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4ksb upgrades / improvements


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Hi folks – so I’m in the process of doing upgrades / improvements on a new to me 1983 C&C 29 mk2 for local racing / daysailing on Lake Ontario.  I know it’s a 4ksb – it would never keep up with the Melges 20 I sold, but it’s a heck of lot more comfortable to sail.  There was never a place for a BBQ on a Melges 20. 

Even though the boat is old, the deck (balsa cored) and hull (f'glass, no balsa) are actually bone dry – doesn’t look like anyone drilled new holes in the deck anywhere!  It already has jib and spin sheet winches, but pretty much everything else is original.

So here’s my plan:

2021:

-          Installed boomkicker to replace topping lift

-          GFlex’d the C&C smile (this could be a regular fix)

-          Replaced sheets (jib/spin)

-          Installed tweakers

-          New main (North Radial dacron, couldn’t justify the price of 3Di)

-          Trim laminate #1 to fit on the furler (makes it easier to double-hand)

-          Velocitek (if we get racing this year)

2022:

-          New instruments (probably B&G Triton speed/depth/wireless wind)

-          New halyards (MLX3) and all other running rigging (mast is already up, so will replace once I drop the stick in the fall)

-          Replace sheet stoppers / deck organizers

-          Replace vang / backstay / mast base blocks (main sheet blocks are decent with bearings)

-          Replace all lights with LED

-          New AGM batteries (may require replacement of the existing battery charger)

-          New spinnaker (probably symmetrical)

 

SO 2 questions:

  • For daysailing/club racing is 3Di overkill?  I had them on the Melges 20 and they were far more durable than laminate sails and their shape was great, but the price differential is substantial (2x) from dacron.

 

  • anything else?  I've thought about replacing the furler with a Harken CarboFoil, but the furler makes it a lot easier to daysail and race doublehanded.

 

It doesn’t have a stove – hence the BBQ. 

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13 minutes ago, KC64000 said:

anything else?  I've thought about replacing the furler with a Harken CarboFoil, but the furler makes it a lot easier to daysail and race doublehanded.

C&C 27 here. FWIW, our furler cut the forestay up top a few years ago (mast survived). Sounds like you're probably OK this year before the planned 2022 replacement.

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5 minutes ago, stief said:

C&C 27 here. FWIW, our furler cut the forestay up top a few years ago (mast survived). Sounds like you're probably OK this year before the planned 2022 replacement.

Good suggestion - add looking at all the standing rigging when we drop the mast in the fall.

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Why wait?  With a comment like @KC64000 I would be thinking about seeing if you could pull the drum to drop the foil a few inches and go up the mast for a quick look.  

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If you're racing, then obvious weight out of the ends and the masthead is critical.  IF you're carrying the anchor in the bow, relocated it.  If you've got wind instruments, shitcan them.  ON a 27 foot boat, you shouldn't need wind instruments.  Same for stuff like radar reflectors and the like.  If you race on smaller lakes, dump antennaes from the top of the mast - handheld or stern rail antennaes will do everything you need.  I can't remember of the '27 has a topping lift.  Dump it if you have a vang / boom kicker because it's just windage at that point.  Depends how far you're going to go, but dump the winches on the mast and run the lines aft to save weight and improve the sailing experience.

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Your list is very similar to the list for my 29mk2.

I've bought a full suit of sails: Main, 135% Genoa, 105% Jib, S1.5 (0.6oz), S2+(1.5oz), and a 1oz Mylar 135% Drifter. White sails are all Dacron.

I've got all of the running rigging on my list. I had another thread on it but I was going to do Warpspeed for the halyards and genoa sheets but MLX3 or similar for everything else. I had another thread on here going through it.

On my to-do list (without duplicates from your list):

- Install second Jib Halyard. There's a second sheave up there so I just need to run the line.

- Add Spinnaker winches or jammers on the cheek blocks to help with barberhaulers/peels.

- 8:1 purchase on the babystay.

- reaching strut

Being able to tension the babystay makes a huge difference in getting mast bend.

I've done a lot of cruiser upgrades to the boat out here like a 100A alternator, 420Ah of house batteries, LED lights, 200ft of 1/4" chain, fridge, etc.

 

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10 hours ago, stief said:

C&C 27 here. FWIW, our furler cut the forestay up top a few years ago (mast survived). Sounds like you're probably OK this year before the planned 2022 replacement.

Why not just get rid of the furler and go hanks with a slab reef.  Weight off the bow and will retain sail shape when reefed vs rolled.  Plus the sail doesn’t live in the element when not being used.  

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21 hours ago, George Hackett said:

Why not just get rid of the furler and go hanks with a slab reef.  Weight off the bow and will retain sail shape when reefed vs rolled.  Plus the sail doesn’t live in the element when not being used.  

I have hanks on my tri, so know what you mean. The C&C is the wife's preference (proper head), and she loves it that the headsail can be furled from the cockpit. As for weathering, I can always take it down the at the dock. Mostly, though, I gave up caring about that last final tweak to sail shape when I accepted carrying the kit needed for a wife happy to come sailing with me and who even tolerates my need to change the fairleads every few tacks.

She wants me in the cockpit all the time so she doesn't have to. Come to think of it, a furling jib might be a net benefit keeping the weight of a bowman off the front :) 

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On 5/14/2021 at 6:01 PM, climenuts said:

Your list is very similar to the list for my 29mk2.

I've bought a full suit of sails: Main, 135% Genoa, 105% Jib, S1.5 (0.6oz), S2+(1.5oz), and a 1oz Mylar 135% Drifter. White sails are all Dacron.

I've got all of the running rigging on my list. I had another thread on it but I was going to do Warpspeed for the halyards and genoa sheets but MLX3 or similar for everything else. I had another thread on here going through it.

On my to-do list (without duplicates from your list):

- Install second Jib Halyard. There's a second sheave up there so I just need to run the line.

- Add Spinnaker winches or jammers on the cheek blocks to help with barberhaulers/peels.

- 8:1 purchase on the babystay.

- reaching strut

Being able to tension the babystay makes a huge difference in getting mast bend.

I've done a lot of cruiser upgrades to the boat out here like a 100A alternator, 420Ah of house batteries, LED lights, 200ft of 1/4" chain, fridge, etc.

 

That all looks very sensible, 2 questions.

Reaching strut on a 29 footer?

Do you have 2 kite halyards? If so you probably don't need 2 jib halyards, just borrow a kite one as required.

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9 hours ago, European Bloke said:

That all looks very sensible, 2 questions.

Reaching strut on a 29 footer?

Do you have 2 kite halyards? If so you probably don't need 2 jib halyards, just borrow a kite one as required.

Reaching strut to keep the afterguy off the lifelines, stanchions, and shrouds. It's low on the list but it's on the list.

Only one kite halyard so I don't have an extra to borrow.

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On my old 30'er, my favourite upgrades have been oversized Vectran halyards, new Spinlock clutches, and new self-tailing winches. Got a new 3Di 135% genoa last year which is a dream to use in COVID shorthanded sailing. Bloody expensive though.

Can you really use a kite halyard (which exits above forestay attachment) for a jib halyard (which exits below)? This always seemed risky to me so I have never tried it. My set up is a frac rig with Tuff Luff head foil. No furling. If it's safe, that would mean I could do headsail peels since, for now, I too have only one jib halyard.

Sorry for slight thread drift!

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On 5/15/2021 at 2:32 PM, stief said:

I have hanks on my tri, so know what you mean. The C&C is the wife's preference (proper head), and she loves it that the headsail can be furled from the cockpit. As for weathering, I can always take it down the at the dock. Mostly, though, I gave up caring about that last final tweak to sail shape when I accepted carrying the kit needed for a wife happy to come sailing with me and who even tolerates my need to change the fairleads every few tacks.

She wants me in the cockpit all the time so she doesn't have to. Come to think of it, a furling jib might be a net benefit keeping the weight of a bowman off the front :) 

Lots of boats that race have furling for the jib/genny.  It’s more a question of whether it’s designed as a cruising sail with a high clew (for visibility) and a UV cover or a racing sail with low clew and no UV  cover.  Just cuz you have a furler doesn’t mean the sail must live on the furler all the time.  You can drop and flake up your racing sail with a furler just like you do if you don’t have one.  Plus on spin sets and takedowns, dousing and setting the jib/genny is a breeze, and should something go wrong with the spin, it’s easy to get the headsail blackout and flying.  For a boat that’s beercan and casual club racing, a furler makes a lot of sense.  Plus when cruising, you can leave the sail on the furler and just pull a “sock” style I’ve cover up over it with that second jib halyard

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14 hours ago, rico said:

On my old 30'er, my favourite upgrades have been oversized Vectran halyards, new Spinlock clutches, and new self-tailing winches. Got a new 3Di 135% genoa last year which is a dream to use in COVID shorthanded sailing. Bloody expensive though.

Can you really use a kite halyard (which exits above forestay attachment) for a jib halyard (which exits below)? This always seemed risky to me so I have never tried it. My set up is a frac rig with Tuff Luff head foil. No furling. If it's safe, that would mean I could do headsail peels since, for now, I too have only one jib halyard.

Sorry for slight thread drift!

Back in the day it was pretty standard for small/medium sized boats to be set up with a headfoil, 1 jib halyard, and 2 kite halyards. The boats were fractionally rigged and the kite halyards very close to the hounds.

Using a kite halyard to peel headsails was normal, claim it back then you next drop the headsail.

I don't know what the big boys did.

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2 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Back in the day it was pretty standard for small/medium sized boats to be set up with a headfoil, 1 jib halyard, and 2 kite halyards. The boats were fractionally rigged and the kite halyards very close to the hounds.

Using a kite halyard to peel headsails was normal, claim it back then you next drop the headsail.

I don't know what the big boys did.

Edit, you obviously can't use a headsail halyard for a kite

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23 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Edit, you obviously can't use a headsail halyard for a kite

the other way around will eat your halyard pretty fast, too... (tried it...)

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On 5/18/2021 at 11:19 AM, climenuts said:

Reaching strut to keep the afterguy off the lifelines, stanchions, and shrouds. It's low on the list but it's on the list.

Only one kite halyard so I don't have an extra to borrow.

I wouldn’t waste the money or effort on the reaching strut for a boat that size. We quit hauling it along on my friend’s C&C 33 years ago. We’ve had it loaded up to the limit on reaches with no ill effects. It was absolutely necessary on the sled I raced on, but those loads were insane. 

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On 5/14/2021 at 12:16 PM, Irrational 14 said:

Before you do anything, put the best bottom your budget allows and keep it faired and spotless.

Fairing the forward half of the hull, and fairing/templating the keel will pay the biggest dividends in sailing.

Unless you have old crappy blown-out sails, but it looks like you're already half-way or more up that mountain.

Next is getting weight out of the boat, as mentioned, get everything out of the ends and off the mast that you can.

FB- Doug

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What got done on the 29MK2 I raced and cruised on.

Get rid of old layers of bottom paint.

5 coats of epoxy barrier.

Primary self tailers.

Garhauer rigid vang.

Get rid of the stock main traveler. Replaced with Garhauer system.

Check top and bottom rudder bearings.

Speaking as the guy who worked the pointy end, Carbofoil or Tuff Luff for quick race winning peels.

Check pins on #3 jib cars.  When under load the jib sheet will cause the car to slide back.

Instruments, we don't need no stinkin instruments.  We sailed half of a Lake Ontario 300 with no power...still won our division.

Service the head.

Check every tiny odd angled storage area down low.  You WILL find water.

Windows leak.

Good luck finding a comfortable steering position.

We put an oversized wheel on.

Use small thick foam cushions to save your ass while driving.

Reef early!

 

Formerly Wee Beastie 2

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4 hours ago, Monkey said:

I wouldn’t waste the money or effort on the reaching strut for a boat that size. We quit hauling it along on my friend’s C&C 33 years ago. We’ve had it loaded up to the limit on reaches with no ill effects. It was absolutely necessary on the sled I raced on, but those loads were insane. 

Yep, correctly placed twinners will achieve most of that.

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On 5/18/2021 at 9:19 AM, climenuts said:

Reaching strut to keep the afterguy off the lifelines, stanchions, and shrouds. It's low on the list but it's on the list.

I haven't seen one of those things for a couple of decades.

I actually owned one once.

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On 5/14/2021 at 4:49 PM, George Hackett said:

Why not just get rid of the furler and go hanks with a slab reef.  Weight off the bow and will retain sail shape when reefed vs rolled.  Plus the sail doesn’t live in the element when not being used.  

And it stays on deck when you are short handed or single handed, drops real quick from the back of the boat.

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1983? You didn't mention the age of the standing rigging. I suggest you replace it and closely inspect the tangs or hook holes on the mast. Also see if the chain plates are pulling through the bulkheads if that's how they're attached.

Then, to second what's been mentioned above,  fair the keel, rudder and front of hull.

Then, sail a lot, with your head out of the boat, THEN worry about bells, whistles and sails.

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You don’t need to drop the rig to change halyards, but, if everything is original you might want to consider changing the sheaves when you replace the halyards.

Stick with Dacron, sounds like the priority is fun with the wife and she’s likely not going to care in the least about 3di. Spend the difference on new interior cushions. Ask me how I know.

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