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what to use for the tack line


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Zero on a furler, not happy with the amount of stretch my current tack line has since stretch causes the continuous line furler to misbehave.

33' boat, 10,000lbs /  4500kilos MH zero on a sprit

what are you guys (who have a zero on a furler) using? or reccomend?

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On 6/5/2021 at 7:38 AM, SailAnotherDay said:

What core material and size are you currently running?

Is it line stretch or clutch slippage?

It's not slippage through the clutch. 3/8s but uncertain about the core material and sort of irrelevant except to be sure I don't replace it with the same.

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23 hours ago, EWS said:

if it's a short sprit consider a fixed attachment point. If it's more traditional look into going 2:1 with it

Nope, tried that but it was hard to attach / detach. Always seems to be a big mboat wake when I'm kneeling at the bow mussing with stuff. Having it on a tack line & furler makes for simple in & outs of the forward anchor locker.

Always looking to refine the operation: more simple, easier, less to go "wrong" and a less stretchy tack line might be better.

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Unless it's straight dyneema 3/8" isn't big enough I think. Probably will creep.

Either straight dyneema or 7/16" dyeenema core + polyester cover.

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On 6/6/2021 at 12:46 PM, Parma said:

It's not slippage through the clutch. 3/8s but uncertain about the core material and sort of irrelevant except to be sure I don't replace it with the same.

Sta-Set X has a 1 - 2% stretch characteristic, meaning a 20’ length will stretch up to 4.8”. 
High tech cores tend to flatten under load, which is why a proper clutch is important. 
 

A dyneema/poly blend will give you better holding characteristics in an older clutch but you will increase stretch. 

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You want 2:1 so the furler does not twist.  By product of that is you have less tension on the clutch and less stretch.  

Just my 2 cents.

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It's already 2:1. I took a Harken EP block and had a local machine shop modify it because the existing set screw was incapable of resisting the amount of twist induced by the drum & furling line.

The line shown in the photo is NOT the current tack line, having been replaced several years ago.

As it stands now we furl and drop the whole thing into the forward anchor locker, leaving all the lines (sheets, tack & furling line) attached so it can be hauled right back out & up

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On 6/7/2021 at 6:05 PM, SailAnotherDay said:

Sta-Set X has a 1 - 2% stretch characteristic, meaning a 20’ length will stretch up to 4.8”. 
High tech cores tend to flatten under load, which is why a proper clutch is important. 
 

A dyneema/poly blend will give you better holding characteristics in an older clutch but you will increase stretch. 

Good information to have, thanks.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I've been using endura-braid for my tack lines. I don't see a lot of stretch. the code tack line is 2:1, but can be undone to do peels. I've had good luck with this line, fairly easy to splice. dyneema core, polyester cover. comes from 6mm to 14mm. I use 8mm for mine, 8100 lbs tensile strength.

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  • 2 weeks later...

PArma, is that a retractable bowsprit?

How have you set up the Bobstay?

Is it a Bene 34.7/R10 by any chance? If so, what size Zero did you go for?

Cheers!

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So I'm interested in this topic as well.

What was the conclusion here?

I have a rigidly fixed furler and a 1:1 halyard for my Code 0.  It's a 41' boat, so a pretty big sail.  Halyard is 1/2 Sta-set.  I feel like I have to put a lot of tension on it to furl properly, more than I can achieve with it sitting in the clutch (Spinlock XTS).  So I end up putting it on the winch and giving it extra tension prior to furling.

I can't do a 2:1 up top unless I step the mast and put the proper hardware in (pad eye).  So I'm wondering:

1. Is there a better halyard that will stretch less and / or the clutch will grip better

2. I can't change the clutch on the deck as it's part of a 3-pack, so I'd have to swap all three.  Is there a better choice?

3. My Jib halyard has a clutch on the mast.  Should I replicate that for the Code-0?  Then I avoid all the tension through the mast step block and line organizer. 

4. Do I add a 2:1 at the bob-stay and replicate the discussion here?  If so, what size / material and clutch combination?

It's a Code-0 with a UV cover, so I leave it hoisted, so i'm not too worried about it being accessible from the cockpit.

Thanks!!

Simon

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I don't think sta-set is an appropriate halyard or tack line material for a code sail. It's too stretchy, and is reliant on the cover and the core so if the cover chafes at all you've lost a lot of strength. I feel the same about sta-set x. you want something core-dependent like viper or endura-braid or warpspeed or something else that has a dyneema (or similar) core, where the cover is more about chafe resistance than strength.

No need to change out your XTS clutches, but consider the ceramic cam upgrade that you can buy for around $100.

Won't comment on adding a mast clutch. Others will I'm sure.

adding a 2:1 at the bobstay may be a good move, but I don't have a fixed sprit. I can tell you that I tried locking the tack to a fixed point on the sprit and I had trouble getting enough tension with the halyard alone, so our current operation is to hoist the code on the halyard until it's made, then use the 2:1 to get the right tension on the luff. 

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2 hours ago, SimonGH said:

fixed furler and a 1:1 halyard for my Code 0 ...  41' boat... Spinlock XTS

The clutch is your problem. An XTS is undersized for a Code halyard for a boat that size - 10 years ago on 40.7s we used XX powerclutches for genoa and code halyards, these days you'd probably be wanting a constrictor clutch like the Cousin Trestec / Ronstan / Spinlock XTX units (although I have heard mixed review of the Spinlock rope clutch).

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I think the right approach from the info here is:

1. Swap the halyard with something core dependent

2. Mount a Ronstan constrictor clutch on the mast to take the tension instead of the XTS

 

Alternately I could add the lower tack line as a 2:1 and just cleat off the halyard to the mast cleat and get the right tension with the tack, using the ronstan clutch to hold it.  Looking at the owners manual, that seems to be the way Beneteau intended it to be done, as they clearly show a tack line.

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18 hours ago, SimonGH said:

Mount a Ronstan constrictor clutch on the mast

I haven't seen that done; I suspect the issue is the overall length of the clutch including the bungee for the sleeve means you may struggle to fit it all in the space available. 2:1 tack line sounds better but check your other gear is properly specced to cope with the step-up in loads (i.e. sheave box properly riveted into the mast and so on).

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I have a somewhat unconventional idea that i'm going to test this weekend...  involving a 4:1 at the mast base

I had a couple of concerns (perhaps unfounded) regarding the way a tack line would have to run on my boat - I could do the 2:1 at the bobstay (it's fixed), but then i'd need to run the tack line all the way down the side of the boat (via fairleads on the stanchion bases) to a turning block and the aft winch.  So depending on the tension on that tack line, it seemed like having a very long, very tensioned line along the starboard toe rail, or at least until a suitable mounting point for a constrictor clutch.

Ultimately I can achieve sufficient tension to furl properly and get decent luff shape with the current 1:1 halyard.  My biggest concern is that there is excessive stress and tension on the gear to achieve that - there is a turning block at the mast step, then a deck organizer sheave, then the XTS clutch near the cabin top winch.  All of that sits under high loads all the time.  So while adding a tack line at the bobstay will make it easier to get more tension on the line, I still need to react that tension somewhere along the length of the halyard (i.e. it's got to be fixed somewhere), and ideally do it in a way that relieves the stress on the block, organizer and clutch.  In the simplest form, I'd want to tie off the halyard at the mast base (and have it react the load there) rather than have it terminate at the clutch near the winch.

So then I got to thinking - what if I could rig a 4:1 at the mast base between the fixed point and the halyard, and then just run the 4:1 line through the turning block, organizer, clutch, and then tension with the winch...  then the loads would be 25% to achieve the same halyard tension, right?

I was going to test this with some inexpensive climbing hardware (there are some neat high-load double sheaves for relatively low cost).  If it's successful then I've achieved everything necessary with a much simpler system...

I continue to appreciate everyone's excellent advice and experience on this forum.  thanks!

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What happens if the sail drops in the water while the boat is moving / you broach? You would then have a halyard under tension that you wouldn't be able to release without cutting it. With these loose-luffed sails you really want the ability to unload any corner individually if things go wrong.

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20 minutes ago, Snowden said:

What happens if the sail drops in the water while the boat is moving / you broach? You would then have a halyard under tension that you wouldn't be able to release without cutting it. With these loose-luffed sails you really want the ability to unload any corner individually if things go wrong.

good point - so in my concept the 4:1 line would be in the clutch, so as long as that's free running you could simply release that and the halyard tension would unload.  The bitter end of the halyard would still be sufficiently long to allow you to drop the sail completely...

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39 minutes ago, SimonGH said:

good point - so in my concept the 4:1 line would be in the clutch, so as long as that's free running you could simply release that and the halyard tension would unload.  The bitter end of the halyard would still be sufficiently long to allow you to drop the sail completely...

I'm not sure I've understood how your "fixed point" would work but if you are happy that it can be dumped without gear or knots getting sucked into the mast halyard inlet then it sounds like a good idea.

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It would be hugely beneficial to understand the loads i'm trying to deal with.  Does anyone have a methodology / formula to calculate what the halyard tension is?

I obviously know sail size, and would assume a certain wind loading.  I guess I also need to calculate winch handle force to how much "static" tension I'm putting into the system.

The MWL of the furler system is bigger than the rest of the system.  I guess I could just base it on the weakest link in the chain, which is probably the clutch, turning block, or deck organizer.

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this is what i've figured out:

Riggers apprentice, a couple of other tools from Harken, all point towards a similar range of Halyard loads for the C-0 I have (~78m2) at around 2500 lbf (1100kg).

I assume that's "dynamic" loading based on the wind (I used 20kt).

The #40 winch gives a "power factor" of 40.2:1 for low gear.  So does that mean for every lb of force on the handle we get 40 Lbf on the line?

I'm trying to figure out the "static" tension.  That 40:1 seems a lot, since that means if you push with 50 lbs of force, you generate 2000 lbs?  Yet the WLL is around 1750lbs.  That doesn't seem correct.

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For the price/performance, 3/8" Samson Warspeed II is hard to beat.  And if you strip the last 8' or so, it'll run through the 2:1 friction rings a lot easier.   

(Also need to match this with a low-stretch halyard -- I like Robeline 9mm (really 9.5mm) Coppa 5000)

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on the Open50 we have 1:1 (asymmentric) 2:1 (code 0) and 3:1 (free luff J1)  tack lines that run through a fwd ZS jammer, then back to a 2nd ZS next to cockpit, we use the fwd ZS if shorthanded

mast is KZ and Karver Halyard locks so all luff tension is via tack lines

all are 14mm dyneema with a high friction covers (Southern Ropes)

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On 7/15/2021 at 4:07 PM, SimonGH said:

those ZS jammers are almost $4000 each.  yikes!

I'm thinking the ronstan constrictor @ $160 is a bit more my price point :)

 

make sure it can take the load 

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2 hours ago, SSolo said:

make sure it can take the load 

They are surprisingly strong - 2850KG / 6270Lbf...  I think the biggest challenge is the length overall - 31" long.

And actually mounting it securely on the mast.

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So my concept works nicely (as I would have expected, it's not complicated).

I built a 4:1 tackle with two high strength double climbing pulleys and 12mm Viper line.  

I shackled one set of double pulleys to the mast base (where the turning blocks typically shackle), and the second set to a butterfly loop in the halyard.

Then I ran the viper line back through the turning block, organizer, cleat, and used the winch to tension.  

Physics cooperated and the tension on the winch was 25% of what was needed to properly tension the halyard.

So the only issue is what Snowden mentioned - the butterfly loop and shackle would stop the halyard from running free if you needed to drop the sail quickly.

I think the longer term solution is putting a constrictor clutch on the mast - if I can make it fit and mount it securely, the benefit of the constrictor clutch is that the line that is used to release the load can be extended, so you could route the release back to the cockpit.  

My plan would then be to tension with the 4:1, lock it in with the constrictor clutch, and then remove the 4:1 completely, leaving the halyard fixed by the clutch and the clutch release line run back through to the cockpit...

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/12/2021 at 9:53 PM, speedless said:

PArma, is that a retractable bowsprit? Yes

How have you set up the Bobstay? The bobstay runs through a low friction ring , then passes through hole in the knuckle and is dead ended at both the knuckle hole and end of the sprit. There is a long bungee attached around the friction ring and then to the 3rd  back from the pulpit which keeps the bobstay from flapping around & out of the water when not in use.

Is it a Bene 34.7/R10 by any chance? If so, what size Zero did you go for? Yes. Biggest that would fit on the Colligo continuous furler using the MH spin halyards

Cheers!

 

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On 7/13/2021 at 7:05 AM, ryley said:

our current operation is to hoist the code on the halyard until it's made, then use the 2:1 to get the right tension on the luff. 

Same here. It works, just have to remember to tighten it a bit before we begin furling.

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On 7/14/2021 at 11:42 AM, Reference said:

 And if you strip the last 8' or so, it'll run through the 2:1 friction rings a lot easier.   

I ditched the friction rings in favor of an actual block because trying to bend a super heavily loaded line first around a 115 degree turn and around a full 180 degree turn through friction rings was difficult.

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On 7/15/2021 at 8:07 AM, SimonGH said:

those ZS jammers are almost $4000 each.  yikes!

I'm thinking the ronstan constrictor @ $160 is a bit more my price point :)

 

It's an Open 50.....

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14 hours ago, Parma said:

It's an Open 50.....

And I always thought aviation was expensive!  FAA certification testing, documentation, etc...  those jammers are another level!

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Advanced tech cores take care to flatten low-level load, which is why a decent clutch is essential.

A dyneema/poly blend will give you improved holding distinctive in an older clutch but you will addition stretch.

I don't think sta-set is a suitable halyard or tack line material for a code sail. It's too stretchy, and is dependent on the cover and the core so if the cover chafes at all you've lost a batch of posture. I cognizance the aforesaid about sta-set x. you want thing core-dependent like viper or endura-braid or warpspeed or something else that has a dyneema (or related) core,

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