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Is it time to start calling it the Wuhan Virus


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All politics aside, it is odd the press have widely used the terms 'UK' Variant, the 'Indian' Variant, the 'Brazilian' variant as well as talking historically about the Spanish, Hong Kong and Russian

The foundation of a market economy is the rule of law  China is not a market economy 

SO glad you are impressed with the length of my ... post! One cut and paste.

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Looking grim in Indo.

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On 6/17/2021 at 2:42 PM, NeedAClew said:

Why don't we call it the Spread ByDumbshits virus in the USA because however it originated, that's what it is. 

And then there are Wuhan Wahoos! Yippie Kai Yay!  Let’s get on a Harley, no helmet (that goes without saying), and go to Sturgis! Again.  We can hug!  And party!
 

China is headed back to an Emperor running a galactic sized government.  Tradition.  So they’re discovering again how nimble that can be.  Court intrigue involving disease biology and massive egos.  What could go wrong?  A country only as good as one guy.  In office until he dies.  And then what?  Another ‘election’?  Let’s hope China invades Afghanistan.  Gengis Khan was the only guy to pull that off, but China tamed that family too.  Then Afghanistan will be trapped in a 21st century Chinese expansionist distopian mindset for a millennium, instead of the dark ages.  
 

Two historians arguing about history.  Same thing over & over again?  Or just one Goddamned Thing after another- A bunch of monkey men trapped in a gravity well fucking and fighting, getting sick and dying, while a few benighted souls point to an exit sign labeled ‘enlightenment’ and are roundly mocked, reviled, ignored, used, and then rubbed out.  Live long and prosper my ass.  Mao trying to convince everybody he was the last Confucian scholar keeping the dynastic cycle percolating.  
 

 

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Not entirely sure what that rant was about.

However we do have to face up to the fact that China is a massive and growing economic power with an agenda that is worryingly opaque.   They still lay claim to Taiwan which is the largest source of semiconductors and chips for life as we know it in the USA.  The dual system in Hong Kong seems increasingly under threat.  Just as we think their exposure to Capitalism and Democracy might tempt them to continue along a path to increasing freedom, along comes CV19 to be used as an example of how a centrally controlled single party machine can handle a crisis better than democracies in general.

The virus originated in China. They had less time to recognize the problem. They didnt have vaccines. Yet they reacted so harshly and completely that the disease has been controlled. It is controlled for now but the ultimate success will very much depend on how they do with their own vaccine developments.

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9 hours ago, IPLore said:

Not entirely sure what that rant was about.

However we do have to face up to the fact that China is a massive and growing economic power with an agenda that is worryingly opaque.   They still lay claim to Taiwan which is the largest source of semiconductors and chips for life as we know it in the USA.  The dual system in Hong Kong seems increasingly under threat.  Just as we think their exposure to Capitalism and Democracy might tempt them to continue along a path to increasing freedom, along comes CV19 to be used as an example of how a centrally controlled single party machine can handle a crisis better than democracies in general.

The virus originated in China. They had less time to recognize the problem. They didnt have vaccines. Yet they reacted so harshly and completely that the disease has been controlled. It is controlled for now but the ultimate success will very much depend on how they do with their own vaccine developments.

The rant came from this:  we got up to 85% vaccinated adults here.  This sounds like herd immunity, right?  And as a result we’re flooded with God knows who coming here because we pulled it off?  And how many of these folks are vaccinated?  It’s amazing how many MAGATS are coming here. Fucking freeloaders.  I could be walking around without a mask on, but noooooo, I’ve got to pay attention to a bunch of hostile idiots telling me to kiss their asses because I’m wearing a mask.  It’s true: we as a species are not capable of adapting to pandemics- some of us can adapt, but it doesn’t take many to fuck that up.  So we’ll see what happens in a few weeks.  But how could we know, without immediate deaths?  And real in depth testing?  My fingers are crossed that vaccination works….

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1 hour ago, fishingbobber said:

I recently read and saw of aerial photographs of China constructing missile silos for ICBM nucks. They will be moving into afghanistan. They are emerging from this pandemic and were better situated to come out ahead...  https://thehill.com/opinion/international/562037-china-will-be-the-next-empire-to-enter-the-afghan-graveyard

AJ and his Vets for Peace need to set sail to Qingdao and give those naughty Chinese a severe talking too about the dangers of nukes. :lol:

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Upthread (I think it was this one) there was some misinformation stating that the lab had standards of hygiene and disease control at a level of a dentist surgery.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/australian-scientist-the-sole-foreign-researcher-at-the-wuhan-lab-speaks-out-20210628-p584sv.html

Someone who worked there says no... She also pretty much shuts down the engineered theory and the talk that people were infected mid 2019...

It almost seems there might be a cold war era red under the bed style anti China vibe happening in social media.

That being said the treatment / approaching genocide of the Uighurs seems real and alarming and at a societal level it seems there is a pretty strong racist (Han Chinese are superior) element.  However if i cherry picked news reports Australia might sound the same...

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I wonder if they will call one of the co founders of Moderna a conspiracy theorist or anti vaxxer for saying this.

 

“Coronavirus escaped from the Wuhan laboratories”, the explanation of the biologist Rossi

The words of the well-known biologist Derrick Rossi: “I don’t think this mistake was deliberate, they were just studying it and there was an accident”.

The Canadian biologist Derrick Rossi, one of the founders of the American biotech company Moderna, gave an interview to the newspaper Trade and, on the origin of the Coronavirus, he presented his thesis: “We have no evidence in any way, but this virus is so different from that of bats that it seems unlikely to be natural to me. It is a fact that a laboratory in Wuhan was working on it and I am convinced that it came out of there, that it escaped “.

Then Derrick Rossi added further statements about it: “I don’t think it was deliberate, they were just studying it and there was an accident. China denies it, of course, but it’s the explanation that I think is the most logical.” A new chapter, therefore, of the endless controversy between China, accused of the error and which rejects any kind of accusation, and the many who are convinced of the error of the now famous laboratory that will go down in history regardless of the truth.

https://www.italy24news.com/technology/99471.html

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Nice article in the British Medical Journal is this a credible source or do the sheeple think it's a conspiracy theory website?

 

The covid-19 lab leak hypothesis: did the media fall victim to a misinformation campaign?

08 July 2021

A conspiracy to label critics as conspiracy theorists

An impartial, credible investigation?

As the news media scramble to correct and reflect on what went wrong with nearly a year of reporting, the episode has also highlighted quality control issues at the ubiquitous “fact checking” services.

Article here- https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1656

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2 hours ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

Nice article in the British Medical Journal is this a credible source or do the sheeple think it's a conspiracy theory website?

Ok, so after us mere 'sheeple' bow to your superior knowledge, did you read the article?

It's basically a pile of heresay and gossip that ends with "the scientific consensus is now that we don't know where it came from".

Wow, was there a reason you posted the link to that waffle?

It did not contain 1 fact or new piece of information, it often takes many years, even decades to trace where viruses originate from.

btw - nowhere does it or anyone in it say anything apart from "it could have been a lab leak".

No shit !  startling information oh enlightened one !

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3 hours ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

Nice article in the British Medical Journal is this a credible source or do the sheeple think it's a conspiracy theory website?

 

The covid-19 lab leak hypothesis: did the media fall victim to a misinformation campaign?

08 July 2021

A conspiracy to label critics as conspiracy theorists

An impartial, credible investigation?

As the news media scramble to correct and reflect on what went wrong with nearly a year of reporting, the episode has also highlighted quality control issues at the ubiquitous “fact checking” services.

Article here- https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1656

This article has already been published in another SA Thread.

It is a well written news article which basically concludes that an accidental lab leak is a potential origin of the virus that should be investigated alongside the possibility  of an animal transfer.

It is critical of those who rejected the lab leak possibility out of hand and points to the influence of a scientist who had a conflict of interest.

It is not a scientific paper trying to prove one alternative or the other.

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3 hours ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

I wonder if they will call one of the co founders of Moderna a conspiracy theorist or anti vaxxer for saying this.

 

 

Rossi is certainly not an anti-vaxxer. He strongly supports getting vaccinated for covid (and he left Moderna a long time ago)

It is a hell of a coincidence that the pandemic starts in Wuhan, home to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which was studying these bat viruses and their derivatives.  Surely we must admit that a lab leak was a significant possibility.

The trouble is the Chinese will never even admit it is a possibility so its unlikely they will investigate it thoroughly.

If China could admit that both origins are possible, animal transfer or lab leak.....then perhaps they would gain some international support in investigating both possible origins.

I think it would be good news if it was a lab leak because then we dont have to worry about an animal source which could release a 2nd pandemic, 20 years from now.  We have to tighetn up international research and lab guidelines. But perhaps that should happen anyway.

 

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So, as a practical matter, suppose Jesus or Elvis or whoever rent the heavens and announced it came from a lab in Wuhan? What difference does this make in our daily lives? In making new vaccines? In anything you care about? Discuss. 

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4 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

2. Lab leak, where research into bat corona viruses accidentally allowed a virus infection to escape through poor protocols at the lab.

Hendra virus illustrates the typical way that novel viruses occur in humans. HIV, MER s Ebola, etc all came about due to zoonotic transfer that took many years to trace. 

@EYESAILOR coincidentally last night I did some research on the history of tracing those viruses you mention.  I was motivated by a thought that perhaps technology has change!  

I looked specifically at HIV assuming that the other viruses you continually refer to would have had a similar tracing history.

HIV/AIDS became an epidemic in the late 70's and early 80's.  Now my research highlights two factors that made the tracing of the origin problematic - 

  1. The genome sequencing technology available at the time; and
  2. The fact that it was very much a cold case i.e. to draw an analogy the crime had been committed decades before it was discovered.

Genome sequencing technology capable of fully sequencing a HIV strain e.g. HIV-1 was not available until post 2006 with the full genome of HIV-1 not being sequenced until 2009!  https://www.britannica.com/science/HIV-1-genome and https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JCM.03265-15.  

HIV is an RNA virus just like Covid-19.  However HIV is more complex, replicates rapidly and has a high mutation rate.

So we arrive at 2019 and Covid-19.  Well we all know now that the technology is available today that can genome sequence a very small sample from one individual and trace contacts.  For example individual D is tested positive to Covid-19 when entering a country and within hours (quicker if desired) the variant is identified and that samples link to other tests can be identified i.e. D got it from C who got it from B or got it from A and so on.

As well as the lack of technology and science the then unknown fact that HIV was a very very cold case amplified the tracing difficulties.  In 2019 a 53 year old human tissue sample tested positive to HIV i.e. that person had been infected prior to their death in 1966!  The theory now is that HIV had made the zoonotic transfer as early as the late 1800's!

So now we come to 2019-2020-2021 and Covid-19.  The initial theory was zoonotic transfer from pangolins in the wet market of Wuhan.  Thousands of samples have been taken at that market and millions all over the world since.  Yet there are missing links in the sequencing prior to Wuhan ground zero.  The closest relative to Covid-19 was found in a bat virus sampled 1000 miles away from Wuhan but one that was being studied in the Wuhan Laboratory (allegedly where "gain of function" experiments were being undertaken.  Why don't they do "loss of function" research?).

However there are no recorded intermediary infections or intermediary zoonotic host identified.  Yet we can genomically sequence very small samples in hours and trace their origin back to ground zero infection but not beyond that.  There are even global databases (strangely some have had data from Wuhan Lab deleted) and websites that are constantly publishing this information e.g. https://nextstrain.org/ncov/gisaid/global

So comparing Covid-19 to HIV, Mers and Ebola tracing is not a fair comparison.  In my mind all the forensic data points back to Wuhan.

 

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9 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

So comparing Covid-19 to HIV, Mers and Ebola tracing is not a fair comparison.  In my mind all the forensic data points back to Wuhan.

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On 7/13/2021 at 1:37 AM, NeedAClew said:

So, as a practical matter, suppose Jesus or Elvis or whoever rent the heavens and announced it came from a lab in Wuhan? What difference does this make in our daily lives? In making new vaccines? In anything you care about? Discuss. 

Because then the world can demand compensation from the lying little cunts.

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Because then the world can demand compensation from the lying little cunts.

What, trade sanctions? Like the check is not in the mail. Look at Holocaust survivor claims, stolen art still being returned how long later

.

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It was, is and always will be the China virus. 
 

And there are many effective ways to make China pay a dear price for it. If only we had the balls.

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I still do not think it could have been a deliberate release from a lab.

1. Why release it on your own people?  Surely release it in the USA first.

2. Why release it in Wuhan, where the lab is based, and the potential connection is so obvious?

So we are left with 2 alternatives

(i) It was an accidental leak, and the lab management is to blame.

(ii) It was a zoonotic transfer.

There is a 3rd alternative which does not bear thinking about and I dismiss.

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4 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Why release it on your own people? 

you have an antidote ......

 

4 minutes ago, IPLore said:

There is a 3rd alternative which does not bear thinking about and I dismiss.

yep , that'll be the elephant in the room ....

 

btw , what's China's current status re covid ?

seem to have disappeared from the news , any delta variant there ?

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@Mid  A lot of Chinese people died if they had an antidote.  They are sending their vaccine to their allies. I think they would be proudly announcing they have discovered an antidote by now if they had one, and extracting al kinds of concessions.  So I discount that as unlikely

If you are doing a deliberate release...why even cause a suspicion that it originated in China?  If you are going to release it deliberately, spray a few canisters liberally in Raleigh Durham NC and let UNC's corona virus lab take the blame.

If it was a deliberate release (which I doubt), who would release it in Wuhan?

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Here , in 2012 (8 years prior to the pandemic), is Fauci is debating the pros and cons of gain of function research.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3484390/

"consider this hypothetical scenario: an important gain-of-function experiment involving a virus with serious pandemic potential is performed in a well-regulated, world-class laboratory by experienced investigators, but the information from the experiment is then used by another scientist who does not have the same training and facilities and is not subject to the same regulations. In an unlikely but conceivable turn of events, what if that scientist becomes infected with the virus, which leads to an outbreak and ultimately triggers a pandemic? "

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

It was, is and always will be the China virus. 

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12 hours ago, IPLore said:

(i) It was an accidental leak, and the lab management is to blame.

This is the most likely cause, but will never be known for sure. Criticism of your manager is not encouraged at all. To do so would cause a loss of face and usually ends up with retribution and no change.

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Ok, hypothetical question.    If it was a wild type strain being grown in a lab and accidentally leaked, it is still a wild strain.   Aside from identifying case 0, how would it be different from a zoonotic spread at the market that liked or mutated to like people?   Especially if case zero was also a customer at the nearby live market, it seems impossible to know unless the Chinese were forthcoming on exactly what genotypes of what virus were in the lab.    Even if they were transparent, many wouldn’t believe them.    
 

I remain confident virologists would have been suspicious of gene splicing 18 months ago when it was first sequenced, if this was a manufactured virus.   It was either a biosecurity failure or a public health policy failure with unregulated live animal transport.    Either way it was a big but unintended Chinese oops.    Either way they responded better without advanced warning then we did with weeks to prepare.

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39 minutes ago, Lark said:

If it was a wild type strain being grown in a lab and accidentally leaked, it is still a wild strain.

 Not if it has been involved in gain of function research and or many generations of the virus have grown in isolation from the initial strain.  The earliest cases of Covid-19 have a genomic sequence that is significantly different to the nearest wild strain relative.  Hence the intrigue.  There are at least four mutations/adaptations that are quite different to anything previously sequenced.  

43 minutes ago, Lark said:

Aside from identifying case 0, how would it be different from a zoonotic spread at the market that liked or mutated to like people?   Especially if case zero was also a customer at the nearby live market, it seems impossible to know unless the Chinese were forthcoming on exactly what genotypes of what virus were in the lab.

If the virus has developed naturally and came to the wet market on a zoonotic host there won't be a Case Zero.  There would be many cases from a single or multiple sources.  That host would also have to be infectious and shedding significant amounts of the virus while at the market.  It is highly improbable that the virus mutated in a single host while at the wet market, became infectious and only infected one person.  Therefore it is highly unlikely that ground zero was the Wuhan wet market.

The natural strain evolution theory should have many many traceable relatives still active in the environment.  The Chineses may or may not have that data.  Contrary to popular belief viruses only mutate at an identifiable rate relative to time.  To leap from one host to an intermediate zoonotic host and then to humans takes a fair amount of time and lots and lots of replication.  

Covid-19 didn't just naturally instantly mutate and become infectious.  Even if a human was infected from a zoonotic host it doesn't necessarily mean it was infectious from human to human.  At least not without some identifiable evolutionary path.

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

At least not without some identifiable evolutionary path.

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Truly believe it`s a laboratory virus. Accident IMHO (Stupidity is all around). Everyone involved, no innocents. But by far, chinese goverment guilty of not telling the truth, and hiding information,that could have saved millions. Should be charge for genocide... but who is going to bell the cat, all complices.

https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

Very long article, got lost at some point... you decide

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1 hour ago, jorge said:

Truly believe it`s a laboratory virus. Accident IMHO (Stupidity is all around). Everyone involved, no innocents. But by far, chinese goverment guilty of not telling the truth, and hiding information,that could have saved millions. Should be charge for genocide... but who is going to bell the cat, all complices.

https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

Very long article, got lost at some point... you decide

That is a good article that nobody here is going to get through or really fully understand and appreciate. 

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is a good article that nobody here is going to get through or really fully understand and appreciate. 

when I open it in brave browser it tells me to update chrome .........

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17 minutes ago, Mid said:
22 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is a good article that nobody here is going to get through or really fully understand and appreciate. 

when I open it in brave browser it tells me to update chrome .........

No, you should download the new FBI browser, like Wess and all his RWNJ buddies use.

;)

- DSK

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well I managed to open it and read about the first 4 paragraphs before the conspiracy theories became too much ....

 

the article also draws NO conclusions .

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so lets take a look at the author ..................

 

5f36d4fb-d48c-454a-8228-34ccb06a7e93?rendition=image1280

 

But none of these articles mention the fact that Wade is a known serial fabricator and a leading advocate of racist pseudo-science, whose 2014 book arguing for a genetic basis for differences in intelligence between races was condemned by the scientists whose research he cited, together with more than 140 other leading human developmental biologists.

Nor do they mention that Wade’s book was hailed by former Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard David Duke—together with other neo-Nazis—as a blow against “Jewish Supremacists.”

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/06/07/wade-j07.html

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8 hours ago, Mid said:

well I managed to open it and read about the first 4 paragraphs before the conspiracy theories became too much ....

 

the article also draws NO conclusions .

Excuse me. IMHO there are no conspiracy opinions, just talks about facts, leaves  the door wide open for anyone to draw his or her conclusions. You can`t draw conclusions, when part of important information was not given, the one concerning the chinese goverment. If they didn't have nothing to hide why didn't they give the infomartion? By the way, I'm missing something... you said you read four paragraphs and say it draws no conclusions?

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Sadly he is kinda typical of the idiots around here. 

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13 minutes ago, jorge said:

By the way, I'm missing something... you said you read four paragraphs and say it draws no conclusions?

@Mid had already drawn his conclusions before reading one paragraph.  Then as per his modus operandi furiously Google's the authors history looking for info to discredit the authors and ipso facto the articles content.

He even does this with respected Scientists I.e. uses ad hominem attacks on the author rather than debating the content or the research.

 

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17 minutes ago, jorge said:

You can`t draw conclusions, when part of important information was not given, the one concerning the chinese goverment.

Nor when substantial amounts of genomic sequencing data was deleted by the Wuhan Lab and the Chinese Government.

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Daszak, NIAID, and China lied... and people died.

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1 hour ago, jorge said:

Excuse me. IMHO there are no conspiracy opinions,

 

12 minutes ago, Wess said:

Daszak, NIAID, and China lied

QED

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5 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

@Mid had already drawn his conclusions before reading one paragraph.  Then as per his modus operandi furiously Google's the authors history looking for info to discredit the authors and ipso facto the articles content.

He even does this with respected Scientists I.e. uses ad hominem attacks on the author rather than debating the content or the research.

 

 Kinda "Kill the messenger stuff..."

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