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260 Mass Shootings 160 Days, When Will it be Too Much?


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17 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

BS!!  Do not confuse numbers of guns with how hard it is or was to get them.  I bought my first AR-15 when I was a Sr in HS (< 18).  All I had to do was show a driver's license and sign a ledger confirming the sale.  No background check, no nothing.  I handed over my $400 in cash and walked out with it.  Took about 10 minutes.  I also bought several rifles before that through a mail order catalogue.  I had a British enfield .303 and a M-1 carbine.  When I was in middle school, I bought a Rem 1100 20 ga shotgun from my local club to compete in skeet competitions.  I was what.... 12?  

In the 70s and 80s and even into the 90s, you could buy a handgun or a rifle in any ACE hardware store and the transaction would take maybe 10 min, 15 if they were busy.  I bought an FN FAL at a Walmart in NC in the late 90s.  I signed a ledger with my name and DL and walked out with it.  

Educate yourself and stop coming off as a jackass.  Guns are WAAAAAY harder to purchase legally now.  It was weird that we had so few mass shootings back in the 60s, 70s and 80s despite the lack of gun laws.  I wonder what changed???

The only thing that changed is, the substantial volume of firearms out in the average idiot American public's hands.

But hey if your in the "Ill give you my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands" gun club, then that's why its far more difficult for you to be objective.

Which is obvious.

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Not offended at all. Not by anything you have said. Offended by the state of America.

But you'll never give up your personal armory without being forced to. So your just another member in the club.

It's kinda depressing when you realize there are quite a few folks who've simply decided we had it too good, and now need to tear it all down. I suppose a Great Depression and war every 3 generations

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4 minutes ago, Keith said:

The only thing that changed is, the substantial volume of firearms out in the average idiot American public's hands.

But hey if your in the "Ill give you my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands" gun club, then that's why its far more difficult for you to be objective.

Which is obvious.

Moving the goalposts when you are not winning your argument.  I gave you definitive examples of guns being FAR easier to purchase a long time ago when you claimed the reason there are so many guns in circulation is because it's too easy to purchase them.  Now you're changing it to the problem itself is there are just too many guns out there.  Make up your mind.  Note that our population has increased a lot since the 70s.  BLUF:  Guns are harder to buy now, not easier.  There were less mass shootings when guns were easier to get, so the supposed "ease" of getting guns is not the problem. 

Maybe, just maybe, the problem is that our society has changed such that it has encouraged people to kill each other more, value life less, and commit suicide more.  Address the root causes of that problem..... and you will decrease the number of mass shootings and gun violence.  

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6 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Then we are done. Please post a suggestion on how to contain gun violence.

I already did.

Just now, Burning Man said:

Maybe, just maybe, the problem is that our society has changed such that it has encouraged people to kill each other more, value life less, and commit suicide more.  Address the root causes of that problem..... and you will decrease the number of mass shootings and gun violence.  

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10 minutes ago, Keith said:

But hey if your in the "Ill give you my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands" gun club, then that's why its far more difficult for you to be objective.

Which is obvious.

You are wrong there again as well..... I have numerous times over the years here offered common sense gun control suggestions.  Pay attention.

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2 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

 

Maybe, just maybe, the problem is that our society has changed such that it has encouraged people to kill each other more, value life less, and commit suicide more.  Address the root causes of that problem..... and you will decrease the number of mass shootings and gun violence.  

You are almost right with this, add in a population with far, far, far, too easy access to firearms, and you've just about nailed it.

 

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3 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

You are wrong there again as well..... I have numerous times over the years here offered common sense gun control suggestions.  Pay attention.

But you'll never give up your personal armory without being forced to. So your just another member in the club.

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2 hours ago, Burning Man said:

You are wrong there again as well..... I have numerous times over the years here offered common sense gun control suggestions.  Pay attention.

Yet no one remembers

Just sayin'

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3 hours ago, Keith said:

"guns are much harder to get now than they were in the 60s,70s,and 80s."

The proliferation of firearms in America says, ya sure buddy, you must be smoking that quality B.C. bud.

The Merc is a racist idiot gun nut.

All that needs be said other than that the ignore button is your friend.

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3 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Again, more BS!  While guns are not exceedingly hard to buy legally, they are nowhere as easy as they were once upon a time when there were no mass shootings.  The number of guns purchased now compared to 1968 has fuck all to do with "ease" as it has to do with want. The more you try to restrict or ban something, the more people want it.  Same with booze in the 1920 and the same with drugs now.  As soon as you say you can't have something, people go out and get it before they can't.  I'm not blaming Obama himself for it, but the surge in gun sales, specifically AWs, spiked as soon as he got elected when there was even the whiff of a Dem in the WH and a Dem controlled congress.  Everyone remembered the AW ban under clinton and didn't want to get caught out.  When trump was elected, sales dropped.  When it became apparent biden was going to win or at least had a good chance - sales soared again.  Obviously the US cities burning all summer of 2020 fueled the gun and ammo sales as well.  

I'll say it one more fracking time.... the supposed "ease" of current gun sale processes has fuck all zero to do with gun crime.  Legal purchases are nowhere near as easy as they once were back when there were hardly any mass murders.  What changed?

Folks feel the need to get a gun cause their fucknut neighbor has 18.

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2 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I already did.

Except all countries have the same cultural influences, but only the US has the death problem.

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4 hours ago, Keith said:

"guns are much harder to get now than they were in the 60s,70s,and 80s."

The proliferation of firearms in America says, ya sure buddy, you must be smoking that quality B.C. bud.

You may not like it, but he's correct.

One possible caveat - maybe guns are a lot cheaper now than then and therefore more affordable and easier to purchase. But WRT general availability and laws, he's right.

Want to actually get some respect? Don't try arguing bullshit. We've seen how that goes.

FKT

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4 hours ago, Burning Man said:

.......... now that I pointed out that the majority of those shootings are black kids shooting each other......  

So that's OK then. You know those people breed like rabbits. White people really need lots of guns to feel safe. Besides, having a bunch of guns makes you feel powerful, worthy of respect, and possibly a bit bigger-dicked.

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40 minutes ago, Happy said:

White people really need lots of guns to feel safe.

Been saying that for a while now.

The gun problem is another manifestation of endemic racism.

The 'go to school and shoot the cunt that insulted them yesterday' is a manifestation of watching too many Hollywood westerns.

I see now why Crocodile Dundee was such a novelty in the US.  I didn't get it at the time.  No gun. 

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Austin: 13 Shot, Shooter Not In Custody

AUSTIN, Texas -- A shooting in a busy entertainment district in downtown Austin, Texas injured 13 people early Saturday, and police said the suspected shooter was not in custody. 

Two of the injured people were in critical condition but as of the news conference at 4 a.m. local time, no one had died, interim Austin Police Chief Joseph Chacon said. 

Gunfire erupted just before 1:30 a.m. along 6th Street, a popular area filled with bars and restaurants. The street was barricaded to keep out vehicle traffic at the time of the shooting, Chacon said. 

It was unclear what sparked the shooting.



https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/injured-shooting-downtown-austin-texas-78236667 

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Another mass shooting - this time in Savannah Georgia?

At least 1 person has been killed and 8 others have been injured in a mass shooting on a residential street in Savannah, Georgia, local officials and witnesses say. Only few details are currently available. 

The incident happened at around 9 p.m. on Friday when officers were called for a shooting in the 200 block of Avery Street, a residential area near the Savannah River. It is part of the Fred Wessels Homes neighborhood. 

Bianca Johnson, a spokeswoman for the Savannah Police Department, told BNO News that nine people were found with gunshot wounds, including one person who died. Johnson initially said two people died but later issued a correction, saying only one death had been confirmed. 

Several other victims were being treated at area hospitals for injuries which appeared to be serious or critical, Johnson said. Two further victims, a 2-year-old who was struck in the foot area and a 13-year-old, suffered non-life threatening injuries. 

https://bnonews.com/index.php/2021/06/at-least-9-shot-in-savannah-georgia/


 

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jfc, what a mess, is the violence thing

this is where it goes: to epidemic status

my brain is numb now

and the matter of the outdoor guns will be faced by the sc in october

all the best to us

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13 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I already did. (etc, as in we must address the "root problems".)

"Root problems" is a euphamism, for "people like Fluffy Jeff eventually piss off the brothers." Just sayin'.

 

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13 hours ago, Keith said:
13 hours ago, Burning Man said:

You are wrong there again as well..... I have numerous times over the years here offered common sense gun control suggestions.  Pay attention.

But you'll never give up your personal armory without being forced to. So your just another member in the club.

That's because being forced to give up my armory is neither common sense gun control nor will it do anything whatsoever to address the root causes of the issues.  Taking my gunz away will not even stop the "mass shootings" in BL's list above, since I'm willing to bet that the large majority of those drive-by shooters didn't purchase their gunz legally in the first place.  

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11 hours ago, justsomeguy! said:
15 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Mass exodus??  To where pray tell?  Good luck with that.

Anywhere other than the US.

Don't be stupid.

I'm not the one being stupid and suggesting a mass exodus to somewhere else.  What country or countries are going to take in 100+ million USanians?  You obviously haven't thought this through very well.

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11 hours ago, Raz&#x27;r said:

Except all countries have the same cultural influences, but only the US has the death problem.

Nope sorry, that is simply not true.  I think we have some unique societal issues going on that other countries might have a smidge of here and there, but not the totality or the scale that we do.  

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1 hour ago, Knut Grotzki said:

- the same that killers starting mass shootings think

Every time I see the "cold dead hands" comment I think "Whatever it takes".

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10 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

You may not like it, but he's correct.

One possible caveat - maybe guns are a lot cheaper now than then and therefore more affordable and easier to purchase. But WRT general availability and laws, he's right.

Want to actually get some respect? Don't try arguing bullshit. We've seen how that goes.

FKT

Thank you.  It drives me crazy in these gun discussions when people will not accept and stick to basic facts.  The fact is that guns are far more difficult to purchase legally now than in the past.  I think the problem is that its still not hard enough for the grabbers who are dismayed that the number of new gun owners grows by the day.  Their idea of "difficult" is basically people should be completely "unable" to purchase a gun.

As to the price being lower theory.....  I'm not sure.  I'll have to give that some thought and some google fu research.  But my observation is that guns & ammo prices have steadily climbed since the first big spike started under Obama.  There was a point there in his first term and especially after Sandy Hook where stuff was becoming unobtanium and prices were through the roof.  They eventually dropped in his 2nd term when it was obvious to all that an AWB was not going to happen and supply caught up with demand.  Fortunately, I stocked up big on ammo and reloading components during that dip.  Once the Antifa, covid and BLM trifecta storm hit a year ago - the market has been utterly crazy.  Store shelves have been empty since last year and gouge prices are stupidly high because the # of new first time gun owners has gone through the roof.  Blacks and women are the leaders by far driving the buying craze.  And gouge prices are not a deterrent at all right now.  I sold off a few lots of excess ammo and some reloading stuff I'll never use and I've gotten easily 400-500% over what I paid for it.  I could make a small fortune if I wanted to sell off more, but I don't need the $$ so I'm happy to sit on it.  

 

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47 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Nope sorry, that is simply not true.  I think we have some unique societal issues going on that other countries might have a smidge of here and there, but not the totality or the scale that we do.  

The scale needs to measure guns, and the gun law permissiveness. Our indices of violence are NOT significantly higher than other leading nations. The outcomes of our conflicts are much worse. Higher morbidity needs to be weighed.

More fluff, sir. It emanates from your brain, to justify (and normalize) gun violence.

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41 minutes ago, jocal505 said:
1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

Nope sorry, that is simply not true.  I think we have some unique societal issues going on that other countries might have a smidge of here and there, but not the totality or the scale that we do.  

The scale needs to measure guns, and the gun law permissiveness. Our indices of violence are NOT significantly higher than other leading nations. The outcomes of our conflicts are much worse. Higher morbidity needs to be weighed.

More fluff, sir. It emanates from your brain, to justify (and normalize) gun violence.

The Merc is simply using the standard right wing / gun nutter mantra "Nowhere else is like the United States".

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Obviously there are some gun owners who are sane, responsible, and present no threat to their fellow man or their family. There are some drivers who can safely do over 100 mph on public roads, too. 

To quote Aussie comedian Jim Jefferies: "I take drugs like a fuckin' champ, no problems. But Susie took drugs and stabbed her kids, so now none of us can take drugs. Thanks a fuckin' heap, Susie!"

 

 

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Whether its easier or not to get firearms in the USA is irrelevant and doesn't change the rise in gun ownership and the out of control gun deaths in the USA.  

 

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-gun-politics-shootings-health-3a38e35db46f4b3b76af3ed566e47c0c

"According to a database compiled by The Associated Press, USA Today and Northeastern University, only three mass shootings occurred at public places — the lowest total for that category in a decade — out of 19 total mass shootings in 2020.

The database tracks all mass killings including shootings, defined as four or more people dead not including the perpetrator.

According to that definition, there have been 17 mass killings, 16 of those shootings, already this year, said James Alan Fox, a criminologist and professor at Northeastern University.

The Gun Violence Archive, which monitors media and police reports to track gun violence, defines mass shootings as those involving four or more people who were shot, regardless of whether they died. Overall, according to its database, more than 8,700 people have died of gun violence in the U.S. this year.

The GVA also found that mass shootings spiked in 2020 to about 600, which was higher than in any of the previous six years it tracked the statistic. According to this year’s count, there have been at least 267 mass shootings in the U.S. so far, including the latest three overnight Friday into Saturday.

“It’s worrisome,” Fox said. “We have a blend of people beginning to get out and about in public. We have lots of divisiveness. And we have more guns and warm weather. It’s a potentially deadly mix.”"

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/12/us/austin-texas-shooting-downtown/index.html

"(CNN)Authorities have arrested one person in connection with the mass shooting overnight in downtown Austin, Texas, that left 14 people injured, Mayor Steve Adler's office said.

Two of the people injured were in critical condition, Austin Interim Police Chief Joseph Chacon said at a press briefing Saturday.
There was no information immediately available surrounding the circumstances of the arrest.
During the Saturday news briefing, Chacon said authorities had identified two male suspects responsible for the shooting, and added that it appeared this was an isolated incident between the two parties."
 

"Not a day goes by that Glenda Mack doesn’t think of her grandson. She wears a heart-shaped necklace with his pictures on it and talks to him each night when she prays.

She’d raised David since he was 5 days old and had high hopes for his future. He loved his family, enjoyed computers and liked playing outside.
He’d been cooped up inside during the pandemic, but assured his grandmother that he and his friends would keep their masks on if she let him go out to play football. She reluctantly agreed.
“It’s right up the street from us,” Mack said. “He told me ‘I love you’ and I said, ‘Love you too.’ But he didn’t make it there.”

Relatives discovered David Mack’s body while searching for him the following day. He’d been shot to death behind a public golf course about a quarter-mile from his southwest Atlanta home. He was 12."

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22 hours ago, Happy said:

Obviously there are some OVERWHELMINGLY MOST gun owners who are sane, responsible, and present no threat to their fellow man or their family. T

 

 

FIFY.  The corrected version is not opinion either.  It is a demonstrable and statistical fact.  

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

FIFY.  The corrected version is not opinion either.  It is a demonstrable and statistical fact.  

Well, if I ever heard a call for a cite? This would be it.

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22 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Well, if I ever heard a call for a cite? This would be it.

its the sane part that will get him.

 

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4 hours ago, Keith said:

Whether its easier or not to get firearms in the USA is irrelevant

No shit - there are estimated to be nearly 400,000,000 small arms in the USA.

More than one for every man, woman and child.

1/2 the guns used in crime here are illegals from the USA.

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9 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

No shit - there are estimated to be nearly 400,000,000 small arms in the USA.

More than one for every man, woman and child.

1/2 the guns used in crime here are illegals from the USA.

Now it's your turn for a cite?

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3 hours ago, Burning Man said:

FIFY.  The corrected version is not opinion either.  It is a demonstrable and statistical fact.  

The explosive force of AR-15 style rifles (msn.com)

Watch the evidence. Note the experts. You have said otherwise, on Political ANarchy.

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6 hours ago, Keith said:

Whether its easier or not to get firearms in the USA is irrelevant

No, actually it's not irrelevant at all.

First year stats students get it drummed into their heads that correlation != causation, necessarily, but the converse doesn't apply.

No correlation is definitely meaningful.

Which is what you have here. So it's not irrelevant, it demonstrates that what has been done to date is ineffective and therefore continuing to do it is a waste of time & resources.

You therefore need to do something different. Not throw up your hands in despair, not continue passing laws that don't actually work to address the supposed issue for whatever reason, but something different.

That's the hard bit and where a lot of you get stuck. You simply can't imagine doing anything different and just want to double down on trying failure.

FKT

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On 6/12/2021 at 9:21 AM, Burning Man said:

Thank you.  It drives me crazy in these gun discussions when people will not accept and stick to basic facts.  The fact is that guns are far more difficult to purchase legally now than in the past.  I think the problem is that its still not hard enough for the grabbers who are dismayed that the number of new gun owners grows by the day.  Their idea of "difficult" is basically people should be completely "unable" to purchase a gun.

As to the price being lower theory.....  I'm not sure.  I'll have to give that some thought and some google fu research.  But my observation is that guns & ammo prices have steadily climbed since the first big spike started under Obama.  There was a point there in his first term and especially after Sandy Hook where stuff was becoming unobtanium and prices were through the roof.  They eventually dropped in his 2nd term when it was obvious to all that an AWB was not going to happen and supply caught up with demand.  Fortunately, I stocked up big on ammo and reloading components during that dip.  Once the Antifa, covid and BLM trifecta storm hit a year ago - the market has been utterly crazy.  Store shelves have been empty since last year and gouge prices are stupidly high because the # of new first time gun owners has gone through the roof.  Blacks and women are the leaders by far driving the buying craze.  And gouge prices are not a deterrent at all right now.  I sold off a few lots of excess ammo and some reloading stuff I'll never use and I've gotten easily 400-500% over what I paid for it.  I could make a small fortune if I wanted to sell off more, but I don't need the $$ so I'm happy to sit on it.  

 

 It was the saturday night special craze of the 80s that brought the hammer down in CA as much as anything else. So many knuckleheads were packing heat shootings became all but common. They really put the screws to the makers and distributors. Something similar happened in NYC under Rudy. Somebody will tell us if the shootings got worse or got better after draconian gun laws were in effect in those places.   

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4 minutes ago, Mark K said:

 It was the saturday night special craze of the 80s that brought the hammer down in CA as much as anything else. So many knuckleheads were packing heat shootings became all but common. They really put the screws to the makers and distributors. Something similar happened in NYC under Rudy. Somebody will tell us if the shootings got worse or got better after draconian gun laws were in effect in those places.   

Probably they won't.

If shootings dropped, it was because of the laws.

If shootings didn't drop or actually rose, it was because people smuggled guns, broke the laws and otherwise undermined their intentions.

Either way, the solution is more and more restrictive laws.

Even if they don't achieve their stated aims.

FKT

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25 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

No, actually it's not irrelevant at all.

First year stats students get it drummed into their heads that correlation != causation, necessarily, but the converse doesn't apply.

No correlation is definitely meaningful.

Which is what you have here. So it's not irrelevant, it demonstrates that what has been done to date is ineffective and therefore continuing to do it is a waste of time & resources.

You therefore need to do something different. Not throw up your hands in despair, not continue passing laws that don't actually work to address the supposed issue for whatever reason, but something different.

That's the hard bit and where a lot of you get stuck. You simply can't imagine doing anything different and just want to double down on trying failure.

FKT

Well, and average innocent random American people just going about their day continue to be shot, every day, so yes your right, nothing has changed.

How should they change the Americano gun packing mind set?

So far its 2021, and nothing has helped.

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1 minute ago, Keith said:

Well, and average innocent random American people just going about their day continue to be shot, every day, so yes your right, nothing has changed.

How should they change the Americano gun packing mind set?

So far its 2021, and nothing has helped.

NFI how to change the mindset, I'm just pointing out what hasn't worked so no point wasting time trying to duplicate failure. Go back 100 years, lots less firearm restrictions, mass murders rare. The laws are demonstrably ineffective.

Personally I think it's toxic culture and needs a major internal culture shift so is basically unfixable. I don't live there and I've no intention of visiting either.

Jeff is right on the causes thing - I frankly don't give a damn about gangsters killing each other as long as they don't kill innocents. But of course they do, so the hammer needs to be dropped on them and hard.

Said it before - I'd put all semiauto centrefire  firearms with removable mags into the same category as fully auto machine guns are ATM, charge a high registration fee and draconian storage requirements etc. Anyone who says a 5.56mm NATO rifle is a good self-defence weapon in an urban area is either ignorant of ballistics, a fool or a liar. And those categories are not mutually exclusive. Fire one round that goes beyond your property boundaries and you should be up on charges of endangering the life of others with no exclusions for self defence.

FKT

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2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Now it's your turn for a cite?

The number of guns obtained legally in Canada but are then sold to people who use them for criminal purposes has surged dramatically in recent years compared to firearms smuggled from the United States, Toronto police say.

In recent years, they say, investigators have noticed a stark shift in where guns used to commit crimes are coming from.

Before 2012, about 75 per cent of the firearms were trafficked from the United States. By 2017, however, about half originated from domestic sources

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/07/24/illegal-guns-sourced-canada/

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On 6/10/2021 at 4:11 PM, badlatitude said:

Please don't reply unless you have a possible solution.

Get money completely out of politics.

Possible, but not likely.

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33 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

The number of guns obtained legally in Canada but are then sold to people who use them for criminal purposes has surged dramatically in recent years compared to firearms smuggled from the United States, Toronto police say.

In recent years, they say, investigators have noticed a stark shift in where guns used to commit crimes are coming from.

Before 2012, about 75 per cent of the firearms were trafficked from the United States. By 2017, however, about half originated from domestic sources

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/07/24/illegal-guns-sourced-canada/

Did you actually read what you sourced?

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3 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Well, if I ever heard a call for a cite? This would be it.

I was hoping you would ask.... this is like putting a T-ball in front of Barry Bonds and telling him "betcha can't hit it over the fence....."  I'm frankly surprised you asked given how easy the stats are....

Let's be very clear here what I'm providing a cite for so you can't tape dance your way out of it and claim that's not what you were talking about.

4 hours ago, Burning Man said:
On 6/12/2021 at 2:03 PM, Happy said:

Obviously there are some OVERWHELMINGLY MOST gun owners who are sane, responsible, and present no threat to their fellow man or their family. T

FIFY.  The corrected version is not opinion either.  It is a demonstrable and statistical fact.  

How Many Americans Own A Gun?

The answer to this question is not straightforward. The exact number of U.S. gun owners is unclear due to the fact that there is no federal registration requirement or similar regulation that would enable an official count. In fact, federal law prohibits a central registry of firearms owned by private citizens.

About 40% of Americans say they or someone in their household owns a gun, and 22% of individuals (about 72 million people) report owning a gun, according to surveys from Pew and Harvard and Northeastern. This figure has declined over time, down from 51% of gun-owning households in 1978. Gun purchases, however, have hit historic highs in recent years and during the COVID-19 pandemic.

I personally think those numbers are way, way low.  In this day and age, no one wants to admitting owning a gun to a national survey, just like they lied in surveys leading up to the 2016 election.  But even if we take that very low number...... 72 million individual Americans own guns.  In 2019, There were ~14K homicides in the US using gun.  I didn't use 2020 because that number would be even lower and I didn't want to be accused of cherry picking.  So even if worst case there was 1 shooter for every death...... the math works out to be that 0.0000019% (yes that is five zeros) of people who own a gun in the US committed murder with it.  If we are talking accidents as @Happy also alluded, there are usually in the range of about 650 accidental shooting deaths in any given year.  I'll spot you and give you 800.  So 800/72 million works out to:  0.00000011% (yes that is 6 zeros) of people who own guns have accidentally killed someone.  

Again, I think those total number of gun owners is way low given the spikes in first time gun owners both under Obama as well as last year with Covid.  I think the number is probably closer to 100 million easily.  Which if true, would make those stats even more in favor of my statement.  But even using the lowest number of total individual owners, the numbers of people who have either murdered someone or killed someone accidentally with a gun are infinitesimally tiny compared to the numbers of gun owners out there.  You have a 153% MORE chance of dying in a car accident than you do being killed by someone else with a gun.  

Glad you asked.  

 

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Actually to answer your call for a cite even more to the point.....

  • 99.99999981% of gun owners ARE NOT committing homicide with their guns
  • 99.9999989% are not accidentally killing their families or others with their guns

So yeah, I would say that easily meets the threshold for 

5 hours ago, Burning Man said:

OVERWHELMINGLY MOST gun owners who are sane, responsible, and present no threat to their fellow man or their family.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

No, actually it's not irrelevant at all.

First year stats students get it drummed into their heads that correlation != causation, necessarily, but the converse doesn't apply.

No correlation is definitely meaningful.

Which is what you have here. So it's not irrelevant, it demonstrates that what has been done to date is ineffective and therefore continuing to do it is a waste of time & resources.

You therefore need to do something different. Not throw up your hands in despair, not continue passing laws that don't actually work to address the supposed issue for whatever reason, but something different.

That's the hard bit and where a lot of you get stuck. You simply can't imagine doing anything different and just want to double down on trying failure.

FKT

DING fucking DING!

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47 minutes ago, Jules said:

Get money completely out of politics.

Possible, but not likely.

Agree.

All campaigns should be absolutely contribution free. No outside ads, no personal funds, nothing. Equal time on all media for every candidate.

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1 minute ago, Burning Man said:

DING fucking DING!

DING fucking DONG!

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6 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I was hoping you would ask.... this is like putting a T-ball in front of Barry Bonds and telling him "betcha can't hit it over the fence....."  I'm frankly surprised you asked given how easy the stats are....

Let's be very clear here what I'm providing a cite for so you can't tape dance your way out of it and claim that's not what you were talking about.

How Many Americans Own A Gun?

The answer to this question is not straightforward. The exact number of U.S. gun owners is unclear due to the fact that there is no federal registration requirement or similar regulation that would enable an official count. In fact, federal law prohibits a central registry of firearms owned by private citizens.

About 40% of Americans say they or someone in their household owns a gun, and 22% of individuals (about 72 million people) report owning a gun, according to surveys from Pew and Harvard and Northeastern. This figure has declined over time, down from 51% of gun-owning households in 1978. Gun purchases, however, have hit historic highs in recent years and during the COVID-19 pandemic.

I personally think those numbers are way, way low.  In this day and age, no one wants to admitting owning a gun to a national survey, just like they lied in surveys leading up to the 2016 election.  But even if we take that very low number...... 72 million individual Americans own guns.  In 2019, There were ~14K homicides in the US using gun.  I didn't use 2020 because that number would be even lower and I didn't want to be accused of cherry picking.  So even if worst case there was 1 shooter for every death...... the math works out to be that 0.0000019% (yes that is five zeros) of people who own a gun in the US committed murder with it.  If we are talking accidents as @Happy also alluded, there are usually in the range of about 650 accidental shooting deaths in any given year.  I'll spot you and give you 800.  So 800/72 million works out to:  0.00000011% (yes that is 6 zeros) of people who own guns have accidentally killed someone.  

Again, I think those total number of gun owners is way low given the spikes in first time gun owners both under Obama as well as last year with Covid.  I think the number is probably closer to 100 million easily.  Which if true, would make those stats even more in favor of my statement.  But even using the lowest number of total individual owners, the numbers of people who have either murdered someone or killed someone accidentally with a gun are infinitesimally tiny compared to the numbers of gun owners out there.  You have a 153% MORE chance of dying in a car accident than you do being killed by someone else with a gun.  

Glad you asked.  

 

There is no point trying to figure out actual numbers of guns, when gun owners lie to your face, and the biggest gun lobby made tracking statistics impossible more than twenty-five years ago. It is also impossible to gauge gun violence when robberies, gun related violence, and gang violence are not tracked universally, because the number one gun lobby spends $55 million a year making sure government doesn't go there.

Last, poor mental health is responsible for the greatest number of gun deaths. If you forgot, suicide took almost 24,000 people last year, not counting mass shootings which were surely pulled off by some mentally damaged individuals.

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Anyone who says a 5.56mm NATO rifle is a good self-defence weapon in an urban area is either ignorant of ballistics, a fool or a liar. And those categories are not mutually exclusive. Fire one round that goes beyond your property boundaries and you should be up on charges of endangering the life of others with no exclusions for self defence.

I agree with most of what you say here, but on this you are very wrong.  Test after test has shown that handgun slugs like a 9mm, 45, .40S&W, etc are far more likely to penetrate most types of residential walls and structures than a typical 5.56mm 55Gr NATO FMJ.  

 

2 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

There is no point trying to figure out actual numbers of guns, when gun owners lie to your face, and the biggest gun lobby made tracking statistics impossible more than twenty-five years ago. It is also impossible to gauge gun violence when robberies, gun related violence, and gang violence are not tracked universally, because the number one gun lobby spends $55 million a year making sure government doesn't go there.

Last, poor mental health is responsible for the greatest number of gun deaths. If you forgot, suicide took almost 24,000 people last year, not counting mass shootings which were surely pulled off by some mentally damaged individuals.

Well, since you completely ignored addressing my post when you were the one who called for a cite, I'll assume that means you stipulate that YES, indeed the vast vast vast majority of gun owners in the US do not commit homicides or accidentally shoot their loved ones, eh?

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1 minute ago, Burning Man said:

I agree with most of what you say here, but on this you are very wrong.  Test after test has shown that handgun slugs like a 9mm, 45, .40S&W, etc are far more likely to penetrate most types of residential walls and structures than a typical 5.56mm 55Gr NATO FMJ.  

 

Well, since you completely ignored addressing my post when you were the one who called for a cite, I'll assume that means you stipulate that YES, indeed the vast vast vast majority of gun owners in the US do not commit homicides or accidentally shoot their loved ones, eh?

Let's wait until the 2024 election before we pass judgment on that.

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Anyone who says a 5.56mm NATO rifle is a good self-defence weapon in an urban area is either ignorant of ballistics, a fool or a liar. And those categories are not mutually exclusive. Fire one round that goes beyond your property boundaries and you should be up on charges of endangering the life of others with no exclusions for self defence.

Most of everything here lately, I agree with you.  But on this one, you are dead wrong.  Don't feel bad though, it's a common myth.  There has been test after test that has shown the typical 5.56mm NATO 55gr FMJ round to be far less of a danger as a penetrator of typical residential housing materials such as wood 2x4s, sheetrock, siding, etc than even typical 9mm, .40, .45 cal handgun slugs are. Ask Briana Taylor who was shot through a wall with a 9mm slug from the Louisville cop.  Some tests even said 00 Buckshot often penetrated walls better than 5.56 can.  

There is a reason most Police SWAT, the FBI's HRT and almost all military SF's door kickers have gone away from the common 9mm or 45 cal Submachine gun for close in urban inside of a house CQB.  The 5.56 ofc gives more knockdown power but it was also chosen for the side benefit of not being as dangerous for collateral damage once its hit some walls and studs along the way.  The round tends to fragment where the solid heavy, slow pistol slugs do not.  

https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2013/11/04/ar-15-appropriate-home-defense-part-one-penetration-issues/

http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07/14/why-high-powered-5-56-nato-223-ar-15-ammo-is-safer-for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/

 

Quote

 

FBI and Independent Testing Has Consistently Shown .223/5.56 NATO Fired From AR-15’s Do Not Over Penetrate More Than Pistol/Shotgun

First up is this older article by R.K. Taubert, a retired FBI agent with over 20 years experience who conducted extensive counter-terrorism and weapons research while with the Bureau.

To quote Mr Taubert, (emphasis mine) ” … As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.

“Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.”

 

Those are just a couple of many many tests that have answered this question.

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18 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

There is no point trying to figure out actual numbers of guns, when gun owners lie to your face, and the biggest gun lobby made tracking statistics impossible more than twenty-five years ago. It is also impossible to gauge gun violence when robberies, gun related violence, and gang violence are not tracked universally, because the number one gun lobby spends $55 million a year making sure government doesn't go there.

 

Why are you ignoring my stats???  I used the lowest of the low end of numbers so you couldn't accuse me of cherry picking.  Do you actually think gun ownership is less than 20%?  Really?

Quote

Last, poor mental health is responsible for the greatest number of gun deaths. If you forgot, suicide took almost 24,000 people last year, not counting mass shootings which were surely pulled off by some mentally damaged individuals.

Oh FFS, YOU yourself said it would be a good thing if we left out suicide out of the discussion of mass murder and homicides.  Changing your tune already so quickly???

 

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48 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Actually to answer your call for a cite even more to the point.....

  • 99.99999981% of gun owners ARE NOT committing homicide with their guns
  • 99.9999989% are not accidentally killing their families or others with their guns

So yeah, I would say that easily meets the threshold for 

According to the above percentages, only 19 gun owners out of 10 billion ARE committing homicides with their guns or about 0.06 in the US.  Over what time frame and are you sure you understand what a percentage is defined as?

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33 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Let's wait until the 2024 election before we pass judgment on that.

To pass judgement on what???  That the overwhelming majority of gun owners have not committed homicide or accidental deaths with their guns?  I'm not sure what the 2024 election has to do with current stats.  

I honestly didn't think you would tapdance away from your own request for a cite so fucking quickly.  Just man up and admit I was correct that the vast overwhelming majority of gun owners are no threat to their fellow man.  But you can't even do that.  So fucken typical.

Hoisted by your own Petard......  Just saying.  

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5 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

According to the above percentages, only 19 gun owners out of 10 billion ARE committing homicides with their guns or about .6 in the US.  Over what time frame and are you sure you understand what a percentage is defined as?

Sorry, I am an idiot.  I moved the decimal to the right instead of the left.  <facepalm>  Thank you for catching that:

The corrected answers in Red are:  

1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

the math works out to be that 0.019% of people who own a gun in the US committed murder with it.  If we are talking accidents as @Happy also alluded, there are usually in the range of about 650 accidental shooting deaths in any given year.  I'll spot you and give you 800.  So 800/72 million works out to:  0.0011% of people who own guns have accidentally killed someone.  

52 minutes ago, Burning Man said:
  • 99.981% of gun owners ARE NOT committing homicide with their guns
  • 99.9989% are not accidentally killing their families or others with their guns

 

Still, despite my math(s) incompetence - the stats overwhelmingly show that the vast majority of gun owners are not killing people.

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

Why are you ignoring my stats???  I used the lowest of the low end of numbers so you couldn't accuse me of cherry picking.  Do you actually think gun ownership is less than 20%?  Really?

Oh FFS, YOU yourself said it would be a good thing if we left out suicide out of the discussion of mass murder and homicides.  Changing your tune already so quickly???

 

No I'm not ignoring your stats, they are approximations and pure guesswork thanks to NRA lobbying.

Suicide is very much a part of our problem, I did say that it would be good if we addresses it separately, we have not and probably will not.

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

To pass judgement on what???  That the overwhelming majority of gun owners have not committed homicide or accidental deaths with their guns?  I'm not sure what the 2024 election has to do with current stats.  

I honestly didn't think you would tapdance away from your own request for a cite so fucking quickly.  Just man up and admit I was correct that the vast overwhelming majority of gun owners are no threat to their fellow man.  But you can't even do that.  So fucken typical.

Hoisted by your own Petard......  Just saying.  

The 2024 election will be the best chance to see what guns and Americans are made of. If we do have a civil war, all the stats in the world won't save us.

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On 6/12/2021 at 5:25 AM, badlatitude said:

Austin: 13 Shot, Shooter Not In Custody

AUSTIN, Texas -- A shooting in a busy entertainment district in downtown Austin, Texas injured 13 people early Saturday, and police said the suspected shooter was not in custody. 

Two of the injured people were in critical condition but as of the news conference at 4 a.m. local time, no one had died, interim Austin Police Chief Joseph Chacon said. 

Gunfire erupted just before 1:30 a.m. along 6th Street, a popular area filled with bars and restaurants. The street was barricaded to keep out vehicle traffic at the time of the shooting, Chacon said. 

It was unclear what sparked the shooting.



https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/injured-shooting-downtown-austin-texas-78236667 

No one dead? Not a mass shooting

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46 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

No I'm not ignoring your stats, they are approximations and pure guesswork thanks to NRA lobbying.

Yeah but you'd be really hard put to argue that they were out by one or even 2 orders of magnitude.

Which still leaves the discussion at essentially the same point - the overwhelming majority of gun owners DO NOT kill others with their firearms.

Give it up - there's absolutely no logical way you can argue against this proposition. To do so requires you to argue that a) firearms killings are *vastly* under-reported or b) ownership of firearms is vastly exaggerated. Or both.

Go for it. Should be entertaining.

You won't, of course, because on this topic you're incapable of shifting from your POV.

FKT

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2 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Most of everything here lately, I agree with you.  But on this one, you are dead wrong.  Don't feel bad though, it's a common myth.  There has been test after test that has shown the typical 5.56mm NATO 55gr FMJ round to be far less of a danger as a penetrator of typical residential housing materials such as wood 2x4s, sheetrock, siding, etc than even typical 9mm, .40, .45 cal handgun slugs are. Ask Briana Taylor who was shot through a wall with a 9mm slug from the Louisville cop.  Some tests even said 00 Buckshot often penetrated walls better than 5.56 can.  

There is a reason most Police SWAT, the FBI's HRT and almost all military SF's door kickers have gone away from the common 9mm or 45 cal Submachine gun for close in urban inside of a house CQB.  The 5.56 ofc gives more knockdown power but it was also chosen for the side benefit of not being as dangerous for collateral damage once its hit some walls and studs along the way.  The round tends to fragment where the solid heavy, slow pistol slugs do not.  

https://www.outdoorhub.com/stories/2013/11/04/ar-15-appropriate-home-defense-part-one-penetration-issues/

http://preparedgunowners.com/2016/07/14/why-high-powered-5-56-nato-223-ar-15-ammo-is-safer-for-home-defense-fbi-overpenetration-testing/

 

Those are just a couple of many many tests that have answered this question.

All I'll say is, that's not my personal experience with that calibre putting holes in trees, though I'll freely admit I've never tried to shoot through buildings etc. I've shot a hell of a lot of animals at ranges exceeding 200m though.

It also assumes that all rounds will be discharged inside a building, no?

And what about people with 7.62 x 39 or worse, 7.62 NATO? Lots of both about the place.

Anyway, regardless, if you think you need a semiauto with a 30 round detachable magazine to defend your home, you're living in fantasyland or somewhere you should move from ASAP IMO.

FKT

Edited by Fah Kiew Tu
typo
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4 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Did you actually read what you sourced?

Yes, did you?

Before 2012, about 75 per cent of the firearms were trafficked from the United States. By 2017, however, about half originated from domestic sources

Are you even capable of comprehending where the other half comes from?

:rolleyes: And you're not even one of the stupid ones - it's no wonder the USA is so fucked up.

 

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On 6/13/2021 at 9:03 AM, Happy said:

Obviously there are some gun owners who are sane, responsible, and present no threat to their fellow man or their family. There are some drivers who can safely do over 100 mph on public roads, too. 

To quote Aussie comedian Jim Jefferies: "I take drugs like a fuckin' champ, no problems. But Susie took drugs and stabbed her kids, so now none of us can take drugs. Thanks a fuckin' heap, Susie!"

 

 

I prefer his statement on achieving meaningful gun laws……”yes ya can it’s called an amendment……!”

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7 hours ago, Mark K said:

 It was the saturday night special craze of the 80s that brought the hammer down in CA as much as anything else. So many knuckleheads were packing heat shootings became all but common. They really put the screws to the makers and distributors. Something similar happened in NYC under Rudy. Somebody will tell us if the shootings got worse or got better after draconian gun laws were in effect in those places.   

Somebody already did, in the course of declaring California's scary gun ban unconstitutional. The ineffectiveness at achieving stated goals was one reason the law failed to pass constitutional muster.

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7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Anyone who says a 5.56mm NATO rifle is a good self-defence weapon in an urban area is either ignorant of ballistics, a fool or a liar.

Somebody already did, in the course of declaring California's scary gun ban unconstitutional. One of the things I learned in reading the opinion was that overpenetration through walls is more likely with my 40 S&W Glock than with a 5.56 rifle. In any case, not all of us live in urban areas but battlefield .22 bans are designed to apply to us anyway.

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6 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Last, poor mental health is responsible for the greatest number of gun deaths. If you forgot, suicide took almost 24,000 people last year, not counting mass shootings which were surely pulled off by some mentally damaged individuals.

No, those are just the ones that are politically convenient for gungrabby purposes. To those of us to whom it matters more whether a person died than how, the actual number was 47,511 in 2019, for example.

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7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I frankly don't give a damn about gangsters killing each other as long as they don't kill innocents. But of course they do, so the hammer needs to be dropped on them and hard.

We've been trying harsher punishments in the stupid drug war for so long that even Joe Biden is getting tired of it. It isn't working and won't start. That's why I suggested undermining the black market profits that empower them by ending the stupid drug war.

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11 minutes ago, Excoded Tom said:

We've been trying harsher punishments in the stupid drug war for so long that even Joe Biden is getting tired of it. It isn't working and won't start. That's why I suggested undermining the black market profits that empower them by ending the stupid drug war.

Yeah and on that issue we are in agreement.

I do wonder what the law of unanticipated consequences will bring should mind-altering/mood altering drugs be de-criminalised but I think it worth the risk. Drop the hammer *hard* on people operating moving machinery in public places, otherwise - shrug - it's a morality issue and don't force yours on me.

Doubt I'd start taking drugs regardless but you never know. I'm getting older, may well be a time when I think dying in a drug induced haze is a good thing even if it hastens the process. Or indeed especially if it hastens the process, depending.

FKT

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1 minute ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Doubt I'd start taking drugs regardless but you never know. I'm getting older, may well be a time when I think dying in a drug induced haze is a good thing even if it hastens the process. Or indeed especially if it hastens the process, depending.

I hope you don't get to learn about the utility of cannabis in alleviating the pain from bone cancer in the same way my father did.

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8 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:
9 hours ago, Jules said:

Get money completely out of politics.

Possible, but not likely.

Agree.

All campaigns should be absolutely contribution free. No outside ads, no personal funds, nothing. Equal time on all media for every candidate.

Not sure what these posts have to do with the topic of this thread, which is banning battlefield .22's and other such weapons of mass destruction, but...I guess a hijack to a completely different topic is OK in this thread. 

Although it would be entertaining to see Vermin Supreme all over the networks, I oppose forcing them to cover people they prefer to ignore. Glad we have a first amendment so your idea is a complete non-starter. I think there's a thread about this somewhere...

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Yes, did you?

Before 2012, about 75 per cent of the firearms were trafficked from the United States. By 2017, however, about half originated from domestic sources

Are you even capable of comprehending where the other half comes from?

:rolleyes: And you're not even one of the stupid ones - it's no wonder the USA is so fucked up.

 

Yes I read all that, what I don't think you read was that the article that you sourced was a local Toronto publication called, "City News" it says "City News Everywhere" but they seem to be local, I saw no national outlets, and I question whether they were talking about local or national problems. It was a bad source, they confounded city problems with national problems. It was confusing whether they were discussing local or national problems.

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4 hours ago, Excoded Tom said:

No, those are just the ones that are politically convenient for gungrabby purposes. To those of us to whom it matters more whether a person died than how, the actual number was 47,511 in 2019, for example.

47,511 were all suicides Tom, gun deaths are still 23,941. gun death numbers are the only relevant one to the discussion. I saw that emergency department visits amounted to 312,000 visits annually, It would be interesting to dissect that number.

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2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Yes I read all that, what I don't think you read was that the article that you sourced was a local Toronto publication called, "City News" it says "City News Everywhere" but they seem to be local, I saw no national outlets, and I question whether they were talking about local or national problems. It was a bad source, they confounded city problems with national problems. It was confusing whether they were discussing local or national problems.

You must be easily confused.

The stats are repeated in numerous publications - you can look it up.

Your attempts to imply gun violence is not America-centric are simply lame.

But don't let that stop you.

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12 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Suicide is very much a part of our problem, I did say that it would be good if we addresses it separately

 

2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

47,511 were all suicides Tom, gun deaths are still 23,941. gun death numbers are the only relevant one to the discussion.

If they're relevant to "mass" shootings and the policy response of banning battlefield .22's and other weapons of mass destruction, why did you say they should be addressed separately?

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8 hours ago, Excoded Tom said:

Somebody already did, in the course of declaring California's scary gun ban unconstitutional. The ineffectiveness at achieving stated goals was one reason the law failed to pass constitutional muster.

that's kinda more bullshit you know. Cali kids have 1/2 the death rate by guns than kids in more "gun friendly" states.

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2 minutes ago, Raz&#x27;r said:

that's kinda more bullshit you know. Cali kids have 1/2 the death rate by guns than kids in more "gun friendly" states.

Which might be relevant if politicians had declared that preventing kid suicides was the purpose of the scary gun ban/confiscation program in California. But they didn't, so it's not.

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