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Single sailing with a 60ft yacht


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Hey guys
Let's talk single sailing with a 60ft yacht. What makes the boat a perfect single sailing cruiser for you? I have these key points
- maximum control from the inside. 360 view from saloon, cameras, etc
- easy maneuvering (hoisting and dropping sails, reefing, tacking and jibing, mooring). This includes furlers for everything, electric and hydraulic systems, mooring winch, last generation bow thrusters. 
- reliability, provided by overpowered systems, of good brands, with redundancy
- Plan B for possible emergencies, like manual furling backup
- security, provided by closed cockpit but with easy moving around the deck with high bulwarks (not so much a specific of solo sailing, but important for anybody who spends more days in the sea than onshore)
- easy access for maintenance everywhere. Large engine room, some workshop, etc

With this in mind, we started a custom project: the Ice 62 Targa. Any ideas what can be missed? Thank you!

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Lots of nice features the make it singlehandable.  But I've always said that it's not what happens when everything is good, but what happens when everything goes wrong.   So what happens to the boat/skipper when one of the electric winches breaks?  Or when all power is lost?  Or when the halyard breaks and the whole jib ends up on the drink?   I'd be very interested in these kinds of considerations.

 

And why are there 3 cabins and 2 heads?  Who's going to clean those?

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Guys, I understand your skepticism. Some time ago I would say the same thing.

As all comments are similar, I will reply all together. 

 

Concerning maintenance, it’s not that dramatic. You need to follow some rules like: anything you repair should be done for years, do maintenance in time, buy nautical material of high quality. How sailor repair things solo? - If you spend more days in the water then onshore you have to know how to repair things, there is no other way. And have a lot of spare parts, there is nothing new in it. The cleaning is not that difficult neither. Anyway, nobody says about making maintenance solo ;).

 

Emergency situations, this is a good point and that’s what we discussed for several months every day. As true for any short-handed sailing in my opinion, the point is to avoid them. Your sails will never fall down if you change halyard in time and make revision of your material regularly, as any ocean sailor. Energy, don’t use cheap lithium and change batteries in time and if it was mounted correctly it will work. Systems fail time to time, for this you need redundancy and spare parts. In case of urgency you have an option to furl sails manualy as Plan B and you also can trim sails by winch handle. Also you can pump lifting keel manually. Basically everything is designed to have emergency solution. Of course till some point. It is not IMOCA 60 and usually we don’t change rudders on the water as Pip Hare ;).

 

Foolish, what do you think, what other kind of situation you consider as difficult to manage solo on 60ft?

 

Hdra, depands on what you mean by “work for the builder”. I do mix passion with a work. I’m not contracted by any of boat builders but i sell boats and now build one ICE and one NEO. Also work with Italia yachts and follow vismara and milius. And also I sail and race as much as i can every week, mostly double hand, sometimes solo, on all types of boats from dinghy (foiling cat Whisper and mono MX Next) to TP52 (not series) and cruising boats 30-62ft. Here I talk as sailor to sailor, I would like to hear an opinion of comunity as we still have a time to add or change something

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Sail changes on a boat singlehanded like that will be a PIA for a solo sailor.

Considering the current target demographics that boat has - she will require hired young backs to help ready to leave port and sorting it out upon return. Perhaps the OP could call her Cha-Ching due her sailing ATM dispensing cash and credit characteristics once launched.

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2 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

And I'd guess this is the guy who calls ahead for help docking.

Interesting point :)
Where I live there is no shame in calling mariners to help with lines, especially if you short handed. It is not such a question of your ability, more like a good seamanship, here is no lack of mariners usually. Why taking unnecessary risks. As I see in your place people take it as competition.

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13 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

Sail changes on a boat singlehanded like that will be a PIA for a solo sailor.

Considering the current target demographics that boat has - she will require hired young backs to help ready to leave port and sorting it out upon return. Perhaps the OP could call her Cha-Ching due her sailing ATM dispensing cash and credit characteristics once launched.

Really not at all. I prepare 62ft for going to sail solo (prepare solo, we sail double handed on 62) several time a month. From zero it takes 40 min with taking off covers hoisting gennaker and mounting sheets and putting a beer in a fridge. Not such a big deal! After sailing, it takes a bit more time.. 
Again, things are much easier than looks like

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41 minutes ago, BarnaBarca said:

Really not at all. I prepare 62ft for going to sail solo (prepare solo, we sail double handed on 62) several time a month. From zero it takes 40 min with taking off covers hoisting gennaker and mounting sheets and putting a beer in a fridge. Not such a big deal! After sailing, it takes a bit more time.. 
Again, things are much easier than looks like

How old are you? Most folks who would think about buying that boat would be over 60. Most self funded solo cruisers/racers are between 55 and 70. I know that most people that age and beyond struggle lifting sails in and out of cabin with boats over 40 feet.

A novice could daysail that boat without much of a learning curve, stocking the fridge with beer no problem. Making it easier to fix shit that breaks, easing trouble shooting complex electrical systems, and even making sail changes a breeze for solo cruisers that do distance and can handle changes due to weather should be the ideals for that recognized demographic, more valuable than adding farkles and tech. 

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2 hours ago, BarnaBarca said:

Interesting point :)
Where I live there is no shame in calling mariners to help with lines, especially if you short handed. It is not such a question of your ability, more like a good seamanship, here is no lack of mariners usually. Why taking unnecessary risks. As I see in your place people take it as competition.

No one I know  minds lending a hand but you're arguing for a solo experience so ... the real question is can you handle the boat by yourself? I'd say no.

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There's no shame in asking for help with tying up the lines, but I wouldn't want to singlehand any boat that I wasn't confident that I could do it solo if required. 

Being in my early thirties puts me at probably the lower end of people on SA and probably half the age of anyone who could afford a boat like that and I'd not fancy regularly trying to get that thing on & off the dock single handed. Sure its possible, but not ideal. 

For racing solo I think 30-35 foot is the sweet spot for me, if I was going off cruising solo then probably something slightly bigger. 

I mean it all depends on what you want to do and where you want to go, a lot of your requirements like inside 360 view from the cabin, giant bulwarks and closed cockpits aren't really required for the type of sailing I'd say most of us do. 

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From the marketing point of view, I think the real competition in this niche is going to be from secondhand Deerfoots and Hunter HC50s, etc. With sailboats, you always have to give a very good reason to buy a new vs. used. 

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Cool to read it all, thanks to these comments, I am once again convinced that we are doing something new. I couldn't imagine this too and 10 years ago was telling that 43ft is a limit for a comfortable sailing. Although I would like some more technical discussions instead of analyzing the yacht market ;)

Black Jack, if you ask, I´m 40, guy I foil with is 63, and he can buy not a boat but a yard. Guy we sail on  ICE 62 double handed is around 60. The other guy I sail with, he is also around 60, and he makes doublehand races on his TP 52, this is a bit crazy, here I would agree =).  But it all doesn't matter, there is no sense in lifting sail from the cabin in 60ft cruiser. If you do it than you are on a Shipman or IMOCA. I would say you, I found it much more  effortless sailing 60ft than 40-43ft just because you move comfortable. And this is even taking in account that I prefer to lift sails by hand from the mast, for the rope twisting reason

Blue Crab, how difficult it to moor a boat depends more on how easy the boat is to steer. To moor X6.4 or Swan 65 or ICE 62 is just a little easier than Bavaria 40, although it can be more scarry. And new Side Power with power control and hold function is just fantastic to give you some minutes for lines

Midday Gun, racing small boats is more fun, I would agree 100% on this. ICE 62 Targa itself is not a daysailor as you can see. It is designed to live onboard for a long period. But I also wouldn't agree that 360 view for solo day sailing is not necessary. If you are along, with some other boats around, and you have to go down it's better you can see from inside what happens. About a closed cockpit, for me personally it's unnecessary neither.

Spankoka, have you ever wondered where used boats come from? Sorry, joke, of course you are right, in most cases. About Deerfoots and Hunter HC50, try to find one in Med ;)

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The article is an unserious puff-piece. I don't see anything in this design that lends itself to singlehanding. It looks like any other Euro-cruising boat. I have a few solo miles on a 50 footer and there is nothing here that interests me. Naivete run amuck. 

 

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hi Slug. Hardtop connects with the deck by spray hood ofcourse. I’ll send render from home later. but it’s simple.

hi Ron. So, what would you like to have on solo sailing 60ft-r. This is exactly what i was asking about 

6 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Where is this innovative pilot house with 360 visibility ?? 

I see no “crew on watch”  weather protection

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First thing after I reach 55 along with the purchase of a new, basic 60 foot powered-puff solo-sailer with farkeling complicated bolt-ons is connecting with an on standby, hot, cardiovascular specialist just in case I need around-the-cock monitoring due to the stress of waiting for other's help and services to arrive.  That and a good collapsible sunshade at dockside as we wait for the 4 man rigging team to clear the jammed sailcloth and knotted line while tucked in a grubby, oily corner by the fuel dock in St. Tropez.

Screen Shot 2021-06-03 at 8.32.42 AM.png

 

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16 hours ago, BarnaBarca said:

 

Midday Gun, racing small boats is more fun, I would agree 100% on this. ICE 62 Targa itself is not a daysailor as you can see. It is designed to live onboard for a long period. But I also wouldn't agree that 360 view for solo day sailing is not necessary. If you are along, with some other boats around, and you have to go down it's better you can see from inside what happens. About a closed cockpit, for me personally it's unnecessary neither.

 

I mean its not necessary full stop day sailing or not. Done plenty of miles solo not just in some busy areas. But it is nice to have. 

Its 60 feet thing I don't get, as a solo sailor what advantage are you really getting over something in the mid-40s? 
I saw the video of Pete Goss giving a tour of his Garcia 45, that looked an ideal boat for this kind of thing. 


 

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7 hours ago, BarnaBarca said:

hi Ron. So, what would you like to have on solo sailing 60ft-r. This is exactly what i was asking about 

A boat is a tool for a job. What is the job here? Coastal cruising? Live aboard? Why 60 feet? Fast? Get an Outremer. High latitudes? García or Boreal.  Day sailor? One of these:

I met a guy who singlehanded his Beneslow 60 up to Alaska. He came back and said he wished he had gotten a metal boat.

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28 minutes ago, Ron Swanson said:

A boat is a tool for a job. What is the job here? Coastal cruising? Live aboard? Why 60 feet? Fast? Get an Outremer. High latitudes? García or Boreal.  Day sailor? One of these:

I met a guy who singlehanded his Beneslow 60 up to Alaska. He came back and said he wished he had gotten a metal boat.

A 60 footer , traveling at reduced speed ,  can cover the same miles as a 40 footer sailed at full speed 

pushing a boat hard , fulll speed , breaks gear and crew 

 

short handed passage making is all about  miles covered in a favorable weather pattern , crew fatigue and boat reliability 

unfortunately nothing in the design appeals to short handed passage making 

the boat pictured is s daysailer  

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45 minutes ago, Ron Swanson said:

A boat is a tool for a job. What is the job here? Coastal cruising? Live aboard? Why 60 feet? Fast? Get an Outremer. High latitudes? García or Boreal.  Day sailor? One of these:

I met a guy who singlehanded his Beneslow 60 up to Alaska. He came back and said he wished he had gotten a metal boat.

The piston hank headsail is a nice detail on the Wally 

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People that buy new 60 foot boats are usually daysailors and not passage makers. Very few who has spent time a lifetime making money and getting influence are going extended cruising. There is no better public notice that one makes when they buy a large sailboat and claim they to want spend years crusing as it means either one is out of the game or now retired.

Folks I know that are uber successful find it far better to hire a crew and meet the boat places for shorter legs to places or races. When they arrive to a destination port they may host a lunch but stay with friends, in hotels or rent villas for weeks rather than spend that time on a boat with limited space. 

https://www.sttropezhouse.com/

Screen Shot 2021-06-03 at 4.51.14 PM.png

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4 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

People that buy new 60 foot boats are usually daysailors and not passage makers. Very few who has spent time a lifetime making money and getting influence are going extended cruising. There is no better public notice that one makes when they buy a large sailboat and claim they to want spend years crusing as it means either one is out of the game or now retired.

Folks I know that are uber successful find it far better to hire a crew and meet the boat places for shorter legs to places or races. When they arrive to a destination port they may host a lunch but stay with friends, in hotels or rent villas for weeks rather than spend that time on a boat with limited space. 

https://www.sttropezhouse.com/

Screen Shot 2021-06-03 at 4.51.14 PM.png

St tropez to port cervo  is a passage 

 

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16 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

St tropez to port cervo  is a passage 

 

The owner also may join the delivery crew in Malta as they pick up the boat registry and new citizenship at the same time. A 60 foot boat might be a little cramped but tolerable.  

Screen Shot 2021-06-03 at 5.15.15 PM.png

Screen Shot 2021-06-03 at 5.22.23 PM.png

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Now I see, everybody here sails around the world and only change roaring 40th for the northwest passage on mondays, to have more fun! :D

Consider, that between daysailor and exploration boat is a hell of concepts. Try one day to sail garcia 45 in Med. Pete Goss didn’t told in his interveiw that Displacement/LOA rate is 160 vs 112 of old and heavy Dufour 44 for example, i even don’t talk about modern italian cruisers with a carbon in the hull. Upwind sailarea/displacement race is ridiculous for Med 15.3 vs 24 of Dufour. I don’t remember any boat with less then 21 that can sail here. So don’t forget to check diesel when you are not in roarings ;).

 

Ron, agree with you, boat is a tool for a job. This one is basically for a long cruises in Med, Caribbean campaign... ofcourse it can make nice aroundtheworld but in med it is the best

 

Slug, i have a sensation that you are very radical ;) i can give you some reasons why this boat is not a classic daysailor, and this is why we had to go custom. Nobody will hide from the sun on a daysailor. You don’t look for a big autonomy on daysailor. It’s extra price and weight. You are not building a boat around big dinghy if you are not up to use it very often. I can continue, but give me one counterargument. Only because it is not ugly? :)

One thing i told here earlier and would like to repeat because it is counterintuitively and you mentioned fatigue. I sail all sizes of boats, and on 60ft i’m less tired than on 40ft. And much less than on J80/70!

 

It’s curious that so many comments are about « guys who can afford 60ft don’t sail.. live in hotels.. » It’s more interesting to discuss boats than owners, or i’m not right? ;)

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14 minutes ago, BarnaBarca said:

You don’t look for a big autonomy on daysailor.

Posters here are a lot more interested in big geography and Danish cookies.

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11 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Posters here are a lot more interested in big geography and Danish cookies.

Ja, It’s true, i see it :D:D i’m in forum here from around 2010 and always was about to look here for fast boats issues and in cruiser’s forum for Garcia things :) .
 

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41 minutes ago, BarnaBarca said:

It’s curious that so many comments are about « guys who can afford 60ft don’t sail.. live in hotels.. » It’s more interesting to discuss boats than owners, or i’m not right? ;)

You might want to take some time to read through some of the other threads on this subforum, and then ask yourself if your posting is drumming up new customers or doing irreparable damage to your brand.

Of the ten most recent threads, the two biggest are about boats under $25k and the benefits of hanks over furlers. The thread on fast boats with standing headroom may be closer to what you are trying to accomplish.

 

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2 minutes ago, apophenia said:

You might want to take some time to read through some of the other threads on this subforum, and then ask yourself if your posting is drumming up new customers or doing irreparable damage to your brand.

Of the ten most recent threads, the two biggest are about boats under $25k and the benefits of hanks over furlers. The thread on fast boats with standing headroom may be closer to what you are trying to accomplish.

 

Hi apophenia :) It’s misunderstanding. It’s not my brand and the last thing i would do is to try selling a boat on a forum. 
we are talking boats and enjoy

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It is also worth reading through the Seascape 27 thread over in the main subforum. Although it wasn't started by Seascape (AFAIK), comments and reactions are generally positive. The thread is a useful resource for anyone interested in a Seascape / First 27, nearly a decade later.

 

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Apophenia, in contrary, I enjoy conversation, it’s interesting to see the way of discussion. Maybe i would like it more tecnical, like it was in some comments in the beggining of the thread, but the world is not ideal ;). 
The question is, if you don’t like big boats why did you opened the thread, there is a size in the topic ;)

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1 hour ago, BarnaBarca said:

The question is, if you don’t like big boats why did you opened the thread, there is a size in the topic ;)

Thread wasn't about liking big boats. The bait was "single sailing" a big boat.

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1 hour ago, BarnaBarca said:

Apophenia, in contrary, I enjoy conversation, it’s interesting to see the way of discussion. Maybe i would like it more tecnical, like it was in some comments in the beggining of the thread, but the world is not ideal ;). 
The question is, if you don’t like big boats why did you opened the thread, there is a size in the topic ;)

So do you want to talk about the technical aspects or the the practical aspects in this thread? Most experienced solo and short handed sailors are practical folks when it comes to boat selection. some of our most revered and talked about sailors of our current and pass eras come from a tradition of self reliance and practicality.  They are not wrapped up on ego or making a statement of personal wealth or status. Speed is fourth only to comfort, ease of sail and personal management of the boat.

You are right - a larger boat does have usually carry increased waterline and space. those choices though nice are not often material to making a decision based on that criteria. As I reflect over all the boats and sailors I known that are sailed shorthanded over the world - nearly all will admit they are daysailors first and over time only 5 percent total distance sailed on their bottom over the ground occur doing overnights or extended cruising in a lifetime of use of their vessels. Yeah, there are outliers but very few of them and they tend to be loners.  As a practical solo shorthanded experienced sailor, I find a 8.5 to 13 meter well founded and simple sailing vessels are best. In my own life, I really only do a series of day runs when I cruise from place to place and do only an occasional overnight when forced by distance or weather windows to cover ground.  I like staying at docks when I am cruising and think dinghy management is a drag. In my upcoming bucket list of sailing adventures that include a trans Atlantic shorthanded loop, Bermuda race, Mediterranean day port hopping and other challenges, I have a choice to pick any boat I would like to use. I still want will go with a tested, stiff 10 meter boat that carries 85 percent of the speed your new sailer. I find not only is sail management is easier, I can repair most things that break with small toolbox i carry, find it easier to climb the rig, can always manage to stuff in haul outs space during busy yard times, easily dive the bottom with a mask and snorkel to clean or unfoul without a tank but more significant to my lifestyle able to find dock space to tuck it away nearly anywhere I go.  It is in the port and the people that I meet that I find the real value of boat ownership and use.

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Black Jack, sure, It’s understandable, big boat big problems, you tools and spare parts boxes are way bigger.  If you have no love for big size you just don’t have it, it will be only a problem, end of story. 

My wife doesn’s see any romantic in sailing at all and you can not beat her arguments, It’s not practical time spending. Everything you can do more comfortable onshore: read, paint, sign, calculate.. sailing just has no sense for her, it’s only a problem. Same here

People love sailing big boats for many reasons, first because they able, then its just impressive, then it’s even more about perfection as tolerance for the mistake is much smaller in all senses, this is a challenge as many things in sailing. Probably no one is going for big size only for dinghy garage but many people don’t buy 10yo boats just because they don’t have it and i’m on the same line. And still you can easily jump onboard, drop lines and go without a crew. 

 

For the race for overall result more than 50-52 not a good choice for sure, and smaller boat can benefit well in a lack of wind.

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1 hour ago, BarnaBarca said:

Black Jack, sure, It’s understandable, big boat big problems, My tool and spare parts boxes are way bigger than yours.  If you have no love for my big size, you just don’t have it, it will be only a problem if I rear end you, end of story. 

My wife doesn't see any romantic in sailing at all and you can not beat her arguments, It’s not practical time spending. Everything you can do more comfortable onshore: read, paint, sign, calculate.. sailing just has no sense for her, it’s only a problem. Same here but thank goodness the hunky pool boy is there to manage the back of the house and tidy lawn.

I love people who own sailing big boats for many reasons, first because they able, then its just impressive, then it’s even more about perfection of image rather than the mistake of seeming smaller in all senses. this is a challenge as many things in other than sailing. Probably not everyone is going to buy for big size. Most rich people don’t want buy 10yo boats as it does not impress others that matter and thats not what I want either. Sure you can easily jump onboard an older small boat that many have already seen, drop lines and go without a crew but who really notices?

In the end, I want be on a big new sailing yacht - I can not lie.

 

Fixed. :)

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There are about as many missions for short handed sailing as there are for sailing with a full crew. Most of the naysayers on this thread are coming from the long distance cruising end of the spectrum. For me, short handed sailing is about sail handling around a race course with buoys and windward/leeward work or day sailing around the islands about ten miles off my coast.  What works for me won’t please the long distance guys and definitely vice versa. That doesn’t make either of us wrong. The OP has a different mission in mind and it remains to be seen if he’s onto something that will resonate with a significant segment of the short handed community but let’s offer constructive technical comment and let him worry about the other stuff. We have common challenges when we venture out single handed or with short crew so we can all benefit from hearing ideas here even if Med cruising isn’t our plan. 

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13 hours ago, kinardly said:

There are about as many missions for short handed sailing as there are for sailing with a full crew. Most of the naysayers on this thread are coming from the long distance cruising end of the spectrum. For me, short handed sailing is about sail handling around a race course with buoys and windward/leeward work or day sailing around the islands about ten miles off my coast.  What works for me won’t please the long distance guys and definitely vice versa. That doesn’t make either of us wrong. The OP has a different mission in mind and it remains to be seen if he’s onto something that will resonate with a significant segment of the short handed community but let’s offer constructive technical comment and let him worry about the other stuff. We have common challenges when we venture out single handed or with short crew so we can all benefit from hearing ideas here even if Med cruising isn’t our plan. 

Getting on and off the dock is a practical  issue for short handers 

i see nothing in the proposed ICE  60 footer  that makes going  stern at Club Nautico easy for the short hander 

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I am also slightly sceptical to idea of shorthanding 60 footer for fun. I can understand allure of IMOCA, but even that is way too far for me.

As to this ICE 62 targa, I got curios enough to check manufacturers web site. Couple notes what I observed there:

- Boat has apparently two retractable and presumably azimuthing propulsors. This helps docking when those work. Very easy to have even function that keeps boat on spot.

- In general there has been lot of thought on various systems that may help operation when functioning.

- What is supprising to me (or not so much considering all the systems onboard), is the displacement being 19 tons. Not exactly light 62 footer.

I.e. Technology can help with many issues that size brings, but key question is that how easy it is to keep all those systems functional? Professional help most likely needed and then again those that can afford this boat can afford to have high quality maintenance crew to take care of boat. The big potential issue is that how custom those systems are and thus how many latent issues there are? Would recommend very thorough shakedown program before heading solo out.

Then there is displacement. I still assume that is not light weight, but with tanks full and loads of other cruising stuff. Still that should end some where over 15 tons for just boat?

Should I be looking something for cruisin in med, I would rather be looking something less complex, smaller and lighter lwl/displ. Lwl helps when going upwind, but light boat can be faster on more open angles. Simplicity is the key in my books.

Oh well, not really something I need to contemplate too much. Sure there are still enough people who are more of target group for the boat. Though I can still try to be open minded and here what might be solutions to issues brought up by various people. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, mikkom said:

I am also slightly sceptical to idea of shorthanding 60 footer for fun. I can understand allure of IMOCA, but even that is way too far for me.

As to this ICE 62 targa, I got curios enough to check manufacturers web site. Couple notes what I observed there:

- Boat has apparently two retractable and presumably azimuthing propulsors. This helps docking when those work. Very easy to have even function that keeps boat on spot.

- In general there has been lot of thought on various systems that may help operation when functioning.

- What is supprising to me (or not so much considering all the systems onboard), is the displacement being 19 tons. Not exactly light 62 footer.

I.e. Technology can help with many issues that size brings, but key question is that how easy it is to keep all those systems functional? Professional help most likely needed and then again those that can afford this boat can afford to have high quality maintenance crew to take care of boat. The big potential issue is that how custom those systems are and thus how many latent issues there are? Would recommend very thorough shakedown program before heading solo out.

Then there is displacement. I still assume that is not light weight, but with tanks full and loads of other cruising stuff. Still that should end some where over 15 tons for just boat?

Should I be looking something for cruisin in med, I would rather be looking something less complex, smaller and lighter lwl/displ. Lwl helps when going upwind, but light boat can be faster on more open angles. Simplicity is the key in my books.

Oh well, not really something I need to contemplate too much. Sure there are still enough people who are more of target group for the boat. Though I can still try to be open minded and here what might be solutions to issues brought up by various people. 

 

 

As you implied: It is not the length, it is the displacement. For me the stability that length provides makes all the difference. At 60+ feet maneuvering in the typical marina becomes daunting. That is the only thing that I sweat over. Not so much me and mine, but other people's boats.

Nothing about longer length requires the typically seen explosion in complexity. With the possible exception of hydraulics. That is a mixed blessing. A shorthanded boat should not have separate cabins, multiple heads, nor a dozen upholstered places to sit. Resist adding gizmos.

 

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31 minutes ago, mikkom said:

I am also slightly sceptical to idea of shorthanding 60 footer for fun. I can understand allure of IMOCA, but even that is way too far for me.

As to this ICE 62 targa, I got curios enough to check manufacturers web site. Couple notes what I observed there:

- Boat has apparently two retractable and presumably azimuthing propulsors. This helps docking when those work. Very easy to have even function that keeps boat on spot.

- In general there has been lot of thought on various systems that may help operation when functioning.

- What is supprising to me (or not so much considering all the systems onboard), is the displacement being 19 tons. Not exactly light 62 footer.

I.e. Technology can help with many issues that size brings, but key question is that how easy it is to keep all those systems functional? Professional help most likely needed and then again those that can afford this boat can afford to have high quality maintenance crew to take care of boat. The big potential issue is that how custom those systems are and thus how many latent issues there are? Would recommend very thorough shakedown program before heading solo out.

Then there is displacement. I still assume that is not light weight, but with tanks full and loads of other cruising stuff. Still that should end some where over 15 tons for just boat?

Should I be looking something for cruisin in med, I would rather be looking something less complex, smaller and lighter lwl/displ. Lwl helps when going upwind, but light boat can be faster on more open angles. Simplicity is the key in my books.

Oh well, not really something I need to contemplate too much. Sure there are still enough people who are more of target group for the boat. Though I can still try to be open minded and here what might be solutions to issues brought up by various people. 

 

 

In the Med  berths are expensive and hard to find for a 60 footer 

stay around the 40  ft size ..with no more than 2,5 meter draft and things open up 

for stern too  mooring choose an open transom .. much easier when faced with a floating dock 

thrusters and all that crap are nice buy you must still handle the mooring tail 

big fairleeds  and cleats at the stem , with stern lines led to sheet winches that can be handled by the helmsman 

stay away from over stylized stuff with beveled sheer clamps and junk permanently poking out of the bow 

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4092CFE0-3E5F-4E3D-AC7C-073D73307684.jpegA nice 60’ unstayed catboat?  Probably too late for that. There is a pic of Ocean Planet off the coast of Oregon on a reach planing like a dinghy- just one sail, one sailor. this one is similar to OP.

Nice.

I think I get what you’re doing- a bigger boat is more comfortable if it’s something you can handle, and systems can enable that, but they add complexity.  If you like complexity, and can keep ahead of it. that’s cool, some folks do. Pilots, for example.  Keep us in the loop- I’d like to see what you come up with, and how it works!

Custom boats are labors of love, and a bit of madness, having done it myself.  Unfortunately, what seems obvious to you when you build your dream isn’t always obvious to others.  We built a light, fast & simple 40’. And we still endure ridicule for the lack of systems 20 years later.  Go figure.  
 

Onward!

 

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Fuck me what a shitshow, this thread would be improved if the entire chinese army crapped in porta potties then turned them upside on top of it. Barnabarna, you can fuck right off for a start, you aint building that vapourware abortion and as sure as all that chinese creamy crap flowing all over SA, you aint ever going to sail in it.

To the rest of you inmates, cant you recognise another case of munchausen boat building by proxy?

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5 hours ago, Caecilian said:

Fuck me what a shitshow, this thread would be improved if the entire chinese army crapped in porta potties then turned them upside on top of it. Barnabarna, you can fuck right off for a start, you aint building that vapourware abortion and as sure as all that chinese creamy crap flowing all over SA, you aint ever going to sail in it.

To the rest of you inmates, cant you recognise another case of munchausen boat building by proxy?

Thing is is, back before COVID, when we could still sail around the Straights  of Georgia, we’d more often than not find ourselves moored near custom SH 60 footers. Anyway, one beautiful August night in the Ganges Marina I was chatting with a nice young couple who were intrigued by Amati, and we got on the subject of how much boat was too much for 2, like coming in and out of a marina berth in frisky weather, and I was opining that a 9600 pound 40er seemed pretty big at times, but the beautiful custom 60er across from us, being sailed by a couple, without a bow thruster, must be a bear in current or over 20 knots of wind to dock. Didn’t realize the owner was reading by the mast and overheard the whole conversation.  Oops.  The next morning it was blowing ~20 or so, and they were going back to Vancouver.  The wind was blowing their boat into the dock, and the owner made a point of leaving the dock without using the bow thruster.  I thought his bow thruster might not be working, so I offered some help, which he declined, since his wife was um, offering him advice that he might hurt his back pushing the boat around. Apparently hurt his back, judging by wifely comments overheard by everybody as they left the marina, although they did get out without scraping anything. Big custom boats….  ‘Munchausen boat building by proxy’ - :lol: - it’s a gift that keeps on giving…

(FWIW, something like a big Tumlaren looks better and better.)

 

 

41A530D7-AD7A-4611-9C15-0708B22F7B5D.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Caecilian said:

Fuck me what a shitshow, this thread would be improved if the entire chinese army crapped in porta potties then turned them upside on top of it. Barnabarna, you can fuck right off for a start, you aint building that vapourware abortion and as sure as all that chinese creamy crap flowing all over SA, you aint ever going to sail in it.

To the rest of you inmates, cant you recognise another case of munchausen boat building by proxy?

Thanks for this much needed scrap of literature. Reassures that we are in SA, not reading a Cruiser's Forum thread. 

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45 minutes ago, Amati said:

(something like a big Tumlaren looks better and better.)

41A530D7-AD7A-4611-9C15-0708B22F7B5D.jpeg

I felt a little stir in my pants. I can either ignore it or go look at boat porn now.

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52 minutes ago, Borracho said:

Thanks for this much needed scrap of literature. Reassures that we are in SA, not reading a Cruiser's Forum thread. 

Just last week the CF mods dissapeared a couple of comments they deemed not nice. Seems I suggested that a Bristol 27 was not in the same blue water category as a swan 61 or some such. 

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Thanks Kinardly for positive thinking!

Slug: Really this boat has 2.4 draft with keel up and there is no problem to find a berth at least in Spain, France and Italy, and the difference in berth price between 50 and 60ft is much less than you will expect, I usually can find private mooring for about 500 eur/month up to 20m. Official prices are about extra 150 eur/month comparing with 50ft. Quite reasonable.
Concerning open transom, it was a wish of client and the next hull can be with or without these benches. From one side I would agree with you, they make it more complicated to move, from the other, if you spend a lot of time sailing you want a comfortable place to sit and have a full control. Sailing necessaries first, docking second, for me it has a sense. 

Cleats and fairleeds on ICE are very comfortable in my opinion. I'll try to attach a photo of previous model. About winches, we moved them for two months altogether and as always in yachting we had to come to a compromise. First we wanted them in the aft close to cleats to use for mooring lines as well. But more important to have a main sheet winch very close to you to have good control of it. Then winches for halyards, spi etc, we want them close to piano in front of wheels. And we still can use main winch for mooring if we want. 
On the bow we also will have Harken mooring winch

Amati: ridicule doesn't matter and change nothing! :) I have a friend - boat builder who is crazy about unusual rig. Junk, Gaff, only staysails.. I don't have this experience, Ice 62 Targa is not a radical boat, just optimized for the solo use and long and fast Med passages. Will keep updated. By the way, is it Amati in the foto? Looks stunning!

Borracho: Interesting about displacement, can I ask you what are you comparing with? Here are some numbers. 
Dipl/LWL rate for: 
Ice 62 Targa - 119
X6.5 “2 MUCH” - 140
Grand Soleil 58 “THE ONE” - 143
Solaris 60 - 138,8
Shipman 63 Coral is a bit lighter for the meter of LWL but it´s full carbon (which imho is not good for cruiser) and quite ascetic inside. Neo 570 will be even lighter and probably this is what you mean, these kind of boats, right? Both are very good, just with other balance of compromises :)
Cabins, WC, all this stuff.. Why not? If you are on new 60´ than you have already spent 1.5-2.5mln, and if only it´s not about sport, why not spend 2,000 on upholstery and go luxury? You have possibility to invite friends or family, maybe they are not crazy about sails and will fill comfortable with some interior. 

Caecilian: About boats that are too big to sail, forget it. There is no any relation between boat length and amount of sailing days it makes. If in marina we have ten 60-feeters and 400 of smaller 25-40 feeters than 1-2 60ft will sail weekly, others just several weeks a year. And 300 small boats will be abandoned, 80 sail for vacations twice a year and maybe 20 will sail all the year in club races or just cruising. 10% of the total amount and it’s maximum. And a lot of small boats without proper maintenance, unfortunately. 
I also noticed that for some reason people who can afford Ice 62 Targa, they very often have good hands, well organized and can make everything themselves if necessary. There is something to think about..
 

 

 

IMG_0768.JPG

whinches.jpg

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Render is just to show actual winch position, in the last modification the deck is slightly rising to the edge, to avoid a water in the cockpit..
I remember I also promised to send a pic of weather protection, here it is

Pages from ICE 60 RAISED SALOON ALT4.jpg

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On 6/2/2021 at 12:02 PM, BarnaBarca said:

Foolish, what do you think, what other kind of situation you consider as difficult to manage solo on 60ft?

As you know from my book (see below) I've given a lot of thought to all aspects of singlehanded sailing and I've been especially adept at finding what can go wrong.  I'm sure I'll be able to find every possible situation if you lend me a boat for the summer.

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This has got to be a troll and I have no idea why I'm biting the bait but here we go:

Even if all of your furlers, winches, jammers, autopilot, 360° thrusters work perfectly in ideal conditions out for a sail you're still just some wanker masturbating in the master cabin of a 60ft boat by yourself.

One single thing goes wrong and you're fucked. Ever pull a big sail out of the ocean? Even if you're physically strong enough you're going to rip all of your finger nails off and become a wanker wishing he could be masturbating in the master cabin of a 60ft boat by yourself.

Before you go repeating about how easy it is put your money where your mouth is and put a video up in 10+kts by yourself on a 60ft boat.

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1 hour ago, climenuts said:

This has got to be a troll and I have no idea why I'm biting the bait but here we go:

Even if all of your furlers, winches, jammers, autopilot, 360° thrusters work perfectly in ideal conditions out for a sail you're still just some wanker masturbating in the master cabin of a 60ft boat by yourself.

One single thing goes wrong and you're fucked. Ever pull a big sail out of the ocean? Even if you're physically strong enough you're going to rip all of your finger nails off and become a wanker wishing he could be masturbating in the master cabin of a 60ft boat by yourself.

Before you go repeating about how easy it is put your money where your mouth is and put a video up in 10+kts by yourself on a 60ft boat.

Thrusters are very vulnerable during  stern too docking  maneuvers and in plastic polluted harbours

 

thrusters require complex , space consuming installations and complex control systems 

 

a simple piece of monofilament fishing line can destroy thruster seals 

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8 hours ago, BarnaBarca said:

Cleats and fairleeds on ICE are very comfortable in my opinion. I'll try to attach a photo of previous model. About winches, we moved them for two months altogether and as always in yachting we had to come to a compromise. First we wanted them in the aft close to cleats to use for mooring lines as well. But more important to have a main sheet winch very close to you to have good control of it. Then winches for halyards, spi etc, we want them close to piano in front of wheels. And we still can use main winch for mooring if we want. 
On the bow we also will have Harken mooring winch

 

whinches.jpg

I wonder if we over-generalise sometimes. On a smaller boat having the winch next to the helm is a good thing. But for the size and complexity of the boat under consideration, should that still apply as a primary consideration?  

I found when solo I used the autohelm a lot, in which case I didn't care so much about winch position near the helm.

With hydraulic/electric winches, I wouldn't care so much about winch position near the helm. You relocate the buttons in that case, not the winch.

 

  

 

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9 hours ago, BarnaBarca said:

Thanks Kinardly for positive thinking!

Slug: Really this boat has 2.4 draft with keel up and there is no problem to find a berth at least in Spain, France and Italy, and the difference in berth price between 50 and 60ft is much less than you will expect, I usually can find private mooring for about 500 eur/month up to 20m. Official prices are about extra 150 eur/month comparing with 50ft. Quite reasonable.
Concerning open transom, it was a wish of client and the next hull can be with or without these benches. From one side I would agree with you, they make it more complicated to move, from the other, if you spend a lot of time sailing you want a comfortable place to sit and have a full control. Sailing necessaries first, docking second, for me it has a sense. 

Cleats and fairleeds on ICE are very comfortable in my opinion. I'll try to attach a photo of previous model. About winches, we moved them for two months altogether and as always in yachting we had to come to a compromise. First we wanted them in the aft close to cleats to use for mooring lines as well. But more important to have a main sheet winch very close to you to have good control of it. Then winches for halyards, spi etc, we want them close to piano in front of wheels. And we still can use main winch for mooring if we want. 
On the bow we also will have Harken mooring winch

Amati: ridicule doesn't matter and change nothing! :) I have a friend - boat builder who is crazy about unusual rig. Junk, Gaff, only staysails.. I don't have this experience, Ice 62 Targa is not a radical boat, just optimized for the solo use and long and fast Med passages. Will keep updated. By the way, is it Amati in the foto? Looks stunning!

Borracho: Interesting about displacement, can I ask you what are you comparing with? Here are some numbers. 
Dipl/LWL rate for: 
Ice 62 Targa - 119
X6.5 “2 MUCH” - 140
Grand Soleil 58 “THE ONE” - 143
Solaris 60 - 138,8
Shipman 63 Coral is a bit lighter for the meter of LWL but it´s full carbon (which imho is not good for cruiser) and quite ascetic inside. Neo 570 will be even lighter and probably this is what you mean, these kind of boats, right? Both are very good, just with other balance of compromises :)
Cabins, WC, all this stuff.. Why not? If you are on new 60´ than you have already spent 1.5-2.5mln, and if only it´s not about sport, why not spend 2,000 on upholstery and go luxury? You have possibility to invite friends or family, maybe they are not crazy about sails and will fill comfortable with some interior. 

Caecilian: About boats that are too big to sail, forget it. There is no any relation between boat length and amount of sailing days it makes. If in marina we have ten 60-feeters and 400 of smaller 25-40 feeters than 1-2 60ft will sail weekly, others just several weeks a year. And 300 small boats will be abandoned, 80 sail for vacations twice a year and maybe 20 will sail all the year in club races or just cruising. 10% of the total amount and it’s maximum. And a lot of small boats without proper maintenance, unfortunately. 
I also noticed that for some reason people who can afford Ice 62 Targa, they very often have good hands, well organized and can make everything themselves if necessary. There is something to think about..
 

 

 

IMG_0768.JPG

whinches.jpg

This is Amati

02873497-61B6-42CD-829F-35E5DA508506.jpeg

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Shaggibaxter: yes, I agree, there are several ways to look at it, again we discussed winch positions for weeks and there was time we wanted to place two of them in the back. Here is my thoughts: i have never sailed with autopilote, able to steer more or less straight in 20kn with some significant Mediterranean waves. No doubts ones on IMOCA can make it, but the price of sensors and computer are around 100K and i have never had it. So in bad weather you are steering by hands, and this is exactly when you want to have control of the main on gusts. 35 or 60 ft are the same when the wind is blowing. And then you have to jibe. Again you need steering and main control. 

About moving buttons, we have only trim button, two directional winches are not reliable yet in my opinion. And easing is more urgent operation, so will not help.

I see, some people are skeptical about sailing on this size in 20-40 knots, but this is not about a boat, this is about these people. We sail in 40kn sometimes, i prefer to avoid it but in lion bay you always have more than in weather prediction and the Ice 62 makes it very well. Thats why finally we decided to have main winches where we have them.

About failing systems and other fuckups. I don’t remember guys on imoca fishing sails. Many other problems but not this. I race with tourists in TP52 sometimes, no furlers, planing 20+kn boat speed, we have never sinked sails. Winches, seriously? Thruster can fail, propellers are fragil, but this is not the end of the world. Furlers as well, we have manual backup for this. Autopilot, it is a problem, it can fail and it’s a headake. On 40’ too. Lets put it like this. Most of the people in Med who sail medium size boats don’t know what to do if their mast will fall. I know because i deal with this. For me they are much more crazy than guy who know how to sail 60 solo.

Who is on watch when you need to sleep? In shorthanded subforum? And it’s me troll?? Ok.. 

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6 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

I wonder if we over-generalise sometimes. On a smaller boat having the winch next to the helm is a good thing. But for the size and complexity of the boat under consideration, should that still apply as a primary consideration?  

I found when solo I used the autohelm a lot, in which case I didn't care so much about winch position near the helm.

With hydraulic/electric winches, I wouldn't care so much about winch position near the helm. You relocate the buttons in that case, not the winch.

 

  

 

Mainsail , foresail and boom preventer control must be in reach  of the helmsman

In addition that ice boat is sloop rigged 

the lesson from the short handers is that multiple sails in the fore triangle make it easy to  control speed and power 

roller boom , full batten , luff tape mainsails are the highest maintenance component on the boat 

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4 hours ago, BarnaBarca said:

Most of the people in Med who sail medium size boats don’t know what to do if their mast will fall. I know because i deal with this. For me they are much more crazy than guy who know how to sail 60 solo.

Think we need to always include the caveat "When things go perfectly."

The number of folks in the world who can do as you suggest while cruising solo would fit in a small room. The number of daysailers with these skills would fill an auditorium. That leaves all the rest to struggle when the mast fails. I usually start with a real cleansing cry.  

 

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