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Turnbuckle cotter pins or rings?


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So what do you use? I've seen recommendations for using pins, rings, and even what I think is safety wire. I don't drop the mast very often and I only really mess with the tune once or twice a year. Also, as I have looked around and on the majority of turnbuckles neither the cotter pins or cotter rings look like they would prevent the turnbuckle or threaded rod from turning. Are they done wrong or am I missing something? 

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I prefer rings were I can see or have to remove them periodically them and pins where I can't or don't.

It's amazing to me the number of people who put rings in turnbuckles and don't wrap them around the body, just through the threaded shaft. I noticed them done that way just now on the lifelines of a boat near mine.

Just little dangly bits doing absolutely nothing.

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14 minutes ago, Alberta said:

Velcro quick pins are my favourite unless the boat is too big for them

 

+1

And you can make your own with velcro and the right hardware if you need bigger sizes

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Cotter pins. Properly sized for the hole it’s going. Trimmed to length, ends filed smooth and bent open approximately 20%. 

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1 hour ago, Al Paca said:

Cotter pins. Properly sized for the hole it’s going. Trimmed to length, ends filed smooth and bent open approximately 20%. 

I see you read Rod Stephens as well. ;)

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I have seen a jib sheet snag a ring and just -flick- it was gone. If I hadn't been watching I wouldn't have noticed.

So cotter pins for me please.

 

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If you are only messing with it once a year, monel lock wire.  Easy no snags and will be secure.  I hate cotter pins, so avoid if at all possible.

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If more than one turnbuckle share a chainplate, a lashing through the turnbuckle body works fine. It's been done on J22 and J24's for years. If you don't need to adjust much, cotter pins and rigging tape.

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I prefer toothpicks, the little coloured ones you get to spear pieces of cheese and Viennese sausages. If they break, put something bigger in, like a 4d nail.

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The majority of boat round here use rings and on my boats I always tape them, I've seen several ripped off particularly those at deck / jib sheet level). If I were long term seagoing, I'd use correctly sized cotter pins, with the turnbuckle wired as they do on aircraft components.

Never seen those velcro pins before... Time to investigate..

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I prefer toothpicks, the little coloured ones you get to spear pieces of cheese and Viennese sausages. If they break, put something bigger in, like a 4d nail.

Oh surely it should be a quick blow fuse...B)

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18 hours ago, ordkhntr said:

So what do you use? I've seen recommendations for using pins, rings, and even what I think is safety wire. I don't drop the mast very often and I only really mess with the tune once or twice a year. Also, as I have looked around and on the majority of turnbuckles neither the cotter pins or cotter rings look like they would prevent the turnbuckle or threaded rod from turning. Are they done wrong or am I missing something? 

Don’t know your project 

in the perfect world I prefer to use locking nuts

the initial expense pays off over time  

E1F3CB20-20C8-4CD7-8F72-1818E78CD420.jpeg

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15 hours ago, Zonker said:

I have seen a jib sheet snag a ring and just -flick- it was gone. If I hadn't been watching I wouldn't have noticed.

So cotter pins for me please.

 

I have seen a leg snag a ring and riiiiiiiiiip.  They are bleeding.  I would have noticed from the screaming, even if I hadn't been watching.  Velcro wrapped cotter pins for me.

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Don’t know your project 

in the perfect world I prefer to use locking nuts

the initial expense pays off over time  

E1F3CB20-20C8-4CD7-8F72-1818E78CD420.jpeg

Closed barrel turnbuckle with "lock" nuts - worst possible choice IMO

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6 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Closed barrel turnbuckle with "lock" nuts - worst possible choice IMO

Yup. That is what my tractor three-point has. Thoroughly agricultural. At best an architectural bit of glam found below ritzy deck railings. However, I do have them in one place in the yacht: The saloon overhead where the mast braces the mast partner hardware down. Beneficial because my bride's flowing locks pass closely by on her way to our love nest. 

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21 hours ago, yoyo said:

I like the Brion Toss version using silicone bronze tig wire.  Easy install, easy removal.

Quick search and I found a video link - about 4-minutes into the video.  I dont do facebook but it does play.

Brion Toss - Cool Sail Rigging Tips #1 – Turnbuckles & Pins (facebook.com)

 

Wow, I could watch that guy all day long. Super concise and pleasant delivery. Thanks!

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Those types closed barrel turnbuckles have articulation in only one plane (at the pin). Likely to fatigue fail at the weld.

 

 

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I have split rings on my turnbuckles (around the turnbuckle body, SJB :)). They're adjusted so infrequently that I'm thinking about using lockwire on them next time I adjust them. Headsails don't touch them unless I'm flaking them.

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1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

Brion doesn't seem to have a problem with them...

"Didn't" - (he passed away last year).  That might be some boat where the boat came to him with those turnbuckles. A picture of him adjusting them isn't really his stamp of approval.

The upper end isn't where I'm worried. It is attached to a somewhat flexible wire, often with a swage stud. The lower end, if attached to a chainplate can only articulate in one direction.

image.png.283be836b443f19f498f8e843a1291d0.png

You can also get closed body turnbuckles with toggle ends. So I'm not opposed to closed body turnbuckles. Just the ones without a lower toggle fitting like the one above. Some chainplate are oriented fore/aft, some transversely. As shrouds load and unload I think most of the fluctuating lateral load is sideways. I would think fore/aft chainplates with this type of turnbuckle are more likely to fail than transversely oriented one, but that's just a guess.

Here's a typical open body turnbuckle with a toggle end.  If you attach the lower end to a chainplate it can flex in any direction.

image.png.288bc4c7007e382686820be2a42388d8.png

 

 

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3 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

Brion doesn't seem to have a problem with them...

 

untitled.jpg

Most likely that has a toggle on the bottom for articulation. Its not required at the top. 

I do prefer the open barrel style, you can see where the thread is at much easier, can't tell with those ones, but a lot of the cheaper ones are all stainless as well & have a tendency to gall. 

image.thumb.png.656f61d37396d3c626e4c2491c7b2cf9.png

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Back when I had stayed rigs the rings were quickly excised in favor of carefully installed cotter pins.

No magic disappearing rings and if done right, no snags.

Free standing lug rigs now, life is so much simpler.

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For those keeping score at home I went with rings (and wrapped them around the turnbuckle) and a bit of rigging tape to decrease the snagging opportunities. 

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10 hours ago, ordkhntr said:

For those keeping score at home I went with rings (and wrapped them around the turnbuckle) and a bit of rigging tape to decrease the snagging opportunities. 

just to have been safe, you should have gotten a new boat..

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1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

just to have been safe, you should have gotten a new boat..

A new production boat just means more work fixing details the builder doesn't have the budget to do to your standards.

A new high end custom boat means you hire a surveyor to check these details.

 

I was up till midnight last night making a list of things to inspect before taking delivery and probing questions to ask before the build starts.

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On 6/14/2021 at 10:43 AM, Autonomous said:

A new production boat just means more work fixing details the builder doesn't have the budget to do to your standards.

A new high end custom boat means you hire a surveyor to check these details.

 

I was up till midnight last night making a list of things to inspect before taking delivery and probing questions to ask before the build starts.

If there is any cored laminate anywhere on the boat, make sure they over-drill and epoxy fill the penetrations correctly.  More boats have died from this than just about any other cause.

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Velcro quick pins to permit rapid pre-race adjustment.  

Cotter pins taped in for longer periods.  White tape fixes everything. 

 

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disliking cotter pins I drill and carefully tap the holes for #10 x 28 x 5/8" s/s pan head screws.   Easy to do and lanocoat leaves them easy to remove.

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9 hours ago, Rain Man said:

If there is any cored laminate anywhere on the boat, make sure they over-drill and epoxy fill the penetrations correctly.  More boats have died from this than just about any other cause.

On the boat I just sold I did that to all the penetrations through cored laminate. The new one will get the same treatment. 

It's a shame how many boats die for want of the relatively small investment involved in proper penetration preparation.

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14 hours ago, Irrational 14 said:

G10 pin threaded into SS Bullet Cap. Held w/Shock cord. Velcro is redundant but I keep it on for Coastal stuff.

 

thumbnail_IMG_0392.jpg

That’s (one) of the most idiotic things I’ve ever seen on a boat.  

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13 hours ago, Autonomous said:

On the boat I just sold I did that to all the penetrations through cored laminate. The new one will get the same treatment. 

It's a shame how many boats die for want of the relatively small investment involved in proper penetration preparation.

My GF agrees, proper penetration preparation is never optional. We call it PPP.

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2 hours ago, Al Paca said:

That’s (one) of the most idiotic things I’ve ever seen on a boat.  

I think it matches his user name.

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It is not that complicated. When I campaigned the fussy race boat that needed shroud tweaking as conditions changed a tiny piece of line secured the barrels to each other. Simple and cheap. The standing parts could not turn freely because they are restrained at the other end. So they are not a safety issue. We never noticed the adjustment changing while sailing. Actually I have never noticed a cotter pin doing any work at all. 

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2 hours ago, Borracho said:

Actually I have never noticed a cotter pin doing any work at all. 

This shows how much work they can do by demonstrating what happens when one goes missing from the shift linkage.

"For want of a nail... "

 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

This shows how much work they can do by demonstrating what happens when one goes missing from the shift linkage.

"For want of a nail... "

 

Heh. Yeah. I could have been more precise. I have never seen a cotter pin up against a turnbuckle body - actually showing signs of having prevented rotation. Tying with a bit of line seems secure enough for a buoy racer. Securing a pin in a shift lever is a place where a cotter pin actually does some work. 

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Monel seizing wire.  Couple of turns through the hole in the thread and round the turnbuckle body, twist up a pigtail and tuck into the turnbuckle.  No nasty sticky out bits, neat, no tape required and dead quick to make and cut off. 

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16 hours ago, longy said:

Never say never - I've seen a handfull of cotter pins bent around the stud from the wire rotating. YMMV

Maybe a moron with a wrench? What could do that? Worth investigating.

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On 6/17/2021 at 8:20 PM, Autonomous said:

On the boat I just sold I did that to all the penetrations through cored laminate. The new one will get the same treatment. 

It's a shame how many boats die for want of the relatively small investment involved in proper penetration preparation.

Case in point: the J-Bird TP 50 restoration.  A few hours of work would have saved hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars (AUD).  The boat should have been scrapped but it got lucky and found some caring owners.

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17 hours ago, Motorman said:

Threaded for 10/24; no nuts.  Goop the screw with Lanocoat 

So you are using an unlocked screw as a safety on a critical screw? 
 

You tapped a hole because cotter pins are so hard to use?

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yes and yes.  See your point but have done so with two prior boats and have not yet found one to loosen, even after long passages.  Easy enough to include a lock washer, a good point and perhaps I will.  Note that if the bottle does rotate it blocks the screw from backing out.  I do dislike cotter pins, taping, removing, etc. in this application and can drill and tap the holes in about the time it takes me to properly install cotter pins so that there is nothing sharp.    

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