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Getting tough with the anti-vaxxers


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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

Murdoch was first in line to get it and everyone who works at FOX is vaccinated. Everything else there is just for show, you know, infotainment.

I prefer inforrection. 

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Astra Zeneca, maybe 1 in 2 million from a blood clotting reaction. More common with younger people than older so the older you are, the less chance. Other than that, no. I've got science and IT d

I think this article puts it quite succinctly. OH MY FUCKING GOD, GET THE FUCKING VACCINE ALREADY, YOU FUCKING FUCKS https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/oh-my-fucking-god-get-the-fucking-vac

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

Murdoch was first in line to get it

bet ya he was lookin at tRumps arse .

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On 8/18/2021 at 1:13 PM, BlatantEcho said:

As the vaccine has a useful life of around 6.5months, you guys realize the re-vaccination rate will have to remaining high *forever*, right?

What are you calling "useful life"? Pfizer is still 84% effective after 6 months. That the effectiveness wanes over time is not a reason to not get vaccinated all.

Performance against the Delta variant is not as good as against Alplha, but that's likely in part because Delta wasn't around when current vaccines were developed. No doubt future vaccines will address that issue.

There are no reliable statistics for longer than 6 months because vaccines haven't been in use long enough, but I have no doubt more studies will emerge as time goes on so that optimal regimes for vaccinations and boosters will emerge along with newer, longer lasting vaccines.

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1 hour ago, RobG said:

What are you calling "useful life"? Pfizer is still 84% effective after 6 months. That the effectiveness wanes over time is not a reason to not get vaccinated all.

Performance against the Delta variant is not as good as against Alplha, but that's likely in part because Delta wasn't around when current vaccines were developed. No doubt future vaccines will address that issue.

There are no reliable statistics for longer than 6 months because vaccines haven't been in use long enough, but I have no doubt more studies will emerge as time goes on so that optimal regimes for vaccinations and boosters will emerge along with newer, longer lasting vaccines.

Have you seen the article from the same news source that you quoted above that says the Pzifer vaccine in Israel is 39% effective against Delta?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html

Strangely this article was published 5 days BEFORE the one you cited.

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4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Have you seen the article from the same news source that you quoted above that says the Pzifer vaccine in Israel is 39% effective against Delta?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html

Strangely this article was published 5 days BEFORE the one you cited.

It all depends on the context of "effectiveness". The 84% is against hospitalisation, not infection. The Israel study is 88% against hospitalisation, 39% against infection.

Interestingly, Az is (marginally) less effective initially than Pfizer against hospitalisation, but its effectiveness decreases more slowly so at 6 months they're about the same. 

Vaccination is already showing benefits in the NSW outbreak, deaths are much lower than with the same number of infections in Vic last year.

Eventually, all states will go the same way as NSW. States like WA that think they can maintain 0 infections indefinitely are dreaming. Or will have sealed boarders forever.

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All this whining about maybe having to go get a shot whenever. Do you guys (most seem to be presenting as male imo) never go to the doctor or pharmacy  or supermarket or community clinic during the course of a year?

Women in the US may go to a doctor or clinic yearly to get birth control prescriptions, pap tests, and the like. As needed for UTIs (you can get a kidney infection you know). Then there are the mammograms. Don't skip those! Just get your mash and flash. Really.

People get flu shots, tetanus shots, shingles and pneumonia shots at the Safeway, Walgreens, CVS or doctor's. Drug store is cheaper or free and you get a 10% off a big shopping trip coupon. People do tend to go to these places quite often.

Jamming another jab in doesn't seem too big a task. 

 

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And finally full FDA approval for the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine in the US, Moderna to follow soon. One more excuse for the covidiots here and elsewhere gone. Will it make a difference, perhaps not major, but it will facilitate many more mandates around the country, albeit probably too late for the current Delta variant surge.

 

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14 hours ago, IStream said:

Assuming we still have civilian control of the military and given that Biden's in charge, it'll happen. 

You advocate for military force against its own citizens to enact a policy you prefer?

 

And you wonder why you're getting push back....


This isn't about science or anything, this is just some political game to you where you want to be on the winning side. You can talk big game online about how noble you are.

 

Just think about what you wrote.  seriously. 
Don't see *any* issues with that?
 

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Just now, BlatantEcho said:

You advocate for military force against its own citizens to enact a policy you prefer?

 

And you wonder why you're getting push back....


This isn't about science or anything, this is just some political game to you where you want to be on the winning side. You can talk big game online about how noble you are.

 

Just think about what you wrote.  seriously. 
Don't see *any* issues with that?
 

Now that the Pfizer vaccine has FDA approval, the military will require all of its members to be vaccinated. WTF is wrong with you?

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8 minutes ago, IStream said:

Now that the Pfizer vaccine has FDA approval, the military will require all of its members to be vaccinated. WTF is wrong with you?

I think you mean the US Military will mandate it's troops to get vaccinated? Then you are correct. 

The way you wrote, you sounded to be advocating for US military troops to force citizens to get vaccinated.

 

Your wording was very ambiguous and incredibly sloopy, but apologies if you meant the former.

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BE realizes he is on the losing side of this argument, hence his paranoid behavior. He and his ilk are slowly going to be squeezed out of regular society because of their refusal to get vaccinated through some bizarre belief in their "freedom". They have no sense of community responsibility so they have to retreat from society. Vaccination mandates are now going to become widespread for work and access to public places, etc. Any situation that involves groups of people will require full vaccination, let alone travel to other countries. And he hates that reality while the rest of us embrace it responsibly.

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3 hours ago, TheDragon said:

BE realizes he is on the losing side of this argument, hence his paranoid behavior. He and his ilk are slowly going to be squeezed out of regular society because of their refusal to get vaccinated through some bizarre belief in their "freedom". They have no sense of community responsibility so they have to retreat from society. Vaccination mandates are now going to become widespread for work and access to public places, etc. Any situation that involves groups of people will require full vaccination, let alone travel to other countries. And he hates that reality while the rest of us embrace it responsibly.

Lol, I've never been more free in my life.

In fact, if nothing else, this entire episode has been a net positive for me, personally.
I've bucked the trend, kept traveling, and enjoyed the world.

You boomers are screwing up the world so fast - it's actually great.
The sooner you all go senile and leave the world alone, then maybe we can rebuild what you shit all over.

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The Province of BC announced vaccine passports yesterday.  They are doing it because the federal government passport program is too slow.  It will be phone-based.  Sounds like it could be hacked. 

No backlash here as far as I can tell.  The people here are all for it.  We have a few anti-vax loonies like anywhere else but they are small and not as vocal.

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BC restrictions if you are not vaxxed. Surprisingly no medical (immune compromised) or religious exemptions. I don't mind no religious but I think the no immune compromised exemptions to be strange.

indoor ticketed sporting events
indoor concerts
indoor theatre/dance/symphony events
restaurants (indoor and patio dining)
night clubs
casinos
movie theatres
fitness centres/gyms (excluding youth recreational sport)
businesses offering indoor high-intensity group exercise activities
organized indoor events (e.g., weddings, parties, conferences, meetings, workshops)
discretionary organized indoor group recreational classes and activities
student housing on college and university campuses

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I can think of two explanations:

1. Unvaxxed is unvaxxed, whether you've got a medical reason or not. If someone who's unvaxxed goes to an event and gets covid and dies, there might be a liability issue.

2. Maybe there are enough anti-vax docs out there that it'd be as easy to fraudulently claim a medical exemption as it would be to fake a vaccination card. 

There are probably others.

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On 8/23/2021 at 9:32 PM, RobG said:

It all depends on the context of "effectiveness". The 84% is against hospitalisation, not infection. The Israel study is 88% against hospitalisation, 39% against infection.

That hospitalization effectiveness has dropped further.  60% of those hospitalised with Covid-19 at August 15 were vaccinated. 

What is concerning with the Pzifer vaccine is the drop in efficacy against infection.  Assuming that the definition of infection is a level that can be measured by a standard Covid-19 test then the fact that breakthrough infections are increasing (according to CDC data) is serious given the mode of action of the mRNA vaccines. 

The Pzifer vaccine mode is centred on the spike protein only.  Doesn't that put an unnatural selective evolutionary pressure on the virus?  That is if a vaccinated person is infected the virus still reproduces and evolves therefore the evolutionary pressures are driven by the reaction of one spike protein.  So it is inevitable that the virus will evolve to evade this mode of action.  Well that was what I was taught at school regarding Darwin's theory of evolution and selective pressure.  Why did Giraffes grow long necks?  To survive in their niche not to see further than any other species.

I'd be interested to hear views to the contrary particularly on the Pzifer mode of action.

Most of the debate is centred on banning the unvaccinated but that seems pointless in Israel.

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The covidiots are finally seeing the light as they watch infection rates skyrocket in their states and hospitalizations and deaths climb rapidly. Vaccination rates have doubled in most of these southern states in the past month. Here's just one, Florida. You can explore the other states here - https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-trends

1136869235_ScreenShot2021-08-24at5_08_09PM.png.7051238b27dd7315fc8e908f073034a4.png

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

That hospitalization effectiveness has dropped further.  60% of those hospitalised with Covid-19 at August 15 were vaccinated

Where do you get that bullshit idea? In BC where I live:

Adjusted for population, 6.56 unvaccinated people per 100,000 in B.C. were hospitalized that week compared to 0.37 per 100,000 who were fully vaccinated, a rate 17.7 times higher

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/unvaccinated-vaccinated-covid-data-bc-1.6151008

In the US:

Unvaccinated people are about 29 times more likely to be hospitalized with Covid-19 than those who are fully vaccinated, according to a CDC study released Tuesday.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/cdc-study-shows-unvaccinated-people-are-29-times-more-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html

image.png.ceb399f2756d867f04b129091fd7b965.png

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html

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33 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

The covidiots are finally seeing the light as they watch infection rates skyrocket in their states and hospitalizations and deaths climb rapidly. Vaccination rates have doubled in most of these southern states in the past month. Here's just one, Florida. You can explore the other states here - https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccination-trends

1136869235_ScreenShot2021-08-24at5_08_09PM.png.7051238b27dd7315fc8e908f073034a4.png

Does that graph distinguish between those getting their first dose and second dose? 

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5 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Where do you get that bullshit idea? In BC where I live:

 

I wasn't referring to BC, Canada.  I was referring to Israel, Middle East and quoting from the article linked below.  It was in response to @RobG's post about Israel.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

my apologies. Israel seems very different. Our new cases in BC are almost all Delta too but we are not seeing the same rates

All good.  Yes Israel seems really weird with 78% level of the eligible population fully vaccination and nearly a million having a third shot!

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B.C. starts back to full-time masking indoors, Wednesday August 25th.

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8 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

That hospitalization effectiveness has dropped further.  60% of those hospitalised with Covid-19 at August 15 were vaccinated.

Israel has a 78% vaccination rate in persons 12 or older and Delta is much more contagious than other strains so of course the percentage of vaccinated people getting infected appears high.

What you need to compare is the number of infections vs number of hospitalisations in the two cohorts: vaccinated and unvaccinated (and probably by age too). Delta does not seem to be more deadly or cause more hospitalisations per case, but because it's so infectious and causes high cases, the hospitalisations are high.

Yes, Pfizer does lose effectiveness over time faster than Az, but it starts at a higher effectiveness so after about 6 months they're about the same. You are far better off to have had either vaccination than nothing if you catch Covid.

It also seems that a 6 month booster will be necessary, Covid is a moving target. No doubt an Echo variant will arise that changes the game again and all the stuff we're referencing now is no longer applicable.

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Dr Morgan, an Associate Professor at Sydney University, appeared alongside the NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian at a press conference this morning to describe what she has seen first-hand.

Here's an edited transcript of what she said.

"I know that some people are still worried about getting vaccinated so I wanted to share some stories with you about what it's like and how it feels to fall ill with COVID-19.

And my hope is that when we can understand a little bit more about how it feels to get sick with COVID-19 we might transfer some of our anxieties about the vaccine to feeling a bit more anxious about the illness and what we can do constructively to reduce our chances of falling ill with this.

Once you're exposed to virus, most of us have very, very few symptoms in the early days....they will be the ordinary cold and flu symptoms of headache, a bit of a sore throat, maybe a little bit of a cough. Some people have muscle aches and some people have fever in those early days. But some people become breathless and dizzy. And these are the sorts of symptoms that need urgent medical assistance.

If you have COVID-19, and you feel breathless, you have trouble breathing or you're feeling dizzy, you need to call an ambulance. An ambulance is free, your medical care will be free, and there will be people who can care for you even if English is not your first language.

The symptoms of COVID-19 that are affecting many of the patients that I've been caring for in the last few weeks include a really severe headache, not just a little bit of a headache but a really severe migraine-like headache that makes you sensitive to light, a stiff neck and takes more than just Panadol to relieve it. It's really awful.

Many of my patients have a terrible cough, the sort of cough that leaves you breathless and they can't move or speak or walk without the cough becoming really, really terrible. Lots of patients have diarrhoea. Lots of patients have nausea. They just can't eat or drink anything. And people feel so overwhelmingly fatigued, all they can do is lie on the bed.

Some of these patients become increasingly breathless. Initially, just breathless, walking quickly or making the bed, but as time goes by, they become breathless walking or even talking.

If anybody is at home with symptoms this severe, they need to call an ambulance. Don't ring up and make a GP appointment, call an ambulance. Because these are the sorts of symptoms and signs that tell me that the COVID-19 illness is progressing and progressing quickly.

As people become increasingly breathless, the oxygen in their blood starts to drop and they need increasing levels of extra support to keep those oxygen levels up. That might be oxygen via little nasal prongs that go into the nose but as the things progress and as people get sicker, they may need actually a machine to do the breathing for them.

One of the things that I noticed in my most recent days in the hospital was that the heartbreaking stories of patients who were very, very young. I've been looking after patients in their 20s, in their 30s and in their 40s.

Many of whom have very young children, many of whom have partners who are in hospital in other hospitals, dislocating their families. Many of these patients have children who have needed to be admitted to other hospitals so that there is someone who can care for them safely. All of them have extended families who have been impact in many, many ways by the impact of COVID-19 illness. Not one person that I was caring for with severe respiratory illness over the last few days was fully vaccinated.

This does not have to be you... two doses of COVID-19 vaccination will be your suit of armour. It will protect you from getting sick from COVID-19, from needing admission to hospital and from ending up in ICU. Protect your loved ones and protect yourself."

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Here is the bottom line:-

The recent news on the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine is disappointing.  The effectiveness vs Delta is lower than on prior variations .  The vaccine effectiveness declines and likely needs a booster shot .   We hoped for better.

But let us put this in perspective.  This is a decline from 90+ % to 75+%.  It still improves your chances of avoiding severe disease by 75%!   That is a massive improvement in probable outcomes.  It is still really worthwhile getting vaccinated.

In the meantime the safety data continues to be good. I hope and expect we will get further updates on safety as more people are vaccinated and we have longer term data.

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15 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

All good.  Yes Israel seems really weird with 78% level of the eligible population fully vaccination and nearly a million having a third shot!

So...

if 78% of the population is vaccinated, and 60% of those hospitalized due to CoVid are vaccinated.....

that means the vaccine is actually helping, by a lot

- DSK

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5 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

So...

if 78% of the population is vaccinated, and 60% of those hospitalized due to CoVid are vaccinated.....

that means the vaccine is actually helping, by a lot

- DSK

Israel's numbers are really strange. we haven't had a fully vaccinated person in ICU yet AFAIK. and we're mainly using AZ

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I still believe part of the problem is that Pfizer second shot is only three weeks after the first. Pfizer, remember, did not take gov money to develop their vaccine and the length of the shot spacing was largely arbitrary. By going with three weeks compared with four for Moderna, Pfizer not only managed to get their initial approval earlier, they have stayed in front on subsequent approvals, for teenagers, and now for full approval. This has made them the leading western vaccine and generated immense profits. But I think a possible cost is that timing is too short. The three month spacing in the UK, two months in Australia and elsewhere, might well turn out to have been not only a good idea at the time given the crisis in the UK and the shortages in Australia, by conferring greater protection for longer.

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If you are in a covid dumpster fire like the USA was, if you had free choice, would you have picked a vax with 3 or 4 week spacing or one with 8-12 weeks for longer immunity ASSUMING YOU DIDN'T GET COVID WHILE WAITING FOR FULL IMMUNITY?

The longer spacing was in part rationing, cost, and the feeling it wasn't a race. I don't think they had data until later about duration of immunity.

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1 hour ago, ShortForBob said:

Israel's numbers are really strange. we haven't had a fully vaccinated person in ICU yet AFAIK. and we're mainly using AZ

I wonder if the Israel numbers reflect dense housing conditions, close community contact or something?  

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

If you are in a covid dumpster fire like the USA was, if you had free choice, would you have picked a vax with 3 or 4 week spacing or one with 8-12 weeks for longer immunity ASSUMING YOU DIDN'T GET COVID WHILE WAITING FOR FULL IMMUNITY?

The longer spacing was in part rationing, cost, and the feeling it wasn't a race. I don't think they had data until later about duration of immunity.

At the time this past spring I advocated for three month gap, even started a thread on it. And compromised with my wife by delaying my second Moderna shot by two months. I still think it would have been a good idea for the whole country. Too late now. We will see what happens with the UK and Australia and Canada, my prediction is they will not need third shots, at least this year.

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14 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

At the time this past spring I advocated for three month gap, even started a thread on it. And compromised with my wife by delaying my second Moderna shot by two months. I still think it would have been a good idea for the whole country. Too late now. We will see what happens with the UK and Australia and Canada, my prediction is they will not need third shots, at least this year.

Ok.  I sure would not have wanted to wait two extra months until June 1 to be fully vaccinated with Moderna here. I got my doctor visits, tooth cleaning, haircut, mani pedi, early mammogram (good thing), and even a short but in retrospect blissful trip in feeling free before Delta started burning the house down. I even went to grocery stores! I bought plants! We went to a restaurant!

I am likely much older than you.

But since we have plenty of vaccines, I see no problem with an 8 month booster. That would start September 2021. They already are offering immunocompromised people 3rd shots, walkin or appointment at a pharmacy chain nearby. 

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Well, if the US had used a three-month delay, or more likely a compromise two-month delay for both mRNA vaccines, older folk would have had their second shot in March, like me, or maybe April. Recall that a single shot of the mRNA vaccine gave very good protection against the original strain after two weeks, so such a delay would not have caused major problems. And it would mean they were well protected for the Alpha surge in late spring, which was not that serious, and plenty of time for resistance to Delta. It would also have allowed earlier first shots for those in the 50-60 age range, which would surely have helped against Alpha in the late spring. But I understand why Fauci and the FDA and CDC etc were not willing to use their judgement to modify the rules, and back in December it would have been hard to anticipate the variant changes we have seen.

If I understand correctly, Australia is sticking with a two-month delay for their two vaccines, so we will have four large datasets to compare, albeit with a lot of other confounding factors. Israel and USA with 3/4 week delay, and Australia and UK with 2/3 month delay. A lot of those confounding factors can be avoided by direct measurements of immune response, rather than just breakthrough case rates.

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So far the people confirmed or expected to be unvaxxed at my school are right wing bible thumpers or jocks, and since leadership is stupid we had a full staff meeting in the caf again with mingling of 'who's got this color card' etc ( I waited outside with other people who actually read shit ) .  One other suspect is out half every year anyway for back problems or stress or just fucking being a freak.  The jock only turned in one grade during a trimester of distance learning.  Shit like that makes me ashamed of the union protecting him.  We're in a high spread area due to poverty although each of those fucks lives outside of the area in a privileged enclave.  

They can fuck off.  Wess can fuck off.  I'm late to this general topic and had been away from anarchy for a while but I'm getting the impression that Mike Wofsey is Kate for Bob and is unfortunately doing the usual wordy pretzel logic shit with anti-vax as a backdrop and as such, and again unfortunately because I enjoy his/your input on other topics, they/you should fuck off as well.  And anybody with a sock should, you guessed it, fuck right off.

 

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37 minutes ago, Owen said:

So far the people confirmed or expected to be unvaxxed at my school are right wing bible thumpers or jocks, and since leadership is stupid we had a full staff meeting in the caf again with mingling of 'who's got this color card' etc ( I waited outside with other people who actually read shit ) .  One other suspect is out half every year anyway for back problems or stress or just fucking being a freak.  The jock only turned in one grade during a trimester of distance learning.  Shit like that makes me ashamed of the union protecting him.  We're in a high spread area due to poverty although each of those fucks lives outside of the area in a privileged enclave.  

They can fuck off.  Wess can fuck off.  I'm late to this general topic and had been away from anarchy for a while but I'm getting the impression that Mike Wofsey is Kate for Bob and is unfortunately doing the usual wordy pretzel logic shit with anti-vax as a backdrop and as such, and again unfortunately because I enjoy his/your input on other topics, they/you should fuck off as well.  And anybody with a sock should, you guessed it, fuck right off.

 

Wess "believes" that fact and science is something that depends on his say-so for it to work. Unfortunately there are a lot of similar imbeciles in our society, as an educator it must be very frustrating. KSFB keeps saying he's not Mikey but if not then they are mental twins, very long-winded and cannot do math yet convinced they are God's gift to human intellect.

Ever see 'The Straight Dope' media column? Used to be in our newspaper, been around a long time; an official smart guy answers complex questions in an entertaining way... he's actually undertaken to explain vaccines a couple of times over the years. But you'll appreciate his tag line: "Fighting Ignorance Since 1973. Sorry, it's taking longer than we thought..."

- DSK

 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

KSFB keeps saying he's not Mikey

I'm not Mikey and I haven't a clue who Mikey is.  There are a number of people who know exactly who I am or at the very least know that I'm not Mikey.  This Mikey chap must be a legend to have left such a lasting impression on some of you.

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15 hours ago, Owen said:

So far the people confirmed or expected to be unvaxxed at my school are right wing bible thumpers or jocks, and since leadership is stupid we had a full staff meeting in the caf again with mingling of 'who's got this color card' etc ( I waited outside with other people who actually read shit ) .  One other suspect is out half every year anyway for back problems or stress or just fucking being a freak.  The jock only turned in one grade during a trimester of distance learning.  Shit like that makes me ashamed of the union protecting him.  We're in a high spread area due to poverty although each of those fucks lives outside of the area in a privileged enclave.  

They can fuck off.  Wess can fuck off.  I'm late to this general topic and had been away from anarchy for a while but I'm getting the impression that Mike Wofsey is Kate for Bob and is unfortunately doing the usual wordy pretzel logic shit with anti-vax as a backdrop and as such, and again unfortunately because I enjoy his/your input on other topics, they/you should fuck off as well.  And anybody with a sock should, you guessed it, fuck right off.

 

So many angry people LOL.  Just because I will not tell you what to do or pay you any attention when you tell me what to do.  You live your life your way.  I'll live my life my way.  Have a nice day! 

Good grief you fatties are sooo sensitive.

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Why does living your life your way involve monitoring and responding to other people's remarks? Seems you are a prisoner of other people's opinions...vigilant to monitor and respond. And also to express disdain for what you may actually fear more than illness or death... becoming fat. That's not very free. It's actually codependent.  #sad 

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If that's what sustains you, then you are indeed dependent on us. 

Afterthought:

Do you know FishFood?  

Edited by NeedAClew
Afterthought
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Illinois now requiring vaccination or regular tests for all educators, from kindergarden to university. And Chicago requiring vaccination for all employees. About time. All public employees country-wide should be required to vaccinate, there is no excuse.

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On 8/26/2021 at 12:32 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

 This Mikey chap must be a legend in his own lunchtime to have left such a lasting impression on some of you.

FTFY Mike.

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18 hours ago, Wess said:

So many angry people LOL.  Just because I will not tell you what to do or pay you any attention when you tell me what to do.  You live your life your way.  I'll live my life my way.  Have a nice day! 

Good grief you fatties are sooo sensitive.

WessGrimReaper.png.0a37450f89e4d16172e3c979a5794751.png

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So in my sandbox(think of a  food hall for financial services) a vaccine mandate has been instituted for Sept. 1st. You need to have at least one jab by then in order to enter the work space. We have 7 out of 42 that remain unvaccinated. Annual salaries range from 50k to 500k. Some of the 7 may get a shot in the next few days in order to stay employed, and some may choose to walk away.

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On 8/28/2021 at 1:15 AM, Gangbusters said:

So in my sandbox(think of a  food hall for financial services) a vaccine mandate has been instituted for Sept. 1st. You need to have at least one jab by then in order to enter the work space. We have 7 out of 42 that remain unvaccinated. Annual salaries range from 50k to 500k. Some of the 7 may get a shot in the next few days in order to stay employed, and some may choose to walk away.

good news all round then, you get to work with vaxxed people and the commies move on

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On 8/24/2021 at 12:35 PM, Zonker said:

BC restrictions if you are not vaxxed. Surprisingly no medical (immune compromised) or religious exemptions. I don't mind no religious but I think the no immune compromised exemptions to be strange.

indoor ticketed sporting events
indoor concerts
indoor theatre/dance/symphony events
restaurants (indoor and patio dining)
night clubs
casinos
movie theatres
fitness centres/gyms (excluding youth recreational sport)
businesses offering indoor high-intensity group exercise activities
organized indoor events (e.g., weddings, parties, conferences, meetings, workshops)
discretionary organized indoor group recreational classes and activities
student housing on college and university campuses

None of the vaccines in Canada are MLV / attenuated AFAIK.    None can cause actual disease.  On the other hand, your immune system is too fragile for the vaccine it’s too fragile for the above events in normal times.   
 

I’m personally willing to be educated on why the vaccine might pose a greater danger then the disease to an immune compromised individual.    A person suffering an overactive immune system (immune mediated disease) or a heavily challenged immune system (already struggling against another disease) are the exceptions I can visualize, subject to an immunologist’s better judgement.   
 

Until the deity starts reliably paying hospital bills, a single payer system has the right to override religious exemptions.    IMO a third party in the US should have the right, even obligation, to control rate increases for the rest.

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

That would be "Rand Paul, MD"

I thought he was a DO?

Certainly a good example of a guy who doesn't practice and should have his license looked at pretty carefully before being renewed. Calling him a "doctor" is a disgrace to the profession... many consider it a calling (and he pretty obviously has not heard it)

- DSK

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12 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I thought he was a DO?

Certainly a good example of a guy who doesn't practice and should have his license looked at pretty carefully before being renewed. Calling him a "doctor" is a disgrace to the profession... many consider it a calling (and he pretty obviously has not heard it)

- DSK

He didn't see eye to eye (pun there..) with the state certification board so started his own - him, wife and FIL, so problem solved. So he is still an MD I think but hasn't practised for some time.

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

He didn't see eye to eye (pun there..) with the state certification board so started his own - him, wife and FIL, so problem solved. So he is still an MD I think but hasn't practised for some time.

Well, all this medical license stuff is a tremendous limit on our basic FREEE-EEE-DOM!! to declare ourselves the smartest mofo walking and to go a-doctorin' on anybody that will believe you. Why the fuck should the goddam gubbermint get to say who is and who isn't a doctor? All that science shit is for the birds. If you're a true RWNJ libertarian then you are completely at ease with the principle of blaming the victim, anybody the Dr. Paul doesn't cure completely, why it's their own fault.

- DSK

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20 hours ago, TheDragon said:

Another one bites the dust. He was only 30 and has four kids. You could not be more stupid or more selfish.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/08/caleb-wallace-texas-san-angelo-mask-covid-protests.html

The widow says she has had her kids vaccinated but they look under 12 to me

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6 hours ago, Lark said:

I’m personally willing to be educated on why the vaccine might pose a greater danger then the disease to an immune compromised individual.    A person suffering an overactive immune system (immune mediated disease) or a heavily challenged immune system (already struggling against another disease) are the exceptions I can visualize, subject to an immunologist’s better judgement.

My brother had a pretty unusual/rare condition "Transverse Myelitis". (1400 cases/year in US. One evening he couldn't feel his chest. Moved rapidly to his legs over a few hours. He got himself to a clinic then was sent to the big hospital in Vancouver by ambulance. It's an inflammation of the spinal cord. Very poorly understood but it could have put him in a wheelchair. He couldn't walk for weeks. Anyway his seemed to be a very auto-immune type and was told by his doctor NOT to get a vaccine. He's 54 and very overweight so he would be a normal covid hospital/fatality.  I was pushing him to get the vaccine but shut up when he told me of his doctor's advice.

 

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On 8/24/2021 at 1:32 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

That hospitalization effectiveness has dropped further.  60% of those hospitalised with Covid-19 at August 15 were vaccinated. 

 

That might just be the simple math of vaccinations. If 100% of the people were vaxxed, then 100% of all hospitalizations would be of vaxxed folks.  In Israel, my understanding is that the vulnerable are damn close to 100% vaxxed. So...

 

My question would be the "but how many are in the hospital"  - as I'd expect it to be a fraction of the number they'd expect if no one was vaxxed.

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3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

That might just be the simple math of vaccinations. If 100% of the people were vaxxed, then 100% of all hospitalizations would be of vaxxed folks.  In Israel, my understanding is that the vulnerable are damn close to 100% vaxxed. So...

 

My question would be the "but how many are in the hospital"  - as I'd expect it to be a fraction of the number they'd expect if no one was vaxxed.

I suggest you do some research.  The surge is related to  doubled dosed immunity waning after the arrival of Delta.  

Israel quickly doubled dosed its population BEFORE the realisation that immunity wanes and a third booster shot is required.

The Pzifer data indicated waning immunity as early as January to March this year.

The question is will the third booster immunity last.

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6 hours ago, Raz'r said:
On 8/24/2021 at 4:32 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

.....  (in Israel) ... 60% of those hospitalised with Covid-19 at August 15 were vaccinated. 

 

That might just be the simple math of vaccinations. If 100% of the people were vaxxed, then 100% of all hospitalizations would be of vaxxed folks.  In Israel, my understanding is that the vulnerable are damn close to 100% vaxxed. So...

 

My question would be the "but how many are in the hospital"  - as I'd expect it to be a fraction of the number they'd expect if no one was vaxxed.

What, you suddenly expect Mikey (or Mikey Jr, if he's really not Mikey as he insists) to understand basic math?

- DSK

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28 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

It is a fact.  I'll let you redefine it with "meaning".

BTW did you know that titre means the same as titer?

I sense that you are getting wary of having your dumbassery exposed.

Maybe you're smarter than I thought.

- DSK

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Two interesting articles on the vaxed sick observations. The more vaxxed there are, the more sick vaxxed there are. Also even more vaxxed unsick but that's not catchy. 

Simpson's Paradox

https://towardsdatascience.com/simpsons-paradox-and-interpreting-data-6a0443516765

Are the sick and unsick vaxxed groups really the same? 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/briefing/vaccine-immunity-booster-shots.html

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

You have no idea.  But as a hint just for a moment consider that I'm interested primarily in the science.  

So please enlighten the masses. What is your proposed solution?
1. Let Covid run rampant and let the chips fall as they may!
2. Encourage vaccines to aid prevention and bad outcomes?

3. Other drugs that you feel are effective?

4. Something else? What do you have?

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

You have no idea.  But as a hint just for a moment consider that I'm interested primarily in the science.  

 

14 minutes ago, Gangbusters said:

So please enlighten the masses. What is your proposed solution?
1. Let Covid run rampant and let the chips fall as they may!
2. Encourage vaccines to aid prevention and bad outcomes?

3. Other drugs that you feel are effective?

4. Something else? What do you have?

You seem to suffer from the common problem that scientists are there to solve your problems.  The job of scientists is to collect information, it is someone else's job to make use of that information, for example it's the engineers that design a bridge that scientists may have developed new materials that may be available. It is up to the medical profession to decide when to apply a new vaccine, not the scientists that developed it.

So when you ask someone who expresses an interest in science, to propose a solution to the world's problems you are simply expressing your ignorance of how the world works.

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3 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

 

You seem to suffer from the common problem that scientists are there to solve your problems.  The job of scientists is to collect information, it is someone else's job to make use of that information, for example it's the engineers that design a bridge that scientists may have developed new materials that may be available. It is up to the medical profession to decide when to apply a new vaccine, not the scientists that developed it.

So when you ask someone who expresses an interest in science, to propose a solution to the world's problems you are simply expressing your ignorance of how the world works.

Fine, then the person interested in the science should state the facts and leave the opinions and commentary out of it.

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32 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

 

You seem to suffer from the common problem that scientists are there to solve your problems.  The job of scientists is to collect information, it is someone else's job to make use of that information, for example it's the engineers that design a bridge that scientists may have developed new materials that may be available. It is up to the medical profession to decide when to apply a new vaccine, not the scientists that developed it.

So when you ask someone who expresses an interest in science, to propose a solution to the world's problems you are simply expressing your ignorance of how the world works.

Really?   There is such a thing as applied…(insert discipline here).   It is gradually merging with engineering, but that’s arguing semantics.   My dad did applied research (a drug for heroin addiction amongst other papers) and basic research on neurophysiology.    That is common.   That’s why American universities are surrounded by biotech companies trying to capitalize on promising discoveries, hoping to develop them to the point a major company buys them and attempts to turn an idea into a product (new test, drug or implant).  Reality is not the ivory tower of pure knowledge, the Ivy League schools do the same thing. 
 

who does offer solutions in your world?   Clearly not the politicians.   Regulators try to control problems but that usually falls short of a solution.

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15 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

 

You seem to suffer from the common problem that scientists are there to solve your problems.  The job of scientists is to collect information, it is someone else's job to make use of that information, for example it's the engineers that design a bridge that scientists may have developed new materials that may be available. It is up to the medical profession to decide when to apply a new vaccine, not the scientists that developed it.

So when you ask someone who expresses an interest in science, to propose a solution to the world's problems you are simply expressing your ignorance of how the world works.

 

3 minutes ago, Lark said:

Really?   There is such a thing as applied…(insert discipline here).   It is gradually merging with engineering, but that’s arguing semantics.   My dad did applied research (a drug for heroin addiction amongst other papers) and basic research on neurophysiology.    That is common.   That’s why American universities are surrounded by biotech companies trying to capitalize on promising discoveries, taking them to the point a major company decides to buy them and make their product a commercial reality (new test, drug or implant).  Reality is not the ivory tower of pure knowledge, the Ivy League schools do the same thing. 
 

who does offer solutions in your world?   Clearly not the politicians.   Regulators try to control problems but that usually falls short of a solution.

The people who have the job of solving the pandemic are a team comprising the medical profession, the politicians and the law enforcement group, all lead by an effective leader that is respected by the population at large.  The success or failure of the pandemic is plain to see throughout the world but I guess a lot more people will die before the pandemic is over.

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8 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

 

The people who have the job of solving the pandemic are a team comprising the medical profession, the politicians and the law enforcement group, all lead by an effective leader that is respected by the population at large.  The success or failure of the pandemic is plain to see throughout the world but I guess a lot more people will die before the pandemic is over.

Ok.  You describe a dream of good governance.  I live in the US.   More precisely, I live in a state where the governor has been rendered impotent by his own party and business are tasked with making health policy for themselves, based on profit and loss, complicated by the threat of protest or litigation.    MBAs do not make good public health officials. but a Google search and watching part of a YouTube video makes a person an expert.

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30 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

 

You seem to suffer from the common problem that scientists are there to solve your problems.  The job of scientists is to collect information, it is someone else's job to make use of that information, for example it's the engineers that design a bridge that scientists may have developed new materials that may be available. It is up to the medical profession to decide when to apply a new vaccine, not the scientists that developed it.

So when you ask someone who expresses an interest in science, to propose a solution to the world's problems you are simply expressing your ignorance of how the world works.

Completely wrong Terry.  Do you believe that your classical view still holds?  Can you honestly say that the lines between science, the medical profession, big Pharma and politicians hasn't been blurred?

 

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3 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

 

You seem to suffer from the common problem that scientists are there to solve your problems.  The job of scientists is to collect information, it is someone else's job to make use of that information, for example it's the engineers that design a bridge that scientists may have developed new materials that may be available. It is up to the medical profession to decide when to apply a new vaccine, not the scientists that developed it.

So when you ask someone who expresses an interest in science, to propose a solution to the world's problems you are simply expressing your ignorance of how the world works.

 

2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Completely wrong Terry.  Do you believe that your classical view still holds?  Can you honestly say that the lines between science, the medical profession, big Pharma and politicians hasn't been blurred?

 

You are way off the mark with this one. 

If you think the lines between Doctors, Engineers, Electricians, Plumbers, Lawyers etc are blurred I suggest you try doing their job without the appropriate license and see what happens.

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9 hours ago, Gangbusters said:
10 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

...   ...

So please enlighten the masses. What is your proposed solution?
1. Let Covid run rampant and let the chips fall as they may!
2. Encourage vaccines to aid prevention and bad outcomes?

3. Other drugs that you feel are effective?

4. Something else? What do you have?

He's got the ability to pretend numbers means something bad, until he gets called on it

- DSK

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