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American Abandonment of Innocent Afghanis to Slaughter


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7 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I never said anything about them getting involved in a contested election.  I said later on down the road as he dismantled all of our democratic forms of gov't and assumed a much more authoritarian stance as his nature would dictate.  I don't think he could help himself.

But I take it from your response that you would also roll over and let it happen.  What if he declared himself president for life, installed EC to vote whatever they wanted he told them to in CA despite the vote and the Congress and the Fed judges he installed went along with it???  I personally don't think even the Federal and SC judges he nominated would go along with that, but what if he just ignored them?  Then what?  

You ok with that?  Or does it just get another one of your "mehs"?  At what point in all of this - if any - does the military get involved?

 

I've already discussed this.

Trump came very close to getting the Congress to declare him the legally elected President, despite whatever judges and the EC had already said.

What would happen next? Would the military kick him out? They specifically said they would not. The Supremes? How many armored division do they command?

- DSK

 

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3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I've already discussed this.

Trump came very close to getting the Congress to declare him the legally elected President, despite whatever judges and the EC had already said.

What would happen next? Would the military kick him out? They specifically said they would not. The Supremes? How many armored division do they command?

- DSK

 

Don't forget the whole shitload of people in and out of government keeping a low profile until they knew who looked like they were coming out on top that would have LOVED to be saluting Fuhrer Trump

Period 3's LA Wiki / Hitler Youth

 

It would have been a much bigger mess than many imagine, especially if they had managed to find Pence and Pelosi, who would presumably have been dead by the end of the day.

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55 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I never said anything about them getting involved in a contested election.  I said later on down the road as he dismantled all of our democratic forms of gov't and assumed a much more authoritarian stance as his nature would dictate.  I don't think he could help himself.

But I take it from your response that you would also roll over and let it happen.  What if he declared himself president for life, installed EC to vote whatever they wanted he told them to in CA despite the vote and the Congress and the Fed judges he installed went along with it???  I personally don't think even the Federal and SC judges he nominated would go along with that, but what if he just ignored them?  Then what?  

You ok with that?  Or does it just get another one of your "mehs"?  At what point in all of this - if any - does the military get involved?

 

So, Question. Who you going to shoot?  The retired military guys calling for support of their guy? The security guy at the WH gate? 

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57 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I never said anything about them getting involved in a contested election.  I said later on down the road as he dismantled all of our democratic forms of gov't and assumed a much more authoritarian stance as his nature would dictate.  I don't think he could help himself.

But I take it from your response that you would also roll over and let it happen.  What if he declared himself president for life, installed EC to vote whatever they wanted he told them to in CA despite the vote and the Congress and the Fed judges he installed went along with it???  I personally don't think even the Federal and SC judges he nominated would go along with that, but what if he just ignored them?  Then what?  

You ok with that?  Or does it just get another one of your "mehs"?  At what point in all of this - if any - does the military get involved?

 

But he would be the legal CiC.

Why would the military, who report to him, not do what he said, like illegally take money from the troops to build a wall?

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7 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

1- no, the source of small arms is not irrelevant, because you're basing you're assumption that they'll appear like magic because you want them

Arms will, in fact, appear like magic.

America has no sort of monopoly on people who make money off war. There will allways be external parties who wish to see one group in a civil war flourish at the expense of the others.

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5 hours ago, Saorsa said:

So, his bragging wasn't enough evidence?

You are confused about the timeline. No bragging occurred until years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11_attacks#Al-Qaeda_statements_after_9/11

In May 2002, FBI Director Robert Mueller noted that his organization had not uncovered a single piece of paper, "either here in the U.S. or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere", that mentioned any aspect of the September 11 plot.[69]

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I've already discussed this.

Trump came very close to getting the Congress to declare him the legally elected President, despite whatever judges and the EC had already said.

What would happen next? Would the military kick him out? They specifically said they would not. The Supremes? How many armored division do they command?

- DSK

 

I'm not disputing that.  Now what?  What would you do?  Just sit back and let it happen?

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4 hours ago, Raz'r said:

But he would be the legal CiC.

Why would the military, who report to him, not do what he said, like illegally take money from the troops to build a wall?

No he would NOT be the legal CINC!  Not at all. 

If he had been successful in getting the senate to declare him the winner and toss out the EC vote, then absolutely no he would not have been the legal CINC.  Note, the military said they would honor the "EC vote".  Not congress's overturning of it.  Had the worst happened and they had forced congress to overturn the EC - do you think the military would have stayed out?  I don't think so.  Maybe in the early days in the immediate aftermath to see what the courts ruled and whether their orders were followed - the military would have kept their powder dry.  But I believe when it became obvious that the constitution was being overturned, they would have had no choice but to intervene.  

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6 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

No he would NOT be the legal CINC!  Not at all. 

If he had been successful in getting the senate to declare him the winner and toss out the EC vote, then absolutely no he would not have been the legal CINC.  Note, the military said they would honor the "EC vote".  Not congress's overturning of it.  Had the worst happened and they had forced congress to overturn the EC - do you think the military would have stayed out?  I don't think so.  Maybe in the early days in the immediate aftermath to see what the courts ruled and whether their orders were followed - the military would have kept their powder dry.  But I believe when it became obvious that the constitution was being overturned, they would have had no choice but to intervene.  

I have seen no sign of any major pushback from the military regarding Odious One's diktats. Rank and file seem to be generally split between supporting the suppurating lesion that is Trumpism and standing by democracy.

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5 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I have seen no sign of any major pushback from the military regarding Odious One's diktats. Rank and file seem to be generally split between supporting the suppurating lesion that is Trumpism and standing by democracy.

You have not seen it because it didn't happen.  That's not what we're talking about here.  Please try to keep up......  Just saying.

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

No he would NOT be the legal CINC!  Not at all. 

If he had been successful in getting the senate to declare him the winner and toss out the EC vote, then absolutely no he would not have been the legal CINC.  Note, the military said they would honor the "EC vote".  Not congress's overturning of it.  Had the worst happened and they had forced congress to overturn the EC - do you think the military would have stayed out?  I don't think so.  Maybe in the early days in the immediate aftermath to see what the courts ruled and whether their orders were followed - the military would have kept their powder dry.  But I believe when it became obvious that the constitution was being overturned, they would have had no choice but to intervene.  

Dreamin.

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15 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Dreamin.

You still haven't answered what you would do in that event - that he became a bona fide diktator and tore up the Big C LIVE! on Fox & Friends?  

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

No he would NOT be the legal CINC!  Not at all. 

If he had been successful in getting the senate to declare him the winner and toss out the EC vote, then absolutely no he would not have been the legal CINC.  Note, the military said they would honor the "EC vote".  Not congress's overturning of it.  Had the worst happened and they had forced congress to overturn the EC - do you think the military would have stayed out?  I don't think so.  Maybe in the early days in the immediate aftermath to see what the courts ruled and whether their orders were followed - the military would have kept their powder dry.  But I believe when it became obvious that the constitution was being overturned, they would have had no choice but to intervene.  

On which side?    Your faith in your former comrades was optimistic.  https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/958915267/nearly-one-in-five-defendants-in-capitol-riot-cases-served-in-the-militaryO    20% of the insurrectionists took the same oath you did.   Fortunately they suffered the fate of divided leadership while Trump squandered his moment babbling about what he was going to do, instead of acting.   

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10 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

You are confused about the timeline. No bragging occurred until years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11_attacks#Al-Qaeda_statements_after_9/11

In May 2002, FBI Director Robert Mueller noted that his organization had not uncovered a single piece of paper, "either here in the U.S. or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere", that mentioned any aspect of the September 11 plot.[69]

No shit, couldn't find a piece of paper.

Don't the dumbfucks know that a lot of society has gone paperless?

https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/osama-bin-laden-911-confession-13506877

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/al-qaeda-releases-video-of-bin-laden-before-911/

 

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8 hours ago, Burning Man said:

You still haven't answered what you would do in that event - that he became a bona fide diktator and tore up the Big C LIVE! on Fox & Friends?  

Wouldn't much matter, would it?

The military, and everyone else in government swears their oath to uphold the constitution.  That's more than a piece of paper that can be torn up.

There's a lot of it in the first three words.  We the People means that we have to accept some responsibility for that adherence.  The oath is NOT absolute submission.

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-orders-3332819

 

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9 hours ago, Burning Man said:

You still haven't answered what you would do in that event - that he became a bona fide diktator and tore up the Big C LIVE! on Fox & Friends?  

That is not how it would go down as Trump and, except for a few Republican congress persons, demonstrated.  They were using the constitution as justification for their actions and almost half the voters still believe that.  They are "protecting" the constitution and (the best) American values.

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11 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I'm not disputing that.  Now what?  What would you do?  Just sit back and let it happen?

I'm already on record saying that I would have already left the country, if not for being unable to persuade my family. America is fucked IMHO, Trump is just a symptom and your irrational ranting and name-calling is another symptom.

If it turns out I have to participate in the civil war after all, what will I do? No fun telling, better to let it be a surprise

- DSK

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12 hours ago, Burning Man said:

You still haven't answered what you would do in that event - that he became a bona fide diktator and tore up the Big C LIVE! on Fox & Friends?  

Answer for yourself first.

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12 hours ago, Burning Man said:

You still haven't answered what you would do in that event - that he became a bona fide diktator and tore up the Big C LIVE! on Fox & Friends?  

Why would he tear it up if he was re-elected due to Republican complicity? He would’ve won. The military has said they will follow the legal prez. It would be legal

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When Augustus became emperor, princeps, he kept the Senate around. Hell, Caligula even appointed his horse Incitatus to the Senate.

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I see..... so we have here a bunch of pussies who talk a big game.  But when it comes to actually protecting and preserving the Connie, Democracy, and "the Republic for which we stand"..... y'all either plan to flee the country like Steam Liar or bow down to the emperor and kiss his ring (both gold and cinnamon).  Sorry, fuck that shit!

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6 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I see..... so we have here a bunch of pussies who talk a big game.  But when it comes to actually protecting and preserving the Connie, Democracy, and "the Republic for which we stand"..... y'all either plan to flee the country like Steam Liar or bow down to the emperor and kiss his ring (both gold and cinnamon).  Sorry, fuck that shit!

And you're too much a pussy to say what you'll do.  So it must be "nothing"

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13 hours ago, Saorsa said:

No shit, couldn't find a piece of paper.

Don't the dumbfucks know that a lot of society has gone paperless?

https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/osama-bin-laden-911-confession-13506877

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/al-qaeda-releases-video-of-bin-laden-before-911/

 

As your links confirm, there was nothing in the way of even the most feeble evidence until months after the war had started.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I see..... so we have here a bunch of pussies who talk a big game.  But when it comes to actually protecting and preserving the Connie, Democracy, and "the Republic for which we stand"..... y'all either plan to flee the country like Steam Liar or bow down to the emperor and kiss his ring (both gold and cinnamon).  Sorry, fuck that shit!

Rule one of underground resistance:   Compartmentalize.   Why would I make it easy for the Trump justice department to identify me and any hypothetical plans to subvert the party and glorious leader? (Assuming Lark isn’t just a sock to divert attention from a loyal Republican Trumper eager to kill Pence and Pelosi).   

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10 hours ago, Raz'r said:

And you're too much a pussy to say what you'll do.  So it must be "nothing"

I have said what I will do.  But here, I'll answer you in the clearest terms possible and hope you'll do the same (while not holding my breath):

IF some future president or gov't was clearly acting in an unconstitutional manner and IF all remedies were exhausted such as the courts, congress, voting, etc - i.e they had all been disbanded or subverted to the point where they no longer existed in a recognizable way - then I would uphold my oath to the constitution and protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic.  Through whatever means necessary.

So for instance - if trump stood up in 2024 after successfully winning another term and announced on FOX news live that he was declaring himself El Presidente for life and that the federal courts including the SC were to be disbanded and/or ignored, congre henceforth ss would answer to him alone and so on and that henceforth DHS and ICE were to be his own personal army..... you're damned right I would do whatever was necessary to restore democracy and the rule of law to this country.

Now your turn, r;zr......

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10 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I see..... so we have here a bunch of pussies who talk a big game.  But when it comes to actually protecting and preserving the Connie, Democracy, and "the Republic for which we stand"..... y'all either plan to flee the country like Steam Liar or bow down to the emperor and kiss his ring (both gold and cinnamon).  Sorry, fuck that shit!

Oooo internet tough guy

25 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I have said what I will do.  But here, I'll answer you in the clearest terms possible and hope you'll do the same (while not holding my breath):

IF some future president or gov't was clearly acting in an unconstitutional manner and IF all remedies were exhausted such as the courts, congress, voting, etc - i.e they had all been disbanded or subverted to the point where they no longer existed in a recognizable way - then I would uphold my oath to the constitution and protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic.  Through whatever means necessary.

So for instance - if trump stood up in 2024 after successfully winning another term and announced on FOX news live that he was declaring himself El Presidente for life and that the federal courts including the SC were to be disbanded and/or ignored, congre henceforth ss would answer to him alone and so on and that henceforth DHS and ICE were to be his own personal army..... you're damned right I would do whatever was necessary to restore democracy and the rule of law to this country.

Now your turn, r;zr......

And if it doesn't play out like your fantasy scenario? If Trump or anybody manages to "persuade' the states to crook to EC votes, or bullies the Congress into declaring whatever, and the courts are ambivalent, and there is a President that a very vocal 49% of the country accepts as legit even though the process was cooked from one or two angles... then what, Mr Internet Tough Guy? The Constitution would be just as dead.

 DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Oooo internet tough guy

And if it doesn't play out like your fantasy scenario? If Trump or anybody manages to "persuade' the states to crook to EC votes, or bullies the Congress into declaring whatever, and the courts are ambivalent, and there is a President that a very vocal 49% of the country accepts as legit even though the process was cooked from one or two angles... then what, Mr Internet Tough Guy? The Constitution would be just as dead.

 DSK

I've already answered what I would do.  What will YOU do Mr tough gay guy in the event of your scenario above?  Run away to Argentina?  Or suck some more mushroom while lamenting what might have been?

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2 hours ago, Burning Man said:

the federal courts including the SC were to be disbanded and/or ignored, congre henceforth ss would answer to him alone and so on and that henceforth DHS and ICE were to be his own personal army.

Ahhhh, well, he already did that from 2016 to 2020. Where have you been ? 

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Just now, AJ Oliver said:

Ahhhh, well, he already did that from 2016 to 2020. Where have you been ? 

In the middle of the country watching a bunch of loons attempting to take over the US government. I'm not sure exactly where on the Insurrection Scale you have to be for Jeff to consider taking up arms.

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On 5/12/2021 at 5:33 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

You have a weird definition of "chased". The Taliban has nothing even remotely close to the ability to chase the USA out of anything.

OTOH blowing them up doesn't improve anything, there is always more of them someplace and they seem to like it anyway.

So....no chasing..........just realizing the issues of that country are not going to be fixed by any outside country ever and finding something better to do with our time and money.

Yeah - and you coulda kicked their asses in Veet Nyam too if those lefty assholes hadn't stabbed you in the back.

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38 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

So....no chasing..........just realizing the issues of that country are not going to be fixed by any outside country

tenor.gif

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6 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I've already answered what I would do.  What will YOU do Mr tough gay guy in the event of your scenario above?  Run away to Argentina?  Or suck some more mushroom while lamenting what might have been?

I already said. Did you forget, that quick?

Boothie does hard drugs, what's your excuse?

- DSK

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I would flee probably flee the country and move to the United States of New England, unless of course Pennsylvania was part of the United States of New England, in which case I would have left the country by staying home. 

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5 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Yeah - and you coulda kicked their asses in Veet Nyam too if those lefty assholes hadn't stabbed you in the back.

You REALLY need to do some reading. General Giap's book on the war would be a very good start. He knew full well North Vietnam had zero chance of winning a flat-out war and they never did come close to being able to. He knew the war would be won "On streets of Washington DC, not in Vietnam". He was entirely correct. It took a lot longer than it should have, but eventually the American public realized the war they were sold on was not the war that they were fighting and the North Vietnamese were not just going to quit. It was go all in, maintain the war at a low boil forever, or go home. There was no support for going all in and just like Afghanistan, the local government that was supposedly on our side didn't seem to care as much about winning as we did.

This is not "being stabbed in the back by the left", the left never liked the war. This was more like the middle finally realizing it was an endless waste of money and lives fighting over a place that didn't really matter to them that much.

* Also ask AJ to chime in, may returning vets spread the word the war was a mongolian cluster fuck. I have a very right-wing family member that fought in Vietnam. He was there about 5 days before deciding that the place was a dump and the Vietnamese should be free to fight among themselves over it without Americans in the way :rolleyes:

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Video showing the execution of the last secular leader in Afghanistan Dr Najibullah by the Taliban when they seized power.

He was dragged from a UN compound beaten dragged behind a truck castrated shot then had his body strung up for all to see.

It comes from a Pakistani account hardly surprising as the Saudis and Pakistan were the only countries to recognise the Taliban as legitimate leaders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYGp_5gt00s

 

 

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I saw on CNN that Trump also tried to withdraw from Africa and Germany.....but failed.    Was his failure a good thing, or just a failure?   

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3 hours ago, Lark said:

I saw on CNN that Trump also tried to withdraw from Africa and Germany.....but failed.    Was his failure a good thing, or just a failure?   

He also tried to withdraw from California and Puerto Rico. More colitis interruptus.

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On 5/14/2021 at 8:12 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

Also ask AJ to chime in, may returning vets spread the word the war was a mongolian cluster fuck. I have a very right-wing family member that fought in Vietnam. He was there about 5 days before deciding that the place was a dump and the Vietnamese should be free to fight among themselves over it without Americans in the way :rolleyes:

Well, that was what I saw when there in 1968-69. I was a Remf and just did my job, but unbeknownst to me, out there is the field there were very large mutinies among the US troops. Here is a good source on that . .  https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/Vietnam/heinl.html#96

"the place was a dump" - a typical response from not-so-mature young 'un. The Vietnamese people are every bit as human at those on the Eastern Shore - maybe more. 

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2 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, that was what I saw when there in 1968-69. I was a Remf and just did my job, but unbeknownst to me, out there is the field there were very large mutinies among the US troops. Here is a good source on that . .  https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/Vietnam/heinl.html#96

"the place was a dump" - a typical response from not-so-mature young 'un. The Vietnamese people are every bit as human at those on the Eastern Shore - maybe more. 

Not to mention "Air America" and the heroin trade! btw- Huge numbers of vets came back addicted.

 

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5 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, that was what I saw when there in 1968-69. I was a Remf and just did my job, but unbeknownst to me, out there is the field there were very large mutinies among the US troops. Here is a good source on that . .  https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/Vietnam/heinl.html#96

"the place was a dump" - a typical response from not-so-mature young 'un. The Vietnamese people are every bit as human at those on the Eastern Shore - maybe more. 

Depending on what part of the Shore possibly lots more :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, that was what I saw when there in 1968-69. I was a Remf and just did my job, but unbeknownst to me, out there is the field there were very large mutinies among the US troops. Here is a good source on that . .  https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/Vietnam/heinl.html#96

"the place was a dump" - a typical response from not-so-mature young 'un. The Vietnamese people are every bit as human at those on the Eastern Shore - maybe more. 

Re the mutiny paper - I didn't see a lot of what I would call a mutiny in there, more like widespread insubordination. I guess it is semantics, but I think of a mutiny as an organized affair, like say a whole unit marching off to Thailand or something. This was more like soldiers finally realizing they were in a war not being fought to win and deciding it wasn't worth their lives to make someones body count checklist or whatever.

* countless books about Vietnam have dealt with the scenario of the grizzled sergeant that has been there for two or three tours trying to keep his men alive being led by a fresh lieutenant that has been in country a week or two totally clueless and gung-ho to win the war next week. I think "fragging" is the term for the end result.

It also makes you think about the draft. The Army was stuck with a bunch of soldiers who did not want to be there, which they probably never want to do again, but it puts a brake on stupid wars too, people might think differently about wars if THEY or THEIR KIDS might get sent there with no choice in the matter.

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

It also makes you think about the draft. The Army was stuck with a bunch of soldiers who did not want to be there, which they probably never want to do again, but it puts a brake on stupid wars too, people might think differently about wars if THEY or THEIR KIDS might get sent there with no choice in the matter

We have spirited discussions on the draft in VFP. Many of us were draft resisters, and firmly oppose its reintroduction. 

And actually, Milton Friedman first became known among the foreign policy elite by opposing the draft very early on. 

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2 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

We have spirited discussions on the draft in VFP. Many of us were draft resisters, and firmly oppose its reintroduction. 

And actually, Milton Friedman first became known among the foreign policy elite by opposing the draft very early on. 

Really? I did not know Milton Friedman opposed the draft, that must have been before the RWNJ-media started buttering his bread

- DSK

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Just now, Steam Flyer said:

Really? I did not know Milton Friedman opposed the draft, that must have been before the RWNJ-media started buttering his bread

I did not know it either until recently. 

As one might expect, Friedman opposed the draft from a libertarian perspective - based on individual freedumb. 

The militarists bought into it because at that time (late 1960's) the draft had engendered fierce resistance - youngsters by the hundreds of thousands were refusing to report for duty. 

https://oll.libertyfund.org/page/friedman-on-a-volunteer-army

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On 5/13/2021 at 8:36 PM, Battlecheese said:

As your links confirm, there was nothing in the way of even the most feeble evidence until months after the war had started.

 

 

 

You seem to forget the African embassy bombings which had plenty of linkage to Al Qaeda a OBL.

You are happily reading a piece of bullshit.

I will agree that the FBI said that they didn't find a single piece of paper.  Perhaps the opposition didn't hand it to them on a silver platter to take to a secret court to get secret warrants.

OBL and Al Qaeda were certainly in the signts of every US intelligence agency and were being tracked.  But, hey, without the FBI having a piece of paper, what can you do, whatever can you do.

 

Here, from Nov 5, 1998

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1998-11-05-1998309022-story.html

WASHINGTON -- A federal grand jury formally charged Osama bin Laden yesterday in the bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa, describing the Saudi exile as the leader of a nine-year conspiracy, reaching from the Philippines to New York, to kill Americans.

The indictment, returned in U.S. District Court in Manhattan, marked the first time that bin Laden himself has been charged in the bombings, though U.S. officials had blamed him within hours of the two blasts Aug. 7. Those bombings killed 213 people -- including 12 Americans -- in Nairobi, Kenya, and 11 people in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. Thousands more were injured.

Muhammad Atef, a man identified as military commander of bin Laden's organization, was also accused in the 50-page indictment. The State Department announced rewards of up to $5 million each for the arrest and conviction of bin Laden and Atef. Bin Laden, heir to a Saudi construction fortune, was last reported to be in Afghanistan.

Four other men were also charged in the conspiracy.

But, yep, the FBI couldn't find a piece of paper.

Here is another paper for you the LA Times

https://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-bill-clinton-osama-bin-laden-20140801-story.html

A day before Sept. 11, 2001, former President Bill Clinton told an audience that he could have had Osama bin Laden killed, but chose not to, because an attack could have endangered innocent women and children in Afghanistan.

Speaking to businessmen in Australia, Clinton said he had a shot at Bin Laden, whose Al Qaeda organization would launch attacks the next day that left about 3,000 dead at the World Trade Center, Washington, D.C. and in western Pennsylvania.

“I’m just saying, you know, if I were Osama bin Laden ... He’s a very smart guy. I spent a lot of time thinking about him. And I nearly got him once,” Clinton said in the audio recording from the meeting, according to a Sky News Australia report this week.

“I nearly got him. And I could have killed him, but I would have to destroy a little town called Kandahar in Afghanistan and kill 300 innocent women and children, and then I would have been no better than him.”

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4 hours ago, Saorsa said:

You seem to forget the African embassy bombings which had plenty of linkage to Al Qaeda a OBL.

This is of course not relevant when trying to pin the WTC crash on him.

4 hours ago, Saorsa said:

OBL and Al Qaeda were certainly in the signts of every US intelligence agency and were being tracked.  But, hey, without the FBI having a piece of paper, what can you do, whatever can you do.

It's not about some nerd who "knows he did it".

Evidence. Much harder to get.

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19 hours ago, Saorsa said:

“I nearly got him. And I could have killed him, but I would have to destroy a little town called Kandahar in Afghanistan and kill 300 innocent women and children, and then I would have been no better than him.”

I call BS on Bill's braggadocio.  First of all, Kandahar is not a "little town" and it wouldn't have required carpet bombing the entire city to get him.  If they supposedly had good enough intel to know where he was, then the collateral damage would have been much lower than 300.  

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13 hours ago, Battlecheese said:
19 hours ago, Saorsa said:

OBL and Al Qaeda were certainly in the signts of every US intelligence agency and were being tracked.  But, hey, without the FBI having a piece of paper, what can you do, whatever can you do.

It's not about some nerd who "knows he did it".

Evidence. Much harder to get.

We didn't need to try OBL in a court of law in order to whack him.  I'm glad I've been able to finally disabuse you of that silly notion.  

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On 5/13/2021 at 10:22 PM, AJ Oliver said:
On 5/13/2021 at 7:44 PM, Burning Man said:

the federal courts including the SC were to be disbanded and/or ignored, congre henceforth ss would answer to him alone and so on and that henceforth DHS and ICE were to be his own personal army.

Ahhhh, well, he already did that from 2016 to 2020. Where have you been ? 

Fair point.  But we were not anywhere near that trigger point yet.  Even his own judges said no on occasion and he changed course as a result.  

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On 5/13/2021 at 10:24 PM, Ishmael said:

In the middle of the country watching a bunch of loons attempting to take over the US government. I'm not sure exactly where on the Insurrection Scale you have to be for Jeff to consider taking up arms.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.  The insurrection that occured in no way had any legal backing or constitutional justification.  It was flat out wrong irregardless of what the insurrectionists "believed".  Had that insurrection on 6 Jan succeeded and shitstain was able to overturn the legitimate election and stage a coup...... then I would say that scale you mentioned would have been at or rapidly approaching the "taking up arms" point.  Just saying.

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Here is a new essay by Matt Ho on the topic of the OP 

He's a Vets For Peace member. 

I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, but he for sure is 

more informed on the subject than I am. 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/17/opinions/afghanistan-withdrawal-critics-get-wrong-hoh/index.html?fbclid=IwAR3lVRgO6yDHb5uYrg60mRw1ejca3Y_aHnJM7cfWPHHdEnElzikSr9vVN8Q

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2 hours ago, Burning Man said:

The insurrection

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D imagine had it been muslim "extremists" backed by Putin and Assad! This is war. :ph34r:  

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2 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.  The insurrection that occured in no way had any legal backing or constitutional justification.  It was flat out wrong irregardless of what the insurrectionists "believed".  Had that insurrection on 6 Jan succeeded and shitstain was able to overturn the legitimate election and stage a coup...... then I would say that scale you mentioned would have been at or rapidly approaching the "taking up arms" point.  Just saying.

“Protect My Supporters” 

we weren’t approaching it. We were there until the NG deployed. 

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On 5/14/2021 at 7:34 AM, LenP said:

I would flee probably flee the country and move to the United States of New England, unless of course Pennsylvania was part of the United States of New England, in which case I would have left the country by staying home. 

I'm gonna head for the People's Republic of Ecotopia 

image.jpeg.e0fb5bd05903ff157d455924a6ea74ed.jpeg

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22 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

“Protect My Supporters” 

we weren’t approaching it. We were there until the NG deployed. 

Trump is alive and well is Rosy's head! Go Trump go! :D

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30 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

“Protect My Supporters” 

we weren’t approaching it. We were there until the NG deployed. 

Ok, which means we weren't really there at all.  Because the NG and the military didn't go along with it.  For there to be a legitimate armed rebellion IN SUPPORT OF the constitution - Pretty much ALL constitutional forms of gov't would have to be destroyed or subsumed by the authoritarian.  There were, FORTUNATELY, enough aspects of the legitimate enterprises of gov't that didn't go along with shitstain that ensured that his little insurrection and coup attempt would fail.

What I fear the most is that future despots will have taken notes on what went wrong so that they don't make that mistake again.  I have long said that shit spoon's biggest downfall was that he couldn't keep his mouth shut.  If he had had the cunning and discipline to do much of what he did behind closed doors and behind a veil of "need to know" and used the usual platitudes of well groomed politicians...... we would likely be in a far darker place right now.  A future wannbe dicktator will not be so stupid, me worries......

The good news is that trumples at least exposed many or most of our flaws in gov't and in democracy.  For a democracy to actually work, it's a bit on the honor system.  For the checks and balances to work, each branch of gov't has to be willing to do the right thing.  We have seen that at least 2 of the 3 had zero intention of doing the right thing.  Joe Biden is a good man and I'm glad he's at the helm and I believe our Republic is safe under him.  But he won't be around forever and there are too many people waiting in the wings that will not be either so noble or so honest.  If we don't address these flaws now, I do fear for the future of our republic.   

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2 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Ok, which means we weren't really there at all.  Because the NG and the military didn't go along with it.  For there to be a legitimate armed rebellion IN SUPPORT OF the constitution - Pretty much ALL constitutional forms of gov't would have to be destroyed or subsumed by the authoritarian.  There were, FORTUNATELY, enough aspects of the legitimate enterprises of gov't that didn't go along with shitstain that ensured that his little insurrection and coup attempt would fail.

What I fear the most is that future despots will have taken notes on what went wrong so that they don't make that mistake again.  I have long said that shit spoon's biggest downfall was that he couldn't keep his mouth shut.  If he had had the cunning and discipline to do much of what he did behind closed doors and behind a veil of "need to know" and used the usual platitudes of well groomed politicians...... we would likely be in a far darker place right now.  A future wannbe dicktator will not be so stupid, me worries......

The good news is that trumples at least exposed many or most of our flaws in gov't and in democracy.  For a democracy to actually work, it's a bit on the honor system.  For the checks and balances to work, each branch of gov't has to be willing to do the right thing.  We have seen that at least 2 of the 3 had zero intention of doing the right thing.  Joe Biden is a good man and I'm glad he's at the helm and I believe our Republic is safe under him.  But he won't be around forever and there are too many people waiting in the wings that will not be either so noble or so honest.  If we don't address these flaws now, I do fear for the future of our republic.   

We might want to hold off on conclusions until some people have given testimony under oath. There are many questions to be answered still.

You are right about this being a trial run. That's exactly what it was, after trial runs in state houses in various states. They will be back. 

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

Ok, which means we weren't really there at all.  Because the NG and the military didn't go along with it.  For there to be a legitimate armed rebellion IN SUPPORT OF the constitution - Pretty much ALL constitutional forms of gov't would have to be destroyed or subsumed by the authoritarian.  There were, FORTUNATELY, enough aspects of the legitimate enterprises of gov't that didn't go along with shitstain that ensured that his little insurrection and coup attempt would fail.

What I fear the most is that future despots will have taken notes on what went wrong so that they don't make that mistake again.  I have long said that shit spoon's biggest downfall was that he couldn't keep his mouth shut.  If he had had the cunning and discipline to do much of what he did behind closed doors and behind a veil of "need to know" and used the usual platitudes of well groomed politicians...... we would likely be in a far darker place right now.  A future wannbe dicktator will not be so stupid, me worries......

The good news is that trumples at least exposed many or most of our flaws in gov't and in democracy.  For a democracy to actually work, it's a bit on the honor system.  For the checks and balances to work, each branch of gov't has to be willing to do the right thing.  We have seen that at least 2 of the 3 had zero intention of doing the right thing.  Joe Biden is a good man and I'm glad he's at the helm and I believe our Republic is safe under him.  But he won't be around forever and there are too many people waiting in the wings that will not be either so noble or so honest.  If we don't address these flaws now, I do fear for the future of our republic.   

I agree with you. In addition to Trump not being able to keep his mouth shut he was also loathe to use the military and didn’t really know how. Perhaps  somebody smarter and more experienced could? That’s my fear. If we get to a point where the demographics work against the extreme right and they are backed into a corner we could have a bigger problem. 

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10 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

I agree with you. In addition to Trump not being able to keep his mouth shut he was also loathe to use the military and didn’t really know how. Perhaps  somebody smarter and more experienced could? That’s my fear. If we get to a point where the demographics work against the extreme right and they are backed into a corner we could have a bigger problem. 

The demographics already don't work, hence the hundreds of "restrict the vote" measures being passed right now.

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On 5/14/2021 at 5:12 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

You REALLY need to do some reading. General Giap's book on the war would be a very good start. He knew full well North Vietnam had zero chance of winning a flat-out war and they never did come close to being able to. He knew the war would be won "On streets of Washington DC, not in Vietnam". He was entirely correct. It took a lot longer than it should have, but eventually the American public realized the war they were sold on was not the war that they were fighting and the North Vietnamese were not just going to quit. It was go all in, maintain the war at a low boil forever, or go home. There was no support for going all in and just like Afghanistan, the local government that was supposedly on our side didn't seem to care as much about winning as we did.

This is not "being stabbed in the back by the left", the left never liked the war. This was more like the middle finally realizing it was an endless waste of money and lives fighting over a place that didn't really matter to them that much.

* Also ask AJ to chime in, may returning vets spread the word the war was a mongolian cluster fuck. I have a very right-wing family member that fought in Vietnam. He was there about 5 days before deciding that the place was a dump and the Vietnamese should be free to fight among themselves over it without Americans in the way :rolleyes:

Yeah, yeah, yeah - never lost a battle, just lost the war.

You had to read a book to understand what went on there?

I was a teenager/early 20's when it was max'd out and it was obvious what was going on - a superpower trying to stop a guerrilla civil war in the jungle with conventional forces designed to fight in Europe.

Right wingers are amazing.

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9 hours ago, Burning Man said:

We didn't need to try OBL in a court of law in order to whack him.  I'm glad I've been able to finally disabuse you of that silly notion.  

 

You:  .

 

The point ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> .

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Yeah, yeah, yeah - never lost a battle, just lost the war.

You had to read a book to understand what went on there?

I was a teenager/early 20's when it was max'd out and it was obvious what was going on - a superpower trying to stop a guerrilla civil war in the jungle with conventional forces designed to fight in Europe.

Right wingers are amazing.

I am not sure about right wingers being amazing, but reading about the war from the perspective of the North Vietnamese commanding general is quite interesting. Plus they all had a bug up their asses because they thought the USA should have helped them kick France out of there, not jump in to help on the French side.

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20 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am not sure about right wingers being amazing, but reading about the war from the perspective of the North Vietnamese commanding general is quite interesting. Plus they all had a bug up their asses because they thought the USA should have helped them kick France out of there, not jump in to help on the French side.

Yes, I know a number of Vietnamese who live in America and their take is that we totally took the wrong side.

Their perspective is also that the Vietnam War really started in about 1790 when the French first showed up and tried to take over. At that time, Vietnam was divided into two countries and had recently been 3 countries. They fought the French takeover for 50 or 60 years and then fought to kick them out for another hundred years.

Oriana Fallaci interviewed General Giap in the early 1980s, very interesting... he is far more responsible for the North Vietnamese / Viet Minh victory than Uncle Ho, IMHO

- DSK

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I was a teenager/early 20's when it was max'd out and it was obvious what was going on - a superpower trying to stop a guerrilla civil war in the jungle with conventional forces designed to fight in Europe.

We're talking about Afghanistan, right?

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am not sure about right wingers being amazing, but reading about the war from the perspective of the North Vietnamese commanding general is quite interesting. Plus they all had a bug up their asses because they thought the USA should have helped them kick France out of there, not jump in to help on the French side.

In the war museum in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) they have Ho's letters to various presidents posted in one section.  They were very interesting reading - Ho presented some very good cases for the US ending its involvement.  Mostly the Vietnamese have forgiven the US for their part in the war, and see it as just a huge mistake that the US made that couldn't be unwound without embarrassing important people in the US.  They were even a bit sympathetic to the plight of the US soldiers who were there for no particularly good reason, being injured and killed in a pointless exercise.

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:
4 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I was a teenager/early 20's when it was max'd out and it was obvious what was going on - a superpower trying to stop a guerrilla civil war in the jungle with conventional forces designed to fight in Europe.

We're talking about Afghanistan, right?

You were in Afghanistan when it had jungle? Fuck, you're old.

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On 5/19/2021 at 9:40 PM, Ishmael said:

You were in Afghanistan when it had jungle? Fuck, you're old.

Kandahar... Shit... I'm still only in Khandahar... Every time I think I'm gonna wake up back in the jungle. When I was home after my first tour it was worse. I'd wake up and there'd be nothing. I hardly said a word to my wife until I said yes to a divorce. When I was here I wanted to be there. When I was there, all I could think of was getting back into the jungle. I'm here a week now, waiting for a mission, getting softer. Every minute I stay in this room I get weaker. And every minute Achmed squats in the bush he gets stronger. Each time I look around the walls move in a little tighter...

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21 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Kandahar... Shit... I'm still only in Khandahar... Every time I think I'm gonna wake up back in the jungle. When I was home after my first tour it was worse. I'd wake up and there'd be nothing. I hardly said a word to my wife until I said yes to a divorce. When I was here I wanted to be there. When I was there, all I could think of was getting back into the jungle. I'm here a week now, waiting for a mission, getting softer. Every minute I stay in this room I get weaker. And every minute Achmed squats in the bush he gets stronger. Each time I look around the walls move in a little tighter...


May be an image of text that says 'oH LOOK... rdator IT'S WEAPONS CLEANING DAY IN THE AIR FORCE!'

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On 5/28/2021 at 12:07 PM, badlatitude said:


May be an image of text that says 'oH LOOK... rdator IT'S WEAPONS CLEANING DAY IN THE AIR FORCE!'

HA!  That fucking funny!  I am so stealing that.

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The U.K. Is Accelerating Resettlement Efforts for Afghan Interpreters. The U.S. Should Do the Same.

Afghan Interpreters Risked Everything To Help American Soldiers. Now They Might Be Left Behind.

Some of their countrymen no doubt believe that those articles should be in an American Abandonment of Complicit Afghanis to Slaughter thread.

 

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41 minutes ago, Excoded Tom said:

The U.K. Is Accelerating Resettlement Efforts for Afghan Interpreters. The U.S. Should Do the Same.

Afghan Interpreters Risked Everything To Help American Soldiers. Now They Might Be Left Behind.

Some of their countrymen no doubt believe that those articles should be in an American Abandonment of Complicit Afghanis to Slaughter thread.

 

They should have known better after Bush abandoned their colleagues in Iraq for torture and murder.  

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Don't know where else to to put this. 

Somewhere upthread I said something to the effect of "Americans want peace in Afghanistan more than Afghanis want peace in Afghanistan."

And today the news is that bunch of guys clearing landmines in Afghanistan were shot by Afghanis.  What kind of miserable person are you that shoots the people risking their lives every day to clear out landmines?  Landmines are amongst the most evil of weapons and kill indiscriminately.  

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57410265

This kind of thing makes me question the future of humanity.  

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When the Taliban are back in control, they're likely to stamp out the opium trade again.

The world's junkies are in for a serious heroin shortage/price hike, and China will have to double Fentanyl production to keep up with the demand.

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