Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Original Harry Proa design, 40' multi-hull. Day cruiser with small sleeping cabin. Custom designed for a local sailing school. Kit. Never fully put together and painted. Good condition. Some work required. Would make a great beginner project, as all pieces are available. Mast, sails and boat trailer included. Buyer must pay, and arrange for, shipping from Maine, USA. $6,000 Photos available upon request. Contact: Rockcoast88@gmail.com

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

Let's see how this thread goes

Good luck with the sale

Curious about that too! It has all those "magical" words...

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like the designer could post it on his website. We do that for clients and friends and it has been successful for selling dinghies.

Advertising on this forum is not usually okay unless you buy a classified add.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

you know. I am old enough to remember when Rob Denney went on yahoo group Proafile and dished one of Russell Brown's Pacific Proas, when it was for sale for only $30K. The essence was that it was not a great boat because the resale price was so low. From memory Rob said that was roughly equivalent to a set of new sails (which it may have been). $6K is not high resale, I think I saw some photos a week or so back and the condition is not great (this is from memory) , price is still low though

Link to post
Share on other sites
The boat was the first pro built Harry, by Mark Stephens.  He did his usual great job but we underquoted both time and cost.  Consequently, we did some free stuff and the top coat was not complete before it had to be loaded on the ship. 
It was not built as a kit.  All the parts are there, it 'just' needs cleaning up (20 odd years sitting outside), paint and assembly.
Apart from a novel walk through cockpit arrangement and a 30 hp engine bracket, both of which could easily be altered, it is standard for Harry's at the time.  Construction is strip planked cedar/epoxy/glass for the hulls, carbon/cedar beams and carbon rudders, unstayed mast and boom.  From memory the sails are by Pierre Gal, who also built the sails for a couple of other Harrys.   I am not sure what rudders are on the boat, but I will supply plans for the latest ones to the buyer if they wish to change them.  As with all Harryproas, I will give the new owner as much support as required.
 
At $6,000 it is a bargain for someone prepared to do some work and try something a little different.  
 
It has been advertised on the Harryproa chat group, which is currently having by far the deepest (and reasonable) discussion of proa attributes,  behaviour and options that I have seen in the near 25 years I have been posting to forums.  
 
RockCoast,
Paying for an ad is voluntary, the fuss is made by sanctimonious types who don't understand the meaning of anarchy and waste their time reading a post titled For SALE! so they can feel good about telling people how to behave.   If the boat sells to a reader, maybe send Scott (site owner) a cheque for 25 bucks (the cost of an ad) and a thank you note.
 
7 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

Let's see how this thread goes

sarcasm font on  
Yeah.  If it follows recent trends, Two Birds will accuse me of trolling; Janet will attest to my lack of scruples for not racing Bucket List; Russ will post some sanctimonious tripe, demand to know why no HP owners post on SA and how dare I mention proas when (apart from the ones I have told him about 10's of times), none have raced or crossed oceans; someone will tell him to behave and he will apologise or sulk, again; Ryan will denigrate me, then ask why we can't all just get along; Pil will tell us he 'doesn't get proas', but won't say why, someone will bring up some ancient history and someone else will mix up Pacific and Atlantic proas and Joe will post the photos of Jzerro and inform us that Harryproas are not Pacific proas.  None of them will discuss the boat in the topic or want to know anything about it.   
Interest in Harrys will increase as new readers want to know what it is about a boat and designer that can generate this much angst and aggression.
Then someone will accuse me of spoiling the thread.  ;-) 
 
Meanwhile, tomorrow I start assembling the 24m/80' 3,000 kgs/6,600 lbs, $AUS40,000/$US30,000 so far cargo proa prototype after 10 enjoyable months building the components and testing some interesting concepts and ideas.  All going well, it will be supplying a zero emissions freight service to remote Fijian villages by Christmas.
 
 
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

It seems like the designer could post it on his website. We do that for clients and friends and it has been successful for selling dinghies.

Advertising on this forum is not usually okay unless you buy a classified add.

And so it begins. Just can't help yourself can you 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, cynophobe said:

And so it begins. Just can't help yourself can you 

Actually, I meant that in a helpful way. The guy needs to sell his boat and having it on the designer's website was a good idea. Did it sound otherwise?

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, harryproa said:
The boat was the first pro built Harry, by Mark Stephens.  He did his usual great job but we underquoted both time and cost.  Consequently, we did some free stuff and the top coat was not complete before it had to be loaded on the ship. 
It was not built as a kit.  All the parts are there, it 'just' needs cleaning up (20 odd years sitting outside), paint and assembly.
Apart from a novel walk through cockpit arrangement and a 30 hp engine bracket, both of which could easily be altered, it is standard for Harry's at the time.  Construction is strip planked cedar/epoxy/glass for the hulls, carbon/cedar beams and carbon rudders, unstayed mast and boom.  From memory the sails are by Pierre Gal, who also built the sails for a couple of other Harrys.   I am not sure what rudders are on the boat, but I will supply plans for the latest ones to the buyer if they wish to change them.  As with all Harryproas, I will give the new owner as much support as required.
 
At $6,000 it is a bargain for someone prepared to do some work and try something a little different.  
 
It has been advertised on the Harryproa chat group, which is currently having by far the deepest (and reasonable) discussion of proa attributes,  behaviour and options that I have seen in the near 25 years I have been posting to forums.  
 
RockCoast,
Paying for an ad is voluntary, the fuss is made by sanctimonious types who don't understand the meaning of anarchy and waste their time reading a post titled For SALE! so they can feel good about telling people how to behave.   If the boat sells to a reader, maybe send Scott (site owner) a cheque for 25 bucks (the cost of an ad) and a thank you note.
 
sarcasm font on  
Yeah.  If it follows recent trends, Two Birds will accuse me of trolling; Janet will attest to my lack of scruples for not racing Bucket List; Russ will post some sanctimonious tripe, demand to know why no HP owners post on SA and how dare I mention proas when (apart from the ones I have told him about 10's of times), none have raced or crossed oceans; someone will tell him to behave and he will apologise or sulk, again; Ryan will denigrate me, then ask why we can't all just get along; Pil will tell us he 'doesn't get proas', but won't say why, someone will bring up some ancient history and someone else will mix up Pacific and Atlantic proas and Joe will post the photos of Jzerro and inform us that Harryproas are not Pacific proas.  None of them will discuss the boat in the topic or want to know anything about it.   
Interest in Harrys will increase as new readers want to know what it is about a boat and designer that can generate this much angst and aggression.
Then someone will accuse me of spoiling the thread.  ;-) 
 
Meanwhile, tomorrow I start assembling the 24m/80' 3,000 kgs/6,600 lbs, $AUS40,000/$US30,000 so far cargo proa prototype after 10 enjoyable months building the components and testing some interesting concepts and ideas.  All going well, it will be supplying a zero emissions freight service to remote Fijian villages by Christmas.
 
 

Why don't you just stay on the Harryproa Chat group? Seems like a no-brainer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

wow..... what a nice group. nicer than i. here goes.....

fuck off newbie,

show us your wife/girlfriends tits,

and for fuck's sake buy an ad.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly, let me apologize for any missteps in forum protocol, or disruption, this thread may have caused. Yes, I am new to this forum. I inherited this proa when my father passed away suddenly a few years ago. Like most of you, I'm sure, he spent his entire life working hard while building boats on the side so he could follow that pull to the water. He was able to turn that passion into some long hours and back-breaking work as a staple in the local harbor here in Maine (I'd say Google him - you'd get some great stories - but trolls will be trolls), just to be out there. Every year was the year he hoped to retire and get the Proa out. Unfortunately, the daily grind and health got him before he was able to see that happen. I do not know all the exact reasons this was never completed, because I know it was always on his mind. He was a lot of things - an old salt, a genius curmudgeon - and he taught me more about life than I care to get into, but as a young woman, sailing was not one of the things I was interested in. A regret of mine now, for sure! That said, with small children, and little knowledge, this project is not something my aging mother and I are able to undertake. It deserves to find someone who will appreciate it fully. 

So, here we are. In a niche forum with a boat we always knew had a very specific audience (my father wouldn't have loved it so much if it wasn't something different - especially in the North Atlantic). Drag us through the coals if you must (for any number of reasons). We know there are strong opinions and many experts in this passionate universe. We have been lucky enough to learn a bit as we navigate the journey to get the proa into the right hands, but admittedly, STILL haven't mastered all the nuances of the sailing world. We're grateful for the insight Rob has provided, when he's been able, and have had a few kind strangers give us advice along the way as well - leading us to this forum for example. 

Yes, this very same boat had been originally posted in ads and other forums at $30K (as we had been advised it could be worth that). Yes, this post might have all the "magical" words, but that is because bullet points are all we know in this instance. Nothing to hide. We have additional pictures. It's becoming increasingly more dangerous for our kids to play in the yard with the boat there, and we don't want to spend more money to re-shore it/house it knowing we won't be able to ever get to it ourselves. What we really want is for it to get to a person who will love it. Period. If that happens to be someone here, we would be overjoyed! If not, please scroll on, we appreciate that small kindness. 

  • Like 12
Link to post
Share on other sites

hi Rock , post a thread with pics here : ...............................

 

fok , hey @Editor wtf happened to classified anarchy ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

You'll be able to sell that boat, Rock. Your post will help "calm the seas" here. It can be an unfriendly place, but lots of good people too. It's a good time to sell any boat and there are a lot of proa nuts in the woods. How else are you advertising?

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, harryproa said:
 
 
sarcasm font on  
Yeah.  If it follows recent trends, Two Birds will accuse me of trolling; Janet will attest to my lack of scruples for not racing Bucket List; Russ will post some sanctimonious tripe, demand to know why no HP owners post on SA and how dare I mention proas when (apart from the ones I have told him about 10's of times), none have raced or crossed oceans; someone will tell him to behave and he will apologise or sulk, again; Ryan will denigrate me, then ask why we can't all just get along; Pil will tell us he 'doesn't get proas', but won't say why, someone will bring up some ancient history and someone else will mix up Pacific and Atlantic proas and Joe will post the photos of Jzerro and inform us that Harryproas are not Pacific proas.  None of them will discuss the boat in the topic or want to know anything about it.   
Interest in Harrys will increase as new readers want to know what it is about a boat and designer that can generate this much angst and aggression.
Then someone will accuse me of spoiling the thread.  ;-) 
 
Meanwhile, tomorrow I start assembling the 24m/80' 3,000 kgs/6,600 lbs, $AUS40,000/$US30,000 so far cargo proa prototype after 10 enjoyable months building the components and testing some interesting concepts and ideas.  All going well, it will be supplying a zero emissions freight service to remote Fijian villages by Christmas.
 
 

I have said this somewhere before Rob

I believe $ for $ the standard cat / tri beats a proa in all areas. Performance / volume / ease of use / safety / Handling / Life expectancy........  and all this comes at a higher price but the resale more than balances this out. The proof is in the numbers and the amount of secondhand proas  / tris / cats still out there being used and cared for....... all in my humble opinion.... The overwhelming amount will agree, you will not. That's cool

 

The figures above on your latest build don't add up.... 10 months working on this must be part time with no overheads or rent on your workshop....? Maybe materials only...?

All builders i know have an hourly rate of $60-$110 an hour.... That's $72000 if you work 6 hour day at $60 per hour. I assume you aren't adding in your labour...?

BTW... I'm not having a crack here. I'm genuinely interested in how this build goes.

Pil

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Good luck with your sale of the Harry Proa, It should sell at that price. I think it is a large enough size to be practical, and although not a layout I prefer, (wtw), for that style it is designed well. Being epoxy composite, and stored on land, it should not have degraded over the years. As to the harry proa cargo, nice concept, my  2 cents is that the l/w ratio is too high. I suspect that a lower ratio say 15to 1 vs 20 to 1 would give more carrying capacity at ,marginally slower speed. (the 20 to 1 ratio I am going off memory here) the thinking is that it is not as important if freight moves as fast as people,  personally would prefer a vee bottom, even at 45 degrees, give it that strength in the. Maybe a larger proa with a 14 to 1 ratio might make more economic sense, in terms of economic return vs investment. Of course this is subjective opinion. Maybe a wider hull that travels at only 9 or 10 knots but carry more may make more dollars. Going slower means fewer trips per year, however each trip could carry more.  Obviously you have your own way, you may well be right, it so good luck to you

Link to post
Share on other sites

The price 30K or 6K isnt the problem - the problem is it is very few people out there that would take on a project like that - so if you can find any - just give it away if the collect it to no cost of yours. (or maybe deliver it for free  next 2-3 states) - the best to hope for is that someone finishes it.  I didnt find any pics - but maybe another idea is to redesign it - see if some of the parts can be used for other things or transformed to cats or tris. About buying an ad - thist post generates more trafikk than most others - it seems - som its good anyway for the forum. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

I believe $ for $ the standard cat / tri beats a proa in all areas. Performance / volume / ease of use / safety / Handling / Life expectancy........  and all this comes at a higher price but the resale more than balances this out. The proof is in the numbers and the amount of secondhand proas  / tris / cats still out there being used and cared for....... all in my humble opinion.... The overwhelming amount will agree, you will not. That's cool

I know you weren't addressing me and I think you are right, but my last two proas sold for serious money. They sold for at least what a comparable volume wood/epoxy multihull with similar performance would sell for. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

We appreciate everyone’s input.  Navigating these waters has proven to be much more complicated than we would have imagined and your insight and thoughts are invaluable.  Russell, we had advertised the boat locally and made a number of calls to local yards, brokers, etc.  The response has been, as has been suggested in this thread, the boat is unique, particularly for the New England market.  This is no doubt why my father was so enamored with it.

We are certainly not opposed to purchasing advertising.  If anyone has suggestions as to where they think an ad is likely to reach what we know will need to be a very specific type of buyer, we’d be most appreciative.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know there's an actual add with photos and a description because I've seen it, but where is it?

We could link to that add on other forums and that would save you getting yelled at for advertising. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I know you weren't addressing me and I think you are right, but my last two proas sold for serious money. They sold for at least what a comparable volume wood/epoxy multihull with similar performance would sell for. 

Your boats are very much an exception to the rule as is Sidecar / Ryan Finn..... And I personally would love to have ride.. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

Your boats are very much an exception to the rule as is Sidecar / Ryan Finn..... And I personally would love to have ride.. 

Pill, the  invitation is still there. Sidecar comes out of the water near the end of June for approx four months for the next round of mods/ maintenance.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is sort of in my neck of the woods... surprisingly never seen/heard about it. There was a proa in Camden harbor for a number of years, though I never actually saw it sail.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll toss $75 in a hat toward buying/outfitting it for one of the proa skeptics. Only need 3-400 more anarchists to step up and we've got ourselves a new build thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Zonker, 

Assuming all the bits we built are there, it needs a coat of paint and assembly.  For $6k it is a bargain for someone not intimidated by the unusual.  

Dex, 

At least 2 people are having a look this weekend with that purpose in mind.  I am sure they would appreciate your offer.  :-)

On 5/4/2021 at 4:26 PM, peterAustralia said:

As to the harry proa cargo, nice concept, my  2 cents is that the l/w ratio is too high. I suspect that a lower ratio say 15to 1 vs 20 to 1 would give more carrying capacity at ,marginally slower speed. (the 20 to 1 ratio I am going off memory here) the thinking is that it is not as important if freight moves as fast as people,  personally would prefer a vee bottom, even at 45 degrees, give it that strength in the. Maybe a larger proa with a 14 to 1 ratio might make more economic sense, in terms of economic return vs investment. Of course this is subjective opinion. Maybe a wider hull that travels at only 9 or 10 knots but carry more may make more dollars. Going slower means fewer trips per year, however each trip could carry more.  Obviously you have your own way, you may well be right, it so good luck to you

You might be right, but one of the reasons for building this boat is to test some limits and try new ideas.  It is long so it will carry the weight, yet still have small enough hull panels not to need core.  The components also have to be light and tough enough to be manhandled up a beach for repairs or to sit out cyclones.  Long and skinny weighs and costs less and requires smaller sails and auxillary than short and not so skinny.  It is also faster and safer, with a nicer motion.  

Economic return is not one of the priorities. These are: supplying a low capital cost, easily built, zero emissions, reliable, regular service to remote villages, making the villages viable.  Many regular trips with small cargoes rather than the current once in 3 (or more) months with large cargoes. However, the cargo proa with miniscule overheads, only 2  crew and able to operate non stop is far more likely to have an economic return than the 20+ crew on often decrepit, diesel burning ships which are dry docked for a month every 2 years, only operate when there is enough cargo to justify a trip, are too deep to enter the lagoons, much less land on the beaches and operated by Govt subsidy.

It has to perform, which is about more than speed.   The Pacific is littered with 'feel good' western designed boats that don't sail upwind, (and are built from unsuitable materials), making them useless for many cargo routes.   The cargo proa should sail upwind well.   There is also the cultural aspect.  The people who will be operating these boats are descendants of the best sailors and navigators the world has known, and extremely proud of it.  They will get a lot of status from sailing a boat derived from their traditional boats.  "Overtaking the diesel burners" was an oft stated wish and a smile when the cargo proa was being discussed.

V hulls were considered, along with all the other options we could think of.  Minimising wetted surface, draft, build complexity, weight, time and cost all favoured the box section hulls.  The construction time and ease of build have validated this choice, we will see how well they perform.  Because it is a proa, the narrow lee hull will be pressed down in big breezes/heavy seas so slamming is minimal.  If the ww hull slaps the water, it is an indication that it is time to reduce sail.  

Big day yesterday.  Set up the hulls and the beams outside.  Looks pretty good.  The installation process for the beams became clear, although the idea of launching and floating the bits down the nearby creek/trickle and assembling it in the mud where it enters the river became more challenging.  We also figured out how to make the telescoping mast sections from flat panels.   Pics and discussion on https://groups.io/g/HarryProa,   https://www.facebook.com/Harryproa/?ref=page_internal    https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/80-foot-cargo-harryproa.64736/page-7#post-906743 and http://harryproa.com/?p=3788 

On 5/4/2021 at 2:31 PM, PIL66 - XL2 said:

I have said this somewhere before Rob

I believe $ for $ the standard cat / tri beats a proa in all areas. volume / ease of use / safety / Handling / Life expectancy/performance

Yeah, you have said it often.  But you have never said why, which was my point. The following are some examples of why I think you are wrong. Maybe you could address them.

Compare the C50 (15m/50') Harryproa with XL2 (Pil's 38'/11m cat, which I used to race and occasionally cruise), before the mods after you capsized it.  Substitute another cat design if you want to.  

Volume:    It ain't how much you have, it's how you use it.  The C50 and XL2 both weigh 3 and a bit tonnes/tons.  The C50 has 2 double cabins (XL2: 2 double beds), each with en suites (XL2: porta potti), and 2 single cabins (XL2: 2 single beds in the bows),  a table for 8 (XL2: eat off your lap sitting on the hatch steps), respectable galley (XL2: 2 burner cooker and eski) and enough outside seating space for 20 people (similar).  The C50 has less surface area and significantly lower loads.  

Ease of use:  It takes 4 people to race XL2 efficiently,  the C50 2 as it is so much simpler.  Cruising XL2 was hard work due to the difficulty of increasing/reducing and handling the sails and the fear factor when sailing at night or in squalls in a boat which cannot depower efficiently.  

Safety/handling:   On a Harryproa there is no need to go on the foredeck, no extras, no flogging sails or sheets, no white knuckle gybes or backing the headsail/easing the mainsail to tack.  Raising, reefing and lowering the sails can be done singlehanded at any windspeed, on any point of sail.  Sea anchors are launched from the cockpit, not the bow.  There are no fixed appendages or holes beneath the waterline and no daggerboards, the oversize rudders kick up in a collision.  The C50 can be dried out in 300mm/12" of water, making beaching in a storm viable.  In a MOB situation, the C50 would have got back to the MOB before XL2 had completed it's first tack. If the mast breaks on XL2, injuries are almost certain.  On the C50 they are almost impossible.

Life expectancy: Both should last a long time (XL2 is 30 odd years old,  on it's 3rd mast, several daggerboards, sets of rigging and sails, plus at least one major refit and a rebuild.  The oldest sailing Harrys are 10+ years old.     The Harryproas need far less maintenance.  There is nothing to do on the unstayed masts apart from a coat of paint every 10+ years.  There are no daggerboard cases, metal to corrode or expensive deck gear to replace.  

Cost:  The C50 is built from infused foam and glass, does not require complicated moulds, needs minimal fairing, has only 2 sails and very little deck gear.  XL2 is vac bagged kevlar/foam/glass, needs several moulds and is a chandler's and sailmaker's dream.  Based on this, the build cost of the C50 would be about 2/3rds that of XL2.  Please correct me if you have any better numbers, but I doubt there would be much change from $AUS600k to get a replacement XL2 built?  

Resale:  The harryproas sold have been because the owner has died and the family wants to get rid of the boat.  This is too small a sample to give meaningful results.  I have no idea what you paid for XL2, or what you could sell it for?  Maybe $200,000?  That is a $400,000 loss, which is about the cost of the C50, so the purchase vs resale is very much in Harryproa's favour.  

Performance: There is no evidence for this as there are no C50's sailing yet, but based on it's predecessor (similar weight and size 2/3rds the sail area, ballestron instead of schooner rig), I would expect the following:   Happy to discuss it if you have reasons why not.  Fully crewed, XL2 is quicker, partly as it has had a heap more tuning time.  White sails only, probably not.  Short handed or solo, probably quicker in a straight line, but cornering and sail changing, the C50 would win out.  Long distances, the ease of sailing the C50 would make it pretty potent.  Big breezes/waves, the C50 could be pushed much harder, safely.     Put a novice crew on both and the C50 would romp away.  

On 5/4/2021 at 2:31 PM, PIL66 - XL2 said:

The figures above on your latest build don't add up.... 10 months working on this must be part time with no overheads or rent on your workshop....? Maybe materials only...?

All builders i know have an hourly rate of $60-$110 an hour.... That's $72000 if you work 6 hour day at $60 per hour. I assume you aren't adding in your labour...?

Obviously, or I would not have split them up.  

The cargo proa project is interesting enough that the local University provided the shed, overheads, access to a machine shop and an engineer to do the number crunching, gratis.  Their reasoning:

"It is an exciting project creating lots of opportunities because: 

  • It is a project that is closely related to a number of UQ’s core values, viz. to create change, to positively influence society, to shape the future, to develop and inspire the next generation leaders, to advance ideas that benefit the world.
  • Rob Denney has a long history of successful, innovative boat building, and initiating and delivering creative projects.
  • It has the potential to provide extended marketing opportunities for UQ in the areas of sustainability and composite materials."

As well, I provide composite materials students with some real, practical state of the art fibreglass experience.  We have had a dozen of them so far, including 2 who are investigating recycling plastic vacuum bags into cargo boxes and another doing his thesis on the fibreglass truss beam build method we developed.  There were several offers of volunteer labour from around the world, screwed by Covid.  One local (sort of, he drives 2 hours a day to work on the boat) came for a week at the beginning to see what it was all about, became immersed in the project and is still there.   Another is arriving next month.

The actual boat was not started until September last year, so 8 months rather than 10 so far.   Which doesn't take into account the testing, experimenting and simplifying we did to ensure that the next one will be built far quicker, hopefully by unskilled workers in a remote Pacific location.    

Regardless, charge what hours, rates and overheads you think it should be and compare it to an 80' cat.....  Or any other offshore capable multi.

On 5/4/2021 at 2:31 PM, PIL66 - XL2 said:

BTW... I'm not having a crack here. I'm genuinely interested in how this build goes.

Yeah, I know.  It is why you are so encouraging and so knowledgable about it.

On 5/5/2021 at 12:16 AM, Russell Brown said:

I know you weren't addressing me and I think you are right, but my last two proas sold for serious money. They sold for at least what a comparable volume wood/epoxy multihull with similar performance would sell for. 

Well done!   The whole point of a modern proa is that it is quicker to build and lighter, hence cheaper than equivalent volume/performance cats and tris.     so building them more expensive is quite a feat.      Which "comparable volume wood/epoxy multihull with similar performance" selling prices are you comparing to?

Or are you referring to second hand boats? Would these be Jzerro and Cimba?  Which "comparable volume wood/epoxy multihull with similar performance"  selling prices are you comparing them to?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I love the idea of proas, but I don't love the idea of unpainted fiberglass sitting in a backyard in Maine for 20 years. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, harryproa said:

Or are you referring to second hand boats? Would these be Jzerro and Cimba?  Which "comparable volume wood/epoxy multihull with similar performance"  selling prices are you comparing them to?

 

I think it may be safe to say that my last two proas sold for more than any other proas have sold for, despite misinformation to the contrary. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like the generally helpful nature of this site.  You helped me with my ad, and my G32 found a great home which was only advertised on S.A.     At the time I was literally half dead and was treated kindly by all of you.  You are in good hands.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To compare the Shockwave 39 and the C50 - they dont match ....   but one question; these flat panels and totally flat bottom and sides of the Harry-proas; ok its easier to build the panels - but since the dont use the strenght of curved sections they need to be heavier buildt, use more materials - and how are they working in the sea?  When we see those very long slender and boxy hulls  - it really seem strange. A flat section that slams in the sea - it get shockloads more curved shapes would never get.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/16/2021 at 9:02 PM, harryproa said:

Zonker, 

Assuming all the bits we built are there, it needs a coat of paint and assembly.  For $6k it is a bargain for someone not intimidated by the unusual.  

Dex, 

At least 2 people are having a look this weekend with that purpose in mind.  I am sure they would appreciate your offer.  :-)

You might be right, but one of the reasons for building this boat is to test some limits and try new ideas.  It is long so it will carry the weight, yet still have small enough hull panels not to need core.  The components also have to be light and tough enough to be manhandled up a beach for repairs or to sit out cyclones.  Long and skinny weighs and costs less and requires smaller sails and auxillary than short and not so skinny.  It is also faster and safer, with a nicer motion.  

Economic return is not one of the priorities. These are: supplying a low capital cost, easily built, zero emissions, reliable, regular service to remote villages, making the villages viable.  Many regular trips with small cargoes rather than the current once in 3 (or more) months with large cargoes. However, the cargo proa with miniscule overheads, only 2  crew and able to operate non stop is far more likely to have an economic return than the 20+ crew on often decrepit, diesel burning ships which are dry docked for a month every 2 years, only operate when there is enough cargo to justify a trip, are too deep to enter the lagoons, much less land on the beaches and operated by Govt subsidy.

It has to perform, which is about more than speed.   The Pacific is littered with 'feel good' western designed boats that don't sail upwind, (and are built from unsuitable materials), making them useless for many cargo routes.   The cargo proa should sail upwind well.   There is also the cultural aspect.  The people who will be operating these boats are descendants of the best sailors and navigators the world has known, and extremely proud of it.  They will get a lot of status from sailing a boat derived from their traditional boats.  "Overtaking the diesel burners" was an oft stated wish and a smile when the cargo proa was being discussed.

V hulls were considered, along with all the other options we could think of.  Minimising wetted surface, draft, build complexity, weight, time and cost all favoured the box section hulls.  The construction time and ease of build have validated this choice, we will see how well they perform.  Because it is a proa, the narrow lee hull will be pressed down in big breezes/heavy seas so slamming is minimal.  If the ww hull slaps the water, it is an indication that it is time to reduce sail.  

Big day yesterday.  Set up the hulls and the beams outside.  Looks pretty good.  The installation process for the beams became clear, although the idea of launching and floating the bits down the nearby creek/trickle and assembling it in the mud where it enters the river became more challenging.  We also figured out how to make the telescoping mast sections from flat panels.   Pics and discussion on https://groups.io/g/HarryProa,   https://www.facebook.com/Harryproa/?ref=page_internal    https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/80-foot-cargo-harryproa.64736/page-7#post-906743 and http://harryproa.com/?p=3788 

Yeah, you have said it often.  But you have never said why, which was my point. The following are some examples of why I think you are wrong. Maybe you could address them.

Compare the C50 (15m/50') Harryproa with XL2 (Pil's 38'/11m cat, which I used to race and occasionally cruise), before the mods after you capsized it.  Substitute another cat design if you want to.  

Volume:    It ain't how much you have, it's how you use it.  The C50 and XL2 both weigh 3 and a bit tonnes/tons.  The C50 has 2 double cabins (XL2: 2 double beds), each with en suites (XL2: porta potti), and 2 single cabins (XL2: 2 single beds in the bows),  a table for 8 (XL2: eat off your lap sitting on the hatch steps), respectable galley (XL2: 2 burner cooker and eski) and enough outside seating space for 20 people (similar).  The C50 has less surface area and significantly lower loads.  

Ease of use:  It takes 4 people to race XL2 efficiently,  the C50 2 as it is so much simpler.  Cruising XL2 was hard work due to the difficulty of increasing/reducing and handling the sails and the fear factor when sailing at night or in squalls in a boat which cannot depower efficiently.  

Safety/handling:   On a Harryproa there is no need to go on the foredeck, no extras, no flogging sails or sheets, no white knuckle gybes or backing the headsail/easing the mainsail to tack.  Raising, reefing and lowering the sails can be done singlehanded at any windspeed, on any point of sail.  Sea anchors are launched from the cockpit, not the bow.  There are no fixed appendages or holes beneath the waterline and no daggerboards, the oversize rudders kick up in a collision.  The C50 can be dried out in 300mm/12" of water, making beaching in a storm viable.  In a MOB situation, the C50 would have got back to the MOB before XL2 had completed it's first tack. If the mast breaks on XL2, injuries are almost certain.  On the C50 they are almost impossible.

Life expectancy: Both should last a long time (XL2 is 30 odd years old,  on it's 3rd mast, several daggerboards, sets of rigging and sails, plus at least one major refit and a rebuild.  The oldest sailing Harrys are 10+ years old.     The Harryproas need far less maintenance.  There is nothing to do on the unstayed masts apart from a coat of paint every 10+ years.  There are no daggerboard cases, metal to corrode or expensive deck gear to replace.  

Cost:  The C50 is built from infused foam and glass, does not require complicated moulds, needs minimal fairing, has only 2 sails and very little deck gear.  XL2 is vac bagged kevlar/foam/glass, needs several moulds and is a chandler's and sailmaker's dream.  Based on this, the build cost of the C50 would be about 2/3rds that of XL2.  Please correct me if you have any better numbers, but I doubt there would be much change from $AUS600k to get a replacement XL2 built?  

Resale:  The harryproas sold have been because the owner has died and the family wants to get rid of the boat.  This is too small a sample to give meaningful results.  I have no idea what you paid for XL2, or what you could sell it for?  Maybe $200,000?  That is a $400,000 loss, which is about the cost of the C50, so the purchase vs resale is very much in Harryproa's favour.  

Performance: There is no evidence for this as there are no C50's sailing yet, but based on it's predecessor (similar weight and size 2/3rds the sail area, ballestron instead of schooner rig), I would expect the following:   Happy to discuss it if you have reasons why not.  Fully crewed, XL2 is quicker, partly as it has had a heap more tuning time.  White sails only, probably not.  Short handed or solo, probably quicker in a straight line, but cornering and sail changing, the C50 would win out.  Long distances, the ease of sailing the C50 would make it pretty potent.  Big breezes/waves, the C50 could be pushed much harder, safely.     Put a novice crew on both and the C50 would romp away.  

Obviously, or I would not have split them up.  

The cargo proa project is interesting enough that the local University provided the shed, overheads, access to a machine shop and an engineer to do the number crunching, gratis.  Their reasoning:

"It is an exciting project creating lots of opportunities because: 

  • It is a project that is closely related to a number of UQ’s core values, viz. to create change, to positively influence society, to shape the future, to develop and inspire the next generation leaders, to advance ideas that benefit the world.
  • Rob Denney has a long history of successful, innovative boat building, and initiating and delivering creative projects.
  • It has the potential to provide extended marketing opportunities for UQ in the areas of sustainability and composite materials."

As well, I provide composite materials students with some real, practical state of the art fibreglass experience.  We have had a dozen of them so far, including 2 who are investigating recycling plastic vacuum bags into cargo boxes and another doing his thesis on the fibreglass truss beam build method we developed.  There were several offers of volunteer labour from around the world, screwed by Covid.  One local (sort of, he drives 2 hours a day to work on the boat) came for a week at the beginning to see what it was all about, became immersed in the project and is still there.   Another is arriving next month.

The actual boat was not started until September last year, so 8 months rather than 10 so far.   Which doesn't take into account the testing, experimenting and simplifying we did to ensure that the next one will be built far quicker, hopefully by unskilled workers in a remote Pacific location.    

Regardless, charge what hours, rates and overheads you think it should be and compare it to an 80' cat.....  Or any other offshore capable multi.

Yeah, I know.  It is why you are so encouraging and so knowledgable about it.

Well done!   The whole point of a modern proa is that it is quicker to build and lighter, hence cheaper than equivalent volume/performance cats and tris.     so building them more expensive is quite a feat.      Which "comparable volume wood/epoxy multihull with similar performance" selling prices are you comparing to?

Or are you referring to second hand boats? Would these be Jzerro and Cimba?  Which "comparable volume wood/epoxy multihull with similar performance"  selling prices are you comparing them to?

 

I don't have the time or energy to respond to this...... it reminds of a Seinfeld episode.... Jerry asks George how he makes stuff up regularly and George replies... Jerry, If you believe it, it is true..... 
I can give hundreds of thousands of real life examples built and you have a few........ i rest my case...

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/17/2021 at 3:43 AM, BeatmongerZ said:

I love the idea of proas, but I don't love the idea of unpainted fiberglass sitting in a backyard in Maine for 20 years. 

According to someone who has seen it:  

"I went up and had a look at the one in Maine. Sitting for 20 years hasn't done it any favors but it appears the build quality is good from what I saw of of the glass work inside. Looks to be worth saving for someone that has the skills."  He did not say what those skills are, but if the structure is sound, they will be assembling, painting and then sailing a unique boat.

On 5/17/2021 at 5:27 PM, SeaGul said:

To compare the Shockwave 39 and the C50 - they dont match ....   but one question; these flat panels and totally flat bottom and sides of the Harry-proas; ok its easier to build the panels - but since the dont use the strenght of curved sections they need to be heavier buildt, use more materials - and how are they working in the sea?  When we see those very long slender and boxy hulls  - it really seem strange. A flat section that slams in the sea - it get shockloads more curved shapes would never get.

True,  they don't match.  Which is my point.  The question is, If you were offered the attributes of both, without knowing what they were, which would you choose?  

The panels have thicker foam in the areas where we cannot stiffen them with furniture or structure.  There are not many of these if you design the boat accordingly. The added weight is more than offset by not needing to install floors and the additional headroom they require. The cargo proa requires thicker skin for impact and wear resistance, so we were able to eliminate the foam, a big cost and QC saving.  

If the lee hull is designed long, light and narrow (~20:1 length:beam), with minimal structure forward of the beam,  slamming is less than on most multihulls. In conditions (decent breeze) where it is likely, the long lee hull is loaded and rarely comes out of the water far enough back to slam on re entry.  The weather hull bow is well aft of the lee hull bow, so does not slam as hard unless it flies.  If it does, it is an indication that it is time to reduce sail.  The unstayed rig also helps a lot.  It's flexibility softens the blow compared to a craft where the rigging transfers the mast and sail motion directly into the hull.      Both hulls are plenty strong/stiff enough to resist any slamming loads that do occur.  The worst one is the windward hull hitting the water when righting after a capsize.  I have yet to damage a hull doing this, but did manage to break the beams on an earlier prototype.

Sailing a Harryproa upwind in a big sea is a novel experience.  The offset bows rise together over a wave and there is none of the corkscrew motion of a cat.  The crew and cog being at the centre also reduces the pitching motion.  I have sailed them in big seas with seasick prone people, none of whom were.  

On 5/18/2021 at 10:32 AM, PIL66 - XL2 said:

I don't have the time or energy to respond to this...... it reminds of a Seinfeld episode.... Jerry asks George how he makes stuff up regularly and George replies... Jerry, If you believe it, it is true..... 
I can give hundreds of thousands of real life examples built and you have a few........ i rest my case...

Time to make the personal remarks and the claims,  no time to validate them.....   No worries.  I only posted so that potential purchasers of the Maine Harryproa could determine 1) those who had nothing to back up what they were saying and 2) those who were spruiking their competing product with unproven, dubious (and unpaid for ;-)) claims.  QED.  On the same subject, I thank the other people I mentioned in my May 3 sarcasm post for not trying to derail Jesse's sale.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 months later...

This boat was purchased, and brought to Walter Greene's yard, Greene Marine, in Yarmouth, ME. The hulls, crossarms, and mast were complete, un-assembled. The new owner began working on it, sporadically. We were available, for materials, advice, and support. One morning, when we arrived, he had, for no discernible reason, cut up both hulls, and abandoned the rest. Heartbreaking! We never saw him again, and have no clue why he did that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, SaiLogic said:

This boat was purchased, and brought to Walter Greene's yard, Greene Marine, in Yarmouth, ME. The hulls, crossarms, and mast were complete, un-assembled. The new owner began working on it, sporadically. We were available, for materials, advice, and support. One morning, when we arrived, he had, for no discernible reason, cut up both hulls, and abandoned the rest. Heartbreaking! We never saw him again, and have no clue why he did that.

No one ever knows what goes on in a Proa owners head. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...