Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I submit for your discussion.

anchored out in the lee of poplar island.  But it’s a low island so only real protection was from swells.

wind blowing 10-15

anchored for about an hour or o for kids to swim and have lunch.

boat was sailing at anchor pretty bad.

tried locking the wheel straight, nothing, hard over, nothing. Pulled out a few feet of Genoa, nothing.

i remember hearing that a center cockpit may be prove to sailing at anchor since the dodger and Bimini are more mid ship than aft.  Which could prevent the boat from staying in the wind.  

Wind was blowing from the south,  I’d have to look at what current was doing   

Do I need to invest in a sail to hang from back stay to help as a weather vane

 

00EED2CA-6403-4ADA-9A2D-AF45F9B924B0.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites

The last edition of Good Old Boat (The Anchoring Issue) had a good article on preventing yawing. One of the ways is a riding sail. Apparently the split V is much better than a flat sail.

image.png.0b5664eadfe3679a74032a4508ac2444.png

...from the GOB article by Drew Frye.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

A mizzen works best. All chain rode reduces it compared to chain/rope. I should think genoa would make it much worse. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Air drag aft, water drag forward.

Hanging a chain and a milk crate on your rode, right where it will be in water when the rode is tightening, will also stop it.

I've always thought it would be nice for a cruising boat to have a little daggerboard built right into the forefoot. Adding wind drag aft is easy and much more convenient but it is a bad idea for storm anchoring. One of those angled-triangles is easier to stow than a milk crate though.

FB- Doug

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bryanjb said:

Kick a bucket over the transom

Actually more effective from the bow, or better, the rode (yes, I have tested this).

A drogue or a sting of Davis Rockerstoppers are better.

---

 

It would be good to know more about the OPs boat.

  • Dinghy on the bow is bad. Reachers on furlers are bad.
  • Chain rode helps. If rope rode, try a kellet (loops of chain secured to the rode make an easy to handle kellet).
  • A bridle is a huge help on multies, not so much on monos.
  • V-riding sails help a lot. Single panel riding sails, sometimes yes, sometimes not so much.
  • Yes, the current can be a bugger. I remember watching my boat do about 15 360s while eating dinner in Slaughter Creek. It was not yawing, it was wind-against-tide. It's hard to get out of it at Poplar Island unless you have quite shallow draft, and some of the holding ground is terrible (south side). Try a no-current location for comparison.
  • Bahamian moor and variations. Two anchors will solve the anchor security problem, though the boat will still change headings. That said, there are tricks to doing this without creating tangles.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Run a line from the anchor rode to a cleat at the aft end of to boat.  When you tighten it, it will put the boat on an angle and stop the yawning. 

This works a treat until the wind dies.  Then it makes a hell of a mess wrapped around your keel and rudder.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bryanjb said:

Kick a bucket over the transom

I have a bucket. Will try that next time.  

 

2 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

A mizzen works best. All chain rode reduces it compared to chain/rope. I should think genoa would make it much worse. 

Not adding a mizzen, and I reduced my all chain to 30’ of chain and 200’ of rhode to make handling easier since I don’t have an electric windlass.  Yeah I was spitballing with the Genoa.  Figured it did not cost anything to try. 

I have a windscoop for the aft cabin that might help but being it would be behind the dodger might not see much wind.  

2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Banner Marine makes a v-shaped riding sail which they call a "FinDelta"

It gets a good write-up in https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/rest-easy-with-a-riding-sail

 

Thanks for the link.   I’ll take a look at it.   I was thinking of a diy approach as well.   

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thin,  I was on the north west of poplar, near the protected anchorage where the barges are.  But I was not in the anchorage.

the big signs at the entrance that said “danger submerged rocks” left me wary of entering and anchoring...  even though navionics charts showed plenty of depth.

8 minutes ago, py26129 said:

Run a line from the anchor rode to a cleat at the aft end of to boat.  When you tighten it, it will put the boat on an angle and stop the yawning. 

This works a treat until the wind dies.  Then it makes a hell of a mess wrapped around your keel and rudder.

I did try running the line through the bow roller, and also just from the chock a few feet from the bow to try to get the bow off centered a bit.  But it didn’t help   I could try a version of that and going to the midship cleat and vary the angles

 

my boat is a moody 376  center cockpit with an ugly ass dodger/Bimini main flaked on boom   I was in 11 feet of water  had 90’ of scope out 

Link to post
Share on other sites

When you design a boat to sail at anchor, it does what it is designed to do. Any many modern boats are designed to do just that. Poop decks and mizzens weren't just for show after all. You need to recreate some windage aft. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If conditions are calm simply anchor by the stern. 
 

Riding sails aft do not always work. 
 

I think a drag device like a bucket will be more effective at the bow…on the chain near the surface…rather than astern… my guess. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fleetwood said:

A used dinghy jib as a riding sail; cheap experiment?

I have a sailing dink main only. That would be worth giving a shot.  Might be a bit large though. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Ishmael said:

The last edition of Good Old Boat (The Anchoring Issue) had a good article on preventing yawing. One of the ways is a riding sail. Apparently the split V is much better than a flat sail.

image.png.0b5664eadfe3679a74032a4508ac2444.png

...from the GOB article by Drew Frye.

This photo doesn't enlarge well for me. What are we looking at here? Is it two separate triangles attached at the heads?

Link to post
Share on other sites

look at the video in twolegged  post. shows it better

but it three triangles which form a pyramid  leading triangle goes forward,  and the two aft triangles are pulle ed out towards the stern corners.

looking at it from above  looks like this >-

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

look at the video in twolegged  post. shows it better

but it three triangles which form a pyramid  leading triangle goes forward,  and the two aft triangles are pulle ed out towards the stern corners.

looking at it from above  looks like this >-

Looks like a brilliant way to get more windage aft. With enough windage aft, she'll hang like a proper windvane to the wind. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the wind isn't clocking around alot a light stern anchor is easy.  Drop in the dingy and grind up on a primary winch.  Keel shape current etc have a big effect as well so a good solution for one boat doesn't always work well with another.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

Thin,  I was on the north west of poplar, near the protected anchorage where the barges are.  But I was not in the anchorage.

the big signs at the entrance that said “danger submerged rocks” left me wary of entering and anchoring...  even though navionics charts showed plenty of depth.

I did try running the line through the bow roller, and also just from the chock a few feet from the bow to try to get the bow off centered a bit.  But it didn’t help   I could try a version of that and going to the midship cleat and vary the angles

 

my boat is a moody 376  center cockpit with an ugly ass dodger/Bimini main flaked on boom   I was in 11 feet of water  had 90’ of scope out 

You had 90' of rode out. Scope = rode / (depth + free board) ~= 90/(11+3) = 6.4. Just nomenclature.

The simplest test riding sail is a small diamond of tarp spread over an elevated boom. Very strong and very effective. The higher you lift the boom, the greater the correcting force. The boom provides great support.

Over-boom riding sail

I have not been to the north end of Poplar island this year, but to my knowledge it is an active construction area with a lot of big rock in the water. Not a place I would anchor. I was referring to the cove between the original Poplar Island and Coaches Island. Too shallow for you.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

If the wind isn't clocking around alot a light stern anchor is easy.  Drop in the dingy and grind up on a primary winch.

Unless you are in an area with low tidal range, surely the next step is to remember to adjust the anchor line every hour, to avoid being swamped when the tide rises and swinging loose when the tide ebbs.

Yeah, you'd probably drag the anchor rather than go under, but if you want the boat to stay still then you're gonna need the anchor line all night.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried a well built dual riding sail on a 54. Didn’t do shit. So I tried tripping the air flow along the hull with a bunch of fenders. And it worked the same. 
 

Anchor “under foot” works. Hang something heavy straight down so it touches the bottom. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, thinwater said:

You had 90' of rode out. Scope = rode / (depth + free board) ~= 90/(11+3) = 6.4. Just nomenclature.

 

I started with 60' of rode, figured i would not need as much since we where just having lunch.  added more just trying things to settle the boat down.....  you can see in the picture,  where my oscillation got bigger.  but didn't drag...  had a little bit of mud on the anchor.  none on the chain..  the kids wanted to swim so it was any spot to drop and get out of the waves.  Good point on the rocks.  which is why I didn't go inside the anchorage.  but someone else mention might not be a good spot to swim since they are draining the effluent from the spoils.  so who knows what we were swimming in..

It will be some experimentation, and mucking about with things.  and what works at one anchorage and wind speed might not work at another..  i appreciate all the feedback..  the over the boom looks nice and simple , but it gives me one more thing to trip over to get the stern.. since i'm center cockpit. 

but its a sailboat.  I can't make it too easy to move around...

I guess its all moot.  now that the wife knows the AC works.  I'll be dealing with squeeky fenders on pilings and halyards smacking masts in marinas...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I tried a well built dual riding sail on a 54. Didn’t do shit. So I tried tripping the air flow along the hull with a bunch of fenders. And it worked the same. 
 

Anchor “under foot” works. Hang something heavy straight down so it touches the bottom. 

This is called a hammer lock, and yes, it is one of the most effective methods. There should be just enough scope so that it is solidly down, about 1.5:1.

Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Marcjsmith said:

I started with 60' of rode, figured i would not need as much since we where just having lunch.  added more just trying things to settle the boat down.....  you can see in the picture,  where my oscillation got bigger.  but didn't drag...  had a little bit of mud on the anchor.  none on the chain..  the kids wanted to swim so it was any spot to drop and get out of the waves.  Good point on the rocks.  which is why I didn't go inside the anchorage.  but someone else mention might not be a good spot to swim since they are draining the effluent from the spoils.  so who knows what we were swimming in..

It will be some experimentation, and mucking about with things.  and what works at one anchorage and wind speed might not work at another..  i appreciate all the feedback..  the over the boom looks nice and simple , but it gives me one more thing to trip over to get the stern.. since i'm center cockpit. 

but its a sailboat.  I can't make it too easy to move around...

I guess its all moot.  now that the wife knows the AC works.  I'll be dealing with squeeky fenders on pilings and halyards smacking masts in marinas...

 

That is NOT an anchorage! It is an area that will be filled with dredge spoil over the next 15 years. Not safe.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I tried a well built dual riding sail on a 54. Didn’t do shit. So I tried tripping the air flow along the hull with a bunch of fenders. And it worked the same. 
 

Anchor “under foot” works. Hang something heavy straight down so it touches the bottom. 

How heavy are we talking about?  I could use my backup anchor straight under the bow, which I'm guessing might be heavy enough to keep the bow from hunting without worrying about whether it bit.  It would be easier than deploying it from the dinghy in a V or Bahamian arrangement.

I tried the bucket trick on my little 23 footer which hunts all over when at anchor.  It helped some, but not a whole lot.  I think I'm going to need a bigger bucket.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For what it is worth, I just kinda gave up on trying to resolve the thing in general and just try to find a little extra space and advise my less than knowledgable neighbors that yes, my boat is not going to track like your full keel during wind & tide changes.

If it is helpful (probably not) I am a live aboard so have a fully enclosed cockpit during the winter which doubles up as a much needed sun room here in the PNW during the winter..  Nowadays I keep the forward cockpit side panels installed all summer and unroll them which helps a tiny bit most times.

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, DriftingWithoutGrifting said:

Nowadays I keep the forward cockpit side panels installed all summer and unroll them which helps a tiny bit most times

Sounds like your boat doesnt sail much.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, up here in easy PNW not sure what to say.  Definitely do not carry the extra canvas/clutter if I venture offshore.  I also pop in the custom aluminum washboards (that fit with) instead of the cheezy but great for live aboard & coastal swing doors in the companion way.  Along with a few other changes.

I thought we were talking about anchoring, which is typically coastal/near-coastal, other than crossing bars :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have anchor fore and aft. If its only a lunch stop, i use the aft anchor. If i use the fore anchor as primary, i just drop the aft anchor down on the bottom. Takes it up again if the wind changes, or we shall stay the night.

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Corryvreckan said:

How heavy are we talking about?  I could use my backup anchor straight under the bow, which I'm guessing might be heavy enough to keep the bow from hunting without worrying about whether it bit.  It would be easier than deploying it from the dinghy in a V or Bahamian arrangement.

I tried the bucket trick on my little 23 footer which hunts all over when at anchor.  It helped some, but not a whole lot.  I think I'm going to need a bigger bucket.

Yes, any anchor will work. You don't need it to set, just to drag.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/28/2021 at 12:08 AM, Marcjsmith said:

I submit for your discussion.

anchored out in the lee of poplar island.  But it’s a low island so only real protection was from swells.

wind blowing 10-15

anchored for about an hour or o for kids to swim and have lunch.

boat was sailing at anchor pretty bad.

tried locking the wheel straight, nothing, hard over, nothing. Pulled out a few feet of Genoa, nothing.

i remember hearing that a center cockpit may be prove to sailing at anchor since the dodger and Bimini are more mid ship than aft.  Which could prevent the boat from staying in the wind.  

Wind was blowing from the south,  I’d have to look at what current was doing   

Do I need to invest in a sail to hang from back stay to help as a weather vane

 

00EED2CA-6403-4ADA-9A2D-AF45F9B924B0.jpeg

Reduce windage 

windage loads the anchor chain ... straightens out the catenary ... energy is now stored in the straight chain ... this energy pulls the boat forward       and the boat veers port or starboard 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Reduce windage 

windage loads the anchor chain ... straightens out the catenary ... energy is now stored in the straight chain ... this energy pulls the boat forward       and the boat veers port or starboard 

 

Doesn't really make sense except in a narrow range of conditions.

  • One knot more average wind and the surging is the same either way, because the rode tension is once again, the same again.  This solution could make sense for people that only anchor in light to moderate conditions....but that's not when anchors drag.
  • Is the windage forward or aft? Makes a big difference. Adding an awning aft can reduce yawing, while storing a dinghy on the bow will increase it.

Less windage is good, but not unless you are smart about the changes.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...