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World Sailing saved from liquidation...what a surprise


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The surprise (not) being they almost went under. You have to hand it to Mr Graham, finally some honesty. 

Maybe some of it will rub off on the MNA's....

:D:D:D:D Oh dear. that was a funny. This isn't though. There is some hard truths in there that is frankly refreshing to hear them 'fess up to. 

 

World Sailing chief executive David Graham has admitted the embattled Federation would have gone into liquidation without financial assistance provided by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) following the coronavirus-enforced postponement of the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games.

Sailing's worldwide governing body is thought to have received a loan of around $3.1 million (£2.2 million/€2.6 million) as part of the IOC's support package, designed to offset the financial impact of the decision to delay Tokyo 2020 by a year on Federations and other sports bodies.

Without that, Graham said, "we would have gone into liquidation."

The admission from Graham during his damning report to the World Sailing Council today marks the first time a senior official at the body has openly revealed the perilous state of its finances.

Graham, appointed chief executive last May, said World Sailing was "unhealthily subordinate" to the IOC as it is "heavily reliant" on the income from the Olympic Games that it receives at the end of each four-year cycle.

He also said the Federation was "in negative equity", but added he was hopeful financial stability could be achieved by the 2024 Olympics in Paris.

Graham also claimed World Sailing had "stripped right back" and had enjoyed a "good first quarter" of 2021.

World Sailing's 2019 accounts showed a deficit for the year of just over £2.5 million ($3.5 million/€2.9 million), and the organisation is expecting to report another loss for the 2020 financial year.

Graham warned sailing's financial problems had been compounded by a "lack of commercial strategy" and said the body had not "reaped the rewards" of prioritising the Olympics "at the expense of other areas of our sport."

"The majority of the Federation’s resources are spent on admin, head count, office space, and only a fraction on the promotion and development of the sport," he said.

Graham began his report by warning there were "many areas" where World Sailing was in "disorder".

He hit out at the "increased divisive politics" within World Sailing, claiming he has "been amazed at the low levels some people will go to."

"There are no penalties for causing disruption, and all of these things bring our sport into disrepute," he added.

Graham also warned internal disputes had dramatically increased World Sailing's legal costs.

While he did not directly reference the disputes, it is likely to include those involving former President Kim Andersen in the build-up to last year's election, where he was unseated by China's Quanhai Li.

"It is clear that we need reform," Graham said, before going on to reveal a series of initiatives he hopes will repair the troubled Federation.

Graham revealed World Sailing was looking to open an office in China, where Li is based, after revealing the President had identified possible opportunities to increase revenue.

Negotiating an exit from the lease on World Sailing’s London offices was cited as a top priority for Li and his team after the Chinese official was elected President in November.

World Sailing's 2019 accounts showed that it had future payments under "non-cancellable" operating leases in respect of land and buildings which amounted to £2.67 million ($3.8 million/€3.1 million) at the end of last December.

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1107783/world-sailing-liquidation-without-ioc

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What the fuck is it about sailing that does this?

Oh wait ... vested interests.  I forgot about the cunts who just want the money.

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Is the World Sailing budget publicly available?

Where do they get their revenue, who gives them money, what are their sources of income?

And what, exactly, do they provide, to whom?

That whole organization is only vaguely known to me, and so I would guess also to many others.

I'm guessing that some people look at the bank accounts and try to leech money out of it for semi personal purposes, sort of  like embezzlement?

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10 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

 

"The majority of the Federation’s resources are spent on admin, head count, office space, and only a fraction on the promotion and development of the sport," he said.

How efficient.

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12 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

 

He hit out at the "increased divisive politics" within World Sailing, claiming he has "been amazed at the low levels some people will go to."

 

If anyone knows the lowest moral levels of divisive politics it’s that cunt. 

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Wow. WS seems to actually mean "Whatta Scam!!"

WS is literally bankrupt. Time for a new body, as this body has been murdered.

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The same goes for the Member National Authority's, who are the individual nation governing bodies for sailing that are just as guilty as World Sailing.       

It speaks volumes when non-Olympic sailors couldn't give a fuck whether they survive or not. The Olympics has singlehandedly vacuumed out our entire international and national structure until it became a money whore dependant upon the IOC.

I'm indifferent to their fate, because they long ago chose to be indifferent to ours.

Good riddance.

  

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2 hours ago, BlondeWithFreeBoat said:

How efficient.

Australian Sailing are exactly the same. 

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Sounds like they got sucked into the money pit of IOC, with the Olys as part of the funding stream and therefore the budgeted spend. Stop the Olys, not surprising the spend is out of whack. If they had gone off as usual the org would be fine. It's a volunteer/sports association, do you think it's well capitalized?  Now, you could make a reasonable pitch that Oly $s and responsibilities should be in a segregated function and budget, but I would bet that the Oly money cross-funded some WS expenses used for non-Oly services.

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The common theme is always...get sailing out of the Olympics.    World Sailing is tied to them financially so don’t expect them to do anything constructive.

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Sounds like they got sucked into the money pit of IOC, with the Olys as part of the funding stream and therefore the budgeted spend. Stop the Olys, not surprising the spend is out of whack. If they had gone off as usual the org would be fine. It's a volunteer/sports association, do you think it's well capitalized?  Now, you could make a reasonable pitch that Oly $s and responsibilities should be in a segregated function and budget, but I would bet that the Oly money cross-funded some WS expenses used for non-Oly services.

IIRC, the spend on getting the teams to the Olympics chews up nearly all of the funds received from IOC.

I’d actually prefer WS to become a pissant two man and a dog operation, as long as those two men actually cared about sailing outside the olympics. 

 

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Whatever lunatic decided to move the HQ from a low-rent old building in Southampton into the heart of expensive London needs his head read.

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14 minutes ago, sailman said:

The common theme is always...get sailing out of the Olympics.  

Dont agree with that suggestion.

1,   While it is a small group, the best athletes in our sport like going to the Olympics. It is not for us to cut their sport

2,    If WS was well run, Olympic sailing should subsidize the rest of promoting sailing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Whatever lunatic decided to move the HQ from a low-rent old building in Southampton into the heart of expensive London needs his head read.

 

13 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Here was the announcement of the move https://www.sailing.org/news/42389.php#.YKRKy6EpCUk

Andy Hunt looks to have earned more than £250,000 ($310,000/€270,000) in his last year as World Sailing chief executive.

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

The same goes for the Member National Authority's, who are the individual nation governing bodies for sailing that are just as guilty as World Sailing.       

It speaks volumes when non-Olympic sailors couldn't give a fuck whether they survive or not. The Olympics has singlehandedly vacuumed out our entire international and national structure until it became a money whore dependant upon the IOC.

I'm indifferent to their fate, because they long ago chose to be indifferent to ours.

Good riddance.

  

Well said shag

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31 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Dont agree with that suggestion.

1,   While it is a small group, the best athletes in our sport like going to the Olympics. It is not for us to cut their sport

2,    If WS was well run, Olympic sailing should subsidize the rest of promoting sailing

 

 

And I don't agree with that suggestion. 

The best athletes in our sport can sail in national and international championships. That's where the top sportsman in a chosen sport usually compete. 

I would love my daughter to get an Olympic gold medal in motorsports. But the aresholes built a strong, healthy national and international circuit instead that is roaring along without any Olympic bullshit. Just like sailing used to. 

I can't remember where it says a sport can't survive without the Olympics, but this seems to be the only defence from those who are supportive.  A lack of opportunity IMHO is not a credible justification. 

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With suggestions to cancel the postponed Japan games, just wait for that to hit the IOC's bottomline, Japan would probably sue over the costs they have incurred. It'll be a total ClusterF.

 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Dont agree with that suggestion.

1,   While it is a small group, the best athletes in our sport like going to the Olympics. It is not for us to cut their sport

2,    If WS was well run, Olympic sailing should subsidize the rest of promoting sailing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The World, National, etc Championships is each respective class are more likely to present better competition than the Olympics.  The Gold and Bacardi Cup are examples.

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2 minutes ago, sailman said:

The World, National, etc Championships is each respective class are more likely to present better competition than the Olympics.  The Gold and Bacardi Cup are examples.

So , if you are a Star sailor , you might take exception to a group of Non-Star sailors saying that sailing should get out of the Bacardi Cup.

Star sailors enjoy the Bacardi....and the Star Class campaigned very hard to remain in the Olympics. Good for them, they like Olympic competition. Why do the rest of us get to tell them that sailing should not be in the Olympics.

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41 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

And I don't agree with that suggestion. 

The best athletes in our sport can sail in national and international championships. That's where the top sportsman in a chosen sport usually compete. 

I would love my daughter to get an Olympic gold medal in motorsports. But the aresholes built a strong, healthy national and international circuit instead that is roaring along without any Olympic bullshit. Just like sailing used to. 

I can't remember where it says a sport can't survive without the Olympics, but this seems to be the only defence from those who are supportive.  A lack of opportunity IMHO is not a credible justification. 

Im supportive of sailing in the Olympics.

I am sure that sailing can survive without the Olympics and Im sure that sailing can survive with the Olympics. 

Sailing in the Olympics does not harm the sport in any way and probably helps. I dont fully understand those who want sailing out of the Olympics,,,,,,,is it because they just dont like the Olympics at all or is it because they dont think young people should waste their time striving for an Olympics and should go and get proper jobs? 

 

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

Thank you for that.

They seem to spend a lot of time explaining the standards by which the accountancy is done & the many exceptions to that accountancy but it does not say where they get their revenue or what the sources of revenue are.

And what, exactly, do they provide to whom at what cost. From what I can see they provide mostly to themselves - the organization exists but serves no real purpose other than to perpetuate themselves???

 

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21 minutes ago, IPLore said:

So , if you are a Star sailor , you might take exception to a group of Non-Star sailors saying that sailing should get out of the Bacardi Cup.

Star sailors enjoy the Bacardi....and the Star Class campaigned very hard to remain in the Olympics. Good for them, they like Olympic competition. Why do the rest of us get to tell them that sailing should not be in the Olympics.

Because all World Sailing and NAs are concerned with is Olympic sailing to the detriment of the vast majority of the rest of the sailing community

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1 minute ago, sailman said:

Because all World Sailing and NAs are concerned with is Olympic sailing to the detriment of the vast majority of the rest of the sailing community

Dossentte thet depende on what you definitione of 'dettriment' is?

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25 minutes ago, Parma said:

Thank you for that.

They seem to spend a lot of time explaining the standards by which the accountancy is done & the many exceptions to that accountancy but it does not say where they get their revenue or what the sources of revenue are.

And what, exactly, do they provide to whom at what cost. From what I can see they provide mostly to themselves - the organization exists but serves no real purpose other than to perpetuate themselves???

 

Never mind, I found it....in another thread.

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

So , if you are a Star sailor , you might take exception to a group of Non-Star sailors saying that sailing should get out of the Bacardi Cup.

Star sailors enjoy the Bacardi....and the Star Class campaigned very hard to remain in the Olympics. Good for them, they like Olympic competition. Why do the rest of us get to tell them that sailing should not be in the Olympics.

To use your analogy, when the entire sailing representative body does nothing else but focus on the Star class that is bad for the sport. Not for Star sailors, for the sport. 

I didn't join 'World Olympic Sailing', I joined World Sailing, there is a difference. That's not the Star sailors fault, that's our representatives fault. 

And any attempts to right these wrongs is met with deplorable and underhanded tactics reminiscent of bullies in a schoolyard. There is no innocence left in this whole sordid mess. I wouldn't want my kids anywhere near such a corrupt and morally deficient sport, but hey, for some that gold medal shines so bright it excuses the means, no matter how immoral the process was to get you there.  

 

 

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50 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

To use your analogy, when the entire sailing representative body does nothing else but focus on the Star class that is bad for the sport. Not for Star sailors, for the sport. 

I didn't join 'World Olympic Sailing', I joined World Sailing, there is a difference. That's not the Star sailors fault, that's our representatives fault. 

And any attempts to right these wrongs is met with deplorable and underhanded tactics reminiscent of bullies in a schoolyard. There is no innocence left in this whole sordid mess. I wouldn't want my kids anywhere near such a corrupt and morally deficient sport, but hey, for some that gold medal shines so bright it excuses the means, no matter how immoral the process was to get you there.  

 

 

Im sorry you and your kids had such a bad experience sailing. It has been wonderful for my kids and me. No bad effects from the Olympics . I cant speak  to the deplorable state of sailing in Australia. It looked like people were having fun when I visited and y'all have produced some wonderful sailors. 

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

Im sorry you and your kids had such a bad experience sailing. It has been wonderful for my kids and me. No bad effects from the Olympics . I cant speak  to the deplorable state of sailing in Australia. It looked like people were having fun when I visited and y'all have produced some wonderful sailors. 

And I am genuinely chuffed for you your experience has been different IPLore. 

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8 hours ago, IPLore said:

Dont agree with that suggestion.

1,   While it is a small group, the best athletes in our sport like going to the Olympics. It is not for us to cut their sport

2,    If WS was well run, Olympic sailing should subsidize the rest of promoting sailing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

without Olymics all the power would be back at class organizations... not so bad...

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7 hours ago, IPLore said:

Im sorry you and your kids had such a bad experience sailing. It has been wonderful for my kids and me. No bad effects from the Olympics . I cant speak  to the deplorable state of sailing in Australia. It looked like people were having fun when I visited and y'all have produced some wonderful sailors. 

"Deplorable state of sailing" is perhaps too harsh. Yes, it is not what it used to be when all the old farts who inhabit these threads first started out. But that is not something specific to sailing. Many sports have suffered the same fate.

But there are a couple of things that many feel have done more to damage sailing than helped it.

Much/ most/ all of this can be associated with a broadly defined concept of "Olympic pathways" that seems to predominate the thought process of National bodies.

If one grew up with sailing that was 'club focused', and think that way (as I do), the sense of betrayal and abandonment is all the greater.

Start with learn to sail courses. Traditionally these were run at club level by putting a number of beginners in a suitably docile boat with a more experienced sailor. Forward thinking clubs usually used their intermediate juniors as their in boat trainers (obviously looked over by someone in a motor boat). That provided three benefits in one. It spread the training load, gave the juniors a sense of having a duty to put back into the volunteer club and gave them a sense of confidence and achievement at teaching. And better still the glow it gave the parents of those juniors when a trainee adult went up to the parents and congratulated them on what a fantastic and competent child they'd raised was something to be seen.

But NO said the national body. That's not how we'll do it. [As I understand it] to get our Olympic support money from the Government we need a more structured system than that. So this is what's going to happen (if you want an accredited sailing school) -

  • All instructors and assistant instructors must be accredited by us. Taking into account the training they must receive from us, that will cost you heaps per instructor (so there goes your 'spread the load, train the kids' system)
  • You will use a system where you put kids who've never been in a boat before, kick them off from the beach and tell them to come around a buoy and come back. A great system for a professional instructor wanting to deal with a big class to make money, but hopeless for a club using the old system and indeed a hopeless way of teaching because -
  • It scares a lot of kids witless not to have the comfort of an on board instructor; so you've immediately filtered out a certain part of the possible sailing group
  • It doesn't allow for a club operating in a 4 knot tide or with ten layers of moored boats off their beach.
  • They then pushed for the adoption of the Optimist Dinghy as the boat to be used for this. Something that must have been designed around 1700 (purple font), can't take more than one person (so no sailing with a friend), something where you have to be taught to sail and bail at the same time and something where when you capsize they come up full of water (assuming the scared witless kid doesn't just swim back to the beach). Why? Because its an international class and so offers a better Olympic Pathway. This at a time when many clubs were moving into junior classes with self draining cockpits and that could be sailed one or two up. And the difference is that when these boats capsize - after the first time - the kids love it.

Secondly, this 'pathways' program seeks to drain the clubs of sailing talent to put them in high performance programs. Bottom line is, the top guy goes through for special training, the rest end up as so much cannon fodder; dispirited, no longer tied to their clubs and usually lost to sailing.

Thirdly, there's a sense the bureaucracy all this has created (where the administration was previously slim and somewhat volunteer) now seemingly have a number of KPI's that impact on clubs. The recent requirement that everyone racing in every race must be a member of a club (and thereby affiliated with the National body) was viewed by many as effectively a way of artificially boosting 'membership' to meet KPI's. Much of the mucking about with learn to sail courses one suspects was also KPI driven.

Fourthly, this administration heavy body seems to drain money from clubs without offering anything meaningful back in return.

Some have additional beefs which go to specific incidents, but mine really goes to the way they have pulled clubs apart over the last 25 years. Sure they held 'public meetings' about all this, but completely ignored the many voices like mine that objected to what seemed to be their irrational plans. 

So it is very possible you've had a good experience. That's great. Whether US sailing has done the same, I don't know. But even if it has you have missed out on 'what might have been'. Or maybe you have operated through a club that forgot about accreditation because of its adverse operation and continued with the old ways.

 

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1 hour ago, Rambler said:

"Deplorable state of sailing" is perhaps too harsh. Yes, it is not what it used to be when all the old farts who inhabit these threads first started out. But that is not something specific to sailing. Many sports have suffered the same fate.

But there are a couple of things that many feel have done more to damage sailing than helped it.

Much/ most/ all of this can be associated with a broadly defined concept of "Olympic pathways" that seems to predominate the thought process of National bodies.

If one grew up with sailing that was 'club focused', and think that way (as I do), the sense of betrayal and abandonment is all the greater.

Start with learn to sail courses. Traditionally these were run at club level by putting a number of beginners in a suitably docile boat with a more experienced sailor. Forward thinking clubs usually used their intermediate juniors as their in boat trainers (obviously looked over by someone in a motor boat). That provided three benefits in one. It spread the training load, gave the juniors a sense of having a duty to put back into the volunteer club and gave them a sense of confidence and achievement at teaching. And better still the glow it gave the parents of those juniors when a trainee adult went up to the parents and congratulated them on what a fantastic and competent child they'd raised was something to be seen.

But NO said the national body. That's not how we'll do it. [As I understand it] to get our Olympic support money from the Government we need a more structured system than that. So this is what's going to happen (if you want an accredited sailing school) -

  • All instructors and assistant instructors must be accredited by us. Taking into account the training they must receive from us, that will cost you heaps per instructor (so there goes your 'spread the load, train the kids' system)
  • You will use a system where you put kids who've never been in a boat before, kick them off from the beach and tell them to come around a buoy and come back. A great system for a professional instructor wanting to deal with a big class to make money, but hopeless for a club using the old system and indeed a hopeless way of teaching because -
  • It scares a lot of kids witless not to have the comfort of an on board instructor; so you've immediately filtered out a certain part of the possible sailing group
  • It doesn't allow for a club operating in a 4 knot tide or with ten layers of moored boats off their beach.
  • They then pushed for the adoption of the Optimist Dinghy as the boat to be used for this. Something that must have been designed around 1700 (purple font), can't take more than one person (so no sailing with a friend), something where you have to be taught to sail and bail at the same time and something where when you capsize they come up full of water (assuming the scared witless kid doesn't just swim back to the beach). Why? Because its an international class and so offers a better Olympic Pathway. This at a time when many clubs were moving into junior classes with self draining cockpits and that could be sailed one or two up. And the difference is that when these boats capsize - after the first time - the kids love it.

Secondly, this 'pathways' program seeks to drain the clubs of sailing talent to put them in high performance programs. Bottom line is, the top guy goes through for special training, the rest end up as so much cannon fodder; dispirited, no longer tied to their clubs and usually lost to sailing.

Thirdly, there's a sense the bureaucracy all this has created (where the administration was previously slim and somewhat volunteer) now seemingly have a number of KPI's that impact on clubs. The recent requirement that everyone racing in every race must be a member of a club (and thereby affiliated with the National body) was viewed by many as effectively a way of artificially boosting 'membership' to meet KPI's. Much of the mucking about with learn to sail courses one suspects was also KPI driven.

Fourthly, this administration heavy body seems to drain money from clubs without offering anything meaningful back in return.

Some have additional beefs which go to specific incidents, but mine really goes to the way they have pulled clubs apart over the last 25 years. Sure they held 'public meetings' about all this, but completely ignored the many voices like mine that objected to what seemed to be their irrational plans. 

So it is very possible you've had a good experience. That's great. Whether US sailing has done the same, I don't know. But even if it has you have missed out on 'what might have been'. Or maybe you have operated through a club that forgot about accreditation because of its adverse operation and continued with the old ways.

 

This should be a white paper.

@IPLore

@shaggybaxter

 

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Just now, SPORTSCAR said:

In about 4 inch squares, on a roll with perforations between the squares...

Ha, LB has the tech for that

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1 hour ago, Rambler said:

"Deplorable state of sailing" is perhaps too harsh. Yes, it is not what it used to be when all the old farts who inhabit these threads first started out. But that is not something specific to sailing. Many sports have suffered the same fate.

But there are a couple of things that many feel have done more to damage sailing than helped it.

Much/ most/ all of this can be associated with a broadly defined concept of "Olympic pathways" that seems to predominate the thought process of National bodies.

If one grew up with sailing that was 'club focused', and think that way (as I do), the sense of betrayal and abandonment is all the greater.

Start with learn to sail courses. Traditionally these were run at club level by putting a number of beginners in a suitably docile boat with a more experienced sailor. Forward thinking clubs usually used their intermediate juniors as their in boat trainers (obviously looked over by someone in a motor boat). That provided three benefits in one. It spread the training load, gave the juniors a sense of having a duty to put back into the volunteer club and gave them a sense of confidence and achievement at teaching. And better still the glow it gave the parents of those juniors when a trainee adult went up to the parents and congratulated them on what a fantastic and competent child they'd raised was something to be seen.

But NO said the national body. That's not how we'll do it. [As I understand it] to get our Olympic support money from the Government we need a more structured system than that. So this is what's going to happen (if you want an accredited sailing school) -

  • All instructors and assistant instructors must be accredited by us. Taking into account the training they must receive from us, that will cost you heaps per instructor (so there goes your 'spread the load, train the kids' system)
  • You will use a system where you put kids who've never been in a boat before, kick them off from the beach and tell them to come around a buoy and come back. A great system for a professional instructor wanting to deal with a big class to make money, but hopeless for a club using the old system and indeed a hopeless way of teaching because -
  • It scares a lot of kids witless not to have the comfort of an on board instructor; so you've immediately filtered out a certain part of the possible sailing group
  • It doesn't allow for a club operating in a 4 knot tide or with ten layers of moored boats off their beach.
  • They then pushed for the adoption of the Optimist Dinghy as the boat to be used for this. Something that must have been designed around 1700 (purple font), can't take more than one person (so no sailing with a friend), something where you have to be taught to sail and bail at the same time and something where when you capsize they come up full of water (assuming the scared witless kid doesn't just swim back to the beach). Why? Because its an international class and so offers a better Olympic Pathway. This at a time when many clubs were moving into junior classes with self draining cockpits and that could be sailed one or two up. And the difference is that when these boats capsize - after the first time - the kids love it.

Secondly, this 'pathways' program seeks to drain the clubs of sailing talent to put them in high performance programs. Bottom line is, the top guy goes through for special training, the rest end up as so much cannon fodder; dispirited, no longer tied to their clubs and usually lost to sailing.

Thirdly, there's a sense the bureaucracy all this has created (where the administration was previously slim and somewhat volunteer) now seemingly have a number of KPI's that impact on clubs. The recent requirement that everyone racing in every race must be a member of a club (and thereby affiliated with the National body) was viewed by many as effectively a way of artificially boosting 'membership' to meet KPI's. Much of the mucking about with learn to sail courses one suspects was also KPI driven.

Fourthly, this administration heavy body seems to drain money from clubs without offering anything meaningful back in return.

Some have additional beefs which go to specific incidents, but mine really goes to the way they have pulled clubs apart over the last 25 years. Sure they held 'public meetings' about all this, but completely ignored the many voices like mine that objected to what seemed to be their irrational plans. 

So it is very possible you've had a good experience. That's great. Whether US sailing has done the same, I don't know. But even if it has you have missed out on 'what might have been'. Or maybe you have operated through a club that forgot about accreditation because of its adverse operation and continued with the old ways.

 

This draining of money from Clubs and the wider sport of sailing in order to send a select small bunch of elite sailors to a regatta every four years in quest of metal discs is just insane. Many / most of those elite sailors then move on to, or are already involved in, highly paid professional sailing careers the training for which we, the people, have largely funded. And then there's fuck all left for the rest of the sport after the bulk of what's left goes to pay fat administrative executive salaries and ludicrous inner city rentals. Bureaucracy gone mad. To the Barricades sailors, take back OUR sadly declining sport! 

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My question is what is the alternative to World Sailing? Can we live without this type of organization or do we have to live with some type of worldwide sanctioning organization? Can sailing as a sport (competitive sailing) exist with out WS? 

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17 hours ago, sailman said:

The common theme is always...get sailing out of the Olympics.    World Sailing is tied to them financially so don’t expect them to do anything constructive.

Yes!!!

16 hours ago, IPLore said:

Dont agree with that suggestion.

1,   While it is a small group, the best athletes in our sport like going to the Olympics. It is not for us to cut their sport

2,    If WS was well run, Olympic sailing should subsidize the rest of promoting sailing

 

No!!!  Get sailing out of Olympics and WS and all the rest of the IOC chasers (hello ILCA) would be forced to chase the club level sailor and actually benefit the sport.  OMG could you actually imagine!!

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4 hours ago, Rambler said:

"Deplorable state of sailing" is perhaps too harsh. Yes, it is not what it used to be when all the old farts who inhabit these threads first started out. But that is not something specific to sailing. Many sports have suffered the same fate.

But there are a couple of things that many feel have done more to damage sailing than helped it.

Much/ most/ all of this can be associated with a broadly defined concept of "Olympic pathways" that seems to predominate the thought process of National bodies.

If one grew up with sailing that was 'club focused', and think that way (as I do), the sense of betrayal and abandonment is all the greater.

Start with learn to sail courses. Traditionally these were run at club level by putting a number of beginners in a suitably docile boat with a more experienced sailor. Forward thinking clubs usually used their intermediate juniors as their in boat trainers (obviously looked over by someone in a motor boat). That provided three benefits in one. It spread the training load, gave the juniors a sense of having a duty to put back into the volunteer club and gave them a sense of confidence and achievement at teaching. And better still the glow it gave the parents of those juniors when a trainee adult went up to the parents and congratulated them on what a fantastic and competent child they'd raised was something to be seen.

But NO said the national body. That's not how we'll do it. [As I understand it] to get our Olympic support money from the Government we need a more structured system than that. So this is what's going to happen (if you want an accredited sailing school) -

  • All instructors and assistant instructors must be accredited by us. Taking into account the training they must receive from us, that will cost you heaps per instructor (so there goes your 'spread the load, train the kids' system)
  • You will use a system where you put kids who've never been in a boat before, kick them off from the beach and tell them to come around a buoy and come back. A great system for a professional instructor wanting to deal with a big class to make money, but hopeless for a club using the old system and indeed a hopeless way of teaching because -
  • It scares a lot of kids witless not to have the comfort of an on board instructor; so you've immediately filtered out a certain part of the possible sailing group
  • It doesn't allow for a club operating in a 4 knot tide or with ten layers of moored boats off their beach.
  • They then pushed for the adoption of the Optimist Dinghy as the boat to be used for this. Something that must have been designed around 1700 (purple font), can't take more than one person (so no sailing with a friend), something where you have to be taught to sail and bail at the same time and something where when you capsize they come up full of water (assuming the scared witless kid doesn't just swim back to the beach). Why? Because its an international class and so offers a better Olympic Pathway. This at a time when many clubs were moving into junior classes with self draining cockpits and that could be sailed one or two up. And the difference is that when these boats capsize - after the first time - the kids love it.

Secondly, this 'pathways' program seeks to drain the clubs of sailing talent to put them in high performance programs. Bottom line is, the top guy goes through for special training, the rest end up as so much cannon fodder; dispirited, no longer tied to their clubs and usually lost to sailing.

Thirdly, there's a sense the bureaucracy all this has created (where the administration was previously slim and somewhat volunteer) now seemingly have a number of KPI's that impact on clubs. The recent requirement that everyone racing in every race must be a member of a club (and thereby affiliated with the National body) was viewed by many as effectively a way of artificially boosting 'membership' to meet KPI's. Much of the mucking about with learn to sail courses one suspects was also KPI driven.

Fourthly, this administration heavy body seems to drain money from clubs without offering anything meaningful back in return.

Some have additional beefs which go to specific incidents, but mine really goes to the way they have pulled clubs apart over the last 25 years. Sure they held 'public meetings' about all this, but completely ignored the many voices like mine that objected to what seemed to be their irrational plans. 

So it is very possible you've had a good experience. That's great. Whether US sailing has done the same, I don't know. But even if it has you have missed out on 'what might have been'. Or maybe you have operated through a club that forgot about accreditation because of its adverse operation and continued with the old ways.

 

THIS!!

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12 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

This draining of money from Clubs and the wider sport of sailing in order to send a select small bunch of elite sailors to a regatta every four years in quest of metal discs is just insane. Many / most of those elite sailors then move on to, or are already involved in, highly paid professional sailing careers the training for which we, the people, have largely funded. And then there's fuck all left for the rest of the sport after the bulk of what's left goes to pay fat administrative executive salaries and ludicrous inner city rentals. Bureaucracy gone mad. To the Barricades sailors, take back OUR sadly declining sport! 

Spot on Sportscar! 

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14 hours ago, Rambler said:

"Deplorable state of sailing" is perhaps too harsh. Yes, it is not what it used to be when all the old farts who inhabit these threads first started out. But that is not something specific to sailing. Many sports have suffered the same fate.

But there are a couple of things that many feel have done more to damage sailing than helped it.

Much/ most/ all of this can be associated with a broadly defined concept of "Olympic pathways" that seems to predominate the thought process of National bodies.

If one grew up with sailing that was 'club focused', and think that way (as I do), the sense of betrayal and abandonment is all the greater.

Start with learn to sail courses. Traditionally these were run at club level by putting a number of beginners in a suitably docile boat with a more experienced sailor. Forward thinking clubs usually used their intermediate juniors as their in boat trainers (obviously looked over by someone in a motor boat). That provided three benefits in one. It spread the training load, gave the juniors a sense of having a duty to put back into the volunteer club and gave them a sense of confidence and achievement at teaching. And better still the glow it gave the parents of those juniors when a trainee adult went up to the parents and congratulated them on what a fantastic and competent child they'd raised was something to be seen.

But NO said the national body. That's not how we'll do it. [As I understand it] to get our Olympic support money from the Government we need a more structured system than that. So this is what's going to happen (if you want an accredited sailing school) -

  • All instructors and assistant instructors must be accredited by us. Taking into account the training they must receive from us, that will cost you heaps per instructor (so there goes your 'spread the load, train the kids' system)
  • You will use a system where you put kids who've never been in a boat before, kick them off from the beach and tell them to come around a buoy and come back. A great system for a professional instructor wanting to deal with a big class to make money, but hopeless for a club using the old system and indeed a hopeless way of teaching because -
  • It scares a lot of kids witless not to have the comfort of an on board instructor; so you've immediately filtered out a certain part of the possible sailing group
  • It doesn't allow for a club operating in a 4 knot tide or with ten layers of moored boats off their beach.
  • They then pushed for the adoption of the Optimist Dinghy as the boat to be used for this. Something that must have been designed around 1700 (purple font), can't take more than one person (so no sailing with a friend), something where you have to be taught to sail and bail at the same time and something where when you capsize they come up full of water (assuming the scared witless kid doesn't just swim back to the beach). Why? Because its an international class and so offers a better Olympic Pathway. This at a time when many clubs were moving into junior classes with self draining cockpits and that could be sailed one or two up. And the difference is that when these boats capsize - after the first time - the kids love it.

Secondly, this 'pathways' program seeks to drain the clubs of sailing talent to put them in high performance programs. Bottom line is, the top guy goes through for special training, the rest end up as so much cannon fodder; dispirited, no longer tied to their clubs and usually lost to sailing.

Thirdly, there's a sense the bureaucracy all this has created (where the administration was previously slim and somewhat volunteer) now seemingly have a number of KPI's that impact on clubs. The recent requirement that everyone racing in every race must be a member of a club (and thereby affiliated with the National body) was viewed by many as effectively a way of artificially boosting 'membership' to meet KPI's. Much of the mucking about with learn to sail courses one suspects was also KPI driven.

Fourthly, this administration heavy body seems to drain money from clubs without offering anything meaningful back in return.

Some have additional beefs which go to specific incidents, but mine really goes to the way they have pulled clubs apart over the last 25 years. Sure they held 'public meetings' about all this, but completely ignored the many voices like mine that objected to what seemed to be their irrational plans. 

So it is very possible you've had a good experience. That's great. Whether US sailing has done the same, I don't know. But even if it has you have missed out on 'what might have been'. Or maybe you have operated through a club that forgot about accreditation because of its adverse operation and continued with the old ways.

 

Best write up I've seen. Question, how is this system working for US Sailing?  It is not. They are struggling to get any medals.  And my hard work continues to support teams financially.

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Back then we had fun learning to sail,much as described above,then we had a race.Not W/L but around the various marks. Then we had more fun. That took many forms but mainly involved us doing our thing while the parents retired to the wardroom. Strangely none of us drowned and a lot stayed on and gravitated to senior classes..The 5 ring circus has largely eclipsed all that with rules ,regulations,supervision  and only racing ,racing,racing. WTF

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I can see both sides of this.  As a 50 something with friends who have kids but a "failure to launch" into the sport we love this has been a topic of conversation.  My dad was into sailing when I was younger and I liked to fish.  I didn't mind hanging out on the boat, but I hated sailing because I was terrified of the boat heeling.  No amount of explanation from the old man would make me believe that motion was "normal". 

When I review my ultimate entry into the sport I was asked by a friend my age to be rail meat on a 30+ foot PHRF boat that he'd been sailing on for a year with a bunch of old dudes, (dad not included) involved in control of the boat.  I learned and worked my way up slowly through jobs and responsibilities from just doing the outhaul on the main to the bow, to the cockpit.  Experienced a huge broach that nearly sunk the boat, but had lots of "mature" company on board.  There was no organized Jr Sailing at this club.  It was just a marina where people organized their own "paper club" and PHRF sailed.  The old man on the 30 PRHF boat had a tender that had a sail.  He offered it to me to use when I wanted.  Those were my first solo sails.  I had a close friend and we sailed on the PHRF boat together and then, ultimately fell into a couple of new Lasers in 1982.  By the time that happened I was 13.  That's WAY behind the curve age wise by today's standards, but I think 7-8 is WAY too young.  Anyway, point being, I worked into the sport slowly.  Comradery and mentoring was a huge part of me getting forever hooked.  I think had someone thrown me into an Opti by myself and said "sail this thing around the harbor and come back" when I was 9 I would not have stuck with it. 

All that said, some kids are different and get bored if they can't jump right into things.  

The money aspect is 100% different from back in the day as well.  Summer Jr programs have become big bucks and a chase for clubs to put out the "Best Jr sailors".  Not sure how I feel about that.

 

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On 5/19/2021 at 6:50 AM, Rambler said:

"Deplorable state of sailing" is perhaps too harsh. Yes, it is not what it used to be when all the old farts who inhabit these threads first started out. But that is not something specific to sailing. Many sports have suffered the same fate.

But there are a couple of things that many feel have done more to damage sailing than helped it.

Much/ most/ all of this can be associated with a broadly defined concept of "Olympic pathways" that seems to predominate the thought process of National bodies.

 

So it is very possible you've had a good experience. That's great. Whether US sailing has done the same, I don't know. But even if it has you have missed out on 'what might have been'. Or maybe you have operated through a club that forgot about accreditation because of its adverse operation and continued with the old ways.

 

I think the emphasis on an OLympic Pathway at local clubs must be very much an Australian thing.  We dont see it here in the US.  The kids with pathway aspirations tend to be parent funded in the early years and go for coaching. The other source of Olympians is college sailors coached at college.

We have accreditation for instructors in our junior sailing/ learn to sail programs. It basically ensures the instructors are well trained and include safety etc. We reinforce that with club training by the head instructor .    

We really dont see our resources and funding drained in any way by USS or WS. Our big issue is encouraging young folk who leave college to join the club and participate in adult sailing. USS and WS neither helps or hinders us in that. The local stuff w ehave to do ourselves. How to make sailing a popular sport as it used to be is a separate issue.  I suppose some publicity by being an OLympic sport does not hurt but I dont think it particularly impacts someone deciding to come and try sailing. I think the best we can do for our sport is get people young and have the right kind of "fun" early experience with a good social experience as well.

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18 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Best write up I've seen. Question, how is this system working for US Sailing?  It is not. They are struggling to get any medals.  And my hard work continues to support teams financially.

How much hard earned money do you contribute to the US Olympic fund?   I was just curious......because they have had a real hard time raising money to be competitive. Remember none of uS Sailing membership revenues support US Olympics...not a dime.  If you really do  support the teams financially.....then I apologize and than you for you support of the team that you supported.

I donated to the Paralympic effort a few years back and I was glad to. 

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In about every corner of the world there is motor sports.

There is no true world governing body, nor is it in the Olympics. 

There is something to be learned from this.

People who race to Dakar, have little in common with those who race at Indy or motocross at Daytona.

Neither need to be told by a bunch of suits, in London, what to do.

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5 hours ago, IPLore said:

I think the emphasis on an OLympic Pathway at local clubs must be very much an Australian thing.  We dont see it here in the US.  The kids with pathway aspirations tend to be parent funded in the early years and go for coaching. The other source of Olympians is college sailors coached at college.

We have accreditation for instructors in our junior sailing/ learn to sail programs. It basically ensures the instructors are well trained and include safety etc. We reinforce that with club training by the head instructor .    

We really dont see our resources and funding drained in any way by USS or WS. Our big issue is encouraging young folk who leave college to join the club and participate in adult sailing. USS and WS neither helps or hinders us in that. The local stuff w ehave to do ourselves. How to make sailing a popular sport as it used to be is a separate issue.  I suppose some publicity by being an OLympic sport does not hurt but I dont think it particularly impacts someone deciding to come and try sailing. I think the best we can do for our sport is get people young and have the right kind of "fun" early experience with a good social experience as well.

It very much depends on the club and the influences acting upon it.

When my kids were of the right age and we lived in Sydney, I put a lot of work in to developing the junior divisions of our club. But it was also the time when the National Body was mucking about with club LTS programs and bringing in new rules for accreditation (and thus I was heavily involved in the debates and meetings concerning that).

Whether it was policy (it seemed like it) or just the natural outcome of what they were doing, club run LTS programs seemed to start being replaced by outside professional sail trainers. I had enough time to dedicate to the cause that our own club avoided this for the time being. Indeed, with help from local parents, we developed a junior school sailing program that saw 120 kids rotate through the club every Friday afternoon; with many of them backing up for Sunday morning training too.

As part of this schools and local businesses funded a fleet of training boats which would take one or two kids (or a kid and small adult at a pinch), were self draining and even had a cut away transom so that the kids could slide into the boat after a capsize instead of climbing over the side. They were truly fantastic boats. perfect for the purpose. The kids loved them.

The trouble with professional trainers is that they have no incentive to eventually say "now you know how to sail, you should join a club". Rather their business plan is naturally to take students through ever higher levels of training. The clubs I know of that tried to circumvent this by having an in house professional, didn't seem to get any better result; just ended up in an acrimonious relationship with the professional. 

So to me that was the start of what I call the National Body pulling the clubs apart. Those that survived the best essentially continued with their own, old school, unaccredited LTS programs (as we did). And the Olympic influence on all of this, as I understand it, was the desire of the National bodies to get Government funding by running prescribed "structured" courses in pursuit of Olympic glory.

When I left Sydney as part of a tree/sea change the program at my old club was eventually taken over by those with more Olympic Pathways focus and National Body connections. The previous training boats were swapped over for Optimists, the program was trimmed down to accord more with accredited programs and the whole thing is now a shadow of what it once was.

But even when I was there, it was difficult to fight parent driven ambitions for their children towards both Olympic ambitions and generally 'winning' as the kids got older.

One group were attracted towards a Laser program towards Olympic ambitions run through another club. They were the cannon fodder. Burnt out and discarded, even though some made the National Junior sailing team. None of them still sail. Part of the problem here is that, having been taken to a certain height they regard themselves (with the natural arrogance of youth) as 'above' going back to being mere club sailors. Thus my reference to them being alienated from their old clubs.

Others towards an intensive program sailing small yachts, again with, if not Olympic ambitions, certainly ones of national glory. One became an Olympic Sliver Medalist and has gone on to great sailing things. The others (those I know of) also have abandoned sailing.

I suppose the Olympics can't take all the blame, because others were attracted to a club that ran intensive training to produce a string of National Champions in one of the most popular intermediate junior classes. Personally I regarded the atmosphere at this club as toxic, but parental ambitions can't be constrained. Here again, from what I've seen the 'also ran's in that course also became burnt out and discouraged and were lost to sailing.

Those who stayed in sailing, choosing their own path forward (often in Australian style skiffs), were those not driven into cannon fodder programs.

But all of this also had the effect of pulling apart the majority of clubs that couldn't compete with these intensive programs. Parents (and the National Body) forgot that much of the fun of sailing was the social side and as clubs were pulled apart it became harder to keep the critical mass to sustain the social side (and intensive programs rarely focused on the social side).

At my new club in the country, we could largely insulate ourselves from these influences (although, even here a pursuit of Olympic glory may have contributed to a particularly tragic outcome for one young man).

But as my kids grew up, my own focused changed to getting adults involved in the sport in fast exciting boats, so I am now well removed from all this stuff. Maybe things have changed for the better, but I doubt it.

Anyway, that's my rant over :rolleyes:

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36 minutes ago, Rambler said:

:rolleyes:

That's not a rant, that's a well written, thought provoking and unsettling first hand account synopsis of how we managed to get to here.

When my boat was being vandalised at its club mooring I reported it to a flag officer at the club. His advice was it happens all the time and suck it up before telling me all he wants to do is to develop the clubs junior sailors into the Olympics.

??? How did we get from there to...there? I might be not the brightest tool in the shed, but I detected a hint of the mindset that had taken root, sailing = olympic glory. I wrote out my resignation as soon as I hung up the phone. 

That wasn't the real litmus test of the decay in our sport by any means, merely a trivial moment in time that served as a indicator of a new mindset......what can sailing do for me personally?

My memories of a club were the exact opposite, it was what we could contribute to the sport, not the other way around. And the MNA's and World Sailing in their obsession for money and standing need to acknowledge that. This is their doing. 

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I'm the donation chairman for the Lake Michigan Sail Racing Federation. I chase down boats to be donated, handle the paperwork, move the boats around, deal with the storage, insurance, and sale.  Just yesterday I spent the day in Michigan getting a boat launched, and engine running for the new owner.  When I became chair 20 years ago, we had $50K in the bank.  Today we have $550K in the bank (investments).  The interest earned, we give in grants.  I think we gave our local team $5,000 this year, and last year too.

Direct out of pocket for me? Miles in the car, lots of time.  But my work is paying off.

6 hours ago, IPLore said:

How much hard earned money do you contribute to the US Olympic fund?   I was just curious......because they have had a real hard time raising money to be competitive. Remember none of uS Sailing membership revenues support US Olympics...not a dime.  If you really do  support the teams financially.....then I apologize and than you for you support of the team that you supported.

I donated to the Paralympic effort a few years back and I was glad to. 

 

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5 hours ago, shrimp said:

In about every corner of the world there is motor sports.

There is no true world governing body, nor is it in the Olympics. 

There is something to be learned from this.

People who race to Dakar, have little in common with those who race at Indy or motocross at Daytona.

Neither need to be told by a bunch of suits, in London, what to do.

This isn't really true. Most autosport clubs and sanctioning bodies worldwide, including Paris-Dakar, Indycar, even NASCAR are affiliated with the FIA,  and the FIA, at least symbolically, has a relationship with the IOC: https://www.fia.com/news/fia-collaborates-international-olympic-committee-launch-inaugural-olympic-virtual-series. But you are right that there probably aren't very strong financial dependencies and no one is too concerned about funding youth development, so none of this is likely to cause much stress. The challenge in sailing is  more likely to be that for would-be professional administrators and coaches, the only source of funding is via the Olympic streaming route, so they have to organize themselves that way. And that is a function of declining popularity. If you look at another more healthy sport, bicycle racing, the UCI and it's national members, have managed to become the sanctioning body for all of it, eventually even subsuming breakaway administrations in BMX racing and even Bike Trials (ask me where the skeletons are buried). But this doesn't really cause grief because the sport is healthy, with millions if riders on and off road, leading to multiple opportunities for people to make a living in the sport without relying on IOC handouts. The situation in cycling does support a sentiment expressed in this thread though that it's easy to get into road or mountain bike as a recreational activity, and end up racing rather than only having clubs with the express aim of getting kids to the Olympics. So sailing needs a way back where that is healthy, but it's not surprising that the current situation exists, with national body funding being some of the only dollars around.  

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Check the real estate values in the communities around most Yacht Clubs and Sailing Centers. Perform an analysis of the correlation between the top sailors in the world and their childhood home proximity to a Yacht Club or Sailing Center. Of course there are exceptions....but not many. Tie in the politics of the WS or USSA...Uncle Commodore will put a good word in for you kid!  Holy Smokes, I'm going to the Trials ,can I bring my girlfriend? 

It's not my boat, can I have a car even if I don't win? Pin on sailing

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Government could F**k up a wet dream.  I'd rather the chaos & fun then the control and misery they bring.  Sailing is supposed to be fun, and feed the soul.

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14 hours ago, Foiling Optimist said:

This isn't really true. Most autosport clubs and sanctioning bodies worldwide, including Paris-Dakar, Indycar, even NASCAR are affiliated with the FIA,  and the FIA, at least symbolically, has a relationship with the IOC: https://www.fia.com/news/fia-collaborates-international-olympic-committee-launch-inaugural-olympic-virtual-series. But you are right that there probably aren't very strong financial dependencies and no one is too concerned about funding youth development, so none of this is likely to cause much stress. The challenge in sailing is  more likely to be that for would-be professional administrators and coaches, the only source of funding is via the Olympic streaming route, so they have to organize themselves that way. And that is a function of declining popularity. If you look at another more healthy sport, bicycle racing, the UCI and it's national members, have managed to become the sanctioning body for all of it, eventually even subsuming breakaway administrations in BMX racing and even Bike Trials (ask me where the skeletons are buried). But this doesn't really cause grief because the sport is healthy, with millions if riders on and off road, leading to multiple opportunities for people to make a living in the sport without relying on IOC handouts. The situation in cycling does support a sentiment expressed in this thread though that it's easy to get into road or mountain bike as a recreational activity, and end up racing rather than only having clubs with the express aim of getting kids to the Olympics. So sailing needs a way back where that is healthy, but it's not surprising that the current situation exists, with national body funding being some of the only dollars around.  

Dear Foiling Opti:

I think you have some very good points.  FIA is not a governing body. FIA is a association, which some are members.

 World  Sailing is as it's name implies.  It is  the "World Governing Body".  So at the end of the day ,it is best to compare World Sailing to FIFA or another governing body. 

My perception, both are basically are Nazi regimes, leading most to believe, they need their tentacles in everything, and that all the wheels will fall off it they don't exist.

FIFA has billions in the bank, seems to be pretty good at what they do.   World Sailing is not good at what they do, and that's what's on the table.

So if World Sailing has a problem with my perception of them,  they need to have, "another meeting" and consider their public image.  

 

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14 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

I'm the donation chairman for the Lake Michigan Sail Racing Federation. I chase down boats to be donated, handle the paperwork, move the boats around, deal with the storage, insurance, and sale.  Just yesterday I spent the day in Michigan getting a boat launched, and engine running for the new owner.  When I became chair 20 years ago, we had $50K in the bank.  Today we have $550K in the bank (investments).  The interest earned, we give in grants.  I think we gave our local team $5,000 this year, and last year too.

Direct out of pocket for me? Miles in the car, lots of time.  But my work is paying off.

 

That is great.

You have a right to be concerned if that money is spent wisely. 

On 5/19/2021 at 9:10 PM, Glenn McCarthy said:

Question, how is this system working for US Sailing?  It is not. They are struggling to get any medals.  And my hard work continues to support teams financially.

 

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There seems to be a group here who feel that if Sailing withdrew from Olympic competition then suddenly somehow WS would be a better organization.  I think you set up for disappointment.

All the flaws would remain without the money to fix them.

 

What WS does well is the Racing Rules of sailing.....which is largely a volunteer committee dedicated to the rules.

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Didn't say they were all bad. It's the priority ,nay,absolute emphasis on the 5 ring circus thats in question. Even Hitler wasn't all bad. He organised the autobahns.The rest of it wasn't flash !

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37 minutes ago, shrimp said:

Dear Foiling Opti:

I think you have some very good points.  FIA is not a governing body. FIA is a association, which some are members.

 World  Sailing is as it's name implies.  It is  the "World Governing Body".  So at the end of the day ,it is best to compare World Sailing to FIFA or another governing body. 

My perception, both are basically are Nazi regimes, leading most to believe, they need their tentacles in everything, and that all the wheels will fall off it they don't exist.

FIFA has billions in the bank, seems to be pretty good at what they do.   World Sailing is not good at what they do, and that's what's on the table.

So if World Sailing has a problem with my perception of them,  they need to have, "another meeting" and consider their public image.  

 

it's interesting that the FIA is very much the governing body in the sense that it sets the rules, but, like FIFA, it does this for various professional leagues, notably Formula 1, which provides the operating money. But I don't think the FIA sends much to national federations though. FIFA is probably a more relevant example, where it's both the rule generating body for professional leagues but also owns a fantastically valuable property in the World Cup, and there, plenty of money gets shipped to national federations and there is lots of argument about how it's spent since, for example in Canada and the US, the women do way better than the men but get a fraction of the money. And you still have these problems of some people getting to be in control of that money from above but not really being accountable for it, so people wonder why Canadian men's soccer, can be dominated by a few expat brits for so long and have so little to show for it. But in soccer, auto sport and cycling, the scale is so much larger those dollars from on high are not the only source of funds, whereas sailing has shrunk to the point where there isn't much else going on. It's pretty dire that the situation is that bad in Australia, which over here we think of as a perennial sailing powerhouse. 

I think sailing will be worse of if it is out of the Olympics, for various reasons.  But the root issue for the problems we have is sailing's decline in popularity. The problems with World Sailing and the national federations are a result, not a cause of that. 

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1 hour ago, armchairadmiral said:

It's the priority ,nay,absolute emphasis on the 5 ring circus thats in question. 

He who pays the piper pays the tune. Yes there are immense amounts of resource and effort devoted to the Olympics, but its all paid for by the Olympics too. Take the Olympics away and take the Olympic money away and you have a much smaller organisation doing much less with much less money. At the very best all you could hope for is for the non Olympic stuff that is done now to continue unchanged, but the more likely scenario is economies of scale would be lost and there'd be even less resource than there is now. And, as a result of the cosmic class stuff up by the past executive and the unwise agreement for the brainless move to London, actually there's be no money for anything. He who rides a tiger is afraid to dismount

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Some good gossip here.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/228129/World-Sailing-buffeted-by-adverse-financial-winds

World Sailing had made the expensive move to London and increased expenditure on the basis of a sponsorship deal from Gazprom of UKP 4 million($5.6 million dollars). Then Gazprom fell through.

Expenditures include non recurring $1.7 million investment in future (which appears to include relocation costs to London)

UKP 300,000 on a governance review????

 

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14 hours ago, shrimp said:

Dear Foiling Opti:

I think you have some very good points.  FIA is not a governing body. FIA is a association, which some are members.

 World  Sailing is as it's name implies.  It is  the "World Governing Body".  So at the end of the day ,it is best to compare World Sailing to FIFA or another governing body. 

My perception, both are basically are Nazi regimes, leading most to believe, they need their tentacles in everything, and that all the wheels will fall off it they don't exist.

FIFA has billions in the bank, seems to be pretty good at what they do.   World Sailing is not good at what they do, and that's what's on the table.

So if World Sailing has a problem with my perception of them,  they need to have, "another meeting" and consider their public image.  

 

There is of course Sepp Blatter to remind us of FIFA not being up to scratch.

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WS is focussed on its dues paying member - the IOC...

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On 5/22/2021 at 1:36 PM, Timur said:

You mean JimC in other words an organization focused on its dues-paying members?  

Who do you think are the dues-paying members of World Sailing? Here's a clue, it isn't you.

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Alas, not much changes - Saving Sailing, by Nicholas Hayes (https://www.amazon.com/Saving-Sailing-Choices-Families-Commitments/dp/1933987073) published in 2009, discussed this in detail and noting this was why sailing in the US was down 40% in from 1997 to 2008 (and down 70% from 1979).  This struck a chord with me in the UK, clearly did with the OP in Oz and was written in the US - it is a global phenomenon.  Partially due to Olympic pathway (something like 95% of sailors don't race, and most of the rest only do so at at a club level, so why tailor the teaching programme to the 1-5%?), but also, as noted by OP, the investment in other skills (such as giving something back into the sport, deeper learning experiences, spending meaningful time with your family and friends).  Brilliant book.

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It is a not the right task to ask World Sailing to save sailing at the local level.  They can create a forum for sharing best ideas but implementation is at the local and class level. 
 

WS helps our sport if they provide useable and effective Racing Rules.   
 

They have been hosting regattas for the Olympic classes. I don’t know if those events break even or make a loss

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On 5/25/2021 at 8:07 PM, EYESAILOR said:

It is a not the right task to ask World Sailing to save sailing at the local level.  They can create a forum for sharing best ideas but implementation is at the local and class level. 
 

WS helps our sport if they provide useable and effective Racing Rules.   
 

They have been hosting regattas for the Olympic classes. I don’t know if those events break even or make a loss

100% correct Eye, it is not world sailings job to save sailing at the club level, it is merely to do their part in the organisational structure. Which they are not. Currently, our rules do not meet the IOC regulations for fairness and integrity and is enough grounds for potential removal from the Olympics. This stems from the rules surrounding protest hearings which are open to abuse by a protest committee chair as it purposefully removes the right for an applicant to rebut or appeal, despite how damning the evidence is to the contrary. 

And that came from a lawyer representing the AOC. Go figure.  

Cheers,

SB

  

 

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58 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

100% correct Eye, it is not world sailings job to save sailing at the club level, it is merely to do their part in the organisational structure. Which they are not. Currently, our rules do not meet the IOC regulations for fairness and integrity and is enough grounds for potential removal from the Olympics. This stems from the rules surrounding protest hearings which are open to abuse by a protest committee chair as it purposefully removes the right for an applicant to rebut or appeal, despite how damning the evidence is to the contrary. 

And that came from a lawyer representing the AOC. Go figure.  

Cheers,

SB

  

 

I am certainly not an expert on IOC regulations nor am I a lawyer, but if sailing's emphasis on abiding by the principles of fair play and sportsmanship over and above all other rules doesnt fit with the IOC ......then I would rather be a sailor governed by WS than governed by the the IOC.

I love our rules and the unique guiding principles of sportsmanship and Rule 2

2. A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play

Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when a boat breaks a rule and is not exonerated she will promptly take an appropriate penalty....

Your AOC lawyer needs to actually read our rules, especially 70.1.    Parties to a protest are always entitled to rebut during a hearing. If after a hearing a party thinks the rules were wrongly applied they can appeal

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12 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I am certainly not an expert on IOC regulations nor am I a lawyer, but if sailing's emphasis on abiding by the principles of fair play and sportsmanship over and above all other rules doesnt fit with the IOC ......then I would rather be a sailor governed by WS than governed by the the IOC.

I love our rules and the unique guiding principles of sportsmanship and Rule 2

2. A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play

Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when a boat breaks a rule and is not exonerated she will promptly take an appropriate penalty....

Your AOC lawyer needs to actually read our rules, especially 70.1.    Parties to a protest are always entitled to rebut during a hearing. If after a hearing a party thinks the rules were wrongly applied they can appeal

Not my AOC lawyer, but regardless any appeal can not refute facts found. Simply misrepresent the facts found. That is at odds not only with Rule 2 bit with the IOC charter.  

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7 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Not my AOC lawyer, but regardless any appeal can not refute facts found. Simply misrepresent the facts found. That is at odds not only with Rule 2 bit with the IOC charter.  

Are you suggesting an appeals committee should be able to alter the facts found? I think that would be contrary to any appeals process in any court system.

If the appeals committee believe that an significant error may have been made by the original protest committee or if significant new evidence became available within a reasonable time frame then the appeals committee can order the protest hearing reopened or a new hearing with new protest committee be convened. 

Appeals committees should not be allowed to alter facts. Facts should only be determined in a hearing with both parties present.

 

 

 

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If the Olympics get cancelled again does WS survive. Is there any hope it finally gets what it deserves and dies?

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17 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I love our rules and the unique guiding principles of sportsmanship and Rule 2

2. A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play

Hardly unique to have fair play in the rule book?

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11 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Are you suggesting an appeals committee should be able to alter the facts found? I think that would be contrary to any appeals process in any court system.

If the appeals committee believe that an significant error may have been made by the original protest committee or if significant new evidence became available within a reasonable time frame then the appeals committee can order the protest hearing reopened or a new hearing with new protest committee be convened. 

Appeals committees should not be allowed to alter facts. Facts should only be determined in a hearing with both parties present.

 

 

 

Not right actually, not if there has been jurisdictional error. 

At least in most of the English speaking world.

Which of course is the corruption of the process in Australian Sailing.

Appeal Committee hiding behind facts found with jurisdictional error

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13 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Are you suggesting an appeals committee should be able to alter the facts found? I think that would be contrary to any appeals process in any court system.

If the appeals committee believe that an significant error may have been made by the original protest committee or if significant new evidence became available within a reasonable time frame then the appeals committee can order the protest hearing reopened or a new hearing with new protest committee be convened. 

Appeals committees should not be allowed to alter facts. Facts should only be determined in a hearing with both parties present.

 

 

 

Which is the way it reads, not the way it is implemented, which is the problem. So the logical approach then is simple, amend the rules to close off the abuse. Which is how sports have evolved since the dawn of time. But in sailing, that doesn't happen. They know the rules are broken and yet those that earn a wage to monitor exactly this type of issue will NOT make changes. Which is either sheer laziness or a lack of integrity. 

Regardless...why would you not fix it?

Because it must suit them.

There is no other explanation. 

 

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11 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Which is the way it reads, not the way it is implemented, which is the problem. So the logical approach then is simple, amend the rules to close off the abuse. Which is how sports have evolved since the dawn of time. But in sailing, that doesn't happen. They know the rules are broken and yet those that earn a wage to monitor exactly this type of issue will NOT make changes. Which is either sheer laziness or a lack of integrity. 

Regardless...why would you not fix it?

Because it must suit them.

There is no other explanation. 

 

As you pointed out, the rules are written correctly so they dont need amending. There seems to be an implementation issue in your jurisdiction

 

14 hours ago, Livia said:

Not right actually, not if there has been jurisdictional error. 

At least in most of the English speaking world.

Which of course is the corruption of the process in Australian Sailing.

Appeal Committee hiding behind facts found with jurisdictional error

If there has been a jurisdictional error (error in interpreting the rules based on facts found), then the appeals committee can overturn the decision. 

 An appeals committee cannot alter the facts because that would be unjust without a full hearing. The right to a hearing and the right to be present when facts are presented is a fundamental right in the RRS.   However, the RRS give the appeals committee the power require a new hearing with a new committee . The appeal would have to present truly compelling evidence that there was significant new evidence available in a reasonable time that the PC did not consider or that the PC had made a significant error in assembling the evidence.   Anyway implementation of  the appeals process is down to the local MNA.  World sailing doesnt appoint your local appeals cttee, nor should they. Here in the US our appeals committee includes dave Perry who is widely trusted and respected.

This is sailboat racing and meant to be fun.  Protests should be resolved as amicably as possible and appeals shold be the exception.

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On 5/19/2021 at 10:18 AM, Rum Runner said:

My question is what is the alternative to World Sailing? Can we live without this type of organization or do we have to live with some type of worldwide sanctioning organization? Can sailing as a sport (competitive sailing) exist with out WS? 

Thank god IYRU/ISAFF/WorldSailing was created in 1907 otherwise we never would have had the Yacht American win the 100 guinea cup, presciently 56 years earlier.

I’m sure when Bluenose took on the best from Gloucester for The Fishermen’s Cup they sought guidance blessing and guidance from the then 14 year old IYRU.

Without WorldSailing no one ever would have thought of organizing sailboat racing, kind of like without FIA no one ever would have thought of racing cars and without FIS no one would have thought of racing on skis (ignore the record of competition going back to at least the 1700s).

Imagine if the ancient Greeks had ever thought of organizing panhellenic games...thank god they waited for the IOC to come up with the idea of the Olympics

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It is worth remembering that IYRU and NAYRU were originally founded to meet the need for racing sailors to have a uniform set of rules and measurement standards

At it its most essential , that is the role of World Sailing outside of the Olympics.

It is the sports federation recognized as representing sailing by the IOC, so as long as sailing continues as an Olympic sport WS will receive a share of the revenues from the Olympics.  It seems to me that the WS should seek to ensure that the revenue from the Olympics exceeds whatever it hands out to MNAs os spends to support Olympics. The surplus should be used to promote the sport in general.

WS's Role

  • Racing Rules of Sailing. 
  • Measurement Rules - paid for by boats getting measured
  • Consistent training/standards of international judges and Race committees (working with local MNAs)
  • Defining Olympic events and criteria for an entry slot -paid for by Olympic revenues
  • Running the Olympic events -paid for by Olympic revenues
  • Promoting the sport. Cost of a nice website , face book page and publicizing events etc.

Clean sheet of paper and figure a budget out to do this. It should not be a lot of money.

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