Bieker rudder on a J/111?

[Roleur 526]

Heard it's been done.  Recon is now sporting one.  Anyone know anything about it?  

We've been discussing a rudder upgrade.  4 of the 6 boats in our region have already replaced their rudders.  I believe 3 of them still have the same blade configuration.  

Having raced our J/111 for a year now, I can see the appeal of a different blade shape.  

FWIW, looks like it was a 3 sec/mile hit in PHRF.  

[JL92S 426]

What is the rudder upgrade?

[SoggySeattleSailor 2]

First post yay!

Here is my understanding of the rudder changes from talking briefly with someone close to the situation:

1: the rudder post and bearing were substantially under designed and break chronically across most j/111. J boats offers an upgraded bearing/post package that fits in the old profile increasing its diameter from ~80mm to ~82.  The boat owner wants to potentially race off shore and wanted a much stronger setup. The new PB designed rudder is ~100mm.

I have heard of similar poor quality in foil shape on j/boat keel fairing/alignment in other of their production boats, so this seems reasonable.

2: the stock j/111 rudder profile was pretty underwhelming with the maximum camber at around 50% of chord length. This has been brought more inline with a NACA section around 30%. I don’t know the specifics of how much the chord/camber ratios have also been adjusted. But as PB is a foil and hydrodynamic expert, quite possibly a lot. I do know the foil’s overall taper was changed.

3: the Stock rudder is also being retrofitted to work with the new bearing setup  to revert it to the one design blade. not sure if the setup would still qualify in one design, but as it would be the original blade, just a essentially reinforced bearing and post, I would guess it would probably be allowed?

[sinker 5]

only a little different 

[longbeachsailor 0]

really kills much chance of a local one design fleet forming. Does this design really improve much of the boats controllability/performance offshore? 

[ZeeZee 14]

Before doing such an upgrade I would ask for underpinning VPP (or other sound) numbers.

Likely such upgrade are like in high end audio:  many times it's just snake oil sold by a sleek marketing story while in reality there is zero difference. And if many other cases such "upgrades" make the product to perform even worse.  But as the owner paid a lot of money for it he will of course report that the upgrade is substantial and that he is very happy with it.

So therefore: ask for some objective proof that it is indeed an improvement.

[Snowden 503]

for real boatyard bragging rights you need one of these Bieker rudders:

[hrothgar 137]

On 6/28/2021 at 10:58 PM, longbeachsailor said:

really kills much chance of a local one design fleet forming. Does this design really improve much of the boats controllability/performance offshore? 

I guess if you have no aspirations of sailing one-design, that would be OK.  Unless you keep both rudders and swap them out.  Seems like overkill to me.

Hroth

[The Q 793]

On 6/29/2021 at 12:19 PM, Snowden said:

for real boatyard bragging rights you need one of these Bieker rudders:

Only if you fit razor blades between the tubercules to cut the weed..

[ryley 683]

On 6/29/2021 at 6:53 AM, ZeeZee said:

Before doing such an upgrade I would ask for underpinning VPP (or other sound) numbers.

Likely such upgrade are like in high end audio:  many times it's just snake oil sold by a sleek marketing story while in reality there is zero difference. And if many other cases such "upgrades" make the product to perform even worse.  But as the owner paid a lot of money for it he will of course report that the upgrade is substantial and that he is very happy with it.

So therefore: ask for some objective proof that it is indeed an improvement.

go back and research how many 111's have lost their rudders offshore, and you'll quickly come to the conclusion that any rudder is an improvement over the original design, even if its just the post/bearings that are upgraded.

[Swimsailor 1,695]

On 6/28/2021 at 6:19 PM, SoggySeattleSailor said:

: the Stock rudder is also being retrofitted to work with the new bearing setup  to revert it to the one design blade.

 

On 6/28/2021 at 8:58 PM, longbeachsailor said:

really kills much chance of a local one design fleet forming

 

 

[jackolantern 598]

+1 on the PB design. That shit looks awesome. 

[neuronz 70]

On 6/29/2021 at 3:30 AM, sinker said:

only a little different 

Areas seem to be similar. Most obvious difference is a higher aspect ratio which also increases the bending moment and thus requires strengthening the post. The balance has been changed as well with the post positioned further aft. An interesting feature is the slight sweep of the tip.

[SoggySeattleSailor 2]

The foil section also appears to be much narrower making it less draggy, however generating less lift at higher angles of attack.  

Almost looks like the profile 63-009 compared to 65-021.

~1/3 reduction of drag based on the graph and not a large impact on lift until extreme AOA.

it sounds like the post would have needed to be increased substantially even on the old shape, as they were under sized.  
 

the balance and placement of the post is also an interesting change to point out. As the aspect ratio of a foil increases, the distance from the leading edge to the venture of pressure also increases. Moving the post back adjusts for this, keeping the post more in line with the center of pressure and thus balanced. 

Also interesting is that it appears camber max is moving forward on chord length as deeper on the foil. I would hazard here that the sweep and camber reduction further reduce the generation of tip vortices and their drag effectively further improving aspect ratio and drag reduction.

(Images below are from principles of yacht design)

[Roleur 526]

On 6/28/2021 at 7:58 PM, longbeachsailor said:

really kills much chance of a local one design fleet forming. Does this design really improve much of the boats controllability/performance offshore? 

We have 7 J/111's in the PNW.  Only the latest arrival has OD sails.  Everyone else has larger mains and spins, possibly larger jibs too.  OD isn't happening around here.  We can have some great fleet racing though, but at present the boats rate from 39 to 48.  I expect the 48 will go to 45 soonish.  We'll have 5 111's on the line next week for the first time in the PNW.  That should be very good fun.

Our new rudder is on order.  Hoping to stick in in January.

[pironiero 93]

Hey guys, i have a question, are J boats capable of planing?

[danstanford 130]

10 minutes ago, pironiero said:

Hey guys, i have a question, are J boats capable of planing?

Mine sure is. I believe it is model specific up to reasonable levels of wind. 

[pironiero 93]

41 minutes ago, danstanford said:

Mine sure is. I believe it is model specific up to reasonable levels of wind. 

Which one you've got?

[danstanford 130]

1 hour ago, pironiero said:

Which one you've got?

J/88. I know most of the recent J's will plane in winds under 20 kts, some lower than others. 

[LI_sailor 21]

The J/111 planes ~17 knots going downwind

[pironiero 93]

huh, im struggling to understand what are the pros and cons of Jboat in comparacing with something like SF3300, can you please explain?

hull shapes are so different...

[Roleur 526]

Pardon me, pironiero, but would you mind starting a thread with your question?  You are asking possibly the most general question ever about J Boats, in perhaps the most specific thread ever.  This is a thread about one single thing.  The J/111 rudder.  

[pironiero 93]

18 minutes ago, Roleur said:

Pardon me, pironiero, but would you mind starting a thread with your question?  You are asking possibly the most general question ever about J Boats, in perhaps the most specific thread ever.  This is a thread about one single thing.  The J/111 rudder.  

okay, sorry

[woodpecker 74]

On 11/5/2021 at 8:16 AM, LI_sailor said:

The J/111 planes ~17 knots going downwind

At what windspeed?
 

 

[Roleur 526]

17 knots...

[woodpecker 74]

10 minutes ago, Roleur said:

17 knots...

Funny, I look up the ratings certificate with the VPP's on it and does not show anything near 17 knots. 
Are you saying the certificates are wrong?
 

https://data.orc.org/public/WPub.dll/CC/03410001D3C

 

https://j111class.org/images/documents/J111_ORC_Plot.pdf

 

[Roleur 526]

Okay, I'll play along here.  The VPP doesn't show any windspeeds near 17 knots?  I see 20 knots of WIND SPEED on the table you just linked.  

[woodpecker 74]

4 minutes ago, Roleur said:

Okay, I'll play along here.  The VPP doesn't show any windspeeds near 17 knots?  I see 20 knots of WIND SPEED on the table you just linked.  

You are saying the boat goes 17Knts at 17kns of windspeed? Fastest I see at 16knts is 9.95

 

 

 

[Roleur 526]

No.  No one said the boat goes 17 knots in 17 knots of wind speed.  They said the boat planes at 17 knots of wind speed.  No reference to boat speeds has been mentioned.

[Roleur 526]

That said, plenty of J/111's have seen over 20 knots of boat speed.  Of course, that was done in over 20 knots of wind speed.

[MPH 142]

Assuming you ended up going with a Beiker rudder then?

[solosailor 616]

The J/111 certainly planes in wind above 20k and will hit high teens/low 20s peak boat speed when it's really howling.

[George Dewey 119]

5 hours ago, solosailor said:

The J/111 certainly planes in wind above 20k and will hit high teens/low 20s peak boat speed when it's really howling.

Still waiting for the right conditions to try this! It looked like that would be yesterday, but the RC cancelled the race last Thursday when the wind forecast hit 33 kts sustained and gusts about 40. 

[Boomerang 0]

On 6/28/2021 at 3:30 PM, sinker said:

only a little different 

Who designed the new rudder?  How well does it work?  Who built the new rudder?

[Roleur 526]

Paul Bieker designed the rudder.  Paul is the designer that helped fix the Team Oracle AC catamaran in SF to come from behind and win the AC.

Simon Miles at 206 Composites built the rudder.

Don't know how it works.  Installation has been delayed until May.  Recon has the same rudder and they seem happy with it, but they don't actually race very much.  They are super good and usually win, but that group races other boats a lot and the J/111 doesn't go out too often.  

Something interesting I just learned.  If you order a new J/111 rudder from CCI composites with the bigger rudder stock, you get a completely new rudder shape that is more like the Bieker rudder than the original J/111 rudder.  It has a narrower cord and more of a NACA foil shape.  

[Boomerang 0]

I just spoke with CCI.  They haven’t changed the rudder shape, just increased the stock from 80mm to 82.  They could provide me with a new design as long at it fits to the original engineering parameters.

I sail in Hawaii with bigger waves.  The original rudder could be more effective while sailing upwind for driving over the waves.

[Roleur 526]

That is very strange.  I saw photos this weekend of an original rudder from 2012/2013 and a new rudder from CCI that was installed 1 year ago on the same boat.  They were obviously not the same foil shape.  

FWIW - the Bieker rudder uses a 125mm lower bearing.  

[Boomerang 0]

Please let me know if you encounter any issues installing the larger lower bearing.  Also be interested to get your impression as to the handling with the new rudder.

[Roleur 526]

Simon Miles is doing all of the new bearing work.  As he is a professional boatbuilder and has already done one these rudder builds and installations, I don't expect any issues, but we shall see.  Yes, very interested in seeing how the new blade performs. 

[Roleur 526]

Successfully removed the old rudder, cut out the old lower bearing, then fitted and glued the new lower bearing in place.  Today is adding all of the carbon to bond the lower housing to the hull.  We did a test fit of the new rudder to check alignment towards the end of the day yesterday.  

 

[longbeachsailor 0]

@Roleur any idea on the weight difference between the two? Is the bieker one carbon?

[IMR 100]

Weights would be less important than buoyancy.  

[Roleur 526]

The new rudder is just slightly heavier than the old rudder.  Probably mostly due to the larger bearing boss, but also in part, due to the construction of the blade.  Interestingly, the blade is 89% of the area of the stock rudder, 4" longer, slightly narrower chord.  And it doesn't float.  

The notion of the new rudder killing OD racing, is it turns out, a ship that has already sailed.  In our region we have 7 J/111's.  There are currently at least 5 different rudder blades.  In addition, the two stock blades that were replaced by 206 Composites were not the same "stock" blades.  It appears that within 1-2 years, there will be 4 J/111's in our area with the same blade.  The Bieker blade.  

The Bieker designed blade is all carbon.  The stock blade had a carbon post.  Don't know about the blade.  

 

[T sailor 90]

Any idea on the rating effect under ORC or ORR?  

[Roleur 526]

7 hours ago, T sailor said:

Any idea on the rating effect under ORC or ORR?  

No.  We'll do an ORC next year, but won't get a cert for it until next year as well.  

To be clear, that last motivation for the new rudder was a speed improvement.  That may be an outcome, but the overwhelming goal was to have a rudder that won't break.  The next goal was to improve downwind control.  If we achieve those two then we've hit 100% of our goals.  If it turns out to be a faster rudder that is just icing on the cake.  

[George Dewey 119]

How much deeper is the keel than the new rudder? 

[Roleur 526]

At least 6", may 9".  We were able to insert the new rudder into the hull with the keel on the ground, with no worries about scraping the rudder on the ground.