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What is the fastest "classic" pre WWII era yacht


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I wondered which sailboat do you think is the fastest of pre-World War II era design?

Obviously technology change a lot post WWII and fin keel as well as fiberglass technology came along.

I can only think of Dorade/Stormy Weather and probably the first Pen Duick for that era's race boats.

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Ranger would blow the doors off Ti., or Atlantic around the bouys.

 

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To windward, one of the 1937 J-Class.

Off the breeze in a blow, i agree with "Big Ti"

Beam reach, a 3-masted schooner like Atlantic, just for the WL length.  But not Creole.

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8 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

Fastest? Probably the Schooner Yacht Atlantic.

 

5 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Ranger would blow the doors off Ti., or Atlantic around the bouys.

 

 

5 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

To windward, one of the 1937 J-Class.

Off the breeze in a blow, i agree with "Big Ti"

Beam reach, a 3-masted schooner like Atlantic, just for the WL length.  But not Creole.

How about excluding the J-Class?

Those are a class of their own, or else tea clipper would probably qualify as well.

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http://www.sonderklasse-yachten.de/sonderclasskurz.html

Quote

The general restrictions were that the length L on the water-line, plus the greatest beam B plus the greatest draft D, should not be more than thirty-two feet. Also that the boat should not weigh less than 4035 pounds with equipment aboard, and that the sail area rated should not be more than 550 square feet in the main-sail and jib. The table of restrictions follows: (the original rules of 1900, which where modified for the American and German races)

tilly_XV_pane_03111.thumb.JPG.5e5275e31546e6bcaed383d012198770.JPG

DSC05347.thumb.JPG.287094c88dfecaeb36c7a369f4be81df.JPG

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Fastest for what purpose? There were many VERY fast pre WW2 yachts, many mentioned above.  Reliance, although fragile and not an offshore yacht could reach at 22 knots. There were fin keelers with separate rudders and forward canards in the late 1800's(and I think articulating keels as well)

Hell, although not yachts, the clipper ships were incredibly fast and held many offshore records until broken by multihulls.    

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8 hours ago, Former MDR Vandal 1 said:

Escapade.

 

Better record than Little Ti, over a longer period of time and a more diverse race schedule.

The first time I heard of this boat, too bad it was destroyed a few years ago when there is no takers.

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^ Flying Cloud and Hornet did New York to San Francisco in near 106/8 days. They both carried cargo and passengers. Thats pretty impressive. Andrew Jackson did the run in 89 days in 1860.  They were flying covering more than 15,000 miles averaging 170 miles a day.

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11 hours ago, Wckoek said:

 

 

How about excluding the J-Class?

Those are a class of their own, or else tea clipper would probably qualify as well.

Reliance.

Independence coulda been a contemder too

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3 hours ago, Black Jack said:

^ Flying Cloud and Hornet did New York to San Francisco in near 106/8 days. They both carried cargo and passengers. Thats pretty impressive. Andrew Jackson did the run in 89 days in 1860.  They were flying covering more than 15,000 miles averaging 170 miles a day.

If you think it's hard to round up crew regularly for a J/35, think what it would be like if you had Flying Cloud :)

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4 hours ago, Autonomous said:

That's why they had press gangs.

Or...You just went to the boat yard and grabbed anyone under 25 with a Swedish accent an a decent wool sweater.

IMO, the fastest in normal in-shore sailing conditions was probably Amaryllis, especially if it had been allowed to develop.  Other than that, Ranger or Reliance were probably the fastest pre-1960's sailboats ever built.

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Brilliant

Hoist the gollywobbler !

 

is.php?i=929884&img=REAL_BRILLIANT.j

Quote

Brilliant is a schooner located at Mystic Seaport in Mystic, Connecticut, United States. Brilliant was built in 1932 on City Island, Bronx, by Henry B. Nevins Yard to a design by Olin Stephens of Sparkman & Stephens for Walter Barnum. Brilliant was built as an ocean racing yacht, and on her maiden voyage crossed the Atlantic Ocean in just over 15 days, 1 hour and 23 minutes,[1] a record for a sailing yacht of her size. Brilliant ran from Nantucket Lightship to Bishop Rock Light, England

 

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1 hour ago, crashtack said:

https://proafile.com/images/article_images/_large/catafoil-de-r-r-gilruth-livre-sailing-hydrofoil.jpg

The first foiler was designed in 1938 by a NASA engineer and, according to the boatdesign forum, achieved about 12knts when foiling.

Herreshoff's Amaryllis II claims to have done 19mph (16.5 knots) "under reduced canvas" in 1933.

http://www.herreshoff.info/Docs/AuxDocs/2017_03_27_S01232_Amaryllis_II_Summary.pdf

my great great great uncle was the man! lost his boiler license for removing a safety device the dumbass, but we got more sailboats for it!

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The OP asked about a yacht, and that excludes all the commercial vessels like the clippers, no? The little experimental cats were a fascinating development platform, but I am not sure you could call them yachts within the OP's meaning. 

Reliance is certainly a sentimental favorite and an amazing achievement, but she had so many incompatible metals that she was a big battery that "fizzed like Alka- Seltzer" so had to be scrapped pretty much right after winning the Cup I thought.

So for any kind of buoy racing it would have to be Ranger. If you were racing boat for boat in SORC or Clipper Cup or Admirals Cup is there another yacht you would prefer to bring to the line?

For any kind of ocean racing it would have to be Atlantic wouldn't it it? The boats that were first to finish TransPac at that time were like the 67 footer Chubasco. Who was first to finish Bermuda in those days? It seems to me that Atlantic would have smoked them in TransPac or TransAt or Bermuda or Cape-Town Rio.

Straight line speed doesn't mean too much. Would you really consider kite boards or windsurfers or Sailrocket2 yachts? 

 

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While technically the difference between a boat and a yacht is the ability to have at least rudimentary arrangements to stay aboard after the days’ sailing or for crew off watch to have a place to eat and sleep.  However inland sailing often considered their larger sailing craft yachts.  Hence, the ILYA or Inland Lake Yachting Association.  So, consider the E-Scow and A-Scow.  Both were and still capable of speeds well over 25 mph and both can reliably pull water skiers or wakeboarders.  

So, pictures of a very early A-Scow and our familie’s E-Scow at speed after the war but sailed by the Brothers Kirste Will and Art as well as guest crew well before the war.  

5D9D98D9-640B-4191-A4B8-3AF311DEF874.jpeg

A3D697FA-C38E-47E8-B17D-2061BD5AE9C9.jpeg

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Ester was a 50ft rocketship, well ahead of her time. many items you find on TP52's were put into place in this 1901 rocket ship. under deck turnbuckles for the shrouds to reduce windage, all halyards led to below deck for a lower center of gravity, aluminium truss rods for stiffness. deep fin keel with bulb. All screws and rivets were drilled out (in 1901) which would save another 17kg in total...

 

https://www.yachtingworld.com/extraordinary-boats/ester-classic-swedish-racing-yacht-125105

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On 6/8/2021 at 1:34 AM, Former MDR Vandal 1 said:

Escapade.

 

Better record than Little Ti, over a longer period of time and a more diverse race schedule.

No love for Nina??

Have some great books on Escapade. Grad Dad navigated her too.

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The "90 ft LWL" class of America's Cup racers... Reliant, Valkyrie II and III, Defender, Shamrock, Columbia... regularly ran 20 knots +. Independence, with most radical hull, was said to be the fastest but keeping it one piece and going in the right direction proved to be enough of a challenge that she did not sail for the Cup.

They were faster than the Js, awesome as RANGER was. They were just so much bigger than anything else, it would be a surprise if they weren't.

article-2713278-202C6C4000000578-568_962

King Edward VII's BRITANNIA may have been the fastest of all, because she was not designed/built to any rating rule. She was 177 ft as opposed to Reliance 148 ft. Her design priority was that Bertie could have a hot lunch while enjoying sailing.

When acting as a trial horse for Dunraven's and then Lipton's challengers, her skipper deliberately slowed her down so as to give the other a chance to show improvement; in summer racing against VIGILANT she ran away from the Cup winner dramatically.

Wilhelm-II-on-SMS-Meteor-IV.jpg

It's also likely that Meteor II, the Kaiser's racing yacht specifically built to show up his English cousin, was faster. Smaller but with more sail area, she beat Britannia upwind and another of the huge racing cutters, Satanita which was said to be the fastest sailboat in the world on a reach.

These boats were man-killing brutes, but they were as fast as anything due to sheer size and power.

FB- Doug

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D4A8B44E-C562-4EB7-B3CE-612604AAC653.thumb.jpeg.224913d0b8a4c433e3bd068f39e4e5f6.jpeg
Was lucky enough to get a ride in a classic regatta on this beauty 

The big daddy to the 110 and 210

Any guesses

Ray Hunt was a genius 

 

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On 6/8/2021 at 10:36 PM, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

my great great great uncle was the man! lost his boiler license for removing a safety device the dumbass, but we got more sailboats for it!

NASA wasn't around in 38

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Pre war is 1914 or eariler.

It was my understanding that a yacht was a vessel over 24 feet that sailed on its own bottom from race to race, had berths and a galley. Also most pre war yachts where commercial vessels fishing or from trade first then made into gentlemens cruisers and racers. The objection to the Cat of Herroshoff created was that it did not have any of those attributes to make it a fine well founded yacht. Hunt and Herreshoff made boats that did not comply with those understandings. The titans of industry who paid for those hot designs wanted to win regardless of the traditions or would not to comply with the rules of understanding of the race organizers and yacht club members who had interests in racing the boats they aleady had. Eventually the titans won as more orders came in for hot cheater boats as everyone who is someone wants to win at sailing in the big venues.

That would make RELIANCE the fastest prewar yacht beating Fifes' SHAMROCK III.

815457455_ScreenShot2021-06-10at10_23_46AM.png

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On 6/8/2021 at 10:33 PM, crashtack said:

 

The first foiler was designed in 1938 by a NASA engineer and, according to the boatdesign forum, achieved about 12knts when foiling.

Herreshoff's Amaryllis II claims to have done 19mph (16.5 knots) "under reduced canvas" in 1933.

http://www.herreshoff.info/Docs/AuxDocs/2017_03_27_S01232_Amaryllis_II_Summary.pdf

I call you out on that. NASA was founded in 1958.

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3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I call you out on that. NASA was founded in 1958.

Possibly an engineer at its predecessor NACA.   Primarily concerned with flight rather than space.

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4 hours ago, Doug Halsey said:

He was an engineer at NACA and later one of the top honchos at NASA.

Robert R. Gilruth | NASA

 

Probably wouldn't have been on the Moon in '69 without him.

A Titan of space exploration.

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10 hours ago, Black Jack said:

Pre war is 1914 or eariler.

It was my understanding that a yacht was a vessel over 24 feet that sailed on its own bottom from race to race, had berths and a galley. Also most pre war yachts where commercial vessels fishing or from trade first then made into gentlemens cruisers and racers. The objection to the Cat of Herroshoff created was that it did not have any of those attributes to make it a fine well founded yacht. Hunt and Herreshoff made boats that did not comply with those understandings. The titans of industry who paid for those hot designs wanted to win regardless of the traditions or would not to comply with the rules of understanding of the race organizers and yacht club members who had interests in racing the boats they aleady had. Eventually the titans won as more orders came in for hot cheater boats as everyone who is someone wants to win at sailing in the big venues.

That would make RELIANCE the fastest prewar yacht beating Fifes' SHAMROCK III.

815457455_ScreenShot2021-06-10at10_23_46AM.png

this may be the single best photo of a yacht race ever

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On 6/10/2021 at 8:03 PM, quod umbra said:

No love for Nina??

Have some great books on Escapade. Grad Dad navigated her too.

I like Nina, and always wondered why there isn't more staysail schooner like Nina build.

Speaking of schooner, I think Alden's Malabar did well for a time before S&S came with Dorade.

Never sail on one of these, are they considered slow these days?

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On 6/10/2021 at 12:57 PM, Kevlar Edge said:

D4A8B44E-C562-4EB7-B3CE-612604AAC653.thumb.jpeg.224913d0b8a4c433e3bd068f39e4e5f6.jpeg
Was lucky enough to get a ride in a classic regatta on this beauty 

The big daddy to the 110 and 210

Any guesses

Ray Hunt was a genius 

 

That's a 110 you have pictured. RH designed 110's, 210's 310's, 410's and I think even a 510(which I don't think was ever built.)

 

There's a Hunt 410 in Quisett harbor on Buzzards Bay called Huntress. 

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On 6/7/2021 at 10:04 PM, Wckoek said:

I can only think of Dorade/Stormy Weather

I worked as a deckhand on Stormy Weather in 1979 in her old age as a USVI charter boat. She was fun to sail, but a real bear on the helm downwind in a sea. She certainly won a lot of silver in her day, but of course no match for the mega-yachts of her era.

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10 hours ago, CapDave said:

I worked as a deckhand on Stormy Weather in 1979 in her old age as a USVI charter boat. She was fun to sail, but a real bear on the helm downwind in a sea. She certainly won a lot of silver in her day, but of course no match for the mega-yachts of her era.

I see, the schooners would probably fare worse by today's standard.

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Atlantic.   Held the world record for a century for crossing the Atlantic.

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1 hour ago, MauiPunter said:

Atlantic.   Held the world record for a century for crossing the Atlantic.

Impressive, but that's only averaging about 10.3 knots. For a 228 foot boat sailing in breeze(which that race was known for), that's about what I would expect. 

There were other yachts which broke that record sooner but not in an official capacity.   

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On 6/17/2021 at 11:50 AM, Squalamax said:

That's a 110 you have pictured. RH designed 110's, 210's 310's, 410's and I think even a 510(which I don't think was ever built.)

 

There's a Hunt 410 in Quisett harbor on Buzzards Bay called Huntress. 

She’s a Lawley

 

78177ADF-357D-487C-84C1-7A9B3921BBCB.jpeg

03CD21CD-F330-4975-94F1-C7C8EFBA1667.jpeg

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On 6/10/2021 at 12:57 PM, Kevlar Edge said:

D4A8B44E-C562-4EB7-B3CE-612604AAC653.thumb.jpeg.224913d0b8a4c433e3bd068f39e4e5f6.jpeg
Was lucky enough to get a ride in a classic regatta on this beauty 

The big daddy to the 110 and 210

Any guesses

Ray Hunt was a genius 

 

She still races. And wins. Maybe with you trimming the main!

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On 6/18/2021 at 3:22 PM, Amati said:

She’s a Lawley

 

39 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

That's a 225 not a 410 an yes that is a Lawley. I have the *original* brochure!

 

On 6/10/2021 at 1:03 PM, Snaggletooth said:

Lawley 225

:)

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On 6/18/2021 at 12:04 PM, Alan Crawford said:

Define "Yacht". Pre WW-2 International 14 was pretty fast.

I14s were / are dinghies – see CDA

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

She still races. And wins. Maybe with you trimming the main!

Is that the one that has an Etchell’s rig?

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On 6/8/2021 at 11:04 AM, jackolantern said:

Fastest? Probably the Schooner Yacht Atlantic.

Got to agree with you there Jack, not only the fastest pre WW2 but her Trans-Atlantic record in 1905 of just over 12 days 4 hours stood for 90 years until Mari Cha IV beat it in 2005 so not only the fastest pre-war yacht but a damn sight faster than most things since unless they have more than one hull and even with one of them it took Eric Tabarly 75 years to best the record with Paul Ricard.

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On 6/19/2021 at 8:16 PM, fastyacht said:

She still races. And wins. Maybe with you trimming the main!

Let me know I would love to rip another bullet with you. 

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On 6/10/2021 at 2:25 PM, Black Jack said:

Pre war is 1914 or eariler.

It was my understanding that a yacht was a vessel over 24 feet that sailed on its own bottom from race to race, had berths and a galley. Also most pre war yachts where commercial vessels fishing or from trade first then made into gentlemens cruisers and racers. The objection to the Cat of Herroshoff created was that it did not have any of those attributes to make it a fine well founded yacht. Hunt and Herreshoff made boats that did not comply with those understandings. The titans of industry who paid for those hot designs wanted to win regardless of the traditions or would not to comply with the rules of understanding of the race organizers and yacht club members who had interests in racing the boats they aleady had. Eventually the titans won as more orders came in for hot cheater boats as everyone who is someone wants to win at sailing in the big venues.

That would make RELIANCE the fastest prewar yacht beating Fifes' SHAMROCK III.

815457455_ScreenShot2021-06-10at10_23_46AM.png

no, the op said pre-WWII, so 1939...

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On 6/25/2021 at 1:05 PM, Trovão said:

no, the op said pre-WWII, so 1939...

You know historians will eventually admit there was just 1 war with a break. The Armistice was the ceasefire that ended hostilities between the Allies and Germany on the 11th of November 1918. The Armistice did not end the First World War itself, but it was the agreement which stopped the fighting on the Western Front while the terms of the permanent peace were discussed. Prewar is a designation for 1914. It can be also argued that pre ww2 starts in 1931 with the Japanese invasion of China.

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3 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

You know historians will eventually admit there was just 1 war with a break. Prewar is a designation for 1914. It can be also argued that pre war ww2 starts in 1931 with the Japanese invastion of China.

it might be historically so, but the op specifically stated pre-WW II. if we are going to split hairs, any moment, from the big bang until 1914 could be considered "pre-war"...

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13 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I don't know that it is splitting hairs because WW2 begins in 1937 as per the Japanese curriculum. 

Let's add some Brylcreem to the spliting hairs. Japan get suncomfortable about world war two timing.  The Mukden Incident, or Manchurian Incident, was a false flag event staged by Japanese military personnel as a pretext for the 1931 Japanese invasion of Manchuria. 

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I don't disagree with the Mukden incident as the starting point of the Pacific War, but the Marco Polo Bridge incident is big in Japan. 

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On 6/11/2021 at 6:06 AM, fastyacht said:

At I thi k the Corinthian YC there are half models of those two on the wall.

Also, somewhat bafflingly, on the walls of a basement dive bar by Cherry Creek Reservoir in Denver (880 acres).

 

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36 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I don't know that it is splitting hairs because WW2 begins in 1937 as per the Japanese curriculum. 

So..... the Pearlle Harbore attacke wase juste us benig to cassiualle and carelesse?  The silley rounde eiye strikes againe..............            :)

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I’d back either Atlantic or Westward which has probably my favourite silhouette of any yacht (replica built named Eleonora)

7C7DF02C-1212-4D91-817E-955073E82AD3.png.c3b84b0056bc43c7928daaa91f83446c.pngD5C79E1B-05D8-4269-9E7B-D5C940B7237C.png.61c37d41abe97afebca4680aeb000ea7.png71BCA28F-A33E-435A-A9FC-9803B1AA2B18.jpeg.d5cc41b1a24e4420534b56c0e3604994.jpeg67CE2178-3656-44A0-923E-78D3F074CEDC.jpeg.2ef684e6cb4f68018f675ee25b461b61.jpeg

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On 6/8/2021 at 1:29 AM, Devoforedeckus said:

How about Amaryllis it was so fast they banned it from racing?

3-amaryllis-catamaran

Nat figured that the narrowest beam would be the fastest so he came up with the split hull design that was so fast for it’s day. 

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37 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Nat figured that the narrowest beam would be the fastest so he came up with the split hull design that was so fast for it’s day. 

Reading some of the history, both catamarans and fin keel / separate rudder boats were banned.  If its good, its banned.  So, they went absolutely ballistic with huge, multi metal, composite designs that in reality were some of best waterborne batteries ever created.  Word was they practically sizzled, sitting at anchor.  

NOW, for perhaps The Slowest Prewar/WWII boat, I present the “Sail and Bail.”  She leaked like a sieve.  Actually built during WWII as there was no young men around to crew the E-Scows and the few remaining locals around Cedar Lake Indiana wanted something to sail.  

This is my father, Will Kirste sailing on the bayou sometime around 1958-59.

314D6B30-C494-496D-B9DA-D82D082665DF.jpeg

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On 6/21/2021 at 11:23 AM, Squalamax said:

Any idea what the year was on that brochure? 

Not before Sept 25, 1939. That is the date of the drawing on the cover:

15236767602_0fb594f067_k.jpg

Or maybe after the 27th. Letters, haha:

15050737688_49aeec6930_k.jpg

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Member of our club raced a 110 last summer and is restoring it for sale and bought a Columbia 5.5 and likes it. Not as nimble or quick as the 110 though.

 

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Member of our club raced a 110 last summer and is restoring it for sale and bought a Columbia 5.5 and likes it. Not as nimble or quick as the 110 though.

 

110 is remarkable. I have too many boats and more coming. I am crazed this year. I wonder why?

At some point 110.

Must happen.

 

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I have too many as he knows, so no chance I can take it on. I need to move a few out of the fleet myself.

You understand, I’m sure.

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Mrs. Campbell’s yacht turned into a floating restaurant. The food was good, the views better… I missed the opportunity to help re-deck her in 2000-2001 in 8x8 teak decks, but since they cut through the deck beams on the way and had to re- frame most of the deck as a result, I’m glad I was up the road helping build the A Cats instead!

 

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We did company dinner aboard once. Dennis ordered the most expensive everything. Haha.

And then there was the Moshulu Cup. I raced it in my Penguin once! So many compliments! Best $600 I ever spent

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Penguins were cool. My brother crewed for one of the Beaton’s for a National Championship in the early 80’s.

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I think i remember reading Flying Cloud had a 374 mile day as her best and Atlantic 325 or so. Pretty incredible averages for sure. 

I didn't realize there was a replica of Atlantic built. Pretty cool.  

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

A Scows and E Scows zip along pretty well 

That be a lot of mast and sail for a boat that’s got no keel and has a flat bottom

(but they sure are fun)

28712991-7BB9-427E-AF9B-9A2026EDCECC.jpeg

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On 6/29/2021 at 2:53 AM, Sailabout said:

Downwind, sothern ocean ....4 masted steel barquentines went quick I think

Tea Clippers were the fastest commercial sail - 17 knots or so best speed.

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