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Full fixed keel daysailor/dinghys, which design still in production?


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Of the fixed keel, open deck dinghys between 15-18 feet, I can only think of Herreshoff 12½ and Buzzards Bay 14.

Which design you are aware of that is still in production or even existence?

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In the UK if it has a keel it's a keelboat not a dinghy. 

The national squib at 19ft can be built to order.

The Yeoman or lift keel Kinsman can be built to order. But is 20ft.

The yard and Bure one design is built to order hull length ,20ft.

The K1 single hander is a ballasted lift keel dinghy at 15ft in production.

The K2 is a two hander ballasted  lift keel dinghy in production. At 15ft 5inches.

The international 2.4mR at about 14ft is available from several manufacturers.

The flying 15 at 18ft is built to order.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, sailman said:

Rhodes 19.  O’Day Day Sailer.

Rhodes 19 is a fin keeler, and the O'day is a lift keeler as I understand.

Maybe I should make it clear as long keel other than full keel.

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1 hour ago, Dex Sawash said:

There were a couple of Precision and Capri fixed keel boats under 20 feet, might be gone now.

Not familiar with precision, but Catalina Capri is a lifting keel?

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Cape Cod Mercury.

Three varietirs of Herreshoff:

Bullseye

12 1/2

Doughdish

 

I am only familiar with latter 2, thanks.

The mercury looks like have an interesting underwater profile.

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1 hour ago, The Q said:

In the UK if it has a keel it's a keelboat not a dinghy. 

The national squib at 19ft can be built to order.

The Yeoman or lift keel Kinsman can be built to order. But is 20ft.

The yard and Bure one design is built to order hull length ,20ft.

The K1 single hander is a ballasted lift keel dinghy at 15ft in production.

The K2 is a two hander ballasted  lift keel dinghy in production. At 15ft 5inches.

The international 2.4mR at about 14ft is available from several manufacturers.

The flying 15 at 18ft is built to order.

 

 

 

 

I remember there is a twin keel "keelboat" in the past in UK.

Not sure if it is active today.

Looks like there's not much full/long keel daysailor in existence today other than Herreshoff, Dark Harbor and Mercury.

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25 minutes ago, Wckoek said:

Rhodes 19 is a fin keeler, and the O'day is a lift keeler as I understand.

Maybe I should make it clear as long keel other than full keel.

Ensign

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2 hours ago, Wckoek said:

Rhodes 19 is a fin keeler, and the O'day is a lift keeler as I understand.

Maybe I should make it clear as long keel other than full keel.

That puts you in Bullseye territory for still manufactured. It really is a short list. There are probably some others that are under my radar. Full keel with 12 foot waterline = slow as molasses.

However I have sailed bullseyes a lot, since the mid 70s. Last 10 years not but before that almost every year. I have had so much fun sailing them. Even sailed in 40 knots. Surfed waves and covered 5 nm in 40 minutes that way. Had to repair the jib after that day.

 

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29 minutes ago, Wckoek said:

Looks very interesting, first time I've heard of them, thanks.

Built by Everett Pearson in Bristol R.I. bitd. Beforr the J-24 they were *everywherr.* Within 2 years some fleets practically disappeared asceveryone bought the J.

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56 minutes ago, mikegt4 said:

The Rhodes 18 is still available with a fixed keel. Different boat, older design than the already listed Rhodes 19.

http://www.capecodshipbuilding.com/fleet/index.php?boat=rhodes

I like the 18. I've sailed the centerboard version and it is much more responsive and dinghylike than the 19. I don't know what the keel version is like.

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On 6/6/2021 at 9:42 PM, fastyacht said:

Fleet of them in Essex. And some other places.

Don't suppose you know the UK PY for the ideal 18? or where I can get it, It's not on the RYA site that I can see. I'm messing around with charts generating a PY for my home design 16ft keelboat. I need as much evidence as I can get before submitting the the club handicapper.

I've got the DP-N (99,6)

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7 hours ago, The Q said:

Don't suppose you know the UK PY for the ideal 18? or where I can get it, It's not on the RYA site that I can see. I'm messing around with charts generating a PY for my home design 16ft keelboat. I need as much evidence as I can get before submitting the the club handicapper.

I've got the DP-N (99,6)

Interesting problem. If you take a selection of other keelboats that happen to be rated in bothsystems, I wonder if a correlation of NAYRU Portsmouth to RYA Portsmouth can be divined?

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Interesting problem. If you take a selection of other keelboats that happen to be rated in bothsystems, I wonder if a correlation of NAYRU Portsmouth to RYA Portsmouth can be divined?

My rough calculation based on the average of boats including dinghies, common to both handicap systems was multiply dp-n by 11.72, but I've added a few more boats since then, Can't remember current the exact figure it's not on this tablet.

I also have to play with the Broads handicap system which is a percentage added or taken away from the finishing time.

I'm building a spreadsheet of similar style boats, Defender 12, illusion, deception, international 2.4mR.

Local boats, Yeoman, Kinsman,  Rebel keelboat, Reedling , Yare, and Bure one design, Broads one design, Waveney.

Now  adding keel boats of a similar water line length which is 16ft which ties in nicely with this thread.

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Now at the right computer the D-PN numbers to RYA- PN vary between a ratio of 11.1 for a Soling up to 13..4 for an Optimist.  it appears there may be a wavy corresponding line between the slowest boats having the biggest ratio and the fastest the lowest. The average showing at the moment is 11.68. I must plot that on another graph.

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Back on topic another , Small open decked Keelboat that is built to order. Originally in timber now available in Glassfibre.

 The victory class, just over 20ft LOA but well below that LWL.

Zafirah on the Victory Class yard slipway

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If you like the Rustler 24 but don't have the cash flow, I know of a Piper One Design in California that needs an attentive owner. They're the exact same hull, the Rustler mold was taken off of hull #33 of the Pipers.

 

large_1649425.jpg?rev=1

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11 hours ago, The Q said:

Back on topic another , Small open decked Keelboat that is built to order. Originally in timber now available in Glassfibre.

 The victory class, just over 20ft LOA but well below that LWL.

Zafirah on the Victory Class yard slipway

Lapstrake hull?

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On 6/7/2021 at 2:51 PM, fastyacht said:

If you likr ensign look also its sister the Electra. Different layout.

 

Or the shorter version of Alberg full keel daysailer, the Bristol Corinthian (19').  Not in production but they're still around.  About a half dozen of them in Marblehead.

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1 hour ago, The Q said:

Yep, here's a picture of the class mould.

image.png.7d5191fb088a531ab1736a73060d9e7f.png

 

Interesting, I only know of folkboat that is build in GRP in such a way.

It is of similar displacement to Herreshoff 12 1/2 and Junior folkboat so it looks like it'll sail better than either of them.

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The Herreshoff 12.5 has a D-PN of 110.9, the Victory back calculated from the RYA PN gives a ball park figure pf D-PN 97.8  So the Victory is a lot faster.

There are a lot of small lapstrake / Clinker Dinghies in the UK produced in this way. Plus two famous ranges.

The Drascombe, Drascombe Sailing Boats - Boat Builders (Hampshire, UK)

The Cornish Crabber, Welcome to Cornish Crabbers - Cornish Crabbers

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None better than a Flying Fifteen for day sailing, racing and just ......having fun! I have one, and a Finn...and do the occasional keelboat regatta on bigger boats with mates. The perfect mix of social and serious fun!

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1 hour ago, Couta said:

None better than a Flying Fifteen for day sailing, racing and just ......having fun! I have one, and a Finn...and do the occasional keelboat regatta on bigger boats with mates. The perfect mix of social and serious fun!

I'd love one, they used to be raced locally.. But my back won't allow hiking out anymore..

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just saw this....interesting, some above might do it but I-110 /Ensign too and are long and need decent mooring, easily sailed alone. the FF is hot questions....must be answered....do you always need crew. If not, Ensign and I-110 will do, but long, and mooring is needed F15 is hot. Cape Cod Typhoon is like small Ensign...rare as  17 foot, or a Paine 17 

What sailing is planned, where??

 

 

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8 hours ago, BobBill said:

just saw this....interesting, some above might do it but I-110 /Ensign too and are long and need decent mooring, easily sailed alone. the FF is hot questions....must be answered....do you always need crew. If not, Ensign and I-110 will do, but long, and mooring is needed F15 is hot. Cape Cod Typhoon is like small Ensign...rare as  17 foot, or a Paine 17 

What sailing is planned, where??

 

 

Paine/Levant 15 looks like a nice boat, but pretty rare.

Cape Cod Typhoon looks interesting as well, a bit big as you say and mooring is borderline required, but I saw one asking for a good price.

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In this category it kind of come down to what is a "production boat"? It's more a case of obscure boatyards that still have the molds for those who can pay upfront, rather than selling an example to anyone who cuts a cheque at the boatshow. Some new Mcvay Bluenoses have been built in recent years, but that really is the cognoscenti at work. 

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A Cape Dory Typhoon could be a great choice, even if they're not still in production. They're widely available on the East Coast, still actively raced, and popular for restoration. Ones in great condition should be easy to find. Resale value is good - you might get your money back. Most come with trailers, and they're easily ramp launched.

A Typhoon may seem expensive for a really old, small boat, but it's still just 1/5 or 1/10 the cost of a new equivalent, like a Herreshoff 12 1/2, the small Paine daysailors, or a Harbor 20.

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https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/mercury-15-fk-cape-cod

 

cape_cod_mercury_keel_drawing.jpg

 

I've had the pleasure of sailing a fixed keel Cape Cod Mercury 15 on the Charles River through Community Boating. It sails reasonably well for a vangless dinghy with a handkerchief of a jib and is a great choice for the many first-time sailors there. It's noticeably more stable than an unballasted Mercury which I've also sailed, which is great when the hectic duckboat traffic of the Charles threatens to overwhelm. I think Cape Cod Shipbuilding still manufactures them in Buzzard's Bay.

 

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/rhodes-18

 

 

There's also a fixed keel variant of the Rhodes 18. My friend's Rhodes 18 with a centerboard is a very practical and lovely little daysailor. The fixed keel version looks like a royal PITA when you're trying to get it back on the trailer. Of the many Rhodes 18's who live on the Barnstable Yacht Club moorings, the only one which never goes in the water is a fixed keel version. It looks like you either need to use a crane to get it into the water, or drive the trailer out on the tidal flats at low tide and let it float off. It sits more than a foot higher on the trailer than my Catalina 22!!

 

Edit: I guess neither of these technically have a "full keel", or a long keel despite possessing fixed keels. To which I'd add that although the Cape Dory Typhoon has been mentioned already, how about the Victoria 18?

victoria_18_drawing.jpg

It's sort of the poor man's Cape Dory Typhoon, which is already the poor man's Herreshoff. 2 feet of draft with a long full keel... do you think it can go to windward at all?

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

McVay Minuet 18' and Bluenose 24'.

picbluenose24103c.jpg

Prettier and probably faster.

FB- Doug

I vote for going to France and absconding with that sexy little wooden custom job, ROASTBEEF

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