Jump to content

Large roach headsails / Tweeners / Masthead genoas


Recommended Posts

Many of us now have code zero's, in my case a fractional FR-0.  It's great for light air close reaching, and quite rangey as the breeze builds

In light air, upwind or reaching, we really struggle and an option i'm looking at is one of the many 'large roach'  masthead genoa options.

if you get your conditions, i'm sure it's worth any rating hit whatsoever, if it's the difference between sailing vs. parked up.  But--- you 'pay' for the rating all the time.  ORC deals with this.  But----

How is PHRF handling this in different regions ?   Is the "hit" experienced under the distance racing DHCP (only) or also for the all-purpose rating ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, 1sailor said:

How is PHRF handling this in different regions ?  

Randomly and with little common sense I'll wager. 

 

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

If it's going on a Farr 400, check with Farr and the builder to see if your sprit can handle the calculated loads. These kind of sails can be taxing on the structure/s.

Link to post
Share on other sites

ORC treats it pretty fairly, though I disagree with the fact that they get rated in your Windward/Leeward rating. Tacking a J0 in a short course is a pretty painful experience.

PHRF in our Region treated it as a -6 change on our distance rating and no change in Windward Leewards - because you don't use it in those conditions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For our boat, the code zero hit in ORC is fairly light and seems fair for reaching legs in moderate conditions. However, in our testing the ORC VPP overestimates the angles you can realistically carry a 75% code, at least above 8kts TWS.

For example, our ORC speed guide believes has the crossover from from jib to code zero in the high 50s-low 60s TWA, in 8-12kts, which is off by at least 10-20 degrees.  And ORC believes we can carry a full masthead code in 20kts TWS at 90 TWA (approx 42 apparent), which is unrealistic - we'd be on the J2 with outboard lead, or rounding up.

So we're definitely paying a penalty for this inaccuracy, reflected in the random course / AP rating, both in the single number, and especially in the moderate and high triple numbers.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

In PHRFNE if your code measures as a spinnaker there's not hit for it. not sure about these tweener sails, but since phrfne is a single number system, they *might* treat them as an oversized genoa and you'd carry the penalty always. I've asked the question though and will let you know if I hear anything.

In ORR/ez they're allowed and factored into the VPP but similar to ORC the hits occur in the wind ranges and angles where it would make a difference.

Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, ryley said:

In PHRFNE if your code measures as a spinnaker there's not hit for it. not sure about these tweener sails, but since phrfne is a single number system, they *might* treat them as an oversized genoa and you'd carry the penalty always. I've asked the question though and will let you know if I hear anything.

In ORR/ez they're allowed and factored into the VPP but similar to ORC the hits occur in the wind ranges and angles where it would make a difference.

From PHRF-NE:

Quote

 

PHRFNE only treats sails attached to the headstay as headsails.

 or sails designed to be staysails behind the headstay.

Sailmakers are making furling sails forward of headstay that we treat as asysmetrical sails even though they do not measure in what sail requirements designate as a spinnaker.   It would be good to see the sail plan put I'm pretty sure  we would just list as another spin.  Lots of the new boats I'm selling have what is called a crossover sail that is some between a headsail and spinnaker but because its not a real headsail we treat as a small spin.

 

so it looks like as long as the area is smaller than your largest spinnaker and you're not carrying more "spinnakers" than PHRF allows, you get no ding.

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, ryley said:

From PHRF-NE:

so it looks like as long as the area is smaller than your largest spinnaker and you're not carrying more "spinnakers" than PHRF allows, you get no ding.

Not quite; the mid-girth needs to be 75% to count as a spinnaker (unless PHRF-NE has a unique interpretation). Once you start getting a 55%-65% mid-girth "Tweener" code sail it's not measured as a spinnaker anymore in PHRF.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, climenuts said:

Not quite; the mid-girth needs to be 75% to count as a spinnaker (unless PHRF-NE has a unique interpretation). Once you start getting a 55%-65% mid-girth "Tweener" code sail it's not measured as a spinnaker anymore in PHRF.

PHRF-NE has a unique interpretation. I specifically asked about sails without a spinnaker's midgirth and the answer I quoted is the answer I got. Since they only treat head sails as sails on the headstay, what other choice do they have than to treat LRH as a spinnaker - especially since they only have the one number and not 3 like So Cal.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was under the impression that a sail that didn't measure in as a headsail or a kite (IE your LRH or tweener or whatever you want to call them) wasn't legal at all in PHRF.  Didn't think you could use the LRH while sailing under that rule system.

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, vtsail said:

I was under the impression that a sail that didn't measure in as a headsail or a kite (IE your LRH or tweener or whatever you want to call them) wasn't legal at all in PHRF.  Didn't think you could use the LRH while sailing under that rule system.

Depends on the area. I can only speak to what PHRF-NE is doing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

YRALIS has a section in the rule that specifically deals with these.  -6 for a tweener.  -3 if its no bigger than your biggest headsail. Only applies to the spinnaker distance rating, not the windward/leeward.

Sounds similar to jackolantern.  Not sure if we’re referencing the same rule.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

OK thanks for the replies everyone.   Dacron and Jackolantern gave numerical replies, much appreciated.   Maybe not quite enough yet to be considered 'consensus' but it's helpful

surprising to me that sailmakers all over the place, who sell these sails, don't know the answer.    Are there a lot of variables in the answer ? I doubt it.   % of mid girth, total area, overlap.  what else is there ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, sailman said:

Rylee,  it sounds like PHRFNE has pretty big loop holes.

FIFY

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Dacron said:

YRALIS has a section in the rule that specifically deals with these.  -6 for a tweener.  -3 if its no bigger than your biggest headsail. Only applies to the spinnaker distance rating, not the windward/leeward.

Sounds similar to jackolantern.  Not sure if we’re referencing the same rule.

Special Reaching Sails The measurements of all specialist reaching and downwind sails shall be declared. These are defined as any sail set forward of the headstay with an SMG/SF ratio of 90% or lower. Examples of sails in this group include Code Zeros, Large Roach Headsails (LRH), Free-Flying Headsails (FFH) and many cruising spinnakers. Adjustment is based on dimension and SMG/SF ratio and will be applied to the spinnaker distance racing handicap only.  Sail Type Adjustment Spinnakers - 75% SMG/SF ratio and higher, (but note that all sails with an SMG/SF ratio of 90% 
 or lower need to be documented on the certificate for their use to be permitted)  0 Free Flying Headsail (FFH) - a sail set flying free, forwards of the headstay, and of LP and overall area no larger than the largest headsail used to establish the handicap -3 Any sail set forwards of the headstay with an SMG/SF ratio of 75% or less, except FFH  -6 Specialized reaching sails may incorporate battens in the leech. If battens are used they must be declared and will be subject to an additional adjustment.  -3 When a boat carries only a single off-the-wind sail, whether that be a spinnaker, Code Zero, Free Flying Headsail, or Large Roach Headsail, the -6 adjustment for SMG/SF ratios of < 75% may not apply. Owners must declare this configuration to the handicapper and the Committee will consider requests on a case-by-case basis. These specialist reaching sails will be measured as asymmetric spinnakers for the purpose of defining the maximum dimensions and as a headsail when LP is required to be declared in the case of an FFH. Specialist reaching sails exceeding the standard unpenalized sizes will be adjusted by the Committee on a case by case basis.  Special Note - In cases where the 2020 YRALIS PHRF Certificate included a FFH that measured into the zero-adjustment bracket in that year (specifically, a Free Flying Headsail set flying free, forwards of the headstay, and of each dimension and overall area no larger than the largest headsail used to establish the handicap) the owner may elect to include that sail on their certificate for the 2021 and 2022 season. If they do so that sail will receive the same zero-adjustment for the 2021 and 2022 season. From the 2023 season onwards, this grandfathered relief will be eliminated. These grandfathered sails may not be transferred (sold or reassigned to a different boat via any means), nor replaced if damaged beyond repair. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, dacapo said:

Special Note - In cases where the 2020 YRALIS PHRF Certificate included a FFH that measured into the zero-adjustment bracket in that year (specifically, a Free Flying Headsail set flying free, forwards of the headstay, and of each dimension and overall area no larger than the largest headsail used to establish the handicap) the owner may elect to include that sail on their certificate for the 2021 and 2022 season. If they do so that sail will receive the same zero-adjustment for the 2021 and 2022 season. From the 2023 season onwards, this grandfathered relief will be eliminated. These grandfathered sails may not be transferred (sold or reassigned to a different boat via any means), nor replaced if damaged beyond repair. 

Clearly this is a "caution: coffee is hot" rule. Were people flying their genoas as ffh's from the ends of their sprits?

Also, just to clear up the paragraph from dacapo:

Special Reaching Sails The measurements of all specialist reaching and downwind sails shall be declared. These are defined as any sail set forward of the headstay with an SMG/SF ratio of 90% or lower. Examples of sails in this group include Code Zeros, Large Roach Headsails (LRH), Free-Flying Headsails (FFH) and many cruising spinnakers. Adjustment is based on dimension and SMG/SF ratio and will be applied to the spinnaker distance racing handicap only. 

Sail Type                                                                                                                                                                       Adjustment

Spinnakers - 75% SMG/SF ratio and higher, (but note that all sails with an SMG/SF ratio of 90%

 or lower need to be documented on the certificate for their use to be permitted)                                                          0

Free Flying Headsail (FFH) - a sail set flying free, forwards of the headstay, and of LP and overall
area no larger than the largest headsail used to establish the handicap                                                                          -3

Any sail set forwards of the headstay with an SMG/SF ratio of 75% or less, except FFH                                                -6

Specialized reaching sails may incorporate battens in the leech. If battens are used they must be
declared and will be subject to an additional adjustment.                                                                                                  -3

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/17/2021 at 9:32 PM, zenmasterfred said:

An old friend was remembering when we set the chute on a race and a number of roaches fell out of the spinnaker and I don't mean the insect variety.  Those were the days!

I have raised my main to have eggs fell onto deck too

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Benytoe said:

I have raised my main to have eggs fell onto deck too

The most spectacular incident of that nature that I remember was on the return leg of the old Saliva Bay Hangover race. The boat just ahead of us in the pursuit start had partied pretty hard the night before, and at some point they'd managed to drop their pot of leftover spaghetti and sauce into the saltchuck, to be lost forever to the briny depths.

The next morning it was a downwind start, and they only had about a minute or so on us, so we were right there at the start line when they hoisted the kite on final approach to the start. It turned out they hadn't dropped the spaghetti and sauce overboard at all. It made it about 2/3rds of the way up the mast before it tumbled out, flinging spaghetti and tomato sauce all over the deck. The pot bounced off the deck with a tremendous clang and a final explosion of leftover dinner before dropping into the water and fulfilling its previously determined fate.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/17/2021 at 4:30 PM, 1sailor said:

 

How is PHRF handling this in different regions ?   Is the "hit" experienced under the distance racing DHCP (only) or also for the all-purpose rating ?

Be assured  that any PHRF committee worth it's salt will penalize you twice any possible gain you may get from any change you want to make.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/18/2021 at 1:04 PM, vtsail said:

I was under the impression that a sail that didn't measure in as a headsail or a kite (IE your LRH or tweener or whatever you want to call them) wasn't legal at all in PHRF.  Didn't think you could use the LRH while sailing under that rule system.

After discussion at the March 2018 meeting ECSA specifically outlawed large roach head sails. At the April 2021 meeting the committee agreed to revisit large roach head sails and discuss penalty options.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/18/2021 at 8:59 PM, 1sailor said:

OK thanks for the replies everyone.   Dacron and Jackolantern gave numerical replies, much appreciated.   Maybe not quite enough yet to be considered 'consensus' but it's helpful

surprising to me that sailmakers all over the place, who sell these sails, don't know the answer.    Are there a lot of variables in the answer ? I doubt it.   % of mid girth, total area, overlap.  what else is there ?

I have a tweener (Code 65) which we use for the double-handed race and some other events conditions permitting.  The hit is LMPHRF is -3 for the DHCP only.  No hit for the base rating.  There is also an ORC hit but since we race one-design in both Mac races this year, I am having my cert amended to exclude the tweener.

Got my tweener from Bluffton Bay Sails.  Its a North with Helix luff system.  Jimmy deals Quantum now.  I am sure that is a great product.

Hroth

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...