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Oh my. I think someone might have soiled their shorts on that one. That was a long damn ride. Backwards!

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what were they doing?  did they lose power?  

I'm totally surprised they didn't flip on that second wave.  But the thing that really astonishes me is the meandering around - sideways to the swell - inside the break.   And then drifting - sideways - between the jetties.  MUST have been something wrong.

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Wouldn't surprise me if the they broke the steering during the first big surf.

Because you can steer with both throttles (if you're thinking about it AND if your rudders aren't jammed hard over) it might be that one engine had died.

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17 minutes ago, sledracr said:

what were they doing?

not thinking .

Tweed Bar is directly south of Duranbah Beach

Duranbah Surf Report & Forecast

https://www.surfline.com/surf-report/duranbah/5842041f4e65fad6a7708c11?camId=5d48314fc4a6abc37618fd13

 

it's really easy to check conditions before venturing out .

 

another view

https://roads-waterways.transport.nsw.gov.au/maritime/using-waterways/conditions/web-cameras/tweed-heads-entrance.html

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In just about all these bar crossings gone wrong, when the boat gets thrown over the motor(s) stop. Kind of explains lying side on for so long.

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My question is what kind of savage looks outside, sees those waves breaking top-to-bottom way out there and decides it's a good idea to go out?  If you watch for a few minutes there was no obvious channel to get outside.  Set waves were breaking everywhere.  I'd guess one or both rudders and/or steering was severely compromised in the first backward surf.  

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Yeah, no way the steering system survived this. Rudders were probably pointing the wrong way or in random directions which explains the "drunken slug" track afterwards and moving sideways into the channel.

To be fair they had almost made it, another 100yard or so they would have been fine so they might have observed the conditions and decided it was safe to go and they were almost right. 

Could have been a lot worse too as they were pretty close to capsizing on that second one (or even going bow over stern at the end of the surf), or they could have just been thrown onto the rocks.

It's the stuff of nightmares for sure!

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In the '60s Richard, his brother Stephen Gendreau, and I had become well known for catching waves with Our Kite class dinghies at Steamers Lane and riding the waves into shore at Cowles beach where Jack had his first surfboard rental shack. Jack Oneil bought one of the first Pacific Cat catamarans and enlisted us to teach him how to surf with it. I think we flipped it in the first wave we caught and broke the mast. Lesson learned he got a new mast and we had a great time that summer scarring the surfers!!! I meant scaring, but surfers can get mean when you are on their wave might have been some scarring too. I was usually on the rudder and I can remember someone trying to hit me with his board.

 

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One thing this video highlights is that a catamaran can take one hell of a breaking wave side- on and stay upright.

I doubt if most of us will ever encounter a side-on hit like that in a mid ocean storm with a catamaran.

Looking at the video it seems that a bit more throttle would have got them over that first wave and they could have made it. Full credit to the skipper for edging his boat into safe water afterwards despite a lack of steering.

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Rumours are he lost an engine then rope fouled the other. some form of rudder damage.

You wouldn’t want your hand inside the spokes.

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Ozzies you can relax. Probably not a local. Could well have underestimated the waves (or just ignorant)

"Kyle Webb, American skipper of the Begonia, a 12m catamaran, times his exit of the Tweed River to coincide with the morning high tide."

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Power and steering at the same time or within not long. Sucks. Looked like at one stage he had one engine or rudders were jammed in near full lock? Under estimated the waves is an under statement. Surely he would have seen them on the way out or back in? Unless they formed all of a sudden. I was going to suggest furling the jib out for some power but if steering was buggered he was a sitting duck.

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On 5/28/2021 at 3:20 PM, Airwick said:

To be fair they had almost made it, another 100yard or so they would have been fine so they might have observed the conditions and decided it was safe to go and they were almost right. 

Many years ago I was at a product launch and Elle Macpherson was there. I was introduced to her and chatted briefly. So if this guy almost made it over the tweed bar, I have almost rooted Elle Macpherson. 

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16 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Power and steering at the same time or within not long. Sucks. Looked like at one stage he had one engine or rudders were jammed in near full lock? Under estimated the waves is an under statement. Surely he would have seen them on the way out or back in? Unless they formed all of a sudden. I was going to suggest furling the jib out for some power but if steering was buggered he was a sitting duck.

Or listened to the weather report? Every news outlet has been talking about this swell. Covid has caused many nubbies to rush out and buy boats and head out armed with nothing more than Navionics on their phone and self belief.

Who ever it is they are a fucking moron.

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27 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Or listened to the weather report? Every news outlet has been talking about this swell. Covid has caused many nubbies to rush out and buy boats and head out armed with nothing more than Navionics on their phone and self belief.

Who ever it is they are a fucking moron.

Here in New Zealand even folks on FaceBook are going on and on about that storm. Posting screen shots of Predict Wind showing a 50kn gale on New Zealand's Northland's eastern shore with dire wave heights. They had been predicting this one for over a week beforehand and PW sure made it look somewhat  worse than it turned out to actually be here in the BOI area (at least where we are moored)

It was foolhardy to go out against those waves in a 40' cat, but it's easy to be critical. I for one learned allot by watching that video. The waves that break on shore or over a bar hold considerably more danger that the waves we have had break across our decks thus far in strong gale force conditions while we continued to sail to windward in a moderate displacement multi-hull. I took real notice of the moment his transoms dug in near the end of the backward surf and his rudders or steering should clearly have been damaged at or before this moment.

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You can safely surf into the harbor mouth in Santa Cruz when the channel is dredged and the tide is up with big swells. But if you are on a wave not in the channel you will surf down the face to the ground and break your boat. A J24 was a total loss in the early 90's. When you sail out of that harbor regularly the first thing you learn hopefully is where to find the current soundings map of the mouth in the winter and spring. You also learn to plan your sails around the tides a bit. It also helps to have a powerful motor so you can time a run between swells when its really big surf, in or out. We always had an oversize outboard on the Cal27. Came in really handy but sucked when stowing it below for racing. 

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from Begonia's blog a few days later:

Quote
Home Port: 
 
 Portland, Oregon
About: Living aboard and (mostly) sailing around since 2003. Various boats (Mono-hulls and catamarans - we're not prejudiced!). Maryanne is British, Kyle is American but we don't care too much about borders and labels.
Boat: 2001 Fountaine-Pajot Athena 38
 

At Mooring Ball (free): Terranora Creek (Tweed River), Tweed Heads, NSW - Coral Sea, Australia. Our position: loc:-28.1859, 153.5448

Sail From: Boyd Park Jetty, Terranora Creek (Tweed River), Tweed Heads South, NSW To: Terranora Creek (Tweed River), Tweed Heads, NSW

We travelled [0.3]nm (through water) on this trip. We have moved [0.2]nm from prior posting position - giving a P2P average of [1.0]kt, Avg speed (through the water):1.5kt.

Location Comments: [On a 24-hour limit courtesy mooring, river traffic can cause a few wakes, otherwise peaceful. Nice scenery.]

General Comments: [After making steering and engine repairs we left the dock and hard tested the systems in the river. All is well, so we will await the next weather window for departure while organizing pending haul-out.]

http://sv-footprint.blogspot.com

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14 hours ago, LB 15 said:

Many years ago I was at a product launch and Elle Macpherson was there. I was introduced to her and chatted briefly. So if this guy almost made it over the tweed bar, I have almost rooted Elle Macpherson. 

The way she tells the story of that day, SHE rooted YOU and left you a giggling, drooling mess afterwards, albeit a happy one.

Funny how memories differ.

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Funny, watching the vid I got the taste of adrenalin in my mouth, just imagining what that felt like. "Oh shit" moments are long remembered... "Well, I guess we should have stayed put today after all." 

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15 hours ago, sugarbird said:

“Well, I guess we should have stayed put today after all." 

Yeah, I’ve had a few of those moments.  

most recently, although a lot less dramatic, left La Conner for home at the end of a cruise last summer.  Left according to “schedule” instead of conditions, headed out the south end of the Swinomish Slough past “Hole in the Wall” and Goat Island into a 25-and-building westerly, with 3-4 foot chop.  

for those not familiar it’s a narrow and shallow 2-mile east-west channel with mud shoals on one side, rocks on the other, and no good bail-out options.  

spent the time oscillating between two thoughts: “should have stayed put and waited for better conditions” (I mean, it wasn’t really bad, but it wasn’t exactly relaxing), and “c’mon, 37-year-old diesel, don’t  get fussy at least until we’re in open water…”

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It is an interesting study when considering the catamaran storm tactic I have read off that talks about laying beam on the the breaking waves with a drogue deployed fore and aft.

As I understand it uses the buoyancy of the leeward hull and the beam to prevent capsize and the boat ‘surfs’ sideways. I think those cats (Lagoon?) have small keels that may cause it to ‘trip’. Either way it took a couple on the beam that would have put most monohulls on their roofs! 

Has anyone tried it? Zonker I would be interested in your thoughts? I have a couple of blue water cat trips coming up when we are no longer gated.

 

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In a centre-board cat, with no board down, I,ve gone a hundred miles against the current, surfing sideways on the bigger seas in a big southerly, from off Cape Moreton to somewhere off Fraser Island.  No sails, no drogue.

It would be nice to say "no worries".  Not quite.

It's a viable tactic for that kind of cat (Fastback 30) but not much fun.

If he timed his run for the top of the tide, he's done himself a dis-service.  Top of the tide would give him the deepest water but that shouldn't be critical for a cat.  He should have had a look for the best flood, maybe an hour or two before the top, to flatten the seas.

Pretty impressive demo though.

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First disclaimer: I've never sailed in really bad weather in our cat or any others. Worst sustained sailing winds were 25-30 upwind (beating for days at a time).

But not even real gale or storm conditions. 

Not a fan of that idea though. Cats are remarkably stable even with a beam breaking sea, as the video illustrates. There was a boat in the Queen's Birthday storm that got knocked sideways by some big waves and it just surfed sideways too. I can imagine the forces on a drogue bow and stern would be very high. Just like plucking the middle of a guitar string. Cats with daggerboards are said to be better resistant to being tripped by shallow keels, as they raise the boards in a real storm.

I think the better storm tactics is to run downwind with a sufficient drogue to slow you down to avoid a big pitchpole and out of control surfing.

OR

For really big storms, sit facing the seas on a parachute sea anchor on a long rode + bridle (close to 150-200m). I had a long conversation to a Bering Sea fisherman who sat out 80-90 fully developed storm on a 36' Derek Kelsall cat called Catherine Estelle. He said for 3 days they just sat inside and cowered a bit as giant waves just washed over the entire boat. A lot of his story is in Victor Shane's Drag Device Database, a lot of stories about cats and monos using various types of drogues and how well they worked. 

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On 5/28/2021 at 12:00 AM, h20man said:

Stunning...

that is what nightmares are made of....  I am surprised that it did flip when hit broadsides......

I just realised a bit bunny ate one of my characters when I typed the above.. and too late to edit so.. restating properly....

Stunning...

that is what nightmares are made of....  I am surprised that it didn't flip when hit broadsides......

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9 hours ago, Zonker said:

First disclaimer: I've never sailed in really bad weather in our cat or any others. Worst sustained sailing winds were 25-30 upwind (beating for days at a time).

But not even real gale or storm conditions. 

Not a fan of that idea though. Cats are remarkably stable even with a beam breaking sea, as the video illustrates. There was a boat in the Queen's Birthday storm that got knocked sideways by some big waves and it just surfed sideways too. I can imagine the forces on a drogue bow and stern would be very high. Just like plucking the middle of a guitar string. Cats with daggerboards are said to be better resistant to being tripped by shallow keels, as they raise the boards in a real storm.

I think the better storm tactics is to run downwind with a sufficient drogue to slow you down to avoid a big pitchpole and out of control surfing.

OR

For really big storms, sit facing the seas on a parachute sea anchor on a long rode + bridle (close to 150-200m). I had a long conversation to a Bering Sea fisherman who sat out 80-90 fully developed storm on a 36' Derek Kelsall cat called Catherine Estelle. He said for 3 days they just sat inside and cowered a bit as giant waves just washed over the entire boat. A lot of his story is in Victor Shane's Drag Device Database, a lot of stories about cats and monos using various types of drogues and how well they worked. 

@Zonker  Have you checked out the JSD (Jordan Series Drogue) ?  To be clear I have no financial interest in the JSD (as I have mentioned it before and someone was thinking that I must have a vested interest in it.)  I have one myself for my monohull, yet never used it in anger.  I met Jeanne Socrates and she said it was like the storm stops after deployment..  The idea seems sound, so that there is not just one drogue and shock loads, but rather the load is spread out amongst the small drogues.

The one thing I have heard is that the JSD does get used up during deployment (and is a bitch to recover), so careful checking must be done.

Don Jordan (the inventor of the JSD) could have patented his invention (but did not) was   inspired by the 1979 Fastnet disaster, and had help testing his ideas with the USCG.

A May 1987 report (attached) was done by the USCG that conclude  that a series  drogue is recommended for optimum performance.

 

droguecoastguardreport.pdf

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Yes of course. The beauty of the JSD is that you're likely to have some part of the drogue system in a wave at all times. A single drogue might get tumbled by wave turbulence or lots of slack will develop in the system. I think they are very good style of drogue.

The drawback is the cost or man hours to sew all the flipping cones and attach them to the line. Recovery isn't a picnic either.

They certainly don't get "used up". A few cones sometimes get blown out or torn but you can still use the other 95% remaining.

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21 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Yes of course. The beauty of the JSD is that you're likely to have some part of the drogue system in a wave at all times. A single drogue might get tumbled by wave turbulence or lots of slack will develop in the system. I think they are very good style of drogue.

The drawback is the cost or man hours to sew all the flipping cones and attach them to the line. Recovery isn't a picnic either.

They certainly don't get "used up". A few cones sometimes get blown out or torn but you can still use the other 95% remaining.

I may have mistyped when I used the words 'used up'.  I've heard from others that have deployed that (as you mentioned) some cones may get blown out or torn, and thus it is a good idea to ensure all is good and repair after deployment... , and multiple deployments do result in obvious wear and tear... (that can of course be fixed).

Cost is a bitch...  but like any boat thing... it is something that is difficult to avoid..

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The Jordan is nice in that you can expend a lot of your own labour to make one instead of just buying one. Kits are available with all cones pre-cut out for sewing.

 

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30 minutes ago, Zonker said:

The Jordan is nice in that you can expend a lot of your own labour to make one instead of just buying one. Kits are available with all cones pre-cut out for sewing.

 

By cost I meant $ or.. time... both are somewhat limited in my own world.. ;)   Kits are available.. or one can easily make from scratch.. All the instructions and calculations are public domain.

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Sorry about the drift.

My experience of laying ahull and letting it surf wasn't voluntary.  It was the last resort.

This was a long time ago, when there wasn't much information on parachute anchoring.

Initially, I deployed a parachute, a 24' diameter cargo chute on a bridle from both bows, with an anchor and some chain to hold it down. On 100+ metres of double braid.

The double braid had little stretch, so the shock loads were savage.  Between swells, the cat surged towards the parachute, then the next breaking sea would hit the cat, fling it side-on until the bridle came taught and it felt as if the whole boat was airborne.  The bridle broke both bow rails and the forestay before the bridle broke.  The inner forestay held the mast up.

I turned and ran barepoled for ten hours until I was falling asleep, then went below to die in comfort in the windward hull.  Centreboard was up, rudders down (no choice) and secured hard-over.

Lessons learned;  The parachute may have been bigger than it needed to be for a 30', 2 ton, 15' beam cat but I don't think that was the main factor.  The double braid should have been replaced with nylon or similar and long.  The chain I used on the bridle to prevent chafe wrecked my forestay and bow fittings but that wouldn't have happened if the cat could be held head-to-wind, which is the whole idea.  Being held beam-on to big breaking seas was dumb.

The conditions were not extreme, probably forty knots with a strong counter-current, which was the cause of the breaking seas.

Why was I out there?  Fear of authority.  Back in the day, we arranged to clear customs a week in advance and left on the date, come hell or high water.  Well, I did. Dumb.

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On 5/27/2021 at 6:41 PM, Zonker said:

Because you can steer with both throttles (if you're thinking about it AND if your rudders aren't jammed hard over) it might be that one engine had died.

I was thinking one engine died too, because of the circles they kept spinning. It is hard to keep straight with one engine on flat water, let alone what they were in.

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On 5/28/2021 at 8:19 AM, Zonker said:

Cool footage. If it was a mono it would be upside down.

 

 

Typical cat whacker comment. Why are you blokes so insecure that you have to put shit on mono's every chance you get? At least mono's pop back up when they go upside down, dumbass.

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