABS cylinder.

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13 hours ago, Windward said:

Something seems really wonky with vehicle pricing lately.  Used is gone bonkers.

It is really interesting times economically.

Chip shortages, stock market, government printing cash etc.

2 years from now will it all be calm?

I was trying to buy a standard cab long bed F250 or equivalent, and all I see are overpriced high mileage stuff.

Buying new may be the best idea.

COVID. The parts supply  chain is supposedly all fucked up, with manufacturing in Asia only gradually catching up. I spoke with a friend in customs, she said even simple jobs take lots longer, with lots of unbilled waiting time.

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15 hours ago, Willin' said:

Buy the latest Ridgeline RTL-E (it actually comes with an onboard GPS, not your phone) and put a Softopper on it. Roughly the same price as the mid level KIA Telluride (low to mid $40s) but you can haul full sheets of plywood in it. Tows 5000 lbs and flip off all the anti Ridgeline assholes, they're just too cheap or ill informed to matter.

ETA, my wife has a 21 Telluride and I'm still hanging on to my 2013 Ridgeline. We mostly drive the Honda on long trips because it rides more car like than the Telly.

Swan 70....is that you?

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27 minutes ago, chester said:

Swan 70....is that you?

Is that who started the whole Ridgeline kerfuffle? I knew it started in the early pleistocene of SA but I missed it. Just assumed it was descended from Gator or Wofsie.

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The vehicle I want, no one makes.  After thinking about it for a year, I am going to write Ford and ask them to build it.  I am betting it will be a good seller.

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8 minutes ago, Willin' said:

Is that who started the whole Ridgeline kerfuffle? I knew it started in the early pleistocene of SA but I missed it. Just assumed it was descended from Gator or Wofsie.

I think so...but it was a shockingly long time ago, so I could be wrong...I bet @Snaggletooth knows.

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Just got back from a 2 day road trip with a friend in his 4 yr old Durango, 6 cyl, lots of extras, touch screen, heated/ac seats etc. In one 6 hour shift I drove 75 and averaged 25mpg. I have been sour on Chrysler stuff from some years back, this was very comfortable and quiet, plenty of power and a pleasure on the highway. It's dark blue and hard to pick out in the crowd. I have been an F150 guy for years but would put this on my look at list.  No idea of pricing and fwiw I tend to always buy used after someone else takes that first big hit. And I usually put 200k or more before I give one up, last F150 was 280k and just was looking ragged and little crap starting to go out.  Friends only complaint is that it has been hit on both sides (maybe get a brighter color).

Ridgeline started by Nailing Malarkey/Happy Jack/Dagger Bored and a littany of other IDs going on about it being THE superior truck.  Then came the F35 threads. 

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1 minute ago, d'ranger said:

Just got back from a 2 day road trip with a friend in his 4 yr old Durango, 6 cyl, lots of extras, touch screen, heated/ac seats etc. In one 6 hour shift I drove 75 and averaged 25mpg. I have been sour on Chrysler stuff from some years back, this was very comfortable and quiet, plenty of power and a pleasure on the highway. It's dark blue and hard to pick out in the crowd. I have been an F150 guy for years but would put this on my look at list.  No idea of pricing and fwiw I tend to always buy used after someone else takes that first big hit. And I usually put 200k or more before I give one up, last F150 was 280k and just was looking ragged and little crap starting to go out.  Friends only complaint is that it has been hit on both sides (maybe get a brighter color).

Ridgeline started by Nailing Malarkey/Happy Jack/Dagger Bored and a littany of other IDs going on about it being THE superior truck.  Then came the F35 threads. 

Well there you go, thanks.

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13 minutes ago, Willin' said:

Is that who started the whole Ridgeline kerfuffle? I knew it started in the early pleistocene of SA but I missed it. Just assumed it was descended from Gator or Wofsie.

No it was the Happy Jack/Nailing Malarkey troll who extolled it as the best and only possible truck to own.

If you people say the R-word one more time he's going to come back here with another sock.

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25 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

4 yr old Durango, 6 cyl, lots of extras, touch screen, heated/ac seats etc.

Yeah.  I had a Durango as a rental on a road-trip to/from Missoula last fall, good vehicle.  Comfortable, plenty of room, easy to drive, decent features... plus the one I had came with the "sport mode" which was entertaining.  Nothing I didn't like about it.  Definitely on the list.  Have never owned a Dodge, and my Ford-snob friends would be merciless, but... oh well.

And, yeah.  Current Expedition has 280k on it right now, and while it's still functional, it's at that point where fixes cost more than it's worth....  (in fact, the wheels and tires on it are worth more than the blue-book value <lol>)

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Dodge products tend to be great right up until they're not. Probably the sweet spot is years 3-5, after they've depreciated quite a bit (and do they depreciate!) but before their bean counter-driven designs start to fail. 

That said, my RAM 3500 has been bulletproof. Probably because Cummins built the engine and the rest of it is simple enough that even Chrysler couldn't fuck it up. That said, it's a 2005 and in 2006 they re-did all the electricals to tie into the CANBUS. Took a few model years to work the bugs out of that...

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

The vehicle I want, no one makes.  After thinking about it for a year, I am going to write Ford and ask them to build it.  I am betting it will be a good seller.

Been done, didn't work:D

the-homer-inline4.jpg

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First, I have no idea why it's upside down! Puter illiterate

I had the same quandry but my needs were different. I needed a retirement tow vehicle that could handle 10k.

New trucks were appealing but couldn't convince myself that 60-80k made sense given all the recalls.

'01 suburban 2500 I bought back in '05 with 32k miles. 496 under the hood and towhaul feature on the transmission.

Last year kicked over300k and decided I was going to keep it.

Rebuilt engine with more aggressive cam for better mid range torque.

100mm intake throttle body.

Short tube headers.

New transmission.

New radiator and master brake cylinder.

New 180 amp alternator and dual battery system

Torsion key leveler

New leather seats.

New Talon rims and BFG ATs

I still need to install a new sound/nav system and the Z71 roof rack (Has a rear roller for a dinghy)

All up, I'm at about 21,500.

It fits me, I know it inside and out now. Very happy with the decision and definitely money ahead.

 

WL

 

 

 

 

PXL_20210317_225600762.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

2021 Tahoe  with the turbo diesel.. 

Heh.  the low-end Tahoe is 15k more than I want to spend....

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

The vehicle I want, no one makes.  After thinking about it for a year, I am going to write Ford and ask them to build it.  I am betting it will be a good seller.

What is your idea? 

If Ford builds it, they'll find a way to fuck it up. 

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1 hour ago, White Lightning2 said:

First, I have no idea why it's upside down! Puter illiterate

I had the same quandry but my needs were different. I needed a retirement tow vehicle that could handle 10k.

New trucks were appealing but couldn't convince myself that 60-80k made sense given all the recalls.

'01 suburban 2500 I bought back in '05 with 32k miles. 496 under the hood and towhaul feature on the transmission.

Last year kicked over300k and decided I was going to keep it.

Rebuilt engine with more aggressive cam for better mid range torque.

100mm intake throttle body.

Short tube headers.

New transmission.

New radiator and master brake cylinder.

New 180 amp alternator and dual battery system

Torsion key leveler

New leather seats.

New Talon rims and BFG ATs

I still need to install a new sound/nav system and the Z71 roof rack (Has a rear roller for a dinghy)

All up, I'm at about 21,500.

It fits me, I know it inside and out now. Very happy with the decision and definitely money ahead.

 

WL

 

 

 

 

PXL_20210317_225600762.jpg

must have been the australian model..

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1 hour ago, Willin&#x27; said:

Is that who started the whole Ridgeline kerfuffle? I knew it started in the early pleistocene of SA but I missed it. Just assumed it was descended from Gator or Wofsie.

I used to call it the Ridgewood, because my autocorrect put that in, seemed to drive Jack nuts. I had a Pilot, which is a Ridgeline with the bed shortened and enclosed, not a reliable vehicle. 

Anyway, in Cheyenne at the moment, drove past Happy Jack Road earlier, seems to lead to a military base. 

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20 hours ago, sledracr said:

Heh.  the low-end Tahoe is 15k more than I want to spend....

I try and be frugal, but sometimes I kick myself for doing so...  in '85 I bought an RX-7, I got the SE model because I thought $2000 for the SEL was a little much.  regret it  to this day for not getting the SEL   even though it's been 25 years since I had the RX..  

and look for a used one..

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20 hours ago, White Lightning2 said:

First, I have no idea why it's upside down! Puter illiterate

 

Maybe it wants to live in Australia.... It's just giving you a hint.

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40 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

 

Maybe it wants to live in Australia.... It's just giving you a hint.

I'm surprised no one commented on the Wile E Coyote sticker on the dent!!

 

WL

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23 minutes ago, White Lightning2 said:

I'm surprised no one commented on the Wile E Coyote sticker on the dent!!

 

WL

I thought that was just a preying Mantis.... Yanno, it's hard to see the details when you're struggling to see the big picture... :P

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(I have no idea. I just clicked "view image" and it came out right side up. I c&ped it to the reply box, and here it is in North America!)

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If I could buy a Tata, I would. Excellent vehicles. Just not available in the USA.

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4 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

I try and be frugal, but sometimes I kick myself for doing so... 

Yup.  While in college I had a choice between a used-but-cherry BMW 2002tii, or a new Honda Civic.  Honda was $300 less, and came with a warranty.

Have kicked myself over that one for more than 40 years.

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Stopped at a Subaru dealer today to see an Ascent.  None on the lot, and apparently they're unobtanium.  If I ordered today, sight unseen, I might get it in August.

Still on the list, just.... not quite willing to do the "sight unseen" thing.

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8 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Stopped at a Subaru dealer today to see an Ascent.  None on the lot, and apparently they're unobtanium.  If I ordered today, sight unseen, I might get it in August.

Still on the list, just.... not quite willing to do the "sight unseen" thing.

Any Foresters? I loved mine. It was a 2000, and had more dog hair than any one car should have, but it was a great vehicle. Almost unstoppable in the snow (and when the snow was that deep, I had the Jeep), it'd fly down the highway, cruise down the alley way, and before they caught me I'd be gone. Driving back up to Vt. from No-Flo one late February morning, I passed a Mercedes 500SL in the right hand lane doing about 90MPH..... In S.C..... I saw the radar trap up ahead, took my foot off the gas pedal, and let the Merc take the ticket.

I went from St. Augustine, Fl. to Emporia, Va. in about 6 hours. Took me another 8 to get up to Vt. the next day. It was kind of an emergency trip, so I wasn't worried about gas milage that trip. Otherwise, It was just OK MPG wise. Full time AWD sucks the fuel down, no doubt.

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This thread inspired me to take advantage of a beautiful day to scrub the dirt and mildew off my Ram 3500. It took about 3 hours but amortized over the 10 years since the last good scrubbing, I figure I'm ahead of the game ;) 

IMG_20210502_150947_01.jpg

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

Stopped at a Subaru dealer today to see an Ascent.  None on the lot, and apparently they're unobtanium.  If I ordered today, sight unseen, I might get it in August.

Still on the list, just.... not quite willing to do the "sight unseen" thing.

Might be that way for a bit. Apparently they have paused production at the Indiana plant due to the chip shortage. 

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4 hours ago, sledracr said:

Stopped at a Subaru dealer today to see an Ascent.  None on the lot, and apparently they're unobtanium.  If I ordered today, sight unseen, I might get it in August.

Still on the list, just.... not quite willing to do the "sight unseen" thing.

And fair enough too.  If you are going to buy one, they kind of have to have one to sell.

I think there is a worldwide shortage of cars, might not be the best time to get a great deal on anything, but then getting a good deal could mean waiting a year, who knows at this point.

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On 5/2/2021 at 10:06 PM, floating dutchman said:

And fair enough too.  If you are going to buy one, they kind of have to have one to sell.

I think there is a worldwide shortage of cars, might not be the best time to get a great deal on anything, but then getting a good deal could mean waiting a year, who knows at this point.

Last year auto companies stopped production and canceled orders for parts.  When sales didn't fall as far as they thought they got caught flat footed.  When they went to order new parts for the ones they canceled they found out they were part of a two year cycle and got bumped to the bottom of the list for canceling orders.

Suddenly worldwide chip shortage. And car shortage.  All because the bean counters didn't want to have the parts on hand. 

 

Toyota is making cars because whole they love just in time delivery of parts they contractually force companies to keep a 6 month inventory. As long as toyota doesn't have to pay for it

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On 5/1/2021 at 5:11 PM, White Lightning2 said:

First, I have no idea why it's upside down! Puter illiterate

I had the same quandry but my needs were different. I needed a retirement tow vehicle that could handle 10k.

New trucks were appealing but couldn't convince myself that 60-80k made sense given all the recalls.

'01 suburban 2500 I bought back in '05 with 32k miles. 496 under the hood and towhaul feature on the transmission.

Last year kicked over300k and decided I was going to keep it.

Rebuilt engine with more aggressive cam for better mid range torque.

100mm intake throttle body.

Short tube headers.

New transmission.

New radiator and master brake cylinder.

New 180 amp alternator and dual battery system

Torsion key leveler

New leather seats.

New Talon rims and BFG ATs

I still need to install a new sound/nav system and the Z71 roof rack (Has a rear roller for a dinghy)

All up, I'm at about 21,500.

It fits me, I know it inside and out now. Very happy with the decision and definitely money ahead.

 

WL

 

 

 

 

PXL_20210317_225600762.jpg

probably going to do the same with my 07 Navigator... engine/trans swap. I've always felt like I was driving around in my living room in this truck. 

I just hope that mine comes back right side up!

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6 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

probably going to do the same with my 07 Navigator... engine/trans swap. I've always felt like I was driving around in my living room in this truck. 

I just hope that mine comes back right side up!

lol

 

I've got no regrets about the decision. I think I will be into it for 25k total after the sound/nav system with 2 backup cams. Minimal electronics to go haywire and no recalls to worry about.

 

WL

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2 minutes ago, White Lightning2 said:

lol

 

I've got no regrets about the decision. I think I will be into it for 25k total after the sound/nav system with 2 backup cams. Minimal electronics to go haywire and no recalls to worry about.

 

WL

my biggest automotive regret was selling on 01 Excursion with a 7.3L. 

wish I could fit that engine into this engine bay. 

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6 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

my biggest automotive regret was selling on 01 Excursion with a 7.3L. 

wish I could fit that engine into this engine bay. 

Yep. I get that. When we adopted 2 kids the Ram with the Cummins had to go and I really wanted to keep about the same HP and Torque. So, the 8.1 got me close to that. 

While Chevy is coming out with a diesel suburban next year, I gave some serious thought to going this route

Duramax Specialties, LLC (duramaxsuv.com)

 

WL

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and I'd love to get a 7.3 shoved into my class C RV. I think it would fit in there, it's got a V10 in it now and a quigley 4*4 conversion. that gas engine struggles to get up the hills out west. 

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On 5/1/2021 at 1:14 AM, Mr. Squirrel said:

It helps that I got a killer deal on my 2021 Grand Cherokee when I bought it last October.  But, I am paying less than I would have for a 2 year old used GC with like 30k on the clock.  It was nutty.  I didnt want a new car, but I wasnt going to overpay to get a used one either.

MS

I also got a great deal on 2020 GC Limited last May.  A good upgrade from the 2008 Liberty I had (now son is using it).

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2 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

no chip shortage here

Oregon Trail - Wagons | Britannica

But who wants a vehicle with only four horsepower?

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4 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

no chip shortage here

Oregon Trail - Wagons | Britannica

Neigh a clomp shortage either.

I'd wager it's a shoe in for 4 wheel magazines wagon of the year award.

Butt that's a tail for another day

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4 hours ago, Mike in Seattle said:

The guy who organizes the bikers snowcamp has a quigley under a full size van.

I was impressed at what a capable unit it is.

this thing is essentially a 4 Wheel Drive house with 13" of ground clearance. It needs a little more grunt and better gearing for mountain use. 

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

It's all about power-to-weight and low-end torque. 

Also, the ratio of clearance to wheelbase. A "fully off-road capable" 2020 F-150 with 10 inches of clearance seems wonderful, until you look at its 145-inch wheelbase, the ratio is only 0.069.

The Suzuki Samurai with the 8-inches clearance and 80-inch wheelbase actually had a far more capable off-road stance than most anything in the showroom today, the clearance to wheelbase ratio was 0.1, and a cheap lift kit doubled that 0.2 and more.

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4 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

no chip shortage here

Oregon Trail - Wagons | Britannica

reckon that's carryin' 1ton axles?

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OK, so.... as I dig deeper into the options, a short-list seems to be developing

-- Kia Telluride
-- Subaru Ascent
-- Honda Pilot
-- VW Atlas "cross sport"
-- Mazda CX9

Most of those, at least according to Consumer Reports, have plusses and minuses...

-- The Telluride is the highest rated, both overall and driving, and I like the idea of a 100k warranty, but is pretty boxy and doesn't rate well in handling

-- The Ascent sounds really good, but CR gives it a big red mark on reliability (which is surprising to the Suby owners I know).   Plus, unobtanium

-- The Pilot is a good-but-unremarkable option, according to CR.  I've had a number of Honda couples, never an SUV

-- The Atlas is - I've driven one, and liked it, but other than handling the CR downrates it pretty hard, especially on reliability

So the one that seems to be floating toward the top of the list is the CX-9.  CR says it is responsive and fun to drive, the styling comes at the cost of a little cargo room (probably not a big deal), but the review says the cockpit feels narrow and not particularly roomy compared to the others in this class.  Given that I want a vehicle that is nice to drive AND comfortable on long trips, that has my attention.

So, next step is probably to go drive one.  But in parallel, thought I'd ask: anyone have experience with the CX-9?  Real-world feedback (good or bad) would be great.

 

And, yeah.... if I was into rebuilding cars, I would wish I'd kept my '72 K5 Blazer.  Locking diffs and hubs with a mild lift, tons of room, roof that came off to the windshield, and no crap under the hood - nothing but a small-block Chevy that even *I* could figure out how to work on.  Zero creature comforts, and I wouldn't take it on a 1000-mile road trip without a big bottle of advil, but.... a blast to drive, and it would go freakin' anywhere, sand or mud or snow, didn't care.

These days, though, I have zero interest in working on a car.  Just like the diesel on my boat, Im happy to do routine maintenance but I basically want it to reliably start and run when I turn the key, and not be a never-ending project. 

(not mine, but a close twin)  ....and not sure why the picture won't show.

R6110a155eb9b5bb755ff47c8e7b95e9a.jfif

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Never giving up my 2013 Expedition. King Ranch FWD which they don’t make anymore. Thought I wanted a new one...then drove one with that stupid engine turning on and off thing at stop lights thing. Nope.......67,000 miles and clicking right along. Keep it sled!!! 

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38 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Keep it sled!!! 

Yeah, mine's a 2003 with 280k on it.  5.4L Triton, FX4 package, full-time "control-trac" 4WD with selectable 2-hi/2-low/4-low, aftermarket wheels and stereo/nav.... it's been a good truck but it's at the point where it would take a new motor to bring it back up to snuff, and *if* I felt like putting 10k into repowering it, I suspect I'd have a cascading set of problems as the new power found the weak-spots in 20-year-old transmission, transfer case, diffs, etc.  See "never-ending project".  

Not in the cards.  I'd much rather put the money toward a vehicle I won't need to worry about for the next 15-20 years. 

BTW, I should add, if anyone is interested I have a 2-drawer "truck-vault" in the back of the Expo which I'd be happy to re-home. Would need to be local (would cost more than it's worth to ship)... but if anyone's interested, drop me a PM.

Standard 2 Drawer | SUV – Base Line | TruckVault 

ETA  (actually, if someone local wants the whole damn truck, let me know.  Blue-book value is, like, a couple grand - I think the wheels are actually worth more than that! - but it has "issues".  For someone that is into wrenching on Fords, could be a smokin' opportunity)

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Sled, for the Ascent ratings on CR, I have heard they are lower due to the 2019 model (first year) issues with the transmission wiring harness, some quirkiness with the Nav/radio stuff and a handful of recalls. My understanding is most of that has been resolved, but CR has kept the ratings down. 

We've had no recalls on our 2020 so far and have only had a couple minor gripes and a few things that I think could have been done better. 

This is our first Subaru so I'm not quite in the cult yet, but there is definitely a cult. With a Forums and Facebook groups, and owner events... 

Of course none of that matters if you can't get your hands on one. 

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Did you hear of the recent legislation passed House and Senate in Washington State on April 15, 2021, to ban registration of new gas- and diesel-powered vehicles including light duty trucks in 2030. Heavy duty trucks escaped this legislation for now, but probably will be next on the chopping block.  That's five years earlier then California's ban. The bills to remove ICE vehicles from the road permanently will be next. Hydrogen powered or Hydrogen cell/ electric hybrid or all electric will be our next vehicles. 

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Yeah, the 2030 date is a bit squishy and requires that at least 75% of the vehicles on the road be subject to the mileage tax rather than the gas tax, so it's somewhat tied to the availability and penetration of electric vehicles and their charging infrastructure. If that hasn't happened by 2030, the date will slip. Also, as you pointed out, it only applies to new vehicles. All in all, it's better thought out than, say, the copper bottom paint ban was.

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Yes - It's a business reality, according to industry analysts. But if the general path ahead is widely agreed on, the speed of the change - and the role that combustion vehicles will play during the transition - is far from clear. The way it's shaping up right now - electric, hybrid and non-gas cars are expected to triple in the next four years, and then start doubling yearly thereafter.

Auto companies around the world are gearing up for what will be a massive financial commitment. Carmakers plan to invest something like over $90 billion in the shift to electric vehicles over the next decade or so.

Electric motors are simpler, making them easier to maintain and meaning they should last longer. Keeping them charged is cheaper than buying gas, an advantage that will become even more significant if gas prices rise. And rise they will as they force us to use alternatives.

Yes, charging station infrastructure is still in its infancy. But experts predict batteries will get cheaper, charging will get quicker, and chargers will become more readily available. At some point, industry watchers say, the balance will shift. Most experts and annalists say the shift will occur probably in the mid-2020s time frame - at which time it becomes comparable or cheaper to actually buy and operate an EV or hybrid than an internal combustion vehicle. Some analysts say this change could be slower - but they all agree change is coming.

Even if 100 percent of vehicles sold were electric starting today, it would still take about 20 years or perhaps more to replace the entire vehicle fleet with electric vehicles. So yes the combustion engines really aren't going anywhere soon. But raising fuel prices to $7.00 a gallon and then $10.00 a gallon will force the change.

Sold my 5-series 530i two days ago as I prepare to buy an electric or hybrid for my daily driver. Still have my 528i but it's next on the chopping block. Keeping my truck, till I'm forced to replace with an electric or hybrid.

061.JPG

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On 5/5/2021 at 8:58 PM, sledracr said:

OK, so.... as I dig deeper into the options, a short-list seems to be developing

-- Kia Telluride
-- Subaru Ascent
-- Honda Pilot
-- VW Atlas "cross sport"
-- Mazda CX9

Most of those, at least according to Consumer Reports, have plusses and minuses...

-- The Telluride is the highest rated, both overall and driving, and I like the idea of a 100k warranty, but is pretty boxy and doesn't rate well in handling

-- The Ascent sounds really good, but CR gives it a big red mark on reliability (which is surprising to the Suby owners I know).   Plus, unobtanium

-- The Pilot is a good-but-unremarkable option, according to CR.  I've had a number of Honda couples, never an SUV

-- The Atlas is - I've driven one, and liked it, but other than handling the CR downrates it pretty hard, especially on reliability

So the one that seems to be floating toward the top of the list is the CX-9.  CR says it is responsive and fun to drive, the styling comes at the cost of a little cargo room (probably not a big deal), but the review says the cockpit feels narrow and not particularly roomy compared to the others in this class.  Given that I want a vehicle that is nice to drive AND comfortable on long trips, that has my attention.

So, next step is probably to go drive one.  But in parallel, thought I'd ask: anyone have experience with the CX-9?  Real-world feedback (good or bad) would be great.

 

And, yeah.... if I was into rebuilding cars, I would wish I'd kept my '72 K5 Blazer.  Locking diffs and hubs with a mild lift, tons of room, roof that came off to the windshield, and no crap under the hood - nothing but a small-block Chevy that even *I* could figure out how to work on.  Zero creature comforts, and I wouldn't take it on a 1000-mile road trip without a big bottle of advil, but.... a blast to drive, and it would go freakin' anywhere, sand or mud or snow, didn't care.

These days, though, I have zero interest in working on a car.  Just like the diesel on my boat, Im happy to do routine maintenance but I basically want it to reliably start and run when I turn the key, and not be a never-ending project. 

(not mine, but a close twin)  ....and not sure why the picture won't show.

R6110a155eb9b5bb755ff47c8e7b95e9a.jfifUnavailable

Of the ones on your list,

CX-9 is the "driver's car."  Gives up some cargo and passenger room to achieve that.  Fit and finish of new Mazda's is really good.  Audi level.  Right now it's the leading contender to replace the current family wagon ('14 Volvo XC 70 FWD with 147k on it).  Mazda tows about the same (3500lbs) and has same cargo capacity (72 cu. ft) with all the seats down.  Plus better mileage.  

I've owned 9 Mazdas so far in my life...Also 7 Fords, 2 Volvos, a BMW Z-3, a Honda Pilot and a MGB...that list includes a '97 Expedition.  But today's Explorer is about the same size as the old Expedition was...new ones as you know are both crazy expensive and significantly bigger.

All the car mags (Car & Driver, Road & Track and Automobile) all ranked the CX-9 as the best 3 row SUV because it was such a great drivers car, until the new Telluride came out.  They say, and I haven't driven one yet, that it drives almost as well as the Mazda, and carries a bunch more stuff, giving it the edge....I don't need any more cargo/people room than I have now, the the CX-9 still fits my needs best...

Supposed to be a new CX-9 coming in 2022, but don't know yet if COVID will in the end delay that some....

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On 5/6/2021 at 9:19 AM, boomer said:

Yes - It's a business reality, according to industry analysts. But if the general path ahead is widely agreed on, the speed of the change - and the role that combustion vehicles will play during the transition - is far from clear. The way it's shaping up right now - electric, hybrid and non-gas cars are expected to triple in the next four years, and then start doubling yearly thereafter.

Auto companies around the world are gearing up for what will be a massive financial commitment. Carmakers plan to invest something like over $90 billion in the shift to electric vehicles over the next decade or so.

Electric motors are simpler, making them easier to maintain and meaning they should last longer. Keeping them charged is cheaper than buying gas, an advantage that will become even more significant if gas prices rise. And rise they will as they force us to use alternatives.

Yes, charging station infrastructure is still in its infancy. But experts predict batteries will get cheaper, charging will get quicker, and chargers will become more readily available. At some point, industry watchers say, the balance will shift. Most experts and annalists say the shift will occur probably in the mid-2020s time frame - at which time it becomes comparable or cheaper to actually buy and operate an EV or hybrid than an internal combustion vehicle. Some analysts say this change could be slower - but they all agree change is coming.

Even if 100 percent of vehicles sold were electric starting today, it would still take about 20 years or perhaps more to replace the entire vehicle fleet with electric vehicles. So yes the combustion engines really aren't going anywhere soon. But raising fuel prices to $7.00 a gallon and then $10.00 a gallon will force the change.

Sold my 5-series 530i two days ago as I prepare to buy an electric or hybrid for my daily driver. Still have my 528i but it's next on the chopping block. Keeping my truck, till I'm forced to replace with an electric or hybrid.

I don't disagree but I think the charging infrastructure part will be harder than expected due to the ripple effects on the grid and the building/electrical codes. It's relatively simple to add charging at large public locations (grocery stores, etc) because there's already robust electrical service and one permit can cover numerous installations. However, the most useful charging point is at home with a level 2 unit. Unless it's a newer home with good electrical service and a garage, it can be difficult+expensive to get the level 2 infrastructure in place. Older homes that don't have good electrical service and that are limited on-street parking will be challenging to update without some sort of expedited permitting and subsidies for the installation of curbside charging. Once you reach a certain penetration, the poles need to be upgraded, etc, etc. I can all be done, of course, but I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer than 2030 to get there. 

EDIT: I should note that my (older, wealthier) neighborhood has seen the pole wiring being replaced/upgraded over the last few weeks so maybe Seattle is ahead of the game. I'd be surprised, but electrification is probably one of the only issues our dysfunctional city government seems to be able to agree on.

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12 minutes ago, IStream said:

I don't disagree but I think the charging infrastructure part will be harder than expected due to the ripple effects on the grid and the building/electrical codes. It's relatively simple to add charging at large public locations (grocery stores, etc) because there's already robust electrical service and one permit can cover numerous installations. However, the most useful charging point is at home with a level 2 unit. Unless it's a newer home with good electrical service and a garage, it can be difficult+expensive to get the level 2 infrastructure in place. Older homes that don't have good electrical service and that are limited on-street parking will be challenging to update without some sort of expedited permitting and subsidies for the installation of curbside charging. Once you reach a certain penetration, the poles need to be upgraded, etc, etc. I can all be done, of course, but I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer than 2030 to get there. 

EDIT: I should note that my (older, wealthier) neighborhood has seen the pole wiring being replaced/upgraded over the last few weeks so maybe Seattle is ahead of the game. I'd be surprised, but electrification is probably one of the only issues our dysfunctional city government seems to be able to agree on.

not single family homes, but I'm working on the design for a new high rise residential building and we're designing in electrical capacity to do at least 50% of the onsite parking with level 2 chargers. This isn't every project though, some are still planning on smaller numbers, but  I think things are heading that way. 

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Gas/Elecric Hybrids are still outselling electric. As we wean off of gas, I'd expect hydrogen cell/electric hybrids to capture much of the future market, till we're finally capable of shifting over to all electric vehicles. However, electric vehicles are the future, we just have a ways to go.

Hybrids Are Quietly Selling Faster Than Fully Electric Cars

Every Electric Vehicle That's Expected in the Next Five Years

Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles for a Sustainable Future

Kenworth begins taking orders for Class 8 electric truck

Every Electric Pickup Truck Currently on the Horizon

Best New EVs and Hybrids of 2021

Here's Every New Electric Vehicle Model for Sale in the U.S. in 2021

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On 5/5/2021 at 8:44 AM, Bump-n-Grind said:

this thing is essentially a 4 Wheel Drive house with 13" of ground clearance. It needs a little more grunt and better gearing for mountain use. 

The diesel would make a big difference in grunt, for sure,.

I looked around quigly site a bit, but couldn't find,,

What would really make a difference would be an old school transfer case  with reduction for those long pass pulls.

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

I don't disagree but I think the charging infrastructure part will be harder than expected due to the ripple effects on the grid and the building/electrical codes. It's relatively simple to add charging at large public locations (grocery stores, etc) because there's already robust electrical service and one permit can cover numerous installations. However, the most useful charging point is at home with a level 2 unit. Unless it's a newer home with good electrical service and a garage, it can be difficult+expensive to get the level 2 infrastructure in place. Older homes that don't have good electrical service and that are limited on-street parking will be challenging to update without some sort of expedited permitting and subsidies for the installation of curbside charging. Once you reach a certain penetration, the poles need to be upgraded, etc, etc. I can all be done, of course, but I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer than 2030 to get there. 

EDIT: I should note that my (older, wealthier) neighborhood has seen the pole wiring being replaced/upgraded over the last few weeks so maybe Seattle is ahead of the game. I'd be surprised, but electrification is probably one of the only issues our dysfunctional city government seems to be able to agree on.

Lest you forget all the folks that rely on street parking as they don't garages or even carports in their apartments or older homes.  Where does their charging station get placed?

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Street parking is a complete negative for electric vehicles. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles would work fine there though. (As would gassers, diesels, and gas hybrids) However, the fact that street parking exists is not an argument that electric cars are bad. They just don't work for folks that only have street parking. Much in the same way a Ford Expedition doesn't work for folks that live in Milan, Italy. (And, of course, a parking meter could be made to double as a charging station, if the will/$$ existed). Fleets are going to love electric vehicles. Amazed that the "new" postal van isn't going to be 90% electric instead of 10%. It's the poster child for electric vehicles: short range (mostly, except for rural routes), start-stop, low speed.  Not really amazed, but the rest of that thought is for PA. 

I charge with a L1 charger (8A typ, can go 12A) from an outlet in my garage. Could take 3 days if the car was completely drained down. We have L2 chargers at work, that with 4 hours of charging I got my complete commute (~60 mi) back in. So yup. Charging can be slow. Nice that I'm normally sleeping while the car charges, so I don't really care. Most of my days are <40miles, so the car is always charged. Unless I go to the office where I use the chargers there. Never once used or needed to use a charger anywhere else. I would not take my electric car (Chev Bolt) on a long road trip, I'd take a gasser for the obvious reasons. 

Most houses/condos could connect a L2 to a dryer outlet. I even have a subpanel ~10feet away from where my L1 is plugged in, but since I've never really needed a L2 at home, I've never put one in.

Lots of folks think "charge time" == "time I'm standing at the gas pump" and it's almost never that case. Real world charging is like your cell phone. Get home, plug it in, forget about it till the next day. Takes all of 2 seconds to plug the cord in. Or drive to work, plug it in, go work. 

 

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4 hours ago, boomer said:

Gas/Elecric Hybrids are still outselling electric. As we wean off of gas, I'd expect hydrogen cell/electric hybrids to capture much of the future market, till we're finally capable of shifting over to all electric vehicles. However, electric vehicles are the future, we just have a ways to go.

Hybrids Are Quietly Selling Faster Than Fully Electric Cars

Every Electric Vehicle That's Expected in the Next Five Years

Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles for a Sustainable Future

Kenworth begins taking orders for Class 8 electric truck

Every Electric Pickup Truck Currently on the Horizon

Best New EVs and Hybrids of 2021

Here's Every New Electric Vehicle Model for Sale in the U.S. in 2021

The end of gasoline/diesel isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. And hydrogen is finding its spot in grid-scale, not so much vehicles, because it has a hard time competing with the the existing gasoline/diesel infrastructure.

Electric vehicles only give the illusion of being advanced, they actually rely on a long and unstable supply chain of rare earth elements from China. Unless we see a profound shift in infrastructure or technology for batteries, we're going to see small (less than 500cc) gasoline engines as the secondary power source in plug-in electrics with 50 to 100 mile or so batteries ... 500 miles batteries are going to the domain of expensive luxury cars, much as they are now, but perhaps even more so.

As it stands, the environmental impact of a new electric vehicle is about the same as standard gasoline-only passenger car from the 1990s, except that we don't yet measure the impact of rare earth element extraction the way we measure the impact of airborne pollutants and carbon.

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2 hours ago, pbd said:
4 hours ago, IStream said:

I don't disagree but I think the charging infrastructure part will be harder than expected due to the ripple effects on the grid and the building/electrical codes. It's relatively simple to add charging at large public locations (grocery stores, etc) because there's already robust electrical service and one permit can cover numerous installations. However, the most useful charging point is at home with a level 2 unit. Unless it's a newer home with good electrical service and a garage, it can be difficult+expensive to get the level 2 infrastructure in place. Older homes that don't have good electrical service and that are limited on-street parking will be challenging to update without some sort of expedited permitting and subsidies for the installation of curbside charging. Once you reach a certain penetration, the poles need to be upgraded, etc, etc. I can all be done, of course, but I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer than 2030 to get there. 

EDIT: I should note that my (older, wealthier) neighborhood has seen the pole wiring being replaced/upgraded over the last few weeks so maybe Seattle is ahead of the game. I'd be surprised, but electrification is probably one of the only issues our dysfunctional city government seems to be able to agree on.

Expand  

Lest you forget all the folks that rely on street parking as they don't garages or even carports in their apartments or older homes.  Where does their charging station get placed?

Did you read my post? It specifically mentioned and was completely centered on folks who rely on street parking.

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Classic SA drift.  From help me find my next SUV to a "dicussion" of the future of the ICE, and whether pure electric, hydrogen, or something else should power that future :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, mikewof said:

The end of gasoline/diesel isn't going to happen in our lifetimes. And hydrogen is finding its spot in grid-scale, not so much vehicles, because it has a hard time competing with the the existing gasoline/diesel infrastructure.

Electric vehicles only give the illusion of being advanced, they actually rely on a long and unstable supply chain of rare earth elements from China. Unless we see a profound shift in infrastruct