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Absolutely making America great again.

And about bloody time.

It wont happen.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-06/joe-biden-supports-waiver-of-covid-19-vaccine-ip/100119704

The head of the World Health Organization (WHO) says US President Joe Biden's plan to back a waiver on intellectual property rights on vaccines to boost global production is a "monumental moment in the fight against COVID-19".

Key points:

  • The waiver proposal was initially raised by India and South Africa
  • The 164 members of the World Trade Organization must vote unanimously in favour of it to pass 
  • The US suppports the proposal, which is opposed by big pharmaceutical companies

Mr Biden on Wednesday threw his support behind a proposed World Trade Organization (WTO) waiver of intellectual property rights for COVID-19 vaccines, bowing to mounting pressure from US Democrats and more than 100 other countries.

US Trade Representative Katherine Tai said the battling the pandemic required extraordinary measures.

The WHO's director-general, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, who has repeatedly urged countries to support the proposal brought by India and South Africa at the WTO, wrote in a tweet that Mr Biden's support was a "powerful example of United States leadership to address global health challenges".

 

 

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Monumentally stupid idea.  Giving away messenger RNA technology which has applications for all kinds of medical treatment.  Big demerit to  Smirking Joe if he does this.

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1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

Monumentally stupid idea.  Giving away messenger RNA technology which has applications for all kinds of medical treatment.  Big demerit to  Smirking Joe if he does this.

What patents in that area do the US companies really hold? The most successful vaccine was developed in Germany ;)

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Let's think...... Intellectual property rights (=$) Vs. a vast good for human kind(=0$).....

I suppose that if I owned the IPR on something like a covid vaccine, I'd like to get a little something for the technology, but.... I think that I'd be good with a few hundred million, instead of the billions envisioned.

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It doesn't matter which vax. This it the WTO needing 100% agreement on all Vax patents AFAIK.

To date, the USA and Switzerland, UK (and Possibly Australia)have been holding back.

11 Million+ people died in the AIDs epidemic because of selfish/greedy (Why we can't have nice things) bullshit like this.

That will look like a drop in a bucket this time around.

 

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16 minutes ago, justsomeguy! said:

There's an all or nothing fallacy for ya.

I am not sure of your position? Employment contracts often state something to the effect " IP will remain the property of the employer"....

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1 hour ago, Marty6 said:

What patents in that area do the US companies really hold? The most successful vaccine was developed in Germany ;)

Normally in cases like this there are many layers of patents by different parties. The original RNA trick, the lipid layer, then many manufacturing tricks invented along the way. Each one pantented while relying on the earlier. Much cross-licensing. Also much cleverness in subsequent patents of minor improvements that might be mostly intended only to extend the patent term.

The pharma companies should politely negotiate a fair licensing scheme that benefits humanity. Governments should not hesitate to instantly nationalize any corporation that balks at a solution that maximizes the equitable benefit to humanity. Used to be done that way in the good old (MAGA!) days.

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59 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

It doesn't matter which vax. This it the WTO needing 100% agreement on all Vax patents AFAIK.

To date, the USA and Switzerland, UK (and Possibly Australia)have been holding back.

11 Million+ people died in the AIDs epidemic because of selfish/greedy (Why we can't have nice things) bullshit like this.

That will look like a drop in a bucket this time around.

 

I have to disagree. Without profit there will be no investment. This tech exists because a shit-ton of venture capital $s were expended over the last 10 + years. pull the profit motive and yes, you'll get cheaper vaccines now (not that $s are at all an issue at the moment) but the VC money will dry up. 

 

Biden would be better off to negotiate with the firms lower royalties, and to build a WTO fund to pay for the vaccines.

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The UK astra Zeneca vaccine is being licenced on a non profit basis anyway.

The Pfizer vaccine requires about 280 components from 88 companies in 19 countries, it's doubtful many countries could produce this vaccine.  Even the simpler vaccines are way beyond the majority of countries abilities.

I very much doubt Biden could get the removal of patents through the courts..

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1 hour ago, warbird said:

I am not sure of your position?

My position is that loss of IPR for the still unproven vaccines won't be a death knell for IPR in general.

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3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I have to disagree. Without profit there will be no investment. This tech exists because a shit-ton of venture capital $s were expended over the last 10 + years. pull the profit motive and yes, you'll get cheaper vaccines now (not that $s are at all an issue at the moment) but the VC money will dry up. 

 

Biden would be better off to negotiate with the firms lower royalties, and to build a WTO fund to pay for the vaccines.

we've 7.5 billion people to vax. how much profit do they need?

These vax only exist because a shit ton of countries governments invested in them.

Payback.

 

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Countries paid to educate these companies employees, including the scientists who developed these vaccines, provided the services that their building use, and roads so their employees can get to work.  Most of the companies involved are able to use their R&D investments as a tax write-off - the vast majority of countries have such tax provisions.  So, the public has already paid a good portion of the cost of development.

If the companies had any sense, they would take the billions the have already made from the vaccines, say thank-you very much, then turn around and donate the technology to the world.  The good will thus generated would last a very long time.

Besides, if the pandemic had decimated populations around the world, their customer base could have shrunk substantially.  

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11 minutes ago, Gissie said:

China is happy to swap their vaccine IP for everyone else's. :lol:

she who laughs last.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01146-0

COVAX has so far shipped only about 50 million of the 2 billion doses it aims to deliver globally in 2021. India is meant to contribute one billion doses of its Covishield vaccine, but exports have halted, owing to the country’s ongoing COVID-19 crisis. Deliveries to COVAX of another WHO-listed vaccine produced by the pharmaceutical firm Pfizer have been limited, and none of Johnson & Johnson’s have been shipped yet. Moderna’s vaccine was listed by the WHO on 30 April.

As a result, Chinese vaccines are badly needed, says Gagandeep Kang, a virologist at the Christian Medical College in Vellore, India, and a member of a technical group on immunization that advises the WHO. The group met on 29 April to review data on the two Chinese vaccines, and will soon provide recommendations on their use.

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

she who laughs last.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01146-0

COVAX has so far shipped only about 50 million of the 2 billion doses it aims to deliver globally in 2021. India is meant to contribute one billion doses of its Covishield vaccine, but exports have halted, owing to the country’s ongoing COVID-19 crisis. Deliveries to COVAX of another WHO-listed vaccine produced by the pharmaceutical firm Pfizer have been limited, and none of Johnson & Johnson’s have been shipped yet. Moderna’s vaccine was listed by the WHO on 30 April.

As a result, Chinese vaccines are badly needed, says Gagandeep Kang, a virologist at the Christian Medical College in Vellore, India, and a member of a technical group on immunization that advises the WHO. The group met on 29 April to review data on the two Chinese vaccines, and will soon provide recommendations on their use.

 Murat Akova, a clinical infectious-diseases researcher at Hacettepe University in Ankara. “If nothing else is available, I think these vaccines are a good choice.” :lol:

 

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45 minutes ago, Gissie said:

 Murat Akova, a clinical infectious-diseases researcher at Hacettepe University in Ankara. “If nothing else is available, I think these vaccines are a good choice.” :lol:

 

Well they might stop a few million people dying. Those people will be grateful to China. To those hoarding vaccines and holding out for the highest bidder? not so much.

I think you'll find China's relationships with some countries even stronger.

So Laugh at their vaccine.

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6 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I have to disagree. Without profit there will be no investment. This tech exists because a shit-ton of venture capital $s were expended over the last 10 + years. pull the profit motive and yes, you'll get cheaper vaccines now (not that $s are at all an issue at the moment) but the VC money will dry up. 

 

Biden would be better off to negotiate with the firms lower royalties, and to build a WTO fund to pay for the vaccines.

How much did those VCs invest compared to the governments?

Now that the first mRNA vaccines were pulled off successfully there are most likely additional profit opportunities coming up for different illnesses. Let alone the quite possible need for regular Covid shots for a while to manage the mutations.

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I'm not sure that giving away the IP will be all that useful as far as fighting the pandemic is concerned. It will take weeks or even months for new manufacturing facilities to be built. In the meantime, pretty much any facility capable of producing the vaccine is already subcontracted by one of the patent holders. Plus, there is a limited supply of some of the raw materials required to produce these compounds. If we put too much pressure on these materials, vaccine production may actually fall off despite increased capacity.

On the other hand, much of the formulations and technology is out there already, either in the form of peer-reviewed articles and/or in the hands of the subcontractors mentioned above. Anyone with enough time, money and experience will eventually be able to duplicate the work. Giving away the IP will no doubt shorten the learning curve, but perhaps not as much as is feared.

It's easy for Biden to say, "Let's do what's best for humanity," all the while knowing that it only takes one vote to kill the measure.

So I guess what I'm saying is that while I can see both sides of the situation, I am ambivalent about the choices involved.

I will say that it is refreshing to be having a reasonable conversation on the topic.

 

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

we've 7.5 billion people to vax. how much profit do they need?

These vax only exist because a shit ton of countries governments invested in them.

Payback.

 

How long is a string? And no, a bunch of governments placed orders for this specific vaccine. Not the billions invested over the years on the base technology.

 

someone point out where cost of the vaccine is causing shortages please. High prices usually lead to more investment and supply. We’re all kidding ourselves thinking this is over with these first vaccine versions. Kill the goose already?

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Wait.  Venom the idiot was just complaining that Biden hadn't done this!  That confused fuck hates anything that MIGHT be construed as socialist, but suddenly wants Biden to strip IP from companies and give away vaccine that (up until now) was still desperately needed here.  He not only doesn't understand what socialism is, he doesn't get that a good government has social policies in some cases because they are necessary.  He can't see his hypocrisy, and just wants to spew hatred. 

At least Biden has the intelligence to ignore folks like Trump and his idiot followers like vermin and move ahead with putting our country back where it belongs. 

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3 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Well they might stop a few million people dying. Those people will be grateful to China. To those hoarding vaccines and holding out for the highest bidder? not so much.

I think you'll find China's relationships with some countries even stronger.

So Laugh at their vaccine.

Where is any company holding out? They are producing as fast as possible. You know, that profit thing.

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10 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:

My position is that loss of IPR for the still unproven vaccines won't be a death knell for IPR in general.

Slippery slope?

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12 hours ago, warbird said:
14 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:

Only for big pharma.

No..... for all IP.

 

20 minutes ago, warbird said:
10 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:

My position is that loss of IPR for the still unproven vaccines won't be a death knell for IPR in general.

Slippery slope?

 

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Developed countries like Canada are smarting from the lessons learned in this pandemic.  Canada, for example, spent hundreds of millions trying to secure vaccines supplies that either never arrived, or arrived after significant delays.  This is because Canada did not have any vaccine production facilities of its own, and believed big pharma when they said "trust us, we'll be there for you when you need us".

Now that big pharma has shown they can't back that promise up (not their fault in many cases by the way - there was political interference in the vaccine supply) Canada is planning to build its own production facilities.  

Those facilities only make sense if there are vaccines to produce in them, which means the licensing relationship will be changing going forward.  I suspect that some very big wheels are turning behind the scenes on the licensing front.  Canada has also had a decades-long dispute with big pharma over patents and generic drugs.  Hopefully, there will be some resolution to this now that big pharma let us down in a big way.

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1 minute ago, Rain Man said:

Developed countries like Canada are smarting from the lessons learned in this pandemic.  Canada, for example, spent hundreds of millions trying to secure vaccines supplies that either never arrived, or arrived after significant delays.  This is because Canada did not have any vaccine production facilities of its own, and believed big pharma when they said "trust us, we'll be there for you when you need us".

Now that big pharma has shown they can't back that promise up (not their fault in many cases by the way - there was political interference in the vaccine supply) Canada is planning to build its own production facilities.  

Those facilities only make sense if there are vaccines to produce in them, which means the licensing relationship will be changing going forward.  I suspect that some very big wheels are turning behind the scenes on the licensing front.  Canada has also had a decades-long dispute with big pharma over patents and generic drugs.  Hopefully, there will be some resolution to this now that big pharma let us down in a big way.

Agreed, but licensing will work, and states have the power of pushing hard on licensing. That's not the same as nationalizing the IP.

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@justsomeguyI was noticing that you said, Only for big pharma, then warbird said No..... for all IP, then you said it won't be the death knell for IP. Then warbird said Slippery slope. He was moonwalking.

During WWII, the great Hedy Lamarr, that Hedy Lamarr, co-invented what became known as Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum. Qualcomm's CDMA uses a variant of spread spectrum, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum. But even Qualcomm says CDMA derives from Lamarr's idea. Anyways, this was during WWII and while she was granted a patent

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2292387

it was not allowed to be published during the war, thus violating Lamarr's IP rights.

We can do this sort of regulation because Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 grants Congress the enumerated power To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries. That is an enumerated power granted to Congress and not an individual right.

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

Wait.  Venom the idiot was just complaining that Biden hadn't done this!  That confused fuck hates anything that MIGHT be construed as socialist, but suddenly wants Biden to strip IP from companies and give away vaccine that (up until now) was still desperately needed here.  He not only doesn't understand what socialism is, he doesn't get that a good government has social policies in some cases because they are necessary.  He can't see his hypocrisy, and just wants to spew hatred. 

At least Biden has the intelligence to ignore folks like Trump and his idiot followers like vermin and move ahead with putting our country back where it belongs. 

hmm. there's a thorny topic.

A  big rich country that desperately needs a vaccine and enormous quantities of it,{largely because of the stupidity of it's leader and people) now holds the power to get it out to poor countries that desperately need it..or not.:rolleyes:

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31 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

hmm. there's a thorny topic.

A  big rich country that desperately needs a vaccine and enormous quantities of it,{largely because of the stupidity of it's leader and people) now holds the power to get it out to poor countries that desperately need it..or not.:rolleyes:

Is this different than in the past? I don't think you have to "trust" the countries with the resources, no one wants this shit to find nice little reservoirs of infection where Darwin can do his work and mix up more lethal versions.

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Just now, Raz'r said:

 no one wants this shit to find nice little reservoirs of infection where Darwin can do his work and mix up more lethal versions.

Well... there is Floriduh.

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Well... there is Floriduh.

it's hard to fix stupid, but maybe we can wall it off...

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3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

How long is a string? And no, a bunch of governments placed orders for this specific vaccine. Not the billions invested over the years on the base technology.

 

The US and Germany alone invested over 3 billion in the development of a Covid-19 vaccine (apart from payment programs for general research over the years) apart from the guaranteed purchases to secure the preproduction before admission or clearance by health agencies. Please show me the billions invested by VCs up front. The biggest that i found with a quick search was some 450 million for Moderna 2015 and some other single or low double digit millions for others developing mRNA technology.

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17 hours ago, Fakenews said:

Monumentally stupid idea.  Giving away messenger RNA technology which has applications for all kinds of medical treatment.  Big demerit to  Smirking Joe if he does this.

Did you have a single idea or did your asshole explode?

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18 minutes ago, Marty6 said:

The US and Germany alone invested over 3 billion in the development of a Covid-19 vaccine (apart from payment programs for general research over the years) apart from the guaranteed purchases to secure the preproduction before admission or clearance by health agencies. Please show me the billions invested by VCs up front. The biggest that i found with a quick search was some 450 million for Moderna 2015 and some other single or low double digit millions for others developing mRNA technology.

Umm, that's not how it works you know. They invested in mRNA tech for years. Was there a massive push in the last year? Duh. If the gov'ts didn't negotiate licensing (which I'm sure they did, just as @Saorsa) that's on them.

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However it's done, the entire world needs to be vaccinated, and very quickly. If that doesn't happen - nevermind the untold death and misery - the virus will probably mutate into something that's not stopped by the vaccines, and we will have to start this thing all over again.

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39 minutes ago, Nice! said:

However it's done, the entire world needs to be vaccinated, and very quickly. If that doesn't happen - nevermind the untold death and misery - the virus will probably mutate into something that's not stopped by the vaccines, and we will have to start this thing all over again.

Doubtful.  It’s success and our vaccination efforts will eventually lead to it being much less lethal.  We will learn to live with it and experience outbreaks much like a very bad flu season.

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11 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Doubtful.  It’s success and our vaccination efforts will eventually lead to it being much less lethal.  We will learn to live with it and experience outbreaks much like a very bad flu season.

Just like Polio.

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

hmm. there's a thorny topic.

A  big rich country that desperately needs a vaccine and enormous quantities of it,{largely because of the stupidity of it's leader and people) now holds the power to get it out to poor countries that desperately need it..or not.:rolleyes:

Hate to break it to ya Meli, because I know you have a stupid-gasm every time you think you find a way to criticize the US, but we are now shipping vaccine we paid for to other countries for free.  So, just once, can you find something constructive to do? 

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11 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Well they might stop a few million people dying. Those people will be grateful to China. To those hoarding vaccines and holding out for the highest bidder? not so much.

I think you'll find China's relationships with some countries even stronger.

So Laugh at their vaccine.

I do agree they are using the vaccine much like beads and blankets of days gone past. They are making stronger relationships, but there had better be some rather long spoons being used.

And yeah, after all the fan fare and bluster about their amazing vaccine, I can still laugh.

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

Hate to break it to ya Meli, because I know you have a stupid-gasm every time you think you find a way to criticize the US, but we are now shipping vaccine we paid for to other countries for free.  So, just once, can you find something constructive to do? 

So are we. That's not the point.

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Just now, Shortforbob said:

So are we. That's not the point.

The Germans say "Nein"

Why? Paraphrased "Patents aren't an issue with producing or distributing vaccines"

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53 minutes ago, Gissie said:

I do agree they are using the vaccine much like beads and blankets of days gone past. They are making stronger relationships, but there had better be some rather long spoons being used.

And yeah, after all the fan fare and bluster about their amazing vaccine, I can still laugh.

You starting to see a bigger picture?

Not necessarily china, but the unequal distribution of vaccines, the "good" ones going to the rich (USA and EU) the not so good going to developing countries and shithole countries. And the rich countries (EU and the USA) controling manufacture and distribution well World wars have started over much less.

Our world is not terrible stable ATM.

If this virus roars across the world leaving the wealthy to make massive profit while the poor die by the millions it will be the greatest crime against humanity ever.

 

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4 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

You starting to see a bigger picture?

Not necessarily china, but the unequal distribution of vaccines, the "good" ones going to the rich (USA and EU) the not so good going to developing countries and shithole countries. And the rich countries (EU and the USA) controling manufacture and distribution well World wars have started over much less.

Our world is not terrible stable ATM.

If this virus roars across the world leaving the wealthy to make massive profit while the poor die by the millions it will be the greatest crime against humanity ever.

 

Imagination is running wild. Why do you think there will be hoarding?

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Just now, Raz'r said:

Imagination is running wild. Why do you think there will be hoarding?

Did I say hoarding? But while some countries still cant get vaccines to their frontline health workers, it seems others are now able to vaccinate their teenagers.

The distribution is fucked.

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13 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Did I say hoarding? But while some countries still cant get vaccines to their frontline health workers, it seems others are now able to vaccinate their teenagers.

The distribution is fucked.

Sorry, there is no world gov't. We still have nation-states.  Patents really have nothing to do with this.

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12 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Sorry, there is no world gov't. We still have nation-states.  Patents really have nothing to do with this.

That's why we have the WTO and the WHO.

I find some of the "against" arguments (from the drug companies) particularly disingenuous.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/6/what-you-need-to-know-about-patents-rights-in-500-words

“Handing needy countries a recipe book without the ingredients, safeguards and sizeable workforce needed will not help people waiting for the vaccine,” said Michelle McMurry-Heath, president and chief executive of the Biotechnology Innovation Organization. “Handing them the blueprint to construct a kitchen that – in optimal conditions – can take a year to build will not help us stop the emergence of dangerous new COVID variants.”

I dont think anyone is proposing giving Botswana a recipe book. There are untold other manufacturers in first world countries with most of the tech to produce these vaccines now or very quickly.

As far as I understand it, the issue is that patents are hindering manufacturing world wide. 

Saying that it's dangerous to give such tech to Botswana is ludicrous.

I think the idea is to allow all those companies with the capability to produce the vax to do so, thus massively increasing the worls supply and allowing those countries that committed to COVAX (like INDIA ) to have the vaccines to do so.

 

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44 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

That's why we have the WTO and the WHO.

I find some of the "against" arguments (from the drug companies) particularly disingenuous.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/6/what-you-need-to-know-about-patents-rights-in-500-words

“Handing needy countries a recipe book without the ingredients, safeguards and sizeable workforce needed will not help people waiting for the vaccine,” said Michelle McMurry-Heath, president and chief executive of the Biotechnology Innovation Organization. “Handing them the blueprint to construct a kitchen that – in optimal conditions – can take a year to build will not help us stop the emergence of dangerous new COVID variants.”

I dont think anyone is proposing giving Botswana a recipe book. There are untold other manufacturers in first world countries with most of the tech to produce these vaccines now or very quickly.

As far as I understand it, the issue is that patents are hindering manufacturing world wide. 

Saying that it's dangerous to give such tech to Botswana is ludicrous.

I think the idea is to allow all those companies with the capability to produce the vax to do so, thus massively increasing the worls supply and allowing those countries that committed to COVAX (like INDIA ) to have the vaccines to do so.

 

Except that is not what is holding back production. At least according to the Germans.  Think of it like aluminum. Say all of a sudden we needed 100x the normal supply of aluminum, and in this case it’s more like infinity, but let’s say 100x

There are no patents. Why do you suppose all the world manufacturers would be hard pressed to increase supply say, 20%? Let alone 100X?

the capacity doesn’t exist. Hell, we don’t even have enough of the right coolers to deliver the mRNA vaccines even if we had the vaccine!

 

patents and money are not the problem

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9 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Except that is not what is holding back production. At least according to the Germans.  Think of it like aluminum. Say all of a sudden we needed 100x the normal supply of aluminum, and in this case it’s more like infinity, but let’s say 100x

There are no patents. Why do you suppose all the world manufacturers would be hard pressed to increase supply say, 20%? Let alone 100X?

the capacity doesn’t exist. Hell, we don’t even have enough of the right coolers to deliver the mRNA vaccines even if we had the vaccine!

 

patents and money are not the problem

We have facilities right here to produce AZ. (CSL)

(The mRNA vaccines are impractical for world distribution anyway)

Every major pharma company in the world has the capacity to produce some of these drugs or elements of.

Just imaging if AstraZ were to give the recipe to Roche or Novatis or Glaxo.

It's the patents holding back production.

 

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3 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

We have facilities right here to produce AZ. (CSL)

(The mRNA vaccines are impractical for world distribution anyway)

Every major pharma company in the world has the capacity to produce some of these drugs or elements of.

Just imaging if AstraZ were to give the recipe to Roche or Novatis or Glaxo.

It's the patents holding back production.

 

Your imagination is running wild.

we cant even do it with steel. Fucking steel, today in the news:

New York (CNN Business)A bubble could be brewing in steel stocks.

The pandemic brought the American steel industry to its knees last spring, forcing manufacturers to shut down production as they struggled to survive the imploding economy. But as the recovery got underway, mills were slow to resume production, and that created a massive steel shortage.
Now, the reopening of the economy is driving a steel boom so strong that some are convinced it will end in tears.

The correction will be very intense. It's just a matter of when and how it happens." 

PHIL GIBBS, DIRECTOR OF METALS EQUITY RESEARCH AT KEYBANC CAPITAL MARKETS

"This is going to be short-lived. It's very appropriate to call this a bubble," Bank of America analyst Timna Tanners told CNN Business, using the "b-word" that equity analysts from major banks typically avoid.
 
 
After bottoming out around $460 last year, US benchmark hot-rolled coil steel prices are now sitting at around $1,500 a ton, a record high that is nearly triple the 20-year average.
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Ahem. Our CSL is producing the AZ vaccine under licence from AZ.

The CSL (Commonwealth serum Laboratory) is a private company that usually produces flu vaccines.

https://www.csl.com/

Your Aluminium/steel analogy is flawed. You cant magic up an aluminium smelter or use the microwave to make steel. 

Serum labs are kind of designed around making up new vaccines.

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21 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I have to disagree. Without profit there will be no investment. This tech exists because a shit-ton of venture capital $s were expended over the last 10 + years. pull the profit motive and yes, you'll get cheaper vaccines now (not that $s are at all an issue at the moment) but the VC money will dry up. 

 

Biden would be better off to negotiate with the firms lower royalties, and to build a WTO fund to pay for the vaccines.

The USA paid in advance for the research that Pfizer did. I'm not sure about any others, but I do remember that Pfizer got a huge research advance.

 And the fact is that these companies, corporations, invest huge sums on research that often goes nowhere. So to get a basically get out of jail free card in advance was a huge bonus. They got paid whether they found a vaccine or not. Now there's the potential for lots more big bucks. They can offer the rights for a modest fee, or get it taken from them because it's already been paid for. Seems like a no brainer to me, but I'm not a greedy motherfucker.

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24 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

The USA paid in advance for the research that Pfizer did. I'm not sure about any others, but I do remember that Pfizer got a huge research advance.

 And the fact is that these companies, corporations, invest huge sums on research that often goes nowhere. So to get a basically get out of jail free card in advance was a huge bonus. They got paid whether they found a vaccine or not. Now there's the potential for lots more big bucks. They can offer the rights for a modest fee, or get it taken from them because it's already been paid for. Seems like a no brainer to me, but I'm not a greedy motherfucker.

Actually, Pfizer was paid to scale up production. The vaccine is actually licensed to them (see how that works?) by a German firm, founded by Turkish immigrants....

 

hence why it’s quite important to listen to the Germans on this one...

 

and no, we don’t have all the precursor items just sitting on the shelf @Shortforbob. Don’t you remember the swab shortages? How about the vial shortages? needle shortages? 
 

patents aren’t the problem

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23 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

The USA paid in advance for the research that Pfizer did. I'm not sure about any others, but I do remember that Pfizer got a huge research advance.

 And the fact is that these companies, corporations, invest huge sums on research that often goes nowhere. So to get a basically get out of jail free card in advance was a huge bonus. They got paid whether they found a vaccine or not. Now there's the potential for lots more big bucks. They can offer the rights for a modest fee, or get it taken from them because it's already been paid for. Seems like a no brainer to me, but I'm not a greedy motherfucker.

No that’s Moderna.  Pfizer had over $15B in cash and cash equivalents in 2020.  They were paid to manufacture the vaccine but obviously they were going to do that anyway and had the resources to do so.  Plus as previously pointed out Pfizer is a partner to BioNtech a German company who actually  came up with the vaccine.  

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9 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

No that’s Moderna.  Pfizer had over $15B in cash and cash equivalents in 2020.  They were paid to manufacture the vaccine but obviously they were going to do that anyway and had the resources to do so.  Plus as previously pointed out Pfizer is a partner to BioNtech a German company who actually  came up with the vaccine.  

OK. I'll stand corrected. My memory is good, but it's not as good as it used to be. be. be. be. be.

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10 hours ago, Olsonist said:

@justsomeguyI was noticing that you said, Only for big pharma, then warbird said No..... for all IP, then you said it won't be the death knell for IP. Then warbird said Slippery slope. He was moonwalking.

During WWII, the great Hedy Lamarr, that Hedy Lamarr, co-invented what became known as Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum. Qualcomm's CDMA uses a variant of spread spectrum, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum. But even Qualcomm says CDMA derives from Lamarr's idea. Anyways, this was during WWII and while she was granted a patent

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2292387

it was not allowed to be published during the war, thus violating Lamarr's IP rights.

We can do this sort of regulation because Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 grants Congress the enumerated power To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries. That is an enumerated power granted to Congress and not an individual right.

Is it not a slippery slope?

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Because Communism?

I dont see how you can separate IP of pharma from IP of authors, playwrights, engineering etc. with out lessening the protection they have.  Slippery slope.

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55 minutes ago, warbird said:

I dont see how you can separate IP of pharma from IP of authors, playwrights, engineering etc. with out lessening the protection they have.  Slippery slope.

Olsonist gave an example of how it has been done selectively. 

 

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1 hour ago, warbird said:

I dont see how you can separate IP of pharma from IP of authors, playwrights, engineering etc. with out lessening the protection they have.  Slippery slope.

Ah yes.  After watching four years of a guy doing basically anything he wanted, warbird can't see his way to letting other people make it to save lives because slippery slope.  

Tell me Mr.we can't do it, did you scream in protest when the government used the war powers act to force private companies into production of ventilators? 

Or is this just more selective outrage? 

And pray tell, just what is the slippery slope we are going to slide down? 

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On 5/6/2021 at 10:49 AM, Raz'r said:

I have to disagree. Without profit there will be no investment.

How much did US taxpayer invest and what's the profit margins? 

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34 minutes ago, Venom said:

How much did US taxpayer invest and what's the profit margins? 

Yes, the taxpayers make both direct and indirect (socialistic) investments. In a just world, in the past (MAGA!), the taxpayer's investment would be repaid by taxes on the huge dividends, monster salaries, retained earnings, and capital gains booked by the corporations. All of those are presently being avoided by a hundred clever schemes. Schemes both legislated and otherwise.

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3 hours ago, Grrr... said:

Ah yes.  After watching four years of a guy doing basically anything he wanted, warbird can't see his way to letting other people make it to save lives because slippery slope.  

Tell me Mr.we can't do it, did you scream in protest when the government used the war powers act to force private companies into production of ventilators? 

Or is this just more selective outrage? 

And pray tell, just what is the slippery slope we are going to slide down? 

FOXITUS! It's spreading like Ebola. 

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Hmm, who owns the IP.... I'm pretty sure it's not Joe Biden. As such he has no grounds to give away anything... 

More problematic than that is if everyone has the formulation not everyone (particularly 3rd world nations and china) will not produce it correctly and create a vaccine that may not work (China's is only 50% effective) or worse cause other yet to be discovered heath issues... There are reasons to to leave things like this to the experts... 

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3 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Hmm, who owns the IP.... I'm pretty sure it's not Joe Biden. As such he has no grounds to give away anything... 

More problematic than that is if everyone has the formulation not everyone (particularly 3rd world nations and china) will not produce it correctly and create a vaccine that may not work (China's is only 50% effective) or worse cause other yet to be discovered heath issues... There are reasons to to leave things like this to the experts... 

I can respect you on this standpoint because it is consistent.  But if that's the stand we take then it's our responsibility to get the vaccine to poor countries ourselves. It's also time for the world to unite against China.  They have more money than just about any country and continue to be one of the most self absorbed bad actors in the planet. Pressure needs to be applied by everyone.  They could fund vaccines for the rest of the world without blinking an eye. 

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I guess it sounds good to say "take away the patent protection so anyone can make it"

but

We'd all agree it would be nice to have about 12 billion doses available, distributed and injected by tomorrow. 

So, that can't be done, why?

Is it REALLY patents getting in the way?

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10 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I guess it sounds good to say "take away the patent protection so anyone can make it"

but

We'd all agree it would be nice to have about 12 billion doses available, distributed and injected by tomorrow. 

So, that can't be done, why?

Is it REALLY patents getting in the way?

It’s DemocRATS in the way. 

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Just now, Sol Rosenberg said:

It’s DemocRATS in the way. 

For some reason(I think I know why, call it deflection), the leaders of India and South Africa are clamoring for it, saying it will solve the problem, which I find absurd.  Hell, Modi is just another Populist Leader ala Trump, ala Bolsonaro, etc.

Dude needs to look in the mirror and blame himself for what's happening in India.

 

If you're interested ( @Shortforbob) this article runs through it. Broader licensing, etc, might help long term, but there IS a capacity problem, today, just like my steel example:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22419842/vaccine-patents-biden-pfizer-moderna-johnson-astrazeneca

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22 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

 the poor die by the millions it will be the greatest crime against humanity ever.

 

:lol: Sorry, I forgot how pointless it is to respond to any of you inane, attention seeking posts.

Have a good weekend.

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

I can respect you on this standpoint because it is consistent.  But if that's the stand we take then it's our responsibility to get the vaccine to poor countries ourselves. It's also time for the world to unite against China.  They have more money than just about any country and continue to be one of the most self absorbed bad actors in the planet. Pressure needs to be applied by everyone.  They could fund vaccines for the rest of the world without blinking an eye. 

I might be wrong, but as I said before, the point is to allow other Pharma companies access to the formulas (in M Shelly terms)

This means that the huge manufacturing capabilities of companies like Roche can come into play, where ever they may be.

It's not about giving countries access to the formula, it's about giving countries access to vaccines through greater worldwide production. 

AstraZenica is not even in the top ten.

Ask yourselves, If some tiny little company or lab in CUBA, had got the best vaccine, would the same countries still be protesting the IP release?

It's about bucks

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50 minutes ago, Gissie said:

:lol: Sorry, I forgot how pointless it is to respond to any of you inane, attention seeking posts.

Have a good weekend.

strange response to my perfectly civil response to your post.

Oh of course, it's the morning after the night before.:rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, Shortforbob said:

strange response to my perfectly civil response to your post.

Oh of course, it's the morning after the night before.:rolleyes:

True, it was civil, but also inane.

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

For some reason(I think I know why, call it deflection), the leaders of India and South Africa are clamoring for it, saying it will solve the problem, which I find absurd.  Hell, Modi is just another Populist Leader ala Trump, ala Bolsonaro, etc.

Dude needs to look in the mirror and blame himself for what's happening in India.

 

If you're interested ( @Shortforbob) this article runs through it. Broader licensing, etc, might help long term, but there IS a capacity problem, today, just like my steel example:

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22419842/vaccine-patents-biden-pfizer-moderna-johnson-astrazeneca

Thanks for that. 

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6 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Thanks for that. 

np, I learned a few things in the article myself.

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5 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Hmm, who owns the IP.... I'm pretty sure it's not Joe Biden. As such he has no grounds to give away anything... 

More problematic than that is if everyone has the formulation not everyone (particularly 3rd world nations and china) will not produce it correctly and create a vaccine that may not work (China's is only 50% effective) or worse cause other yet to be discovered heath issues... There are reasons to to leave things like this to the experts... 

Well, of course he's a Democrat so he does not have the broad powers to regulate national and international policy that, say, President Trump would have (if he knew how to pronounce any of that).

Incorrect production would not be a problem to the IP originator, but it does potentially open the door to a bunch of other problems.  It would also open up the pharma markets considerably, which of course the big-buck donors don't want.

The bigger question is, what is the biggest barrier to producing more of the best vaccines? Chemical precursors? Factory capacity? Skilled labor? We need to ramp up in a bunch of areas, not just increasing production.

 

1 hour ago, Grrr... said:
5 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

...

I can respect you on this standpoint because it is consistent.  But if that's the stand we take then it's our responsibility to get the vaccine to poor countries ourselves. It's also time for the world to unite against China.  They have more money than just about any country and continue to be one of the most self absorbed bad actors in the planet. Pressure needs to be applied by everyone.  They could fund vaccines for the rest of the world without blinking an eye. 

Agreed on most counts, but it's only partly a question of money. We really only have two viable paths forward- protect IP but work on increasing production (and I'd include farming this out to anybody that can make it properly & efficiently) and distributing it widely; -or- open up IP on vaccine patents but carefully oversea production and work at knocking down the other barriers to getting the most possible shots into the most possible arms.

Remember, this is certain to happen again in the next ~20ish years. We obviously need the practice

- DSK

.

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12 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:

Olsonist gave an example of how it has been done selectively. 

 

The Olsonist example was a temporary war time hold, not a waiver.  What happens when Joe Blow patents the 150 mpg carburator?

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6 minutes ago, warbird said:

The Olsonist example was a temporary war time hold, not a waiver.  What happens when Joe Blow patents the 150 mpg carburator?

And what Sth Africa and India asked for was a temporary waver.

They want the WTO to temporarily suspend intellectual property rights so that COVID-19 vaccines and other new technologies are accessible for poor countries. Ann Danaiya Usher reports.
South Africa and India have called for the World Trade Organization (WTO) to suspend intellectual property (IP) rights related to COVID-19 to ensure that not only the wealthiest countries will be able to access and afford the vaccines, medicines, and other new technologies needed to control the pandemic. The pharmaceutical industry and many high-income countries (HICs) staunchly oppose the move, which they say will stifle innovation when it is needed most.
Without special measures, proponents argue, rich countries will benefit from new technologies as they come onto the market, while poor nations continue to be devastated by the pandemic. The proposal states that IP rights such as patents are obstructing affordable COVID-19 medical products. A temporary ban would allow multiple actors to start production sooner, instead of having manufacturing concentrated in the hands of a small number of patent holders.
“What this waiver proposal does is it opens space for further collaboration, for the transfer of technology and for more producers to come in to ensure that we have scalability in a much shorter period of time”, says Mustaqeem De Gama, counsellor at the South African Permanent Mission to the WTO, who helped write the proposal.
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