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Don't remember who here on SA said it, but a Helo is described as many hundreds of moving parts trying to destroy one another.  I think it was PB posted it.

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My buddy, who works in aviation, described a helicopter as a collection of spare parts flying in roughly the same direction 

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Who the fuk was the aviation expert in the last century that said 'In theory....helicopters can't fly'....?

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My buddy who survived two stints (and two crashes!) as a door gunner in Nam told me that helicopters do not actually fly and there is some sort of mass hallucination that makes them appear to do so.

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13 minutes ago, El Mariachi said:

Who the fuk was the aviation expert in the last century that said 'In theory....helicopters can't fly'....?

That was none other than Igor Sikorski.  He said that it had been aerodynamically proven that bumblebees can't fly, and it's the same with helicopters.

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5 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

My buddy who survived two stints (and two crashes!) as a door gunner in Nam told me that helicopters do not actually fly and there is some sort of mass hallucination that makes them appear to do so.

I'm pretty sure that that was the era when one airman first said to another airman 'Here, hold my Thai stick'......

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They have the advantage of being able to auto-rotate with a dead engine - makes crashing one a little more survivable than a fixed wing.

Re: that ship landing - IIRC the RCN has a winch rig that lets them pick up a hook and cable dropped from the chopper and winch them down onto the deck.

Sort of a bastard child of a carrier arrestor hook.

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33 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

They have the advantage of being able to auto-rotate with a dead engine - makes crashing one a little more survivable than a fixed wing.

Re: that ship landing - IIRC the RCN has a winch rig that lets them pick up a hook and cable dropped from the chopper and winch them down onto the deck.

Sort of a bastard child of a carrier arrestor hook.

Reverse umbilical cord?....

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I have flown (if thats what you call it) in lots of helicopters with many recon hours over fires, being transported in and out of LZ's at fires and some lesser number of rescues.........lots..............hate them.

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47 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

They have the advantage of being able to auto-rotate with a dead engine - makes crashing one a little more survivable than a fixed wing.

Re: that ship landing - IIRC the RCN has a winch rig that lets them pick up a hook and cable dropped from the chopper and winch them down onto the deck.

Sort of a bastard child of a carrier arrestor hook.

 

Tell that to Kobe Bryant and his daughter and pilot!!  Fixed wing will glide and you just head for the least threatening roadway, meadow, beach, or trees. 

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46 minutes ago, Point Break said:

I have flown (if thats what you call it) in lots of helicopters with many recon hours over fires, being transported in and out of LZ's at fires and some lesser number of rescues.........lots..............hate them.

 

I believe it was a post of yours that prompted me to post this above.....

Don't remember who here on SA said it, but a Helo is described as many hundreds of moving parts trying to destroy one another.  I think it was PB posted it.

 

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3 hours ago, F_L said:

Helicopters don't fly. They just beat the earth into submission.

Helicopters don't fly, they are so ugly that the Earth repels them.

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Boeing and Sikorski are testing this one.  The SB-1 Defiant.  Dual rotor, and a prop on the back, said to do 250 knots, about 100 more than any other.  I rather like this approach.  No idea if it will autogyro to a landing, though.

Sikorsky–Boeing SB-1 Defiant (cropped).jpg

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8 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Don't remember who here on SA said it, but a Helo is described as many hundreds of moving parts trying to destroy one another.  I think it was PB posted it.

They're not trying to destroy each other. Just get away from each other.

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1 hour ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

East to admit, that pilot, man or woman, has much bigger balls than I do.

Not sure of the circumstances, but it could have been a do-or-ditch situation.

But yes, huevos grande.

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5 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Tell that to Kobe Bryant and his daughter and pilot!!  Fixed wing will glide and you just head for the least threatening roadway, meadow, beach, or trees. 

English not your first language?

What part of "a little more" don't you understand?

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Don’t know if I told this…….old guys always start with that disclaimer…….so I’m assigned to a big fire in a wilderness area where the fire is at about 6500-7500 elevation and base camp is in a meadow at about 3500. It’s timber with brush understory. So for my division we were flying up to one of the LZ’s at the fire at around 7000 feet. Every morning same thing…..breakfast 0500, Ops briefing at 0600, helibase by 0700, load up tools etc and lift off shortly afterwards. Fly through a saddle in the ridge at around 7000 feet and down onto a high meadow. Unload, night shift is waiting and loads up for the ride down. Work all day, around 1700 back to the LZ, the helo arrives with the night shift, trade off and fly down to base for chow and bed. Did this everyday for weeks. Well this makes for a very busy helibase with lots of rotary wing shit coming and going. Water dropping helo’s, recon ships, and crew transport ships. With that many aircraft, many if not most are private contractors ships. The one assigned to crew and equipment transport for our side of the fire was an ancient Sikorsky H-34 Choctaw. It was painted…..purple. We called it “Barney”. When Barney was fully loaded with crew and gear it REALLY struggled……REALLY struggled……to get to the altitude to pass through the saddle on the ridge just skimming the treetops before dropping into the meadow where the LZ was. Every time I thought the thing was gonna fly apart. So the first morning we get in and I notice inside on the deck is a little thin film of what looks like hydraulic fluid on part of the deck. Barney is turning the rotors as we load hot and it’s really loud. The Crew Chief is getting us settled so when he passes me I grab him and point to the sheen on the deck with a WTF look. He smiles…..and into my ear he shouts “that’s hydraulic fluid. If you ever get in and there’s none on the deck, get back out because it means there’s none in the bird”. He thumps me on the helmet and heads up next to the pilot and off we go. 
 

I hate helicopters. 

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4 hours ago, Point Break said:

Don’t know if I told this…….old guys always start with that disclaimer…….so I’m assigned to a big fire in a wilderness area where the fire is at about 6500-7500 elevation and base camp is in a meadow at about 3500. It’s timber with brush understory. So for my division we were flying up to one of the LZ’s at the fire at around 7000 feet. Every morning same thing…..breakfast 0500, Ops briefing at 0600, helibase by 0700, load up tools etc and lift off shortly afterwards. Fly through a saddle in the ridge at around 7000 feet and down onto a high meadow. Unload, night shift is waiting and loads up for the ride down. Work all day, around 1700 back to the LZ, the helo arrives with the night shift, trade off and fly down to base for chow and bed. Did this everyday for weeks. Well this makes for a very busy helibase with lots of rotary wing shit coming and going. Water dropping helo’s, recon ships, and crew transport ships. With that many aircraft, many if not most are private contractors ships. The one assigned to crew and equipment transport for our side of the fire was an ancient Sikorsky H-34 Choctaw. It was painted…..purple. We called it “Barney”. When Barney was fully loaded with crew and gear it REALLY struggled……REALLY struggled……to get to the altitude to pass through the saddle on the ridge just skimming the treetops before dropping into the meadow where the LZ was. Every time I thought the thing was gonna fly apart. So the first morning we get in and I notice inside on the deck is a little thin film of what looks like hydraulic fluid on part of the deck. Barney is turning the rotors as we load hot and it’s really loud. The Crew Chief is getting us settled so when he passes me I grab him and point to the sheen on the deck with a WTF look. He smiles…..and into my ear he shouts “that’s hydraulic fluid. If you ever get in and there’s none on the deck, get back out because it means there’s none in the bird”. He thumps me on the helmet and heads up next to the pilot and off we go. 
 

I hate helicopters. 

But you gotta' love an honest crew chief.

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1 hour ago, Navig8tor said:

Two words "ground resonance" shows you how quickly things can go wrong in a helo.

Isn’t that what happened to one of the helos sent to get Mr. bin Laden?  As I recall they trained in a replica compound where the walls were made of chain link.  When they go in to do the real thing, the real, solid walls reacted in unexpected ways with the prop wash and down they went.  Call in the Chinook.

 

Used to work on a drill ship and did the helo commute.  Was fun for a minute leaving the ship, as they did a hover over the pad for a second before diving down to gain speed before going up.  Looked for a bit like they were diving straight for the sea and then a pull up at the last second, but was probably more controlled than that.  That job lasted a year before the Boston-Paris-West Africa commute in un-upgradable sub-cattle class got old.

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2 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

Two words "ground resonance" shows you how quickly things can go wrong in a helo.

 

Word to the wise: If the blades are still turning - you stay were you are, if you can.   

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NTSB report said Bryant’s aircraft entered instrument conditions without the pilot being rated for or flying on instruments. He hit th ground because he didn’t know it was there, he didn’t  lose power. 

Given the choice, all things being equal,  I would rather lose power in a large rotor wing than a big plane. A big helicopter can put down in a small space, not the same with a large fixed wing. 

If I remember correctly, the autogyro actually has one of the safest records of any aircraft type. It’s always in autorotation.

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8 hours ago, Point Break said:

Don’t know if I told this…….old guys always start with that disclaimer…….so I’m assigned to a big fire in a wilderness area where the fire is at about 6500-7500 elevation and base camp is in a meadow at about 3500. It’s timber with brush understory. So for my division we were flying up to one of the LZ’s at the fire at around 7000 feet. Every morning same thing…..breakfast 0500, Ops briefing at 0600, helibase by 0700, load up tools etc and lift off shortly afterwards. Fly through a saddle in the ridge at around 7000 feet and down onto a high meadow. Unload, night shift is waiting and loads up for the ride down. Work all day, around 1700 back to the LZ, the helo arrives with the night shift, trade off and fly down to base for chow and bed. Did this everyday for weeks. Well this makes for a very busy helibase with lots of rotary wing shit coming and going. Water dropping helo’s, recon ships, and crew transport ships. With that many aircraft, many if not most are private contractors ships. The one assigned to crew and equipment transport for our side of the fire was an ancient Sikorsky H-34 Choctaw. It was painted…..purple. We called it “Barney”. When Barney was fully loaded with crew and gear it REALLY struggled……REALLY struggled……to get to the altitude to pass through the saddle on the ridge just skimming the treetops before dropping into the meadow where the LZ was. Every time I thought the thing was gonna fly apart. So the first morning we get in and I notice inside on the deck is a little thin film of what looks like hydraulic fluid on part of the deck. Barney is turning the rotors as we load hot and it’s really loud. The Crew Chief is getting us settled so when he passes me I grab him and point to the sheen on the deck with a WTF look. He smiles…..and into my ear he shouts “that’s hydraulic fluid. If you ever get in and there’s none on the deck, get back out because it means there’s none in the bird”. He thumps me on the helmet and heads up next to the pilot and off we go. 
 

I hate helicopters. 

One of the reasons I never worked in aviation; the range of temp & pressure that hydraulic system has to work under is more than double that of a similar system in a nice safe stationary plant. Or even in an earth-mover with all the dirt trying to get in.

And when shit goes wrong, you ain't walking home.

- DSK

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16 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

They have the advantage of being able to auto-rotate with a dead engine - makes crashing one a little more survivable than a fixed wing.

Re: that ship landing - IIRC the RCN has a winch rig that lets them pick up a hook and cable dropped from the chopper and winch them down onto the deck.

Sort of a bastard child of a carrier arrestor hook.

Bear trap system - how to land a Sea King on a 2500 ton DDE in the North Atlantic.  The USN thought we were nuts, but they also didn't believe you could fly jet fighters off a 16000 ton carrier.

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10 hours ago, Point Break said:

 the first morning we get in and I notice inside on the deck is a little thin film of what looks like hydraulic fluid on part of the deck. Barney is turning the rotors as we load hot and it’s really loud. The Crew Chief is getting us settled so when he passes me I grab him and point to the sheen on the deck with a WTF look. He smiles…..and into my ear he shouts “that’s hydraulic fluid. If you ever get in and there’s none on the deck, get back out because it means there’s none in the bird”. He thumps me on the helmet and heads up next to the pilot and off we go. 
 

I hate helicopters. 

Kind of like an old English motorcycle - it there isn't some oil under it in the morning, check the dipstick.

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19 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Kind of like an old English motorcycle - it there isn't some oil under it in the morning, check the dipstick.

And old biplanes: Oil-free windscreen means you will soon be a glider.

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    I was surprised to see an autogyro flying up the beach here on the Redneck Riviera last week. We have had a small helo operation doing sightseeing tours for years using little R-44's and wondered what was up with the autogyro. There was a story this morning about a new operation using Italian gyros from Jack Edwards Airport and doing the stretch from Ft Morgan at the mouth of Mobile Bay to the pass at Pensacola. I started reading this thread and Googled to find a video of the guy who wrote the newsblurb. He made a big deal about how accessable it was to to get seated in the auto from his wheelchair for his flight. 

 

    I still like GyroGirl but it is getting harder to find her videos...

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16 hours ago, billy backstay said:

 

Tell that to Kobe Bryant and his daughter and pilot!!  Fixed wing will glide and you just head for the least threatening roadway, meadow, beach, or trees. 

Kobe and others on the flight died because the pilot was an idiot. When he encountered the fog/visibility issue, he should have gone back to the Van Nuys airport and they all could have taken a limo to TO. Not a big deal to be late, but it is to be dead.

 

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I love autogyros. I will have one someday.
CH46s leaked hydraulic fluid so much in flight it was not uncommon to see 5 gallon buckets in the cabin to catch the worst leaks. The saying went “if it ain’t leaking, don’t fly it, it’s out of fluid.”

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15 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Boeing and Sikorski are testing this one.  The SB-1 Defiant.  Dual rotor, and a prop on the back, said to do 250 knots, about 100 more than any other.  I rather like this approach.  No idea if it will autogyro to a landing, though.

Sikorsky–Boeing SB-1 Defiant (cropped).jpg

Why am I suddenly imagining what it would look like if you put a running Skil Saw and 2 Sawzalls into a six foot diameter kiddy pool....then fill it up with a 300 eggs?......

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15 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Boeing and Sikorski are testing this one.  The SB-1 Defiant.  Dual rotor, and a prop on the back, said to do 250 knots, about 100 more than any other.  I rather like this approach.  No idea if it will autogyro to a landing, though.

Sikorsky–Boeing SB-1 Defiant (cropped).jpg

I don't know much about the project, but that is smoking fast for a helicopter. The limiting factor for airspeed has always been the advancing blade tip going trans sonic or super sonic. My guess is they're slowing the rotation of the discs to prevent this while being "pushed". It does some decidedly weird stuff like a nose down hover where the prop (tail rotor?) must be pulling backwards, and the discs being in a level attitude going warp speed.

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2 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:

And the venerable DC3.

You ain't flown, till you've seen a DC3 primed with a 5 Gal Can of AvGas, and toss a 3' flame on start, back in the day at Martha's Vineyard Airport. And the Ground Crew tells you that that aircraft will become the 1700 flight out of Boston, when it gets to Boston... on which your Fiance will be flying.

 

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10 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

You ain't flown, till you've seen a DC3 primed with a 5 Gal Can of AvGas, and toss a 3' flame on start, back in the day at Martha's Vineyard Airport. And the Ground Crew tells you that that aircraft will become the 1700 flight out of Boston, when it gets to Boston... on which your Fiance will be flying.

Those things have been flying for more than 85 years - I'd say that was reliable.

When was the last time you rode in one of these?

1935 Bus | Garvins Garage - Picture Cars for Rent | TV & Film, Music  Videos, Photo Shoots & Cinema

Same age.

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20 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

They have the advantage of being able to auto-rotate with a dead engine - makes crashing one a little more survivable than a fixed wing.

Re: that ship landing - IIRC the RCN has a winch rig that lets them pick up a hook and cable dropped from the chopper and winch them down onto the deck.

Sort of a bastard child of a carrier arrestor hook.

 Except in a low hover. "Engine Out" light gets relabeled "You're Fucked" 

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43 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

You ain't flown, till you've seen a DC3 primed with a 5 Gal Can of AvGas, and toss a 3' flame on start, back in the day at Martha's Vineyard Airport. And the Ground Crew tells you that that aircraft will become the 1700 flight out of Boston, when it gets to Boston... on which your Fiance will be flying.

 

Done that.  1986

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

 Except in a low hover. "Engine Out" light gets relabeled "You're Fucked" 

All things then not being equal. 

Heres a good view of some of the action, what's not too evident is the lead and lag with each rotation, you can barely see it. What could possibly go wrong?

 

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51 minutes ago, chum said:

All things then not being equal. 

Heres a good view of some of the action, what's not too evident is the lead and lag with each rotation, you can barely see it. What could possibly go wrong?

 

I never trusted the Jesus Nut either...........

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4 hours ago, chum said:

I don't know much about the project, but that is smoking fast for a helicopter. The limiting factor for airspeed has always been the advancing blade tip going trans sonic or super sonic. My guess is they're slowing the rotation of the discs to prevent this while being "pushed". It does some decidedly weird stuff like a nose down hover where the prop (tail rotor?) must be pulling backwards, and the discs being in a level attitude going warp speed.

Without doubt there's a metric shitload of software running this thing.  I wonder if it just has a single stick and speed controller, and the automated systems take care of all the rest.  It's an interesting and new concept. 

I might get a civilian version for my next gigayacht.  Or perhaps two.  It would be just perfect to bring guests in from my 777 conversion at that big airport.  The short blades would enable them to fit nicely on the helidecks.

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23 hours ago, Point Break said:

I have flown (if thats what you call it) in lots of helicopters with many recon hours over fires, being transported in and out of LZ's at fires and some lesser number of rescues.........lots..............hate them.

Ditto. Used to fly in them over the pack looking for leads or deploying gear. I always, always volunteered to surrender my seat if possible.

Been to the memorial service after a crash. Seen vids of a chopper self-disassemble after hooking a skid on a ship. Had one of my best friends almost die in a crash in Antarctica.

You can keep helicopters. I never plan on getting in another one as long as I live.

FKT

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Ditto. Used to fly in them over the pack looking for leads or deploying gear. I always, always volunteered to surrender my seat if possible.

Been to the memorial service after a crash. Seen vids of a chopper self-disassemble after hooking a skid on a ship. Had one of my best friends almost die in a crash in Antarctica.

You can keep helicopters. I never plan on getting in another one as long as I live.

FKT

Sounds similar experience. We had a USMC SAR ship go down with our medics aboard (before we started our own air program) and nobody died but they had to climb out the high side with the ship on its side after an autorotate down (hint - even in an autorotate down if the topography is all steep…..the ship isn’t gonna set down upright). On top of my flight time in crew transport, I did a ton of morning recon flights over the fire when on the command staff. Now in addition to just flying in the thing…..put in updrafts and downdrafts that come with flying low over an active fire perimeter. I did it because it was part of the job….comes with with the territory but I’m retired. No…….never again. 

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But here is a different view. My son….who is on my old job now….started as a USFS hotshot and transitioned to a helitac/heli- rapel crew. He frigging loved every second of it. I think I’ve got some links to his crew video from one of the fire seasons….I’ll see if I can find one.  

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11 hours ago, chum said:

I don't know much about the project, but that is smoking fast for a helicopter. The limiting factor for airspeed has always been the advancing blade tip going trans sonic or super sonic. My guess is they're slowing the rotation of the discs to prevent this while being "pushed". It does some decidedly weird stuff like a nose down hover where the prop (tail rotor?) must be pulling backwards, and the discs being in a level attitude going warp speed.

Blade tip speed being the limiting factor?

No.

How about the fact that at 200 mph, the blade advancing in relation to aircraft direction is going 400 mph faster than the blade retreating?

Apparent wind, it's a aircraft thing too.

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8 hours ago, chum said:

All things then not being equal. 

Heres a good view of some of the action, what's not too evident is the lead and lag with each rotation, you can barely see it. What could possibly go wrong?

 

That's a good vid. It shows the retreating blade having more AOA than the advancing blade. Slower blade needs to generate more lift to prevent roll.

That's the major factor that limits speed.

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1 hour ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Blade tip speed being the limiting factor?

No.

How about the fact that at 200 mph, the blade advancing in relation to aircraft direction is going 400 mph faster than the blade retreating?

Apparent wind, it's a aircraft thing too.

  • Retreating blade stall. As forward speed of the helicopter increases, the airflow over the retreating blade becomes relatively slower, while the airflow over the advancing blade is relatively faster, creating more lift. If not counteracted by flapping,[20] this would cause dissymmetry of lift and eventually retreating blade stall,[2][3][21][22][1] and blade stability suffers as the blade reaches its limits for flapping.[12][23]
  • Transonic drag near the rotor blade tip. The faster-moving advancing blade tip may begin to approach the speed of sound, where transonic drag begins to rise steeply, and severe buffeting and vibration effects can occur. This effect prevents any further increase in speed, even if the helicopter has surplus power remaining, and even if it features a highly streamlined fuselage. A similar effect prevents propeller-driven aircraft from achieving supersonic speeds, although they can achieve higher speeds than a helicopter, since the propeller blade isn't advancing in the direction of travel.[2][3][1][24][25][26]

These (and other)[27][28] problems limit the practical speed of a conventional helicopter

 

 

I should have have said it was one of the limiting factors. A coaxial head would probably mitigate retreating blade stall too, maybe that’s part of the design.

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7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Seen vids of a chopper self-disassemble after hooking a skid on a ship.

I saw one go down after hooking a skid -- pretty spectacular.  I was in the local Volunteer Fire Dept and my buddy and I had responded to a "motorcycle vs truck" incident near Fort Ross, CA, at a location we called "High Point".  Hwy One is steep and winding here, on a cliff-side at least a couple hundred feet above the rocks and breaking waves.  We had loaded the cyclist (broken leg) into the Sheriff copter and everyone was going home.  My buddy and I volunteered to stay and control traffic until the copter took off.

The copter had landed on a small patch of dirt and weeds between the guard rail and the cliff edge, it couldn't have been more than 25 feet wide before it rapidly sloped down to the rocks below.  We held traffic and the copter started to take off.

The pilot usually would do a little dive before heading off, so we watched as the machine lifted a few feet and began to tilt towards the ocean.  Then it kept tilting, rolling onto it's side, skids toward the road and the rotors breaking up as they chopped the cliff-side of the landing zone.  Bits and pieces were flying everywhere.  It came to rest on the steep slope, just feet from the vertical cliff edge.  Smoke was pouring out of the engine compartment.

My buddy radioed in to Central Dispatch while I drove the firetruck up 100 yards to the crash site.  We got the pump running and I pulled the firehose down to the copter.  My buddy took another firehose and tied one end to a guardrail post and the other to the copter skids.  I wasn't going to squirt water unless I saw actual flames, since I didn't want to turn the dirt into slippery mud and have the copter slide any further downhill.  There was a lot of smoke, but still no flame.

As the emergency crews returned to the scene, I stood guard with the firehose, a local park ranger tied some climbing rope from the guard rail to the copter, and the others formed a human chain and opened the cabin door (which was now on top.)  The cyclist was still strapped into the Stokes stretcher, staring out a window to the pounding waves and rocks.  The pilot was OK, and the medic had broken his wrist.  We lifted everyone out and carried them up to the highway.  The smoke was clearing, apparently it was from oil leaking onto the exhaust manifold and fortunately it never caught.

Now, a larger medical copter landed a few hundred yards down the road, in a wider spot.  The cyclist was pleading with us to not put him in the new copter, begging for an ambulance ride instead.  But he was going well into shock by this point, and an ambulance ride would have taken an hour and a half to the nearest hospital, so we crossed our fingers, loaded them in, and the copter took off for the hospital with two victims.

Turns out that at the first landing zone there was an old fencepost stump hidden in the weeds, and the Sheriff copter had hooked that as they were drifting sideways in the wind during takeoff.  But somebody made that levered-out post disappear before the FAA inspectors showed up, and I believe the accident was chalked up to equipment failure. 

But damn, that was close.  A few feet further and the copter and crew would have slid off that cliff onto the rocks below.  That whole stretch of highway is littered with wrecked cars, some deliberately dumped, and some deadly accidents.

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53 minutes ago, valis said:

But damn, that was close.  A few feet further and the copter and crew would have slid off that cliff onto the rocks below.  That whole stretch of highway is littered with wrecked cars, some deliberately dumped, and some deadly accidents.

Have I said how much I dislike riding in helicopters?

I wasn't on the ship when the bird hooked a skid but from the vid I saw it was spectacular.

We always had 2 choppers, one to deploy and the 2nd to come rescue us if the first one went tits-up out over the ice. Didn't shut down either.

Helicopter underwater escape training was a barrel of fun and as a person who spent all my teenage years into my mid 20's free diving and spearfishing I'm totally comfortable underwater. I still didn't like my chances of ever getting out for real.

Happy to let anyone who wants a helicopter ride take my place, any time, any place.

FKT

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2 hours ago, chum said:
  • Retreating blade stall. As forward speed of the helicopter increases, the airflow over the retreating blade becomes relatively slower, while the airflow over the advancing blade is relatively faster, creating more lift. If not counteracted by flapping,[20] this would cause dissymmetry of lift and eventually retreating blade stall,[2][3][21][22][1] and blade stability suffers as the blade reaches its limits for flapping.[12][23]
  • Transonic drag near the rotor blade tip. The faster-moving advancing blade tip may begin to approach the speed of sound, where transonic drag begins to rise steeply, and severe buffeting and vibration effects can occur. This effect prevents any further increase in speed, even if the helicopter has surplus power remaining, and even if it features a highly streamlined fuselage. A similar effect prevents propeller-driven aircraft from achieving supersonic speeds, although they can achieve higher speeds than a helicopter, since the propeller blade isn't advancing in the direction of travel.[2][3][1][24][25][26]

These (and other)[27][28] problems limit the practical speed of a conventional helicopter

 

 

I should have have said it was one of the limiting factors. A coaxial head would probably mitigate retreating blade stall too, maybe that’s part of the design.

Yes. Co axial head is the way forward for high speed flight.

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18 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:

And the venerable DC3.

When I was about 12 I was very excited to notice oil streaming out of the engine and back along the wing of the DC-3 I was flying in. I got the stewardess and pointed it out and she blandly replied "it always does that, we buy a lot of oil" :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Have I said how much I dislike riding in helicopters?

I wasn't on the ship when the bird hooked a skid but from the vid I saw it was spectacular.

We always had 2 choppers, one to deploy and the 2nd to come rescue us if the first one went tits-up out over the ice. Didn't shut down either.

Helicopter underwater escape training was a barrel of fun and as a person who spent all my teenage years into my mid 20's free diving and spearfishing I'm totally comfortable underwater. I still didn't like my chances of ever getting out for real.

Happy to let anyone who wants a helicopter ride take my place, any time, any place.

FKT

My only helo time is in an old Bell 47, the venerable "MASH" helicopter. It has enough slop in the ancient controls that if you held the cyclic still, the helicopter jumped all over the place and of course it would instantly crash if you let go of it :o I learned to keep a loose grip on it and let it rattle around. The owner was a nut and did shit like have me hover over the parking space, warn me to use my feet and not let the copter rotate, and shut the mags off. The old wood rotor blades had enough momentum to let me set down softly, but if you aren't quick with your feet all the anti-torque you're holding to hover will corkscrew you into the ground if you keep it in.

I didn't fly it, but I did ride around in a JetRanger once and it was like a Rolls Royce compared to the old Bell.

Lesson in ditching - Son, you are used to airplanes. When they land in the water, they stop and you are done crashing. Just climb out before it sinks. This helicopter is no where near done crashing just because it hit the water.

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my dad had is pilots lic, and flew for the Del state police working VASCAR from a cesna, and they paid him to get his helicopter certs,  which he did,  and ended up flying the  state police chopper with also doubled as a poor mans medivac back in the 80's.  he flew for 3 years and  begged to be put back on a desk or back in a plane.

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7 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:
18 hours ago, chum said:

I don't know much about the project, but that is smoking fast for a helicopter. The limiting factor for airspeed has always been the advancing blade tip going trans sonic or super sonic. My guess is they're slowing the rotation of the discs to prevent this while being "pushed". It does some decidedly weird stuff like a nose down hover where the prop (tail rotor?) must be pulling backwards, and the discs being in a level attitude going warp speed.

Blade tip speed being the limiting factor?

No.

How about the fact that at 200 mph, the blade advancing in relation to aircraft direction is going 400 mph faster than the blade retreating?

Apparent wind, it's a aircraft thing too.

Maybe context, I think you're saying the same thing... the advancing blade tip is necessarily going 2x the speed of the retreating blade tip.

- DSK

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Have I said how much I dislike riding in helicopters?

I wasn't on the ship when the bird hooked a skid but from the vid I saw it was spectacular.

We always had 2 choppers, one to deploy and the 2nd to come rescue us if the first one went tits-up out over the ice. Didn't shut down either.

Helicopter underwater escape training was a barrel of fun and as a person who spent all my teenage years into my mid 20's free diving and spearfishing I'm totally comfortable underwater. I still didn't like my chances of ever getting out for real.

Happy to let anyone who wants a helicopter ride take my place, any time, any place.

FKT

We were on a trip to Hawaii (special event, the only time I have been there and only time I intend to ever go) with another couple, old friends... somebody in the group mentioned a helicopter trip and my friend and I both said "no thanks" at the same time, with pretty much the same intonation... when explanation was called for, I said, "I've ridden in a helicopter, thanks" and my friend said "I've ridden in a bunch of 'em.... never landed in one, though"

Military experience... there are those that are eager for more, and there are those that have had their fill.

- DSK

 

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14 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Maybe context, I think you're saying the same thing... the advancing blade tip is necessarily going 2x the speed of the retreating blade tip.

- DSK

He was referring to dissymmetry of lift, the transonic problem has to do with vibration and center of pressure airfoil stuff. My first thought when it comes to pushing a heli is the advancing blade problem. The whole disc becomes an airfoil with airspeed, so overcoming the retreating blade stall issue seems secondary to the advancing blade trouble.

I was just a lowly wrench, this is all wild speculation on my part.

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

excited to notice oil streaming out of the engine and back along the wing of the DC-3

Still got the spots of engine oil on my nice white jumpsuit.

Note to self; wear the old POS suit for DC3 jumps.

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59 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

 there are those that are eager for more, and there are those that have had their fill.

- DSK

 

I used to volunteer to crew AC for guys who were scheduled to fly but couldn’t. After I got out I felt as if someone had slammed the brakes on my life. I made a career of aviation afterwards but never did anything like the stuff we did then, I missed it. 

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1 hour ago, chum said:
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 there are those that are eager for more, and there are those that have had their fill.

 

 

I used to volunteer to crew AC for guys who were scheduled to fly but couldn’t. After I got out I felt as if someone had slammed the brakes on my life. I made a career of aviation afterwards but never did anything like the stuff we did then, I missed it. 

I apologize if my comments seem condescending or dismissive, they were truly NOT meant that way. There's nothing like it and I'm not good at explaining this kind of thing. Being in the military can be a wonderful experience for young people, and it can be very good career for the few.

A lot of public discussion minimizes or even trivializes the infantryman's experience of looking a fellow human being in the face and killing them. I'm not much a religious or prayerful person but I am very thankful to NOT have that particular experience. OTOH there were a few times when I was pretty sure I (and a fair number of other people) were going to die in the near future. That is also an experience that leaves deep marks, although not as profound nor as difficult.

I miss the camaradery and the sense of shared commitment. I miss having a huge team of back-up. I miss nights at sea although I've had more pleasant ones, sailing. I don't miss the adrenaline, which seems a common element for a lot of former military folk. Nor do I miss the lack of sleep or the forced company of people I detested (many of whom were theoretically entitled to give me orders) or the starchy diet + lack of fresh food, or a long list other absurd unpleasantries.

The US Navy has a long list of proud accomplishments, the one I like to cite is the rescues and humanitarian aid.

It was worth it.

Helicopters: as a shipboard engineer, one of my main jobs was always firefighting/damage control. From pretty early on, I was on a helo landing fire party which is kind of a special sub-group of firefighting teams. It's a PITA and thus handed off to newbies and the unpopular. One of the jobs is to handle the "grounding brush" which is actually a long flexy brass strip on about 5' of fiberglass, with a thick braided cable connected to the steel of the ship. Helos generate a powerful static charge and this needs to be funneled safely away from people/fuel/ammo when landing on a ship or even unloading supplies at low hover.

It takes a brave person to handle the grounding brush twice!

- DSK

(former BT1-SW USN)

 

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No offense taken. 

All eyes were on our hook at an LZ, that charge was a mother. At night in the desert under certain conditions the whole disc would glow from the static.Quite a sight.

 

chinook.jpg.071a29c34c4cf031159011ea401b4a0f.jpg

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Almost 65 years on this g-danm planet.....but I literally still learn something new.....every f'ng day.

 

Thanx, Gentlemen......B)

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7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Have I said how much I dislike riding in helicopters?

I've had one ride in a helicopter -- in an old bubble canopy (Bell?) one when I was a kid.  Lots of fun.

Not long after that copter-crash incident, I did turn down a chance to sort of ride another helicopter.  My sons had been hiking along the beach and cliffs not too far from that "High Point" crash and they discovered a dead body washed ashore among the rocks. They came home and told me about it, and I called it in.  We all went back to the area (me in my fire dept turnouts) and we showed the emergency crews the body location. 

The copter lowered the EMT down to the beach with the long rope (no place to land) and we gently loaded the body into the bag (it had been in the water a long time and was starting to come apart), and the bag into the stretcher,  The copter hauled the stretcher up to the highway and an ambulance took it away.  The copter then hoisted the EMT back to the road.  They offered to hoist me back up the cliff, and it would have been a fun ride on the end of that rope, but I decided to stay with my kids so we scrambled back up. 

The body?  Old guy with AIDS (he had a medical bracelet).  Suicide, jumped into the ocean many miles to the north.

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2 hours ago, chum said:

No offense taken. 

All eyes were on our hook at an LZ, that charge was a mother. At night in the desert under certain conditions the whole disc would glow from the static.Quite a sight.

 

chinook.jpg.071a29c34c4cf031159011ea401b4a0f.jpg

Now that..............is an awesome picture..............

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I apologize if my comments seem condescending or dismissive, they were truly NOT meant that way. There's nothing like it and I'm not good at explaining this kind of thing. Being in the military can be a wonderful experience for young people, and it can be very good career for the few.

A lot of public discussion minimizes or even trivializes the infantryman's experience of looking a fellow human being in the face and killing them. I'm not much a religious or prayerful person but I am very thankful to NOT have that particular experience. OTOH there were a few times when I was pretty sure I (and a fair number of other people) were going to die in the near future. That is also an experience that leaves deep marks, although not as profound nor as difficult.

I miss the camaradery and the sense of shared commitment. I miss having a huge team of back-up. I miss nights at sea although I've had more pleasant ones, sailing. I don't miss the adrenaline, which seems a common element for a lot of former military folk. Nor do I miss the lack of sleep or the forced company of people I detested (many of whom were theoretically entitled to give me orders) or the starchy diet + lack of fresh food, or a long list other absurd unpleasantries.

The US Navy has a long list of proud accomplishments, the one I like to cite is the rescues and humanitarian aid.

It was worth it.

Helicopters: as a shipboard engineer, one of my main jobs was always firefighting/damage control. From pretty early on, I was on a helo landing fire party which is kind of a special sub-group of firefighting teams. It's a PITA and thus handed off to newbies and the unpopular. One of the jobs is to handle the "grounding brush" which is actually a long flexy brass strip on about 5' of fiberglass, with a thick braided cable connected to the steel of the ship. Helos generate a powerful static charge and this needs to be funneled safely away from people/fuel/ammo when landing on a ship or even unloading supplies at low hover.

It takes a brave person to handle the grounding brush twice!

- DSK

(former BT1-SW USN)

 

Exact same military experience here. I spent some training time jumping out of helo's into the water. The jump height was supposed to be 15 feet - give or take - I swear it was 50 looking out the door. When assigned to a destroyer with a helo deck I was not on the damage control party for that task but our radar directors were on the same deck so I watched way more than one landing. The whole operation was impressive as hell but that static charge stick..........no thanks. On the up side, the helo nets when deployed down in the landing position made a great sunbathing location..............

(former FTM2 - USN)

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14 hours ago, chum said:

I should have have said it was one of the limiting factors. A coaxial head would probably mitigate retreating blade stall too, maybe that’s part of the design.

I think that's the point of the counter rotating blades. They also allow the prop at the rear to provide thrust instead of being used to counter the tendency of the bird to rotate under conventional blades.

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The CH53E canted tail rotor actually contributes a significant amount of lift, in addition to anti torque thrust. It’s a beast.
 

CDC906E7-EB42-4170-9890-8095495261A2.thumb.jpeg.d6da58da490115beba150d9956394c5a.jpeg


 

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Have about 20 hours (few hours away from solo) in these contraptions (Robinson R22) from back in the day when I was adding ratings to my ticket..   Gave up, or should  say ran out of money and then got a job that moved me away from where I was learning and I never really pursued it from there.  I thought about picking it back up, but at my age and the cost, there is no ROI..

As for the autorotative descents, this is one of the main skills you're taught along with hoovering as this pretty much puts all the other skills you're taught to task.  Hoovering is a real balance act especially with a X-wind, you left leg is dong one thing, with your right leg is keeping the balance of the left leg, while your left arm is being used for one thing and your left hand something else, and the right arm/hand something total different.  At least I had some visual references to work with, couldn't imagine doing this on instruments. 

My instructor was an ex-army/Viet Nam guy - CWA.  I don't think his pulse ever got above 60 bpm even during my first hoover. 

 

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On 5/15/2021 at 4:06 PM, Rasputin22 said:

My buddy who survived two stints (and two crashes!) as a door gunner in Nam told me that helicopters do not actually fly and there is some sort of mass hallucination that makes them appear to do so.

Helicopters do not fly, the earth repells them...

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2 hours ago, warbird said:

Helicopters do not fly, the earth repells them they just beat the air into submission...

 

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This is a story about a man with hope and faith during a time of emergency.  It is applicable to both personal life and business success of entrepreneurs.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

There once was a man who lived in a two story house.  The house was near a river and unfortunately the river began to flood. 

As the river rose, warnings were given via radio, TV and shortwave. Large jeeps drove through the area to evacuate people.  As a jeep drove by the man's house, he was told:

"You are in danger.  Your life is at stake.  You must evacuate.  Get in the Jeep.  Let us help you evacuate."

"No," the man replied from his doorstep.  "I have faith.  I will be ok.  The flood won't get me.  God will take care of me."

The water continued to rise.

Soon the man was on the second floor.  A boat was going through the area and arrived at the man's house. Rescuers made every effort to convince the man to take action so that his life would be saved.

"You are in danger.  Your life is at stake.  You will drown in the flood."

"No worries," says the man.  "I have faith.  Everything is ok.  Even though the flood is rising, I will be fine.  God will take care of me."

The flood continued to rise.

The man went to the roof to avoid the rising water.  A helicopter pilot sees him on top of the roof and hovers above the man.  Using a megaphone, the pilot tries to convince the man to grab the rope ladder which was dangling above his head.

"You are in danger.  The flood is still rising.  You will drown if you do not grab the rope ladder.  Let us help you."

"No worries."  says the man.  "I will be fine.  Yes, the flood is higher but I have faith.  God will take care of me."

The flood rises.  The man drowns.

At the pearly gates, the man says to God:  "I had faith.  You let me die."

To which God replies: "I sent you a jeep, a boat and a helicopter.  What more could I have done for you?"

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