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4 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

When I sold it a surveyor (NA) remarked he was surprised at the absence of even a superficial crack anywhere in the boat (composite). He also expressed surprise at the condition of the cf mast as not even needing a new clear coat.

That's an impressive testament to the quality of Pogo construction, esp since you raced the boat hard.   I was surprised that you sold the boat, given how much enjoyment you reported getting out of her.

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It’s an interesting take on Lagoons priorities that they are using twice as much ply for the cabinets as for the main load bearing bulkhead…

Dont' be dissin' IKEA by comparing it to Lagoon construction!

Re the Leopard 44 1) Just gluing the cockpit sole to the structure underneath no tabbing 2) probably seats bolted to aluminum plates laminated into the sole, drilled and tapped. Not fun to r

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

That's an impressive testament to the quality of Pogo construction, esp since you raced the boat hard.   I was surprised that you sold the boat, given how much enjoyment you reported getting out of her.

Hiya TL,

Yeah me too. I ended up being a bit of a pawn in a  pretty grubby vendetta by some club and national body execs that forced me to get out of the sport for a while. If I do get back into it, I'll for sure be looking up Structures (and JPK, same philosophy).

Who knows, maybe mustache foils aka a Figaro III on a cruiser will be a thing by then :)

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Sorry to hear about that vendetta, Shaggy. And sorry to drag up the bad memories for you.   I thought that if anyone was out to get you, it would be the whales :D 

Yes, Structures and JPK seem to be on a similar path: both build very well-engineered, light boats with a heritage in the huge French shorthanded scene.  The main difference seems to be that Pogo is optimised for downhill sleighrides, whereas JPK keeps a closer eye on IRC ratings and upwind performance.

It will be interesting to see whether foils hit the fast cruising scene, and whether they are beaten to it by the scow bows with which Sam Manuard is dominating the Class 40.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

It will be interesting to see whether foils hit the fast cruising scene, and whether they are beaten to it by the scow bows with which Sam Manuard is dominating the Class 40.

I think foils and cruising are bit iffy. They take room from inside or outside and are not forgiving in collisions. But scow bows are likely as they will bring more room to forepeak.

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13 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Nah, it wont 

 

I know nothing about this sort of thing, but why are the foils pointed inboard?  Seems that stability would be far greater with the foil pointing outboard.

Perhaps it is all about interference when coming along side other boats/docks/piles?

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Lagoon has sealed its business fate by accusing the owners of their yachts of abusing them. These bulkheads have failed in the same location and on boats that have not been through hurricanes or seen particularly heavy use. Whether these failures are a design or manufacturing flaw is irrelevant to the future of the company. What is relevant is Lagoon’s unscrupulous approach of dealing with the problem by blaming their customers. Lagoon has violated the trust its customers put in them to provide a safe and reliable product.
 

Lagoon will go bankrupt due to the lawsuits it will be burdened with and/or by the loss of its customer base.

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2 hours ago, Capt Steve said:

Lagoon will go bankrupt due to the lawsuits it will be burdened with and/or by the loss of its customer base.

Huh?  I thought that they already responded to the pressure by offering free inspections and free repairs.  So why will there be lawsuits?

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5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Huh?  I thought that they already responded to the pressure by offering free inspections and free repairs.  So why will there be lawsuits?

Following the free inspection I think they will tell you you sailed in waves with rigging too tight..

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3 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

Following the free inspection I think they will tell you you sailed in waves with rigging too tight..

That's not the impression i got from Laguna's statement.   If you are right, there would be a lot of owners even more angry that their hopes have been raised and then dashed.  And Laguna's reputation for honesty would be trashed, so it would be a v dumb move, much more destructive than not offering anything.

I dunno which of will turn out to be right, but your certain prediction is actually just pessimistic speculation dressed up as fact.

7 hours ago, Capt Steve said:

Lagoon will go bankrupt due to the lawsuits it will be burdened with and/or by the loss of its customer base.

Why not just wait and see how this plays out?

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10 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

That's not the impression i got from Laguna's statement.   If you are right, there would be a lot of owners even more angry that their hopes have been raised and then dashed.  And Laguna's reputation for honesty would be trashed, so it would be a v dumb move, much more destructive than not offering anything.

I dunno which of will turn out to be right, but your certain prediction is actually just pessimistic speculation dressed up as fact.

Why not just wait and see how this plays out?

Because customers expect corporate slime to shit on them after decades of it happening, so they are cynical.

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Class action suits are get all the press, great to follow on line...

If they have to issue engineering docs to repair them, I wonder if the Bene 40 owners will ask for a grounding repair manual next??
 

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

So the boat whose interior looks like an IKEA showroom turns out to have similar rigidity to IKEA flatpack furniture.

Dont' be dissin' IKEA by comparing it to Lagoon construction!

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On the positive side, I think it's only fair to acknowledge that this is evidence of the broad range of engineering talent with the Beneteau Group.

They don't just make BendyToy.  They also make CreakyToy.

Yeah, CreakyToy lacks the keel-falling-off feature of BendyToy, but I guess you can't have everything.

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I sail out of the Ala Wai Marina here in Waikiki.  We’ve got about 700 slips (depending on how many the state has allowed to rot and fall into the ocean).  We had a real crowd out on the water today—why, I bet there were 15 non-commercial boats on the water AT THE SAME TIME!!  I had to actually alter course twice during a 3 hour sail to avoid a close pass.  Shocking.  Anyhow, the other 685 boats were in their slips, where they spend basically all of their time.  I suspect that 85% of Lagoon cats never do more than sheltered water day sailing a few times a year.  Single sheet plywood bulkheads with butt joints and no tabbing are probably ok for that.  So lagoon should just sell their boats with a big sign imprinted in the fiberglass over the saloon door: “Marina Queen: Must Not Be Taken Off Shore.”

 

Probably will increase sales to families where one of the adults hates being out on the water.

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5 hours ago, The great unwashed said:

I sail out of the Ala Wai Marina here in Waikiki.  We’ve got about 700 slips (depending on how many the state has allowed to rot and fall into the ocean).  We had a real crowd out on the water today—why, I bet there were 15 non-commercial boats on the water AT THE SAME TIME!!  I had to actually alter course twice during a 3 hour sail to avoid a close pass.  Shocking.  Anyhow, the other 685 boats were in their slips, where they spend basically all of their time.  I suspect that 85% of Lagoon cats never do more than sheltered water day sailing a few times a year.  Single sheet plywood bulkheads with butt joints and no tabbing are probably ok for that.  So lagoon should just sell their boats with a big sign imprinted in the fiberglass over the saloon door: “Marina Queen: Must Not Be Taken Off Shore.”

 

Probably will increase sales to families where one of the adults hates being out on the water.

In Asia they are Mahjong palaces with a mast

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On 8/30/2021 at 2:55 AM, TwoLegged said:

On the positive side, I think it's only fair to acknowledge that this is evidence of the broad range of engineering talent with the Beneteau Group.

They don't just make BendyToy.  They also make CreakyToy.

Yeah, CreakyToy lacks the keel-falling-off feature of BendyToy, but I guess you can't have everything.

What are you saying?  How dare you?  CreakyToy's keel has fallen off at the factory prior to delivery... 

Don't diss what you don't know......

 

(this is sarcasm.. just in case it was not obvious )

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44 minutes ago, h20man said:

What are you saying?  How dare you?  CreakyToy's keel has fallen off at the factory prior to delivery... 

So it's kinda like how the kids today buy jeans that are already worn out, with faded colour and holes in the knee.

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On 9/2/2021 at 2:18 PM, TwoLegged said:

So it's kinda like how the kids today buy jeans that are already worn out, with faded colour and holes in the knee.

I see you have NO FASHION SENSE...  it costs a lot more to have someone wear your pants into fragments of thread  holding holes together....  That is why they are expensive... and... as you know.. the more money one spends on something.. the better it must be....  (or the longer it shall take one to accept the reality that it is NOT necessarily better.. )

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On 9/2/2021 at 11:18 PM, TwoLegged said:

So it's kinda like how the kids today buy jeans that are already worn out, with faded colour and holes in the knee.

Today?  They started selling them in the 80's, they never had the cred of real worn out in jeans though cause usually the holes were too even.

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On 8/4/2021 at 1:33 AM, TwoLegged said:

Ruminator, for someone quite new to CA, you are showing a remarkable determination to insult people.  Probably not the best way to enter any group.

 

Is this a new iteration of an old sock, or truly a new user??

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^ WOW. That thing is pulling itself apart!

That interior pig sty stressed me out as much as the boat falling apart.

Scary to think was going on on deck... Couldn't be good! The only nautical term the videographer knew was bulkhead and he's a boat owner!

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I just realised that one of SA's great mysteries has been solved.

We no longer need to wonder what happened to HotRod after the 3200sft catamaran fell apart.  It seems that he got to pass on his construction techniques to a prolific cat builder ...

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On 11/24/2021 at 1:33 PM, side241 said:

Hello,  Has anyone found similar problems with the bulkheads on the Lagoon 440?  Now I'm worried.  Thanks!

Ben

Can we assume you own one?

ANY boat can have a one-off problem besides for endemic issues, so for your own peace of mind you might want to have good surveyor take a look.

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Can we assume you own one?

ANY boat can have a one-off problem besides for endemic issues, so for your own peace of mind you might want to have good surveyor take a look.

Lagoon should make the door trim that hides the bulkheads far more easier to remove maybe clear polycarbonate which would be a strong statement of their faith in their product… actually that won’t address the general delaminating and separation issues reaching from stem to stern as exampled by Colin so this raises the subject of how many professional surveyors would be prepared to put their name to any document regarding the structural integrity of any Lagoon product.

 

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33 minutes ago, Priscilla said:

Lagoon should make the door trim that hides the bulkheads far more easier to remove maybe clear polycarbonate which would be a strong statement of their faith in their product… actually that won’t address the general delaminating and separation issues reaching from stem to stern as exampled by Colin so this raises the subject of how many professional surveyors would be prepared to put their name to any document regarding the structural integrity of any Lagoon product.

 

So if you buy one, no one will do a survey?

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Can we assume you own one?

ANY boat can have a one-off problem besides for endemic issues, so for your own peace of mind you might want to have good surveyor take a look.

No surveyor will take apart woodwork to get to the problem areas. Owner has to do all that

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To be fair these issues apply to most production boats. I have seen similar issues on Bavarias, Beneteau, Hanse etc. I have seen bulkheads not touching the sides/deck of the boat, failed & shoddy or non existent tabbing. Bonding failure and generally inferior build quality. These things are cheap. They cut corners to make them cheap. They are built by factory workers not boat builders, in facilities far from the sea, where the labour is cheap.

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