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Looking for a new boat (Soto 40, GP42, what else??)


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I've done some offshore sailing on a Soto 40...

 

https://www.facebook.com/thijssen/videos/10223218551925175/

https://www.facebook.com/thijssen/videos/10223218184515990

 

Bring 2 sets of foulies and prepare to be wet anyways. That said, the boat is fun as hell in 20knts and big waves downwind!

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11 hours ago, notallthere said:

I've done some offshore sailing on a Soto 40...

 

https://www.facebook.com/thijssen/videos/10223218551925175/

https://www.facebook.com/thijssen/videos/10223218184515990

 

Bring 2 sets of foulies and prepare to be wet anyways. That said, the boat is fun as hell in 20knts and big waves downwind!

Do you have an idea how Soto 40 does in light airs and on handicap? I race mainly ORC and often in light stuff, generally lots of upwind in distance races.

KER and Farr 400's are definitely an option as well.

Most important thing is that the new boat rates well against X-41's, Swan 42's, Landmarks etc.

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Soto 40 in light air / flat water is very good.    if there's any bump, the ClubSwan 42 will go better than the Soto and the Farr 400 up until about 8 knots of breeze at which point they both light up.  if there's any reaching component, the Farr 400 is the choice of the three assuming the same PHRF numbers I'm used to (swan @ -9, Soto at -15, Farr at -18).

I bought the Farr 400 due to the trailer ability for storage or travel and the fact I can stand up in it.  It is WAY more comfortable offshore.    I did spend a couple years on Soto 40 hull #1 and it's a perfect wednesday night race boat, but the lack of freeboard means you cant even get close to standing up in it and I once did an entire chicago-mackinac race without going below deck as there is no comfort to be found down there.    

While the Soto and Farr are great race boats, the Swan 42 is a race *yacht* and a known giant-killer under ORC if you look at past results.   If I had to do it over, i'd probably get the Swan 42 cuz it is good at everything and will probably have better resale going forward since it is really a dual purpose machine.    It is / was way more money tho at the time.    ORC is new to the great lakes, so this year it will be interesting to observe what happens between us all !

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Farr 400

On 6/4/2021 at 5:51 PM, 1sailor said:

Soto 40 in light air / flat water is very good.    if there's any bump, the ClubSwan 42 will go better than the Soto and the Farr 400 up until about 8 knots of breeze at which point they both light up.  if there's any reaching component, the Farr 400 is the choice of the three assuming the same PHRF numbers I'm used to (swan @ -9, Soto at -15, Farr at -18).

I bought the Farr 400 due to the trailer ability for storage or travel and the fact I can stand up in it.  It is WAY more comfortable offshore.    I did spend a couple years on Soto 40 hull #1 and it's a perfect wednesday night race boat, but the lack of freeboard means you cant even get close to standing up in it and I once did an entire chicago-mackinac race without going below deck as there is no comfort to be found down there.    

While the Soto and Farr are great race boats, the Swan 42 is a race *yacht* and a known giant-killer under ORC if you look at past results.   If I had to do it over, i'd probably get the Swan 42 cuz it is good at everything and will probably have better resale going forward since it is really a dual purpose machine.    It is / was way more money tho at the time.    ORC is new to the great lakes, so this year it will be interesting to observe what happens between us all !

Thanks for the info.

Farr 400 looks good, has the pedestal driven winches, and better suited for offshore, lifting keel is a bonus. but bit worried about it's ORC rating. CS42 is a nice boat but now I am looking for (or at least thinking about) something that can do 20kts+. Soto would propably need some mods to be coastal offshore capable.

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On 6/3/2021 at 1:13 PM, Itsabimmerthing said:

Thinking about a new boat in 100-150k range. Soto 40 looks nice, thinking something similar to that. Need a boat that is capable of Offshore races and needs to be competitive in ORC. Any ideas?

I've been sailing on a "brand new" (2005-6s) GS42 that was a purebreed back in it's day of late IMS racing. I think it was less than half your budget, so you'd have a lot of money for sails...

 

Not this one, but similar:

Noticias de náutica, información sobre novedades de ...

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On 6/4/2021 at 1:16 AM, notallthere said:

I've done some offshore sailing on a Soto 40...

 

https://www.facebook.com/thijssen/videos/10223218551925175/

https://www.facebook.com/thijssen/videos/10223218184515990

 

Bring 2 sets of foulies and prepare to be wet anyways. That said, the boat is fun as hell in 20knts and big waves downwind!

How watertight is Soto down below? Thinking about the suitability for coastal racing.

Wonder if any of these have been modified/optimized for handicap sailing, maybe smaller main, keel mods, etc?

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It is not at all watertight. It is basically like camping in the rain.

 

This boat has been modified a little. Sea hood added was a huge upgrade. Keel fin was made slightly longer in chord for better upwind performance in a mixed fleet where pointing was a little off in lighter airs. Offshore main is a tiny bit smaller for a rating credit under ORR. 

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8 hours ago, notallthere said:

It is not at all watertight. It is basically like camping in the rain.

 

This boat has been modified a little. Sea hood added was a huge upgrade. Keel fin was made slightly longer in chord for better upwind performance in a mixed fleet where pointing was a little off in lighter airs. Offshore main is a tiny bit smaller for a rating credit under ORR. 

Does it "rain" from the control lines etc. or just the companionway hatch?

I was thinking about those similar mods with the main & keel, possibly rudder as well.

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8 hours ago, jackolantern said:

How about: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/custom-rp-45-3562858/

ask is high but much more boat than the Soto or Farr and much happier offshore. Sistership does well in orc distance racing. 

This one is nice, maybe a bit over budget. Other problem is that the sail budget would go through the roof with this one.

So far the best candidates are Farr 400 and Soto, which I think has potential to be modified to ORC.

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21 hours ago, notallthere said:

It rains from everywhere...

 

That said, I would take it over the Farr 400 every time. It sails more like a big Melges 32 than a small TP-52 in my experience

fair enough....     our F400 has 4 electric bilge pumps, which we dont really use as the boat seems fairly dry after 3 years compared to what I was told to expect.   I will say, one thing in favor of the Farr 400 is the pedestal grinder which is super nice for jibes and hoists.

Do you have an off-site storage option at lower cost than the boat yard ?   that was another thing I liked about the F400 vs. Soto--- they come with a road trailer and any 3/4 ton pickup can pull it.    

Soto is an awesome machine too.   Any of these fast light modern boats are super fun to sail.

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On 6/6/2021 at 8:12 AM, chuso007 said:

I've been sailing on a "brand new" (2005-6s) GS42 that was a purebreed back in it's day of late IMS racing. I think it was less than half your budget, so you'd have a lot of money for sails...

 

Not this one, but similar:

Noticias de náutica, información sobre novedades de ...

This can be a good choice. Looking at last year results in ORC, Swan 45, Swan 42 are the best options. X41 also good. Italia 11.98 made a very good result in European ORC 2021 in May. But all of them are more expansive. 
Instead you can buy Grand Soleil 42r for about 60-70.000 EUR, but it was produced in IOR time and not very stable, make a bulb keel for about 15.000 eur design and keel itself. Add some weight to the bottom. Maybe bowsprit for the coastal races with gennaker courses and for about 130.000 eur you will have a fantastic boat that in my opinion can beat Swan 42 with same teams. But when you will sell it, It will be difficult to sell for any more then 90.000 eur even in a top conditions. So still consider a Swan 42 option..

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I would also recommend the swan 42!   It is about 100k cheaper than a swan 45 and doesn't have all of the teak to worry about.  It also has that nice retractable bow sprit.  The great thing about these boats is that if properly maintained I doubt they will loose any value.  This is because of the premium buyers of used boats puts on the swan brand and the fact that these boats are almost fully depreciated.   But who really knows!  Mine has increased in value quite a bit in the last few years.   Also the swan 42 (and 45) are pretty comfortable at cruising so you would be getting a dual purpose boat but maybe that's a downside for you.  Also because you are in Europe there is a pretty active one design class for these boats and  it seems like most of the swan 42s that used to live in the USA have moved on to Europe.  I must admit I have a little bias because I have a Swan 45 and can't think of another boat I would prefer to own. 

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Thanks for all the comments and ideas.

Now I have a C/R that does well in the ORC, even againt X-41's. Thinking about moving into something bit more faster. The "triumph" of CS42's, X-41's is on a limit to give the ORC rule a (negative) reputation. 

So far my favorite looks wise is Ker40+, but over budget. Suggested GS42R could be made to be a winner, but is not the type I am looking for.

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On 6/3/2021 at 4:13 AM, Itsabimmerthing said:

Thinking about a new boat in 100-150k range. Soto 40 looks nice, thinking something similar to that. Need a boat that is capable of Offshore races and needs to be competitive in ORC. Any ideas?

I don't think they could be had for 150k (maybe) and ORC may not like them but the Figaro 3 ....?

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3 hours ago, Parma said:

I don't think they could be had for 150k (maybe) and ORC may not like them but the Figaro 3 ....?

Figaro 3 is too expensive, Figaro 2 is better and more comfortable for crewed racing but needs a lot of breeze.

What about the Archambault A40 if you want a bit of an interior? https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2007/archambault-a40-rc-3523099/

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  • 2 months later...

Have you thought about going a bit smaller?

The Bolt 37 is the smaller sister to the Ker 40, also Ker design. Seems to rate around 540 GPH, same as the CS 42, but much lighter, much better SA/D.

VERY nice price, too, one currently advertised at 98,000 €.

Looks fun:

3328050004813700_bolt37_bold_1a.JPG

I think it's worth a thought...

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I owned a Soto 40 for a few years.  If you buy it fresh off the circuit you will need to plan on buying all the party sails for distance races.  I bought mine from Palma and it only had W/L sails.  I also put in bunks and strapped down a shitter to meet the rules.  Fast and fun boat.

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17 hours ago, Matagi said:

I think there has been no ORC race where they have done that?

Otoh, Soto rates around 500, 42s around 540, sounds doable in the right conditions.

 

I feel like I"ve been ranting a lot about this lately, the ORC thing being new to us here int eh Great Lakes, I can tell you first hand is quite punitive to boats that are light DSPL for their length in boats that are under 47-50 feet.   Look at your numbers above, the Soto and/ or Farr 400 @ around 500 GPH vs. the Swan at around 540 is a complete joke, the Swan will dominate and there is simply no two ways about it.  

 Farr 400 is an awesome machine and we've really enjoyed our 4 years with it, but I spent a fair amount of time and energy researching mods to make it more ORC friendly, going to PinHead mainsails would help a good amount, but you will never get around the bias toward more R/C types.     There Ker 43 around us (really a Sydney GTS43) is so entirely much faster and better (and way more $) than us despite what the ratings says, that it is absolutely ridiculous.   

If rating is a priority, do your research with the yacht designer of your choice to understand the deltas between farr 400 vs. soto 40 vs. swan vs. _____________.     If a boat owes you time under PHRF and you know how ya compete with them, and then you owe them a load of time under ORC, ask yourself  which one is right.  It is not obvious until you really dig into it.

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2 hours ago, 1sailor said:

I feel like I"ve been ranting a lot about this lately, the ORC thing being new to us here int eh Great Lakes, I can tell you first hand is quite punitive to boats that are light DSPL for their length in boats that are under 47-50 feet.   Look at your numbers above, the Soto and/ or Farr 400 @ around 500 GPH vs. the Swan at around 540 is a complete joke, the Swan will dominate and there is simply no two ways about it.  

 Farr 400 is an awesome machine and we've really enjoyed our 4 years with it, but I spent a fair amount of time and energy researching mods to make it more ORC friendly, going to PinHead mainsails would help a good amount, but you will never get around the bias toward more R/C types.     There Ker 43 around us (really a Sydney GTS43) is so entirely much faster and better (and way more $) than us despite what the ratings says, that it is absolutely ridiculous.   

If rating is a priority, do your research with the yacht designer of your choice to understand the deltas between farr 400 vs. soto 40 vs. swan vs. _____________.     If a boat owes you time under PHRF and you know how ya compete with them, and then you owe them a load of time under ORC, ask yourself  which one is right.  It is not obvious until you really dig into it.

Looking at Canadian "predominantly upwind TOT" and "predominantly Downwind TOT" scratch sheets. Soto would need to be 4:30 faster per hour downwind and 2:40 per hour faster upwind.  Does that sound doable?

 

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On 6/3/2021 at 4:13 AM, Itsabimmerthing said:

Thinking about a new boat in 100-150k range. Soto 40 looks nice, thinking something similar to that. Need a boat that is capable of Offshore races and needs to be competitive in ORC. Any ideas?

Farr 11s could be a thing, offshore might be a bit sporty....

 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2009/farr-11s-2519032/

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The equation is that you try to solve is impossible to be solved.
There is no boat that can rate better than X-41, Swan42 except may be from the new GS44P which can rate equally.
If it was something available they will have discover it.
The consistency of Swan 42 and X-41 to winning ORCi World and European Championships the last 10 years says the presently there is no substitute.
When the condition is right and you are lucky you may win them with something else, but this is will be the exception.
If you can live with this buy what ever you want if you want the silverware buy one of these.

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On 8/25/2021 at 11:04 PM, storosis said:

The equation is that you try to solve is impossible to be solved.
There is no boat that can rate better than X-41, Swan42 except may be from the new GS44P which can rate equally.
If it was something available they will have discover it.
The consistency of Swan 42 and X-41 to winning ORCi World and European Championships the last 10 years says the presently there is no substitute.
When the condition is right and you are lucky you may win them with something else, but this is will be the exception.
If you can live with this buy what ever you want if you want the silverware buy one of these.

Bold statement. Wonder what changes we will see at the ORC ratings next year.

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In the price region you mention and around 40 feet there is not much ... unless the boat is over 15 years old.

And on top, you want inshore and offshore and good ORC rating, and 20+ knot capability.

Whatever you find, please tell me.

I would say that if the boat is really fast, there will be light days and strong wind days in which it will shine, but will not be able to defend in mid-wind days.

The Soto40 is a nice boat, but the one I know of sailed with both bilge pumps on ... plenty of water inside, not just moisture. Also, it is said to flex ... Not designed for offshore, I believe.

I was surprised in mid august when we sailed against a Swan42; amaizing speed (not 20+ sorry) and did well under ORC versus GS46, a couple GS42R, F44.7, Farr45, others less racing oriented. Different price range, I am afraid

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7 hours ago, Mikel_new said:

The Soto40 is a nice boat, but the one I know of sailed with both bilge pumps on ... plenty of water inside, not just moisture. Also, it is said to flex ... Not designed for offshore, I believe.

Flex issues, that's not good to hear. Do you have more details? Or maybe someone else can chime in?

Looking for a new boat with limited budget is hard... ;)

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Yes, it is a challenge ...

Regarding the flex issue, I only sailed with them once. They complained that the boat flexes, not dramatically but somewhat. The Soto is built in glass-fiber for a budget, and inshore oriented.

I believe that the rating could improve changing the PBO shrouds for Nitronic50; the weight difference in a 40 footer would be negligible. Yet I have no clue regarding its ORC rating.

Good luck,

 

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On 8/23/2021 at 12:41 PM, Itsabimmerthing said:

Looking at Canadian "predominantly upwind TOT" and "predominantly Downwind TOT" scratch sheets. Soto would need to be 4:30 faster per hour downwind and 2:40 per hour faster upwind.  Does that sound doable?

 

downwind yes.  upwind in flat water and light air yes, in chop no way, at least not up hill.    up to 9 knots or so the soto and swan are both real strong (but after that the earlier mentioned farr 400 gets rolling  )

I spent a couple summers on a Soto before eventually buying my farr 400 which I sail every week against an incredibly well sailed / well prepared swan 42, I bet the guys on the Swan would corroborate these claims…

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8 hours ago, Itsabimmerthing said:

Does anyone have actual targets for Soto 40? In approx OD config.

4 years ago I was going thru the same exercise that you are now.    I was exiting a Farr 40 and evaluating the same boats you are looking at.  I was skeptical about all these numbers but now, a few years later, a couple observations:

- we didnt sail against the (semi-local) Soto 40 enough times to really conclude much, other than it is very quick in super light

- I fully agree with the below targets that the Swan 42 is just plain faster in pretty much every condition Upwind and further concur with the targets re: the Farr 400 is indeed faster downwind after 10 knots

- I will never understand why the we owed as-much time to the Swan and all those J/boats as we did, it just seems the farr 400 does not get a fair shake at least here on lake michigan.    I"m told that the identical Farr 400 (with the same bow mods) in Annapolis is being rated at -6 compared to my -18.  that would be more fair for sure, and in a downwind  distance race would just simply  be a license to steal

 

image.png.5681c283badd164686b45e3c52d8418a.png

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