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I love the idea, but I don't like their boundary conditions. I was thinking a Class 30 should be something bigger and faster than a Mini 6.5, but significantly easier to handle and afford than a Class 40. The boats should be designed for double or singlehanded offshore racing, and designed to keep the costs for a competitive campaign under, I dunno, let's say $300K UDS (about 1/3 of a Class 40). From the article it sounds more like they're trying to invent some new universal club boat that's designed to a price point. Go nuts, but don't call it a Class 30. 

 

Class Mini = Single handed offshore

Class 30 = Inshore club boat? Fuck that. Single or double handed offshore. Duh. 

Class 40 = Double handed offshore

Class IMOCA = Single handed and crewed offshore

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13 hours ago, Some.Rando said:

I love the idea, but I don't like their boundary conditions. I was thinking a Class 30 should be something bigger and faster than a Mini 6.5, but significantly easier to handle and afford than a Class 40. The boats should be designed for double or singlehanded offshore racing, and designed to keep the costs for a competitive campaign under, I dunno, let's say $300K UDS (about 1/3 of a Class 40). From the article it sounds more like they're trying to invent some new universal club boat that's designed to a price point. Go nuts, but don't call it a Class 30. 

 

Class Mini = Single handed offshore

Class 30 = Inshore club boat? Fuck that. Single or double handed offshore. Duh. 

Class 40 = Double handed offshore

Class IMOCA = Single handed and crewed offshore

i only hope that they'll make a box rule and let everybody try to fight for podium, cus one design is good and all but it slows down hull evolution

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I agree with pironiero as a box rule or type form would help push some boundaries and attract more designers/builders.

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1 hour ago, pironiero said:

i only hope that they'll make a box rule and let everybody try to fight for podium, cus one design is good and all but it slows down hull evolution

Box rule with limits to keep cost down?  The mini proto / series arrangement seems to work well. Minis are just a bit too small to be more than a race boat.  A class 30 could have a life beyond racing.  A fast, seaworthy, easily handled, affordable 30 footer should be able to find a wide market.

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14 hours ago, Some.Rando said:

I love the idea, but I don't like their boundary conditions. I was thinking a Class 30 should be something bigger and faster than a Mini 6.5, but significantly easier to handle and afford than a Class 40. The boats should be designed for double or singlehanded offshore racing, and designed to keep the costs for a competitive campaign under, I dunno, let's say $300K UDS (about 1/3 of a Class 40). From the article it sounds more like they're trying to invent some new universal club boat that's designed to a price point. Go nuts, but don't call it a Class 30. 

 

Class Mini = Single handed offshore

Class 30 = Inshore club boat? Fuck that. Single or double handed offshore. Duh. 

Class 40 = Double handed offshore

Class IMOCA = Single handed and crewed offshore

Wholeheartedly agree. Hopefully it'll be a box rule like a revival of the classe 950?
But please, not too much IRC typeforming.

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17 hours ago, Some.Rando said:

Class 30 = Inshore club boat? Fuck that. Single or double handed offshore. Duh. 

1/2 handed racing needs high sponsorship value (e.g. Mini / Figaro) or owner-drivers / owner-patrons. I don't think you could make the numbers work for club boats, the membership fees would have to be huge.

More generally I think these projects that try and manage down the upfront cost of ownership are missing the point. A marina berth and a good bottom job costs the same whether the boat is £25k or £250k. You can always choose to race with Dacron sails and in most fleets will be able to do perfectly well with them.

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26 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

Mt Gay 30...

every 10 years it seems

Mt Gay 30

Classe 950

this one....

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4 hours ago, bridhb said:

Box rule with limits to keep cost down?  The mini proto / series arrangement seems to work well. Minis are just a bit too small to be more than a race boat.  A class 30 could have a life beyond racing.  A fast, seaworthy, easily handled, affordable 30 footer should be able to find a wide market.

That's how the class 40 got started and lost sight of that vision after the first generation.  Hard to avoid when sponsors want to win.

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Ahem. Sorry, this seat's been taken...

image.thumb.png.368f6c3c8d68baf3b267fb9f34fceb0b.png

In earnest. That's too broad a design brief. 30 to 32 feet seems ok for inshore with six, Mumm 30 like, but who would want that for a two or three day race?

Sure, this one is legend, but it is also madness and made us shiver a bit:

image.png.3b8dc858823ab86f65c604479dd7de4a.png

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42 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Ahem. Sorry, this seat's been taken...

image.thumb.png.368f6c3c8d68baf3b267fb9f34fceb0b.png

In earnest. That's too broad a design brief. 30 to 32 feet seems ok for inshore with six, Mumm 30 like, but who would want that for a two or three day race?

Right? I feel like the original article totally missed the point that there are ALREADY some great 30 foot OD boats in the neighborhood of their stated price range (see the Dehler 30 OD above, the L30, or Farr X2).

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2 minutes ago, Some.Rando said:

Right? I feel like the original article totally missed the point that there are ALREADY some great 30 foot OD boats in the neighborhood of their stated price range (see the Dehler 30 OD above, the L30, or Farr X2).

Correct.

Not to speak of the thriving Figaro class.

The only class that is more French than this is the Mini.

image.png.565075f1d595e3f1800c41068b4c6014.png

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30 minutes ago, Some.Rando said:

Right? I feel like the original article totally missed the point that there are ALREADY some great 30 foot OD boats in the neighborhood of their stated price range (see the Dehler 30 OD above, the L30, or Farr X2).

I think the Dehler specced per that picture (carbon rig, sails etc) is going to be closer to €200k than the €100k in the article. It's a collective fiction from the manufacturers that these are €100k boats. (Jeanneau are guilty of the same thing). But as I posted above, the day-1 price is only part of the total cost of ownership equation (which includes mooring, race prep, depreciation etc etc).

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I agree, but:

If it's their fiction, the new idea is likely to fall into the same trap, too.

Cheapest way to get that idea off the ground is probably to get the J/92 molds and revive that one.

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1 minute ago, Snowden said:

I think the Dehler specced per that picture (carbon rig, sails etc) is going to be closer to €200k than the €100k in the article. It's a collective fiction from the manufacturers that these are €100k boats. (Jeanneau are guilty of the same thing). But as I posted above, the day-1 price is only part of the total cost of ownership equation (which includes mooring, race prep, depreciation etc etc).

That's totally fair, and I've priced out a Dehler 30, L30, Farr X2, Pogo 30, Sun Fast 3300, and probably a couple more I'm forgetting now for delivery to the SF Bay; after transportation, all of the go-fast kit, port-of-Oakland fees, commissioning, and the full North Sails 3Di package they're all just shy of $300K. If I were to put the boat into a charter program, say J-World/Blue Element, I could possibly recoup a decent portion of the loan, but there's no guarantee. If there were an active class where the boat were chartered out at least once a week (preferably more) through college or high school programs, then the calculus gets a lot easier. 

I'd love for there to be a racing charter program where I could rent out a rocketship like a Farr X2 for events like the SH/DH Farallones Race, but I've heard that insurance for chartered racing boats in the US is functionally impossible to get. So this crazy dream of owning a racing boat and "sharing" it with the community in exchange for money is kind of a pipe dream. 

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Though I love my Figaro, the 30ft space is tough. They are too expensive to be the mini style every-mans boat, and if you want to go fast they have to be stripped out (read uncomfortable) to stay light.

Now I am very happy to have a top notch boat with lower loads and operating costs than a Class40, but there is a reason my search started with the 40s. The combination of higher speeds, standing headroom, and not that much more money to get into a recent 40 compared with a new 30 (given the limited used market) had me set on the bigger boat - it ended up being a question of availability and US financing options that sealed the deal on the Figaro.

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37 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Cheapest way to get that idea off the ground is probably to get the J/92 molds and revive that one.

Figaro 2 moulds would be even better!

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33 minutes ago, Some.Rando said:

I'd love for there to be a racing charter program where I could rent out a rocketship like a Farr X2 for events like the SH/DH Farallones Race, but I've heard that insurance for chartered racing boats in the US is functionally impossible to get. So this crazy dream of owning a racing boat and "sharing" it with the community in exchange for money is kind of a pipe dream. 

There appear to be companies in the UK that do this (e.g. https://lvyachting.com/) but I have no idea how their business model works.

It used to be the case that you would code + charter a new boat for the VAT (sales tax) exemption and let the next owner figure out the VAT position. That or immediately export it to Guernsey.

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7 minutes ago, Snowden said:

There appear to be companies in the UK that do this (e.g. https://lvyachting.com/) but I have no idea how their business model works.

It used to be the case that you would code + charter a new boat for the VAT (sales tax) exemption and let the next owner figure out the VAT position. That or immediately export it to Guernsey.

Oh yea, no doubt, this kind of program is commonplace in Europe. (https://www.speedsailing.de/https://www.fastdownwind.com/https://www.offshoreracingcharter.gr/) But for some reason this business model is inconceivable in the USA. 

image.png.49b04fc7bfa2761892e93983db7eb828.png

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47 minutes ago, Some.Rando said:

Oh yea, no doubt, this kind of program is commonplace in Europe. (https://www.speedsailing.de/https://www.fastdownwind.com/https://www.offshoreracingcharter.gr/) But for some reason this business model is inconceivable in the USA. 

I wonder if there is a workaround in making it a club owned boat and members have access, but insurance is held by the single club - rather than having to adapt to a changing cast of charterers.

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Quote

 If I were to put the boat into a charter program, say J-World/Blue Element, I could possibly recoup a decent portion of the loan, but there's no guarantee. If there were an active class where the boat were chartered out at least once a week (preferably more) through college or high school programs, then the calculus gets a lot easier. 

I'd love for there to be a racing charter program where I could rent out a rocketship like a Farr X2 for events like the SH/DH Farallones Race, but I've heard that insurance for chartered racing boats in the US is functionally impossible to get. So this crazy dream of owning a racing boat and "sharing" it with the community in exchange for money is kind of a pipe dream. 

You would let people charter your new race boat?   With your race sails or with your additional$$$ set of charter sails?  To "college" or non-existent "high school" programs WEEKLY?  Crazy or just uninformed talk.   Even crazier is an idea of being able to charter a race boat for a single 60nm race once a year.   How would a company make money chartering a boat like that?   How would they verify that you wouldn't wreck their high performance sailboat with no practice?   

Buy a boat you can afford.....   not one where you have to try to get income from it to afford it.f

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12 hours ago, Some.Rando said:

Right? I feel like the original article totally missed the point that there are ALREADY some great 30 foot OD boats in the neighborhood of their stated price range (see the Dehler 30 OD above, the L30, or Farr X2).

The only problem is none of these are French!!!

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On 5/4/2021 at 3:32 PM, bridhb said:

Box rule with limits to keep cost down? 

YES, THIS

They can have subclasses like mini proto also, oh my fucking god, it would be soo interesting, holy fuck!

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On 5/4/2021 at 3:41 PM, JMOD said:

#bringback8mRsailing

 

bring back classe 950(is it class or classe?)

8m is too short, these boats with more than 5.8 headroom will look like inflatable trampolines

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1 minute ago, pironiero said:

bring back classe 950(is it class or classe?)

8m is too short, these boats with more than 5.8 headroom will look like inflatable trampolines

an 8mR is around 15m in length... it is both a former olympic class as well as a current development class.

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22 hours ago, Raz'r said:

every 10 years it seems

Mt Gay 30

Classe 950

this one....

i dont get what you are saying, please elaborate

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18 hours ago, Some.Rando said:

L30

i believe that this boat is too narrow for ocean crossings 1-2handed cus it needs to have human ballast to go fast, look it up, they took it without even testing it with at least couple transat racers, only one of them had any experience on this scale, rest were inshore

here, this guy is awesome

http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2019/03/l30-shame-on-world-sailing.html

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20 hours ago, Teener said:

That's how the class 40 got started and lost sight of that vision after the first generation.  Hard to avoid when sponsors want to win.

yes but it still allows new blood to try this class out, ind new blood is the main thing sailing world needs, cus lets be honest guys, we are in deep...

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7 minutes ago, JMOD said:

an 8mR is around 15m in length... it is both a former olympic class as well as a current development class.

oh shit oh fuck, i misunderstood, i believe that 8mR is too old, and not trendy and hip, thats what public wants, they want big speeds and spaceships on water for affordable price...

look at IMOCA and class 40

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I think that they've just realised that the "relatively cheap" and cheerful racing of the 90s has disappeared and few younger crews are being taught thus the amateur side of the sport is about to die in a decade or two.

So they want to create a class with Dacron sails and aluminium mast, a modern equivalent of the JOD35 so that clubs can stick a few stickers on the hull to get sponsorship money from the local SMEs and go racing with a team mixing young and older people onboard. Would be nice if it works... On the positive side when the UNCL and the RORC sat together to create what would become IRC, it was a success.

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14 minutes ago, pironiero said:

i believe that this boat is too narrow for ocean crossings 1-2handed cus it needs to have human ballast to go fast, look it up, they took it without even testing it with at least couple transat racers, only one of them had any experience on this scale, rest were inshore

here, this guy is awesome

http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2019/03/l30-shame-on-world-sailing.html

The L30 recently introduced a deep-keel version that's CE Cat A that draws 2.2 m and with a slightly heavier bulb. I had ruled out the L30 because it was only Cat B, but now it's back on the menu after having addressed most of Paolo's concerns. 

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1 minute ago, Some.Rando said:

The L30 recently introduced a deep-keel version that's CE Cat A that draws 2.2 m and with a slightly heavier bulb. I had ruled out the L30 because it was only Cat B, but now it's back on the menu after having addressed most of Paolo's concerns. 

if would be so funny if l30 team will decide to make boat wider same way as moore 24

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8 hours ago, solosailor said:

You would let people charter your new race boat?   With your race sails or with your additional$$$ set of charter sails?  To "college" or non-existent "high school" programs WEEKLY?  Crazy or just uninformed talk.   Even crazier is an idea of being able to charter a race boat for a single 60nm race once a year.   How would a company make money chartering a boat like that?   How would they verify that you wouldn't wreck their high performance sailboat with no practice?   

Buy a boat you can afford.....   not one where you have to try to get income from it to afford it.f

If your dream is to sail by yourself then buy your own boat. If your dream is to build a racing program then yes, necessarily you will have to charter it out. You're projecting a lot of assumptions just to be a naysayer, very on brand for SA.

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2 minutes ago, Some.Rando said:

If your dream is to sail by yourself then buy your own boat. If your dream is to build a racing program then yes, necessarily you will have to charter it out. You're projecting a lot of assumptions just to be a naysayer, very on brand for SA.

im worse, im 26, havent done shit im my life and im goind to build one myself

 

2 minutes ago, Some.Rando said:

assumptions just to be a naysayer, very on brand for SA.

idongettit

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Just now, pironiero said:

im worse, im 26, haven[']t done shit i[n] my life and i[']m goin[g] to build [m]ine myself

Building your own boat is a non-trivial affair. Good luck. Instead of naysaying I'll recommend working with a naval architect/engineer.

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1 hour ago, pironiero said:

i dont get what you are saying, please elaborate

Every 10 years or so a limited-cost box rule 30'er is proposed. It's always a great idea. Never gets much traction however.

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1 hour ago, pironiero said:

if would be so funny if l30 team will decide to make boat wider same way as moore 24

It's 2.5m wide so as to be towable in Continental Europe without gendarme escort. If they had been a bit more imaginative they could have found a way to make it a bit wider and cant it on the trailer but hey ho.

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21 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Every 10 years or so a limited-cost box rule 30'er is proposed. It's always a great idea. Never gets much traction however.

well.....fuck

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3 minutes ago, Snowden said:

It's 2.5m wide so as to be towable in Continental Europe without gendarme escort. If they had been a bit more imaginative they could have found a way to make it a bit wider and cant it on the trailer but hey ho.

like that Aeolos thing? mount it diagonally?

 

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The problem with box rules is that the gain in performance to be found by excessive spending at the design/research-stage is large enough to make even a talented self build effort non-competitive. My guess is that the top class 40's have spent more on CFD than the actual cost for building the boat.

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1 hour ago, Snowden said:

It's 2.5m wide so as to be towable in Continental Europe without gendarme escort. If they had been a bit more imaginative they could have found a way to make it a bit wider and cant it on the trailer but hey ho.

But that wouldn't help with the aim of cheaper racing. Before the tour de France voile got hijacked by pros, many teams were minimalist so it had to be minimal hassle.

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14 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

But that wouldn't help with the aim of cheaper racing. Before the tour de France voile got hijacked by pros, many teams were minimalist so it had to be minimal hassle.

Cheaper racing is to be applauded but I do question the relevance of towing for a 30 ft offshore-capable boat. Was not a problem for the JOD 35 / Mumm 30 / M34.

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Moving boats this size over land is a pain, big trucks, trailers, and cranes - sometimes you even get to take the keel off too!

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2 hours ago, Snowden said:

Cheaper racing is to be applauded but I do question the relevance of towing for a 30 ft offshore-capable boat. Was not a problem for the JOD 35 / Mumm 30 / M34.

Mumm 30 was towable , M34 was a failure and the JOD 35 were mostly delivered by sea.

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4 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Mumm 30 was towable

I may be missing something but doesn't it have a >2 metre fixed keel and >3 metre beam? I thought that was larger than you could legally tow in France without escort / other bureaucratic complications?

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7 minutes ago, Snowden said:

I may be missing something but doesn't it have a >2 metre fixed keel and >3 metre beam? I thought that was larger than you could legally tow in France without escort / other bureaucratic complications?

I haven't checked but I am pretty sure that I've seen some on the road towed by a white van. There are several kind of requirements when you go beyond the standard gauge depending how much you exceed. The first one isn't very onerous (just submit a journey plan that doesn't involve low bridge and slap a "convoi exceptionnel" boboard at the back).

When you exceed standard width or weight they become more concerned.

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8ft retractable keel with an 8ft beam which "unfolds" to 11ft, and I can tow this boat with any half decent SUV. 

It's very possible to have both performance and transportability, just need a little imagination...

Now whether or not you need to be towing an "ocean" racer around all the time, I'm not so sure. But a coastal racer? Sure. 

Screenshot_20210505-162335.jpg

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8 hours ago, Some.Rando said:

Building your own boat is a non-trivial affair. Good luck. Instead of naysaying I'll recommend working with a naval architect/engineer.

Oh yeah, and this. 

Don't build your own boat. At least not yet.

You're gonna need WAY more $$$ than you probably have, unless you're a bitcoin millionaire.

Im being very honest, I promise, I was in the same mindset as you were not too long ago.

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34 minutes ago, Floating Duck said:

Oh yeah, and this. 

Don't build your own boat. At least not yet.

You're gonna need WAY more $$$ than you probably have, unless you're a bitcoin millionaire.

Im being very honest, I promise, I was in the same mindset as you were not too long ago.

i mean if there will be sf3300 somewhere near me(or if covid thing stops-literally somewhere) for a good price-of course ill consider it, or any other racey recent sailboats{ofcet 32, sc37}, but i believe-it will not happen, also as its not for the boat,more for building process, im really interested in working with composites, just recently signed up for building proto 650 with some yachtsman, mini transat racer.

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11 hours ago, Snowden said:

I may be missing something but doesn't it have a >2 metre fixed keel and >3 metre beam? I thought that was larger than you could legally tow in France without escort / other bureaucratic complications?

Someone once told me they reprinted the Mumm 30 brochure and quoted a narrower beam that conveniently fitted inside the towing limits in France?? Not sure if that was true or not

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On 5/5/2021 at 5:32 AM, Matagi said:

Ahem. Sorry, this seat's been taken...

image.thumb.png.368f6c3c8d68baf3b267fb9f34fceb0b.png

In earnest. That's too broad a design brief. 30 to 32 feet seems ok for inshore with six, Mumm 30 like, but who would want that for a two or three day race?

Sure, this one is legend, but it is also madness and made us shiver a bit:

image.png.3b8dc858823ab86f65c604479dd7de4a.png

Go The Cone!Cone of Silence Interior.bmp

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On 5/4/2021 at 11:56 PM, Snowden said:

I think the Dehler specced per that picture (carbon rig, sails etc) is going to be closer to €200k than the €100k in the article. It's a collective fiction from the manufacturers that these are €100k boats. (Jeanneau are guilty of the same thing). But as I posted above, the day-1 price is only part of the total cost of ownership equation (which includes mooring, race prep, depreciation etc etc).

True. Quick googling suggests 129k€ (with German VAT, without sails). https://www.boat24.com/en/sailboats/dehler/dehler-30od-onedesign/detail/436521/

Yachting world makes a guess of 160k€ all up. https://www.yachtingworld.com/reviews/boat-tests/dehler-30-yacht-one-design-racer

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What about former classes like open 9.50, intended to be a cheaper class 40 ?

What about ORC  GP class  26, 33, 42 ?

And for One design, there is a very real acute problem :  There is a SINGLE builder.

While the overall turnover of the class is relatively small, other builders wont move, and the class is uninteresting. But if it become significant, other builders (that are loosing market share) will simply kill the class by building better boats, and will sell them cheaper. It is the only thing they can do, or go bankruptcy.

Note If there are several buillders for the same one design, it will be very hard to ensure equal building in different factories around the world. They are likely to source different raw materials.

So I fear a worldwide one design of significant price and somewhat large diffusion is simply not possible with current competitive economic world. 

 

There are also not so clever things done in OD. Namely the M34 for "tour de france a la voile". The spec asked for a trailerable, with transatlantic capabilities. (CE category A). Archambault was the winner. But had to contract at a price under manufacturing costs to win : result : Archambault went out of business...

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28 minutes ago, Matagi said:

How can something that says 'OD' in its name have such a vast range of speccs that no one knows the price to the €?

Specs are OD. Swedes are selling them for 153k€, without sails and electronics. Quite a bit markup versus German dealer. And odd that they quote price in € not SEK.

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1 hour ago, fcfc said:

And for One design, there is a very real acute problem :  There is a SINGLE builder.

 

ye, its quite retarded actually, imo

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1 hour ago, fcfc said:

So I fear a worldwide one design of significant price and somewhat large diffusion is simply not possible with current competitive economic world. 

 

but we got to at least try...

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5 hours ago, fcfc said:

Note If there are several buillders for the same one design, it will be very hard to ensure equal building in different factories around the world. They are likely to source different raw materials.

They are proposing that the boat is built under license by several builders like the Mumm 30 was. AFAIK the Mumm 30 was a fair class, the only downside of the boat was that it wasn't a proper offshore boat and thus had the bad habit of going into proper submarine mode dowwind in heavy breeze.

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The Mumm 30 was and remains a fucking cool boat.

The Youtube algorithm clearly heard our discussion here earlier and recommended this video to me again:

 

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2 minutes ago, Snowden said:

The Mumm 30 was and remains a fucking cool boat.

It was a really cool boat but it killed slowly the amateur side of the Tour de France Voile, going through the big French tidal gates (raz Blanchard, chenal du Four, raz de Sein) on a Mumm 30 in breezy conditions require skills that are a bit beyond what the smaller teams had when it was the JOD35 era and it was a boat hard too prepare. Sadly, I never did the TFV but the small teams were nowhere as skilled as the pros and that is why there were so many people on the start line. I was part of a loose group of people who was trying to put together a program and when it switched to Mumm 30 we called it a day. Sure we could have sailed the boat round the course but to be in the pack required a serious budget and serious preparation. Seeing the big guys do some serious nose dives during the "Spi Ouest France" didn't help, to actually race it (as opposed to follow the pack in survival mode), you needed serious preparation beyond what most people with a job aside could do.

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5 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

to actually race it (as opposed to follow the pack in survival mode), you needed serious preparation beyond what most people with a job aside could do.

That's the story of sailing in general from the late 80s to present, though. It's not the fault of one boat or one series.

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If your dream is to sail by yourself then buy your own boat. If your dream is to build a racing program then yes, necessarily you will have to charter it out. You're projecting a lot of assumptions just to be a naysayer, very on brand for SA.

What does "build a racing program" mean?   Most EVERY racing program I know of does NOT charter their boats out.   It's only "necessary" if you can't afford it and want others to pay for the boat you want.  If you mean building a racing program business then that's different.  I am not a naysayer, just a realist.   I've been a part of and seen many many racing programs and not one of them chartered their boat out.   It does happen for a Transpac or Nationals/Worlds type event now and again but rare.  There is a reason a race charter business is almost non-existent outside of major classes.   And then the boats being chartered are the same type as that team has and they bring their own sails.

How many events do you think you could charter a boat our for an area like the San Francisco Bay?   A handful a year at best and only a single race week (Big Boat Series) to make some serious charter fees.   How many clients do you think are out there for a single day charter for the rest of the events if that charter fee was in the thousands for the day?   I can't see how you would be able to charter it for a reasonable price enough to entice someone to pony up.

 

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32 minutes ago, Snowden said:

That's the story of sailing in general from the late 80s to present, though. It's not the fault of one boat or one series.

The JOD35 was a rather crude boat built to a budget, it had an aluminium mast, white sails but the racing was still good because there were lot of people on the start line and these people were spending lot of time on the water. Mumm 30 races were sexier, generated more TV coverage but that is what pros need, amateur need a boat that can be paid for by local sponsorship money and raced every weekend. These opportunities are gone, I think that it is smart of the RORC and the UNCL to push for such a class if they want to stay relevant!

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12 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

The JOD35 was a rather crude boat built to a budget, it had an aluminium mast, white sails but the racing was still good because there were lot of people on the start line and these people were spending lot of time on the water.

You could say the same about the J/70 though (excepting the carbon mast) - but still there are many big names in that class and the top "programs" are spending huge amounts, despite the dacron sails and limited electronics packages.

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On 5/5/2021 at 5:42 PM, Snowden said:

It's 2.5m wide so as to be towable in Continental Europe without gendarme escort. If they had been a bit more imaginative they could have found a way to make it a bit wider and cant it on the trailer but hey ho.

 

This 4.07 m beam is trailer able, without police escort, even without pilot car.

The main problem of trailerable is weight. 3500 kg, including the trailer at least in France (that's maximum boat weight of 2700kg, all wet), unless professional truck driver. And of course the pain and time of mast, keel, rudder removal, and boat loading.  

Just image 20 sailboats who come by road for a regatta. How long to put them all in the water, in sailing condition, and what parking space needed...

And then fancy this in the med, in summer ....

xp-44 truck.jpg

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1 hour ago, Snowden said:

You could say the same about the J/70 though (excepting the carbon mast) - but still there are many big names in that class and the top "programs" are spending huge amounts, despite the dacron sails and limited electronics packages.

There were also big names racing the JOD35 (Pahun, Péponnet, Cayard, Pillot...), but they were doing it alongside the shoestring budget teams.

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On 5/6/2021 at 10:18 AM, Panoramix said:

There were also big names racing the JOD35 (Pahun, Péponnet, Cayard, Pillot...), but they were doing it alongside the shoestring budget teams.

I did part of one on a very shoestring team. Had a second place finish - best the team did.

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Below were my initial thoughts about this project in a post aimed at designer Julian Everitt, but also more widely.
 
Class 30
Are you getting those little grey cells fizzing? Your pen may have been doing more writing than drawing lately, but I am sure your creative impulse is as strong as ever. How about submitting a proposal for the Class 30 idea? Some quick thoughts from me to get you launched ….
 
OK, so we have a brief from UNCL, (see links below) but perhaps we can keep our minds open to what we, the racing sailors, might like to see this seed grow into. The basic parameters are there to serve as guidelines, so? Who will really buy and use this boat? Schools, clubs, associations, and event organisers? Private individuals? Important to plan an afterlife too. Budget has to be a really big factor if this class is to get traction.
 
How green can we go? Electric propulsion? Natural fibres and materials in a laminate / composite construction? Multiple construction material options including plywood? (The Muscadet is a hugely successful class today with most of these plywood boxes being 50 years old!)
Hull shape? Successful designs are generally elegant, even if not classically so. Blend what we have seen develop over many years including recent JPK and similar designs with fuller fwd sections? Chine or no chine?
 
The headroom suggestion smacks of Quarter Ton days and all the benders we saw, so why be daft about this? Why not incorporate enough common-sense design which will allow longer life and better resale? Keel box incorporated into attractive but simple layout with the required 4 berths. Optional heads? Optional galley module?
 
Keel? Update the E Boat/Evolution keel design and system, albeit in a new IRC flat keel friendly form, probably parallel leading and trailing edges but with some aft angle? Keel construction? Is it possible with a 2.4m max for lifting keel, to be cunning and come up with a composite moulded keel incorporating low down lead ballast and a relatively simple internal reinforcing grid or rod structure?
 
The keel question opens another idea. Could a range of components be centrally produced and supplied, whilst allowing hull construction to be done by anyone anywhere? Take the complicated, technologically advanced, and potentially expensive elements and mass produce them for everyone? What elements? Keel, engine, deck gear?
 
How modular could we be with this project? There is already a suggestion of basic through to sexy versions. Can options be planned in from the start and added as wanted and as budget allows? If so, what options?
 
Rig? Keep it simple stupid? OK, but not be stupid either. Mast relatively far aft? Big-ish foretriangle? Mast must be alloy and deck stepped. Fixed, removeable or extendable sprit? Brief leaves symmetric or asymmetric choice open. Allow for both for different users and uses?
Ideas on how the make the boat stand out from the crowd? Colours, graphics, shapes …?
 
There will probably be proposals from designer/builder combos like we see with the Figaro class, but this can really limit dynamic international growth. Right now, there are various designs targeting the size range, but perhaps not the breadth of clientele and the aim of an entry level price point?
 
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2 hours ago, cms said:
How green can we go? Electric propulsion? Natural fibres and materials in a laminate / composite construction? Multiple construction material options including plywood? (The Muscadet is a hugely successful class today with most of these plywood boxes being 50 years old!)
Hull shape? Successful designs are generally elegant, even if not classically so. Blend what we have seen develop over many years including recent JPK and similar designs with fuller fwd sections? Chine or no chine?

The green side would definitely be a cool evolution, would increase chances of sailing becoming more relevant and may be a way for amateur teams to find sponsorship more easily. I hope to be wrong but I fear that it is a bit early though, the UNCL and the RORC are respectively a Paris and a London organisation and thus might a bit too backward and conservative for such a choice!

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7 hours ago, cms said:
 
Rig? Keep it simple stupid? OK, but not be stupid either. Mast relatively far aft? Big-ish foretriangle? Mast must be alloy and deck stepped. Fixed, removeable or extendable sprit? Brief leaves symmetric or asymmetric choice open. Allow for both for different users and uses?
Ideas on how the make the boat stand out from the crowd? Colours, graphics, shapes …?

Sorry, I could not resist for the life of me:

 

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I like Julian Everitt’s FB posts but he does seem to be stuck in the past. His main criticism of IRC is that no-one commissions custom yachts any more and that, unlike the “glory days” of the IOR, you don’t have to have a new boat every year to be competitive.

I can understand why a yacht designer would think that, but as an owner it’s a good thing that 10+ year old boats can challenge for the top prizes. There are always the Grand Prix classes for those that want a bit more. 

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On 5/9/2021 at 12:47 PM, cms said:

The keel question opens another idea. Could a range of components be centrally produced and supplied, whilst allowing hull construction to be done by anyone anywhere? Take the complicated, technologically advanced, and potentially expensive elements and mass produce them for everyone? What elements? Keel, engine, deck gear?

just don't be like these class580 guys and you are golden, LMAO

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