Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Yacht Trader has lots of charter boats with the “sustained damage during hurricane Irma” disclaimers.  Some seemingly minor, and others appear to be close to total losses.  In the case of the one below I would think the insurance would have already stepped in here, are they just selling what’s left to try to make some more money on top?   I am probably a year out from buying but there are some former Moorings and Sunsail boats that look to fit my needs.  Wondering about some of these that are missing masts, or other major damages.  I don’t think I could ever bring myself to go after a project like that, but curious who does with so many listed.  
 

I know the topic has been beaten to death in some forums, but there seem to be lots of pros and cons of buying one of these former fleet boats.   
 

Thanks for any info.  After a decade of lurking, I finally had a reason to post something!   
 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2016/beneteau-moorings-42-3-3724159/

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's 85% fucked. Run away. I'm not sure I would even consider a hurricane boat that had been in charter. Beat to shit to start with then beat to shit.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

That boat in good condition is around $140K or so.   They show no mast or boom.   A lot of gear is missing from the deck including the winches.   Engine may be trash.   Interior requires a massive amount of work.    Boat took a beating - the structural grid may have separated from the hull.   It may take $140K to fix the boat up and then it would always be a "salvage" boat.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I totally agree that anyone in their right mind would ever touch one of these… but does anyone?   I would assume they list them this way for a reason.  I have seen others still 140K+ with no rigging at all.   Are they just hoping the really idealistic project guy comes along and picks one up?   
 

I understand the beaten up idea with these boats, even the non hurricane ones.  I guess in my optimistic mind they are decently well maintained in the fleet as to not break down and cut into revenue.  I tend to think of them as being slightly more well treated than your average Hertz car, but maybe not.  What stinks is for a cruiser based on the West Coast of Florida, the former charter boats check a lot of boxes… shoal draft, a/c, easy single handling, bow thruster, etc.   I guess like anything else there are good and bad examples, so a good survey is key.   

Link to post
Share on other sites

I helped get a boat together for a delivery that was BVI hurricane sale.  There were some obvious issues you could see were poorly repaired, but some others that were hiding and didn't show up till halfway to Tahiti. That Ad is insane. The boat is scrap period, disposal fees that's it. The pics alone are a horror story let alone what you would find looking into it.  I have some friends who have rebuilt hurricane damaged boats and they are fine.  Both were very well built and the damage was something they had the skills to deal with.  Run away from anything like  that Ad.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Value of that boat, as is, where is, is slightly to moderately less than -0-. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jjbrund said:

I guess in my optimistic mind they are decently well maintained in the fleet as to not break down and cut into revenue.  I tend to think of them as being slightly more well treated than your average Hertz car, but maybe not

BWAAA HAAA HAAA.  Charterers are worse then car renters. Charter companies fix them up as quick and dirty as they can in the 24 hours between charters and send them out again. Their engines and sails get abused.

Unless you really, really like grinding glass I'd stay away. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Zonker said:

BWAAA HAAA HAAA.  Charterers are worse then car renters. Charter companies fix them up as quick and dirty as they can in the 24 hours between charters and send them out again. Their engines and sails get abused.

Unless you really, really like grinding glass I'd stay away. 

I was wondering why the repairs in the photos were done attempted in the first place.  Maybe at first the usual crew didn’t realize that it was a hurricane boat, not a charter turn-around.  :lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been following another thread on "desirable and undesirable characteristics of cruising yachts".

This boat doesn't even make it up to the undesirable category.  I mean the first pic, with one small-ish patch, and I thought OK, maybe.  But clicking through the rest of the pics makes the Yaba duo* look like shrewd investors.

You mentioned that these boats have AC, and so forth, but I'm pretty sure those amenities are long gone/destroyed.

 

* youtubers who bought a rotten and sinking wooden schooner, on which they are spending gobs of money.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, jjbrund said:

Yacht Trader has lots of charter boats with the “sustained damage during hurricane Irma” disclaimers.  Some seemingly minor, and others appear to be close to total losses.  In the case of the one below I would think the insurance would have already stepped in here, are they just selling what’s left to try to make some more money on top?   I am probably a year out from buying but there are some former Moorings and Sunsail boats that look to fit my needs.  Wondering about some of these that are missing masts, or other major damages.  I don’t think I could ever bring myself to go after a project like that, but curious who does with so many listed.  
 

I know the topic has been beaten to death in some forums, but there seem to be lots of pros and cons of buying one of these former fleet boats.   
 

Thanks for any info.  After a decade of lurking, I finally had a reason to post something!   
 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2016/beneteau-moorings-42-3-3724159/

Salvaged lead and aluminum is the only value. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Autonomous said:

People can recognize and accept a car that is beyond repair. 

Something about fiberglass that prevents this ability.

Would you buy a flood damaged car that was a demolition derby veteran:rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some dear friends are rebuilding a storm damaged Tartan 4400. but that's a Tartan 4400, and the work is being supervised by Tim Jackett.

I also met some folks having a storm damaged Hinckley SW 52 rebuilt by BBY. But that was a Hinckley at Brooklin Boat Yard.

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Ishmael said:

That's 85% fucked. Run away. I'm not sure I would even consider a hurricane boat that had been in charter. Beat to shit to start with then beat to shit.

I would go with 95% fucked. It is worse than starting from scratch. At least when you build a boat from a bare hull, you start out with something that is structurally sound.

The only value that boat has is the scrap metal value of the keel, assuming you have the capacity to get the keel off the  boat and to the metal recycler.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So….  What your saying is don’t buy an ex charter boat and stay miles away from anything with “hurricane damage”.  Pretty much what I assumed, but always good to have some strangers’ opinions from the internet!   I’m sure the appeal (non damaged charter fleets) is there for a pretty big boat for a decent price, but I guess you’re buying a lot of unknowns.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/9/2021 at 9:29 PM, jjbrund said:

... Are they just hoping the really idealistic project guy comes along and picks one up?   

There's a sucker born every minute.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Irma was almost four years ago.  The decent salvage boats were gone a while ago.  I was aboard several that were put on a ship and sent up to Newport for yards to work on during the winter months.  They were in pretty good shape with intact rigs and compared to that boat very minor hull damage.  Even so, about 25% of them were scraped because they were still going to be too expensive to fix.

Right now there is a skilled labor shortage, shortage of parts and prices are through to roof.  IMO, that boat has a negative value.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/10/2021 at 9:53 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

Salvaged lead and aluminum is the only value. 

Pretty sure the keel is iron.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/10/2021 at 10:55 AM, kent_island_sailor said:
On 6/10/2021 at 12:34 AM, Autonomous said:

People can recognize and accept a car that is beyond repair. 

Something about fiberglass that prevents this ability.

Would you buy a flood damaged car that was a demolition derby veteran

For the win

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/10/2021 at 7:31 PM, jjbrund said:

So….  What your saying is don’t buy an ex charter boat and stay miles away from anything with “hurricane damage”.  Pretty much what I assumed, but always good to have some strangers’ opinions from the internet!   I’m sure the appeal (non damaged charter fleets) is there for a pretty big boat for a decent price, but I guess you’re buying a lot of unknowns.  

It's all about minimizing the unknowns. You would need a better-than-most-surveyors ability to quickly assess the condition of every system on/in the boat, and a spreadsheet of updated priced on everything that needs to be replaced., and no sense of the value of your own labor.

The analogy to cars is apt... a car is also a fancy shape, but for some reason people emotionally grasp that cars can look great and have zero fuction. Boats, people see a hull and they imagine it sail-sail-sailing over the bounding waves, no mast no engine no sails no equipment, somehow that's no problem right?

I have many acquaintances who've broken their budget and/or their dreams trying to rebuild wrecked boats that they thought were a bargain.

As for why they advertised this junker, well, if you don't ask you don't get.

- DSK

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Scrap iron value then - $242 per ton. Don't spend it all in one place ;)

Didn't realize it was that high, that's why I get so many calls looking for junk equipment these days. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

The analogy to cars is apt... a car is also a fancy shape, but for some reason people emotionally grasp that cars can look great and have zero fuction.

Got one sitting in my yard ATM. Still runs fine, no rust in the body, couple minor dents. Manual shift gate is a bit funky but it doesn't jump out of gear or anything like that.

But - it's 30 years old, the headlining is falling down, there's a ton of minor things and lately it seems to have a cracked heater hose or core under the dash.

No fucking way I'm spending the time/effort needed to get in there and see what's going on, and no way I'm paying someone else to do it. It's worth maybe $500 on a good day.

So I'll probably scrap the car. I've had my money's worth anyway, I've been driving it for 20 years.

FKT

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/11/2021 at 2:45 AM, delta boy said:

Irma was almost four years ago.  The decent salvage boats were gone a while ago.  I was aboard several that were put on a ship and sent up to Newport for yards to work on during the winter months.  They were in pretty good shape with intact rigs and compared to that boat very minor hull damage.  Even so, about 25% of them were scraped because they were still going to be too expensive to fix.

tbf, Newport yard rates are likely to be high enough to make a lot of repairs unviable.

But even assuming completely free labour, the answers above to the OP @jjbrund are sound: run.  Like Usain Bolt.

This was only ever a skimpily-built, hard-used, short-life boat.  Now it has been trashed and well gear-stripped.

Which raises the question: what's the negative value?  The hull has to be stripped of metals, which is a lot of labour, then broken up and transported to approved landfill, which won't be cheap on a small island.  The offsets are low: maybe $500 for the engine, similar for the iron keel.  So I'm guessing $2K+ to turn a profit on breaking her, maybe $5K.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"Which raises the question: what's the negative value?  The hull has to be stripped of metals, which is a lot of labour, then broken up and transported to approved landfill, which won't be cheap on a small island.  The offsets are low: maybe $500 for the engine, similar for the iron keel.  So I'm guessing $2K+ to turn a profit on breaking her, maybe $5K."

On income side:  Not sure you could net $500 on the engine. As far as I know there is no scrap metal yard to sell the iron.  I had relatives in the scrap business and location is important.  

On expenses side:  Assuming the will give you the boat for free.  Yard storage starts.  US citizen may have covid travel restrictions.  The yard is busy and not all that cheap.  How are you going to transport the waste to an approved landfill?  Where is the new owner of this jewel going to stay while they bust their ass to maybe make $5K.  

I've estimated many projects in my times.  Mostly for commercial endeavors.  When I've lost money is when I've been overly optimistic on unknowns.  

The Op was to restore this boat.  They are from Florida, so I based my assumptions on that.  I believe there will be a better market for used boats eventually.  Way too many inexperienced boaters are buying boats out of their capabilities.  They will end up in the market.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, delta boy said:

On income side:  Not sure you could net $500 on the engine. As far as I know there is no scrap metal yard to sell the iron.  I had relatives in the scrap business and location is important.  

On expenses side:  Assuming the will give you the boat for free.  Yard storage starts.  US citizen may have covid travel restrictions.  The yard is busy and not all that cheap.  How are you going to transport the waste to an approved landfill?  Where is the new owner of this jewel going to stay while they bust their ass to maybe make $5K.  

It makes no sense for a foreigner to fly in for a scrapping job.  I should have said that I was assuming that the boat would be scrapped by the usual sort of people who do that sort of work: low-income locals with contacts who can hire in machinery cheaply. Around my way in the west of Ireland a few phone calls find those guys.

In this case that would be a digger to break the boat up and load the parts onto a truck: hull and deck components to landfill, keel to a metal recycler. if there is one, else to landfill.  Or if you're creative, maybe find someone who can use the keel as a mooring, or a mega-anvil.

I was assuming that the engine would probably be fixable by someone with time but little money, but I take your point that it might just be scrap.

So costs:

Say a few good angle-grinders plus blades to remove the metal.  Say $300.

100 hours labour for the metal-removers, at a local rate of say $5/hr.  Be generous, and double that: $1000.

Two days of a 10-tonne digger, to break up the hull and load it onto the truck.  Say $250/day, total $500

Landfill fee at $100/tonne: say 7 tonnes including keel and engine, so $700

Yard fee for storage: say $200/week, maybe 2 weeks to get everything lined up: $400.

Total $2900.   The salvager wants some money for themself, so I reckon minimum $5000 fee to scrap.  Of course, my costs may be out, so make that plus or minus 50%.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

It makes no sense for a foreigner to fly in for a scrapping job.  I should have said that I was assuming that the boat would be scrapped by the usual sort of people who do that sort of work: low-income locals with contacts who can hire in machinery cheaply. Around my way in the west of Ireland a few phone calls find those guys.

In this case that would be a digger to break the boat up and load the parts onto a truck: hull and deck components to landfill, keel to a metal recycler. if there is one, else to landfill.  Or if you're creative, maybe find someone who can use the keel as a mooring, or a mega-anvil.

I was assuming that the engine would probably be fixable by someone with time but little money, but I take your point that it might just be scrap.

So costs:

Say a few good angle-grinders plus blades to remove the metal.  Say $300.

100 hours labour for the metal-removers, at a local rate of say $5/hr.  Be generous, and double that: $1000.

Two days of a 10-tonne digger, to break up the hull and load it onto the truck.  Say $250/day, total $500

Landfill fee at $100/tonne: say 7 tonnes including keel and engine, so $700

Yard fee for storage: say $200/week, maybe 2 weeks to get everything lined up: $400.

Total $2900.   The salvager wants some money for themself, so I reckon minimum $5000 fee to scrap.  Of course, my costs may be out, so make that plus or minus 50%.

 

 

Total 8K at least. There's a reason we don't see the homeless dragging dead boats to the recycler.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The company my brother worked for was called in from half way around the world to clean up hurricane boats (and other debris) numerous times. But I think the gummint paid them, ultimately, to get the stuff off the beach.  (I sent him a parts wish list a couple of times, but got nothing out of it.  No time to stop and take parts off.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Total 8K at least. There's a reason we don't see the homeless dragging dead boats to the recycler.

If the homeless had a few grand to finance the upfront costs, they probably wouldn't be homeless.

But someone with $10k of working capital could clear 3 boats without being paid upfront.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A cheap boat is seldom if ever cheap, every year another dreamer comes along eyes glazed over and fixated on "cheap" and the potential they see in the piece of shit that sits before them.

Six months or a year later the money is gone and there is very little to see on the boat for the money,  time and effort invested.

Suddenly then it is for sale with catchy phrases like all the hard work is done, the engine is almost new and along comes another dreamer.

As mentioned above some boats are worth rebuilding like Hinckley, Tartan.

An ex charter Bendytoy or a Hanse that been thru a hurricane? No thanks,  no amount of work is going to change the fact you are putting lipstick on a pig.

They are a production boat, all of the ply bulkheads, partitions and floorboards have been routered and no sealing of the edge grain done, the transmissions are likely to need fixing after charterers best efforts to go from full ahead to full astern in one easy motion.

The sails will be original supplied with the vessel with little broadseaming, little shape in fact the sails will look like they were cut and sewed by a thirteen year old and they probably were.

If the vessel shows signs of damage to the grid, walk away, don't look back there are only a handful of boats worth fixing at that point and they ain't production boats at the Toyota end of the production spectrum.

There will be a few of these boats fixed and for sale and they will not necessarily mention their somewhat checkered history, I recall a few Hugo boats popping up in places like Rhode Is and  places not actually affected by that particular Hurricane, watch out and use a surveyor.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

production boats at the Toyota end of the production spectrum.

Beneteau is no Toyota.

Toyotas are mass market, non-premium cars which sacrifice style and luxury for durability and exceptional customer service.  Their reliability is evidenced repeatedly in surveys of various forms, and heir maker has a hard-won reputation for standing by its products.

Beneteau is a mass-market producer, but in the last two decades it has won its market share by offering glossy interiors while using construction methods that are fragile and hard to repair.  Instead of standing by its customers, it hides from the info needed to do proper repairs.

Sure, Beneteau is not alone in this never-mind-the-keel-attachment-look-at-the-leather-seating approach to boat quality.  But it's a million miles from the Toyota approach.

If you want a car market equivalent to Beneteau, it's more like 1970s Ford.  Vehicle sin every size you can think of, with fancy seats, vinyl roof, all the toys of the day ... but a rustbucket body and an engine that won't last.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Beneteau is no Toyota.

Perhaps I picked the wrong analogy what I was trying to convey is there is only a few mass production boatbuilders, Beneteau produces 10,000 boats a year which when you think about it means they are being cranked out at a rate of 28 or so a day!

You cannot get a semi custom bespoke version, if you want extra special it’s all pretty much after market so in that vein they are mass market non premium.

I recall a time when Beneteau stood firmly behind their product they had a major clusterfuck in the mid eighties when a gel coat manufacturer supplied a gel coat they had changed the specs to without informing Beneteau it resulted in numerous boats developing bubbles and Beneteau fronted and paid to fix many millions of dollars worth.

Now like with many large corporations the bean counters prevail and bottom lines that give their shareholders a dividend have become more important and any major problems are met with indifference and a reluctance to admit any liability.

Oyster did the same built a couple of vessels that didn’t float too well and rather that pay serious coin they folded the company only to resurrect like Phoenix from the ashes a little later down the line not the same company same moulds tho and hopefully an improved building technique.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough, Navig8tor.  Yeah, Beneteau are one of only a few remaining mass market makers of cruising sailboats.  There's them and Hanse and Bavaria, and after that everyone else is much much smaller.  Apart from possibly Marlow-Hunter in the USA, tho I dunno what their output is these days.

43 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

I recall a time when Beneteau stood firmly behind their product they had a major clusterfuck in the mid eighties when a gel coat manufacturer supplied a gel coat they had changed the specs to without informing Beneteau it resulted in numerous boats developing bubbles and Beneteau fronted and paid to fix many millions of dollars worth.

Now like with many large corporations the bean counters prevail and bottom line

Yes, 70s and 80s Beneteaux have proved to be very durable, and they were well-supported.  And of course the switch to a f*ck-you style of customer service is not unique.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...