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Given the insane boat market, used boat prices are pretty lofty. I am looking for a boat for beer can racing, some distance racing, and family use (maybe some weekending, but not much cruising). We race light air weeknights in the long island sound. I would love to do some OD which the 109 presents. Perhaps the 99 will have in the future but that is uncertain. 

It appears that I can snag a 99 for fall delivery around $220. Decent 109s are around $150. Surprisingly the 109 rates faster. I am having trouble wrapping my head around the price of a 16 y/o boat for only a little less. I don't need new, but it sure would be nice. 

What does everyone foresee for the 99? Seems like they're still selling. I like the doublehanded optimization. What's the best move? Or what circumstances would be optimal for either? 

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109 has amazing OD opportunities, especially in LIS.  17 boats at Cedar Point just this past weekend,  the 99,  not so much.

My observed experience is that the 99 is not a great W/L boat.   does pretty well if given some distance to race and some reaching legs.

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109 all the way, the 99 looks good but has a shorter sprit, less interior space, still has an alloy rig and a ton more money. Round here the 109s still run rings around the 99s. The only thing I like about the 99 is the tiller steering 

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21 hours ago, LISlubber said:

Given the insane boat market, used boat prices are pretty lofty. I am looking for a boat for beer can racing, some distance racing, and family use (maybe some weekending, but not much cruising). We race light air weeknights in the long island sound. I would love to do some OD which the 109 presents. Perhaps the 99 will have in the future but that is uncertain. 

It appears that I can snag a 99 for fall delivery around $220. Decent 109s are around $150. Surprisingly the 109 rates faster. I am having trouble wrapping my head around the price of a 16 y/o boat for only a little less. I don't need new, but it sure would be nice. 

What does everyone foresee for the 99? Seems like they're still selling. I like the doublehanded optimization. What's the best move? Or what circumstances would be optimal for either? 

LISLubber,

I think your $220k price on the J-99 is a bit low.  Using a J Boat dealer's price sheet, I came up with more like $265k which included electronics, sails and Maryland sales tax (5%).   A virtually new fully loaded J-99 was listed on Yacht World in early Spring for $265k but didn't last long. 

The average sale price of  the last 13 J-109s sold via Yacht World (between Jan '19 and Jan '20, model years '02-'09) was $130,454.  Given the "insane" boat market as you say, good J-109s are hard to find.  We traveled to look at two of them this Spring and rejected both due to poor condition, and were then told by another broker to not bother traveling as another one was "rough".   The right one will turn up at the right price eventually with patience, of which I have little left.

I know of several boats that have sold within days of being listed and some of which were gone in the first day.  Boats are being sold for full asking price.

Best of luck in you boat decision and search.  It's certainly tough out there!

...FC

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Thank you for the replies! Foxtrot, would you be able to share common issues with 109s or things to look for when shopping? There are a couple local to me that I would like to look at. I may have to rethink the 99 budget. 

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11 hours ago, Foxtrot Corpen said:

LISLubber,

I think your $220k price on the J-99 is a bit low.  Using a J Boat dealer's price sheet, I came up with more like $265k which included electronics, sails and Maryland sales tax (5%).   A virtually new fully loaded J-99 was listed on Yacht World in early Spring for $265k but didn't last long. 

The average sale price of  the last 13 J-109s sold via Yacht World (between Jan '19 and Jan '20, model years '02-'09) was $130,454.  Given the "insane" boat market as you say, good J-109s are hard to find.  We traveled to look at two of them this Spring and rejected both due to poor condition, and were then told by another broker to not bother traveling as another one was "rough".   The right one will turn up at the right price eventually with patience, of which I have little left.

I know of several boats that have sold within days of being listed and some of which were gone in the first day.  Boats are being sold for full asking price.

Best of luck in you boat decision and search.  It's certainly tough out there!

...FC

Thank you for the replies! Foxtrot, would you be able to share common issues with 109s or things to look for when shopping? There are a couple local to me that I would like to look at. I may have to rethink the 99 budget. 

 

22 hours ago, bloodshot said:

109 has amazing OD opportunities, especially in LIS.  17 boats at Cedar Point just this past weekend,  the 99,  not so much.

My observed experience is that the 99 is not a great W/L boat.   does pretty well if given some distance to race and some reaching legs.

Yes I am very interested in CP, American Spring/Fall, and perhaps others. I am hoping, as a class, it is a welcoming group if I take the plunge. 

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2 hours ago, LISlubber said:

Thank you for the replies! Foxtrot, would you be able to share common issues with 109s or things to look for when shopping? There are a couple local to me that I would like to look at. I may have to rethink the 99 budget. 

109s are pretty solid, but there are few things to check,

Early TPI boats had keel sump issues, it has been reported that at least 130 needed repair. Hopefully somebody will chime in with the production cut off date after which it is not an issue, but if looking at a boat from that era make sure the repair was done.

Rudder bearings are an issue. This is not unique to the 109, but worth a close look. Early boats had edison, newer French built have JP3. Too much aluminum is used and they will fail, especially if salt water sailed. Dropping the rudder is not too bad, replacing the lower bearing is a big job. Check for looseness, or binding. Jefa makes non aluminum replacements.

Check the bowsprit carefully, some leak, some don't. 

Newer French boats have volvo D1-30 engines. The entire product line was recalled and the motors replaced free of charge. It was an emisions issue, the motors ran fine. If looking at a volvo powered boat pull the serial number and contact a authorized repair shop or call volvo. They can tell if the motor was replaced.

The same engines have had multiple recalls on the MDI, a black box that converts the anolog data from the motor to digital for electronic controls and to use for NMEA data. Again, check the serial numbers to confirm the box is the newest available. They ALWAYS fail, and when they do you can not start, or stop the motor. Last I checked the part was $1000.

As with any fully cored boats check for water intrusion, especially at the stantions. There was a mid west boat a few years back that extensive hull repairs (not just the deck) from leaking stantions. 

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9 hours ago, steele said:

109s are pretty solid, but there are few things to check,

Early TPI boats had keel sump issues, it has been reported that at least 130 needed repair. Hopefully somebody will chime in with the production cut off date after which it is not an issue, but if looking at a boat from that era make sure the repair was done.

Rudder bearings are an issue. This is not unique to the 109, but worth a close look. Early boats had edison, newer French built have JP3. Too much aluminum is used and they will fail, especially if salt water sailed. Dropping the rudder is not too bad, replacing the lower bearing is a big job. Check for looseness, or binding. Jefa makes non aluminum replacements.

Check the bowsprit carefully, some leak, some don't. 

Newer French boats have volvo D1-30 engines. The entire product line was recalled and the motors replaced free of charge. It was an emisions issue, the motors ran fine. If looking at a volvo powered boat pull the serial number and contact a authorized repair shop or call volvo. They can tell if the motor was replaced.

The same engines have had multiple recalls on the MDI, a black box that converts the anolog data from the motor to digital for electronic controls and to use for NMEA data. Again, check the serial numbers to confirm the box is the newest available. They ALWAYS fail, and when they do you can not start, or stop the motor. Last I checked the part was $1000.

As with any fully cored boats check for water intrusion, especially at the stantions. There was a mid west boat a few years back that extensive hull repairs (not just the deck) from leaking stantions. 

Great info and exactly what I am looking for. Thank you for posting. 

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Your'e welcome. The 109 class website has some good info as well, and there is always a chance that someone will have knowledge of a particular boat you may be considering.

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OP,

 I think  167 is for sale. I raced the boat with the original owner and the boat left town in top form. I cannot speak to the current owner/condition. J109 is an easy boat to own.

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LISlubber... Steele presents a good list of common issues.

I would add a this anecdotal story...  On one J-109 we looked at, as I was topside, inspecting the deck and checking for gelcoat crazing (a reported common problem with J-109s), my 125 lb wife went below and as she stepped off the companionway ladder her first step just about went through the soft floor board below.  The broker agreed that the cabin sole needed to be replaced.  Apparently, the J-109 very shallow bilge can eventually lead to a wet, soft cabin sole.  It's tough to keep water out of the bilges if the rain water comes down through the top of the mast which it does on most boats.

My first boat, a Southern Cross 31, had a 3ft deep bilge.  No problem there!  Ha!

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I have J-99 USA 31 and love the boat. I race 109s all the time, and its definitely back and forth. That being said - 99 owners are moving our masts, playing with rig tension, developing inhauler ranges, and coming up with what polars look like. Unfortunately we are too new for easy tuning guides - but we are getting faster. If you look at the results of some of the European boats they are definitely getting some wins. Last year in our first year with the boat we didnt travel much with Covid but in racing in NJ, NY and LIS we were either winning or on the podium. We also did a two week cruise up to Newport and Block lsland and its a surprisingly comfortable boat and obviously very easy to double hand. The one drawback for sure is one design - the boat comes with multiple keel, rudder, and water ballast options, so I dont see one design happening anytime soon. I have a Lightning for my one design fix though :) 

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In The Netherlands, non of the boats have waterballast. and I would advocate against a d0uble rudder unless in specific situations like long distance single handing. the single rudder is big and works well in almost all situations. when unsure, look at the big classes. Inshore, team sailing, think TP52, single rudder. offshore singlehanded, think imoca, open 40 etc, double rudder.The iRC keel works well as you have earlier flow, but the standard keel has more righting moment due to lower center of gravity. otherwise, not much difference. So in a field, all 5 of them, tend to stick to each other and race each other, which is almost like one design or box rule.

There is one 99 delivered who wanted to do sym kites, but is considering asyms now. in the last Wednesday night light weather race, they beat a 109 with 15 minutes over the finish line. 

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On 6/14/2021 at 8:32 AM, GHarring19 said:

I have J-99 USA 31 and love the boat. I race 109s all the time, and its definitely back and forth. That being said - 99 owners are moving our masts, playing with rig tension, developing inhauler ranges, and coming up with what polars look like. Unfortunately we are too new for easy tuning guides - but we are getting faster. If you look at the results of some of the European boats they are definitely getting some wins. Last year in our first year with the boat we didnt travel much with Covid but in racing in NJ, NY and LIS we were either winning or on the podium. We also did a two week cruise up to Newport and Block lsland and its a surprisingly comfortable boat and obviously very easy to double hand. The one drawback for sure is one design - the boat comes with multiple keel, rudder, and water ballast options, so I dont see one design happening anytime soon. I have a Lightning for my one design fix though :) 

One big questions about the cruisability of the J/99 would be the head. It seems, at least in factory photos, that the head in the bow has no sink or shower/sump pump. Can this be added? If you did, was a curtain installed to partition the storage area in the bow? Seems like it would be necessary as that is the main locker for the boat. Would love to hear how you handled that. 

 

On 6/11/2021 at 9:22 AM, steph2ma said:

OP,

 I think  167 is for sale. I raced the boat with the original owner and the boat left town in top form. I cannot speak to the current owner/condition. J109 is an easy boat to own.

Do you happen to know the vessel name then/now? 

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13 hours ago, LISlubber said:

One big questions about the cruisability of the J/99 would be the head. It seems, at least in factory photos, that the head in the bow has no sink or shower/sump pump.

Sailed alot of miles in boats that had no shower, and never used the sink in the head.  Its not luxury, but you can brush your teeth in the galley sink, and take a shower on deck with a sunshower or with a hose/shower head run to aft end of the cockpit.  Its all a question of "how comfortable" do you need to be.  Owned a J/109 for 4 years.  Loved it. Cruised it a bunch.  Never showered in the head, and mostly brushed my teeth at the galley sink as there was a bunch more room.  That was me and my family, so not saying that's the way you should cruise...but heads on sailboats under 40 feet are pretty small and pretty tight...

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19 hours ago, LISlubber said:

no shower/sump pump. Can this be added?

If you want an internal shower then the 99 is probably not the boat for you. I don't think it comes with a hot water system from the factory anyway.

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The answer is obvious, aside from the shower.  J/111.  Lower cost than a J/99, faster than a J/109, and better in LIS light air than either.  Has a sink forward, but no shower.  Went down that road last year.  Super, super happy with our choice.  One local 109 owner switched to a 111 this year and another 109 owner is thinking 111 once the 109 sells.  

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On 6/15/2021 at 10:48 AM, LISlubber said:

Do you happen to know the vessel name then/now? 

It was Double Eagle, now Tomoka

PM me with any specific hull questions as I maintain the class database.

Steele's post is right on with what to look for on J/109s.

J/109 - J/111 comparison.  The J/111 will be faster in all conditions and rates very well in ORC.  Three J/111s cleaned up at NYYC Annual last weekend in ORC E.   It's 2000 lbs lighter and has a longer waterline.  That being said, you'll find the interior on the J/109 much more habitable if you do any cruising or weekends aboard. The J/109 has a more active OD fleet in your area if you want to do OD events.

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