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This popped out in my YT feed :

thought what a bunch of muppets then wondered how many actual rules got broken and what's the best strategy in such a situation ....

I don't think that he can claim water on 40165 as surely he came in the 3 lengths zone later but assuming that he has, surely others don't have to give you water to go round parked boats or have they ?

What rule (if any) can 40165 use to protest him assuming that he had right to the inside ?

In such a situation I would have tried to gain momentum to cross aft of 40165 and try to go round everybody, not bold enough ? better strategy? Trouble with that approach is that the chances are that you end up in everybody dirty air but it is a bit of a dead end to come on starboard with lot of parked boats in front of you anyway...

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4 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

This popped out in my YT feed :

thought what a bunch of muppets then wondered how many actual rules got broken and what's the best strategy in such a situation ....

I don't think that he can claim water on 40165 as surely he came in the 3 lengths zone later but assuming that he has, surely others don't have to give you water to go round parked boats or have they ?

What rule (if any) can 40165 use to protest him assuming that he had right to the inside ?

In such a situation I would have tried to gain momentum to cross aft of 40165 and try to go round everybody, not bold enough ? better strategy? Trouble with that approach is that the chances are that you end up in everybody dirty air but it is a bit of a dead end to come on starboard with lot of parked boats in front of you anyway...

 

1 I agree bunch of muppets.

2. I think the PoV boat does have a right to room over 40165; when 40165 enters the zone, he looks to be overlapped inside, and it looks as if he has been for some time. certainly from around 55 secs to 1:12 they appear to be overlapped inside. They may also be overlapped inside 40326, not too clear on the video.

3. Yes room includes room to go around parked boats. (basically mark room includes room not to break rules)

What should have happened is that 40165 realizing that the owed him room should have got out of the way, BUT once it was clear that was not going to happen, (around 1:15) the POV boat should have protests and ducked rather than jamming themselves in there.

The PoV boat almost certainly fouled one of the boats they owed room to. (53026?)

The rules would be 18.2(b) and 10.

It sucks to work yourself all the way to the inside and have the outside boats decide not to give you room. And when playing with fairly wide gybe angles on a port rounding, port boats  almost always owe stb boats mark room.

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Should have lost the kite at about 1:10 in the video, would have been able to tuck in for a tight low speed rounding behind 53026 and 51541. Or maybe helm hard over at 1:20 and a Mexican drop.

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yipes what a cf

didn't look like he was even in the zone yet when he started barking for room.

 

I sent the link to this video to the in-house "rules expert" on the coaching staff at the Navel Academy. 

He has also been involved rather a lot in the evolution of the rules that govern mark roundings and "when boats meet" situations thru the last two iterations of rules changes. very interested to hear what he has to say about it. 

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This is why you don't wait until you're a length out to drop kite.

The important thing to notice is that the camera boat, technically, had inside room on nearly everyone in that shot because of the very high angles everyone is sailing.  I honestly don't think the camera boat is at fault here; they are entitled to round the mark and keep clear of any RoW boats, which they did - 40165 didn't do enough to keep clear imo (or the boat to leeward of them didn't, since its hard to judge how much space they have).

Though all of this could have been avoided by not being idiots about dousing.

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4 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

didn't look like he was even in the zone yet when he started barking for room.

 

I would argue that he should be letting the outside boats know well in advance that they will owe him room.

Don't forget that the obligation starts as soon as  the first boat (of each pair) enters the zone. If the other boat enters the zone overlapped outside even if the inside boat is a mile away, the outside boat will  still owe them room if they park in the zone.

I always let boats know well ahead of time if I think they will owe me room at the mark, it saves confusion later. (I try not to 'bark' just make sure they(and other boats around :) ) know I am inside them as we approach the zone.)

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6 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I would argue that he should be letting the outside boats know well in advance that they will owe him room.

Don't forget that the obligation starts as soon as  the first boat (of each pair) enters the zone. If the other boat enters the zone overlapped outside even if the inside boat is a mile away, the outside boat will  still owe them room if they park in the zone.

I always let boats know well ahead of time if I think they will owe me room at the mark, it saves confusion later. (I try not to 'bark' just make sure they(and other boats around :) ) know I am inside them as we approach the zone.)

yeah after watching this pain a few more times, I think he waited way too long to proclaim his "insideness" probably assumed that they would all realize they owed him room and part like the red sea for Mr Moses LOL

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19 minutes ago, crashtack said:

I honestly don't think the camera boat is at fault here; they are entitled to round the mark and keep clear of any RoW boats, which they did - 40165 didn't do enough to keep clear imo.

If you pause the video where it swaps to the aft facing camera (from 1:27), they are a long way below & past the mark. Feels like more room than they are entitled to.

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10 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

image.png.c2a9b3c7584b2a7b0206b71669fb967f.png

Yes. POV boat had inside overlap on 40165. His hail was a little confusing hailing "Starboard" because the gybe does not matter, just that he is inside boat.  . He probbaly should have slowed a bot to try and round behind the boats clear ahead vs go astern and to leeward, but if they were parked it might not have been wrong to keep the speed up and pop out to leewards.

Anyway, POV boat clearly had overlap on 40165 , hailed he had overlap....but after contact did not hail protest or hoist red flag so nothing to do here .

Given the hot angle, it is possible he could have gybed earlier . Looks like he overstood a bit.

 

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8 minutes ago, Snowden said:

If you pause the video where it swaps to the aft facing camera (from 1:27), they are a long way below & past the mark. Feels like more room than they are entitled to.

They had to give room to the 2 boats that were clear ahead and take the transoms.

This was not a particularly well sailed boat anyway.

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1 hour ago, crashtack said:

This is why you don't wait until you're a length out to drop kite.

It's a race... in light wind, you want to keep momentum... you just don't want to play it stock car style!

50 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

image.png.c2a9b3c7584b2a7b0206b71669fb967f.png

Thanks for the drawing, I've nearly never raced an asy boat inshore and didn't really think about this! So 51541 probably even owes him room!

39 minutes ago, IPLore said:

[...] but if they were parked it might not have been wrong to keep the speed up and pop out to leewards.

 

I remember pulling this one out, it felt so good! Equally if you misjudge you end up in everybody's smoke... bad, bad, bad!

40 minutes ago, IPLore said:

This was not a particularly well sailed boat anyway.

Yes, I felt to shout to the mainsheet trimmer, what are you thinking, they've barged themselves in there and he can't be bothered to trim the main after rounding the mark to help his helmsman get some clean air!

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

image.png.c2a9b3c7584b2a7b0206b71669fb967f.png

yeah, thanks for that, perspective helps a lot in seeing what was going on there. 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Yes. POV boat had inside overlap on 40165. His hail was a little confusing hailing "Starboard" because the gybe does not matter, just that he is inside boat.  . He probbaly should have slowed a bot to try and round behind the boats clear ahead vs go astern and to leeward, but if they were parked it might not have been wrong to keep the speed up and pop out to leewards.

 

Starboard does make a difference. He's not only owed mark room, boats on port are obligated to keep clear no matter where starboard goes (subject to rule 16, maybe 18.4, etc). So the question of how much room the starboard boat "needs" to round the mark and avoid inside boats isn't really relevant.

But I agree that in this situation with the other boats looking to be stalled at the mark the better part of valor might have been to go round the outside, carve a nice turn and come out with speed. Could very likely pass a few boats that are caught up in the cluster and maybe even wind up with clear air.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Yes, I felt to shout to the mainsheet trimmer, what are you thinking, they've barged themselves in there and he can't be bothered to trim the main after rounding the mark to help his helmsman get some clean air!

I'm not sure I can identify a main trimmer. Red suit guy is trimming headsails, except at the very end where the narrator says "you shouldn't have the main". Not sure what blue shirt's role is (I think he's narrating though) but it appears to have to do with the front of the boat. Is the driver supposed to be trimming main also?

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25 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Not sure what blue shirt's role is

I assumed he was the main trimmer + tactician but somehow got distracted... not 100% sure though!

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POV boat should have protested and avoided contact.  instead he likely violated rule 14 and could get tossed as well.

blue shirt guy almost broke an ankle at 1:28 trying to fend off

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:

He's not only owed mark room, boats on port are obligated to keep clear no matter where starboard goes

He was not owed mark room by any port boats who arrived inside 'the Zone' before him.

 

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11 minutes ago, random. said:

He was not owed mark room by any port boats who arrived inside 'the Zone' before him.

 

They really don't distribute the rulebook very widely down under, do they?

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5 minutes ago, crashtack said:

They really don't distribute the rulebook very widely down under, do they?

Quote it then.

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4 minutes ago, random. said:

Quote it then.

Quote

from 18.2

(b)If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.

If when the port boat arrives at the zone (no matter how long before stb) she is overlapped outside stb, then she owes stb room.

who arrives first is much less important than who is inside or outside (or clear astern/clear ahead)

 

Of course if I missed something (very possible) please let me know, but a quote would be good.

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21 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

If when the port boat arrives at the zone (no matter how long before stb) she is overlapped outside stb, then she owes stb room.

You are correct, I was thinking about the windward rule on this.

EDIT: It's early here.  :unsure:

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8 minutes ago, random. said:

You are correct, I was thinking about the windward rule on this.

I suspect some of the outside boats in the video were doing the same :).

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5 hours ago, JohnMB said:

image.png.c2a9b3c7584b2a7b0206b71669fb967f.png

I don't see a question that the camera boat was entitled to room, but being owed room does grant the right to fucking crash straight into other boats.

I'd DSQ all 3 of them, if this situation were brought to me on a PC

FB- Doug

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11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I don't see a question that the camera boat was entitled to room, but being owed room does grant the right to fucking crash straight into other boats.

I'd DSQ all 3 of them, if this situation were brought to me on a PC

FB- Doug

Agreed. Monumental stupidity.

It was more an answer to the OP questions:

9 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I don't think that he can claim water on 40165 as surely he came in the 3 lengths zone later but assuming that he has, surely others don't have to give you water to go round parked boats or have they ?

What rule (if any) can 40165 use to protest him assuming that he had right to the inside ?

I guess the true answer to the second question is: R14.

As bloodshot said, the correct response here is for the PoV boat to avoid contact and protest the boats who owe them room

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18 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I guess the true answer to the second question is: R14.

As bloodshot said, the correct response here is for the PoV boat to avoid contact and protest the boats who owe them room

Thanks, I would have gone round for the wrong reason as I would have assumed that 40165 owed me room to go round the mark but not to go round the parked boats. From a strategic point of view, going round might have paid as the others were really slow and a nice double gybe would have let them keep momentum. The true "Coyote" would have come round quick while protesting that the others didn't let him in!

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3 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Starboard does make a difference. He's not only owed mark room, boats on port are obligated to keep clear no matter where starboard goes (subject to rule 16, maybe 18.4, etc). So the question of how much room the starboard boat "needs" to round the mark and avoid inside boats isn't really relevant.

But I agree that in this situation with the other boats looking to be stalled at the mark the better part of valor might have been to go round the outside, carve a nice turn and come out with speed. Could very likely pass a few boats that are caught up in the cluster and maybe even wind up with clear air.

Correct. She can take more room than "as neccesary to sail the course while she is on starboard, but the moment she gybes she is on port/windward . If she is taking "room" she is protected.   I would argue that until she has cleared the sterns and while rounding up in seamanlike manner (giggle) to course to next mark, she is entitled to room.

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48 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I guess the true answer to the second question is: R14.

Except for rule 43.1(c). If a boat has ROW and/or is entitled to room and doesn't cause damage or injury she is (not may be, not even shall be, but is) exonerated for breaking 14. A piqued PC might DSQ them but they'd probably be reinstated on appeal (assuming that either the original PC or the appeals committee couldn't find any other breaches).

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14 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Except for rule 43.1(c). If a boat has ROW and/or is entitled to room and doesn't cause damage or injury she is (not may be, not even shall be, but is) exonerated for breaking 14. A piqued PC might DSQ them but they'd probably be reinstated on appeal (assuming that either the original PC or the appeals committee couldn't find any other breaches).

If you are going to be pedantic, do it properly. P asked what rule she could protest for (and what rule the PoV boat may have broken) not what rule she could be DSQ'd for.

 

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4 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Starboard does make a difference. He's not only owed mark room, boats on port are obligated to keep clear no matter where starboard goes (subject to rule 16, maybe 18.4, etc). So the question of how much room the starboard boat "needs" to round the mark and avoid inside boats isn't really relevant.

But I agree that in this situation with the other boats looking to be stalled at the mark the better part of valor might have been to go round the outside, carve a nice turn and come out with speed. Could very likely pass a few boats that are caught up in the cluster and maybe even wind up with clear air.

Agree.  POV boat is starboard tack, right of way, entitled to mark-room from all the boats except the 53026 and 51541 which she passes astern of as they round the mark.

Don't agree that any boas were 'stalled' or 'parked'  all were making way through the water under control, albeit the port tack boats to leeward of the mark were in disturbed air and not going very fast.

Ducking 40195 and 40326 and protesting would have cost POV a huge amount of time and distance on the boats that had already rounded.

The only rule that POV could possibly break was rule 14.

 

1 hour ago, JohnMB said:
10 hours ago, Panoramix said:

What rule (if any) can 40165 use to protest him

I guess the true answer to the second question is: R14.

By standing on into the bunch POV boat was exposed to rule 14, and when there was contact with 40195 POV broke rule 14.

However there was no injury or damage and POV is exonerated for breaking rule 14 by rule 43.1(c).

The risk the POV took was that there may have been injury or serious damage.  In the prevailing conditions, I think this was a fair risk.

I guess POV also took the risk of getting Doug Steam Flyer on a protest committee.

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19 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

If you are going to be pedantic, do it properly. P asked what rule she could protest for (and what rule the PoV boat may have broken) not what rule she could be DSQ'd for.

 

Fair enough...although the premise of the original question (stbd POV boat was not entitled to room) is flawed.

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41 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Fair enough...although the premise of the original question (stbd POV boat was not entitled to room) is flawed.

I hesitate to say this, because it doesn't not affect the situation other than how the different skippers get their different ideas about the rules.... but mark room used to not apply between boats on different tacks.

Noted for historical interest only, I apologize for the digression

FB- Doug

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8 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

sure looks like POV could have turned a little tighter to avoid the collision, not quite a seaman like rounding..   at 1:27 he looks to be a least 3 boat widths out..

Yes, if he did not hit the mark but he did hit the outside boat, then he is not IMHO protected by R14... might not be anyway, as it was obvious from before his gybe that the other boats were not giving mark-room and he drove straight into them.

- DSK

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I'd be very wary of the interpretation of "damage" under 43.1 (c).  certainly wouldn't rely on it in the case of exoneration

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13 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

sure looks like POV could have turned a little tighter to avoid the collision, not quite a seaman like rounding..   at 1:27 he looks to be a least 3 boat widths out..

yea, watching his tiller, he barely makes moves to round quickly

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30 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

sure looks like POV could have turned a little tighter to avoid the collision, not quite a seaman like rounding..   at 1:27 he looks to be a least 3 boat widths out..

 

16 minutes ago, bloodshot said:

yea, watching his tiller, he barely makes moves to round quickly

...he hit the leeward boat precisely because he turned up so quickly - his stern swung wide. Contact only could have been avoided by rounding slower.

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11 hours ago, crashtack said:

 

...he hit the leeward boat precisely because he turned up so quickly - his stern swung wide. Contact only could have been avoided by rounding slower.

at 1:20 and for about 5-8 seconds thereafter, his tiller is still amidships and he appears to go past the mark at that point.  He probably couldn't start his turn until then, but yeah, his sudden turn did push his stern into the other boat.  Seems like more evidence that his violated R14 but that's my just limited interpretation

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