Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I heard rumors of this being done in Lasers, Laser Radials specifically. Is this possible or is it a myth?

Rio Olympics - Images from the Laser and Laser Radial racing - day 5

This picture almost looks like the bow is planning slightly...

Pin on Laser Sailinganother example...

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Technically, progress to windward can be made while close reaching, planing.

Optimum VMG is usually achieved by not planing, though might in rare conditions. For example, surfing is a type of exceeding hull speed (planing), and on rare occasions I have surfed while going to windward.

There is another argument, the moment that a Laser / ILCA exceeds it's hull speed of 5 knots, it is planing. In fresh conditions, 5 knots can be exceeded by top sailors sailing upwind in a Laser.

For all these reasons, I'm going say yes it is possible, though it is rare.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, fastyacht said:
25 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Define "planing"

 

When pigs fly.

Well, a lot of people claim Flying Scots plane...... then there are those who make the same statement about J-105s

Am I going to hell?

FB- Doug

Link to post
Share on other sites

The answer is yes:

**sailing a class legal Laser

I have accomplished it in VERY FLAT water in about 15/18 mph of wind. 
there is a place on our lake where gusts wrap around a hundred foot high almost vertical hill. I weighed about 13 stone at the time. The trick was to reach off, get on plane snd come up to close hauled. The way Bes were no more than 10cm
I had to hike on one Leg with the other in my lap my hands held over my head .I eas in my thirties.  I was good for about twenty seconds of this. 
there were three of us trying. The 6’3” 175 pound guy made it happen once.. I did it three times. The other guy was 200 lbs but couldn’t hike hard enough. 
 

repeat: you need perfect geography to pull it off.

 

***non Laser  legal 

Nick and Ed Monske probably each weighed about 130lbs

They were about 20 at the time. They also had a Tornado so they had trapeze gear.

Ed sewed three webbing loops on the luff sleeve of an old sail. He put the loops about a foot above the mast joint. He gave a lot of thought to the “forestay” loop preventing mast bend and the trapeze loops on the side encouraging bend. He ended up with loops at multiple locations.

anyway, when there was just enough wind for a 130 pound guy to hang flat out on a trapeze the boat planed from close reach to closehauled.... 

but

if the wind picked up and waves grew, the boat wouldn’t plane to weather. 

They quit fooling with the trapeze because it wasn’t as fun as racing in the  fleet. 
 

The Monske boys were pretty good sailors. On one  light air Wednesday in 1985 they alternated who did RC and who used the Laser and won all nine races. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Define to windward, 1 degree above 90 degrees to the wind is to windward, that is certainly achievable. Hard on the wind highly unlikely ..

30 years ago somewhat younger and fitter than now, in  20 - 25mph winds and nearly flat water,  I occasionally held a plane up  to half way between 90degrees and hard on the wind. There was definitely a sweet spot for those conditions. It was possible to overtake some boats that were hard on the wind. You can't sail through 'em, sail round 'em.

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, The Q said:

Define to windward, 1 degree above 90 degrees to the wind is to windward, that is certainly achievable. Hard on the wind highly unlikely ..

30 years ago somewhat younger and fitter than now, in  20 - 25mph winds and nearly flat water,  I occasionally held a plane up  to half way between 90degrees and hard on the wind. There was definitely a sweet spot for those conditions. It was possible to overtake some boats that were hard on the wind. You can't sail through 'em, sail round 'em.

 

 

Bingo, I think this hits on the real key... higher VMG by bearing away, and focusing on that within a fairly broad definition of "planing."

I've never done it in a Laser, but it seems likely with a tall sailor to be able to plane to windward-ish... may be very difficult to hit the sweet spot of higher VMG than a boat with the sailor hiking just as hard and pointing up in the traditional 45 dgree ish range. I' ve sailed a couple of dinghies that you didn't need to crack off very much and you could plane, and could break past other close-hauled boats doing so. The 470 is one, the Johnson 18 is another. I've never raced a VX-1 but it seems very likely too. Flat water plays a big part of this equation.

FB- Doug

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

With a broad definition of upwind and a broad definition of planing, a Laser can plane upwind in laboratory conditions - broadly speaking. I have never personally experienced planing in a Laser  while sailing close-hauled. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Admiral Hornblower said:

I suppose the Aero should probably be able to plane to windward also, with more ease since its lighter and faster?

It has been claimed that the Aero planes to windward but I have never experienced anything close to what I would call planing when hard on the wind.

But if you mean will an Aero plane at angles between 45 and 90 degrees to the wind, then of course it does that.

My impression is the the Aero responds better than the Laser to cracking off a few degrees from hard on the wind. And it's also true that the Aero will start planing at somewhat lower wind speeds than the Laser.

 

And, of course, the Aero, mainly because of its lower weight, will accelerate faster than Laser in a puff.

Can't beat Newton. F=ma.

newton.jpg.69d4f9ba500fa7d2a3a33c732a441765.jpg

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The question was about Lasers and I answered above..

as for the AERO its upwind planing is a lot like the Fireball. 
defining planing fir my response: there is regular displacement sailing and a lifted over the water node that is significantly faster. 
 

on a Fireball, 50 years ago, we used to have. Conditions on Erie bay where Fireballs could maintain a sustained planing mode while close hauled. Generally, we lost the planing mode because we hit a wake or a weed patch.

as a racing move it was risk eith possible big rewards.

we had to bear off to get on plane. If we didn’t have enough wind to stay on plane while coming back up to close hauled we simply lost ground vs our competitors. 
 

While planing it was often necessary to bear off a bit to sustain the plane .... but if we lost it, we had also lost distance to weather. 
 

also, as the waves became flatter approaching shore it was easier to plane in less wind but the area closer to shore also had less wind . It was a fun contest 

On the AERO I have fiddled a bit with planing to weather. 
 One particularly educational afternoon was spent sailing upwind near a well sailed Ensign.  Results:

**If I sail the AERO “like a regular boat” I  point a little higher and go a little faster than the Ensign.
 

**If I foot off and  plane  and head back up without falling off the plane I can point slightly higher than the Ensign at a higher speed maybe even as fast as double speed.

**if I foot off and get on plane but cannot get back up to pointing at least as high, I lose as much or more distance than I gain by sustaining a plane.

**I cannot sail from behind and through the Ensign’s lee and pass in any condition. (In winds over about 12 I can sail through an Ensign’s Lee on a Laser . I think my AERO 9 is slower upwind in big breeze than a Laser. I know it is slower upwind than an AERO 7 in a blow) 

**powerboat wakes knock me off close hauled plane 

 

untested theory: 

I think a jock who could hike like hell could crack off the wind a bit in an AERO 9 and plane all around the course in a blow. 
perhaps in the 1970s I was that guy. Today I would last about three minutes trying and be too exhausted to sail normally for an hour after trying. 


 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

... higher VMG by bearing away, and focusing on that within a fairly broad definition of "planing."

That's also the definition of "pinching." Every boat can do that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Doug Halsey said:
23 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

... higher VMG by bearing away, and focusing on that within a fairly broad definition of "planing."

That's also the definition of "pinching." Every boat can do that.

True

But you don't always get higher VMG by pinching... sometimes there's a tactical reason to get a boatlength upwind even you lose half a length overall... closing a lane into the windward mark for example.

With a given boat in given conditions, there's one path to the VMG... it may be pinching, it may be footing (which can include planing), it may be only a tiny increment above the conventional whitebread close-hauled.

In the Johnson 18, when upwind planing was possible, it took some quick sail adjustment and hard hiking, and the gain in VMG was dramatic enough to be able to break a leading boat's cover within a short sprint. The Jn18 was a bit more tolerant of heeling and a slight chop, but it was still a small window of opportunity.

FB- Doug

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you really know that?

Like this know that? I suspect it isn't the "planing" but merely working harder.Which side you are of the optimum is of importance obviously whether in a star (orange) or a hobie 16 (blue)

image.png.ebb4f4e82d2a9a662474ba967620acce.png

btw these are fictional curves

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/28/2021 at 10:02 PM, Bruce Hudson said:

For example, surfing is a type of exceeding hull speed (planing), and on rare occasions I have surfed while going to windward.

Hop on a nice boat wake, bare off a smidge, (because the apparent wind swings forward with the boat speed boost) and you'll surf that set of waves while going upwind.  To Bruce's point, it doesn't happen often but when it does it's cool!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Hop on a nice boat wake, bare off a smidge, (because the apparent wind swings forward with the boat speed boost) and you'll surf that set of waves while going upwind.  To Bruce's point, it doesn't happen often but when it does it's cool!

Oh yeah. I remember the New England Laser Masters at Third Beach Newport in 2005, which is where a long narrow bay (know as the Sakonnet River) opens up to Rhode Island Sound.

A passing hurricane out at sea had generated some huge swells that were rolling up the bay from the south. But the wind was from the north at 20 knots plus. .Beating on starboard tack, the waves were running in roughly the same direction as we were sailing so on the upwind side of the wave you could actually catch a long ride down the front of the wave and surf your way upwind.

But surfing is not planing.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, tillerman said:

But surfing is not planing.

You can plane without surfing, and surf without planing. :) :)

But the surfing I was talking about, was planing.

There sure are a lot of surfers who talk about their boards being either a planing board or a displacement board. :)

"Displacement Hulls" http://www.surfscience.com/topics/surfboard-anatomy/bottom-contour/displacement-hulls

Link to post
Share on other sites

When is surfing planing?

Consider a surfer on a 'sinker' surfboard that normally doesn't have enough buoyancy to support the weight of a surfer. When there is enough forward motion, the surfboard skims down the face of the wave, and since the force is provided by gravity, the surfer is surfing as well as planing.

The same forces apply to any planing hull (including a Laser/ILCA) when on a wave - and when that hull exceeds its hull speed, it is planing. 

When is surfing not planing?

With a Hobie 16 (or other non planing hull) surfs down a wave, they may dramatically increase their boat speed, but they are surfing not planing.

(Nothing to do with pigs flying).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I guarranty nobody can ever sail a laser for upwind vmg with dynamic lift supporting more than a small percentage of the mass.

I also guaranty that nobody can sail one on upwind vmg at greater than 2 times wave speed (2 x 0.4 = Froude number 0.8

So, ffs this is silly but hey, when I was 12 I saw photos of light displacement ocean racers leapomg through waves and imagined them going 20 knots, hahaha.

We didnt havr youtube or internet cranks. He a kid can dream, right?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

When really overpowered in the laser, best practice, if you can pull it off,  is to raise the board 1"-2", ease the main and bear off as much as you need to keep the boat flat and the tell tales happy. It's quite difficult to get right and I wouldn't say I'm good at it, but in my experience it is faster than pinching, especially if there's much chop. I think I'm probably too light to get on a plane doing this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a talented big guy in good shape (eg - olympian) could make it happen in 20-25+.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, WillyT123 said:

When really overpowered in the laser, best practice, if you can pull it off,  is to raise the board 1"-2", ease the main and bear off as much as you need to keep the boat flat and the tell tales happy. It's quite difficult to get right and I wouldn't say I'm good at it, but in my experience it is faster than pinching, especially if there's much chop. I think I'm probably too light to get on a plane doing this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a talented big guy in good shape (eg - olympian) could make it happen in 20-25+.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2017/04/11/put-your-bow-down-the-hardest-technique-in-laser-sailing/

No mention of planing here.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Some people do not understand physics. Planing to windward in a laser. Haha. HAHA. HAHAHA!  HAHAHAHAHA!

(Heck--even a 505 doesn't *actually* plane to windward unless you get over 10 knots! )

Boats that routinely plane to windward--in the strictest sense of the term "planing" (in excess of 2 times wave speed, majority of support due to lift not hydrostatics) is very short. The Australian 18 actually does it. 14 knots on 18 feet is actually bona fide planing. Other skiffs too.  Catamarans do the same or even better against wave speed but do not lift. But who really cares about that?

I just think this whole thread is adorable. I want to hug it.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Tasars can plane upwind. That means speed above hull speed wave breaking well behind the bow. Board up. Pointing at the same upwind angle.

Lasers will not do that. Even if you get planing on a tight reach and slowing keep turning upwind. The hull is not light or great hydrodynamically. 

Lasers are a fun boat. Not a great boat design or build.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

I thought that was J24s

FB- Doug

I thought it was the J22 that also sunk like a stone.  J24s too?  Do both leave bruises after hiking or is that just a J22 thing?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Wess said:

I thought it was the J22 that also sunk like a stone.  J24s too?  Do both leave bruises after hiking or is that just a J22 thing?

Yes, yes, Thistles, and no

FB- Doug

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...