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Trailer Sailor Shroud Lashings-Finish


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I've seen how Colligo does theirs.  I'm just wondering if there isn't a quicker method.  Confess that fiddling with small diameter lines is not something I like to do.  I have created my own system that uses some dyneema loops to extend the chainplate to above the trampoline for easier access--and I'm using ronstan shocks for lashing separators and to create a cascade.  I've even incorporated a small nylon cleat used as a snubber to keep the knots from getting so tight that I need a marlin spike to undo.  But it still takes a good 5 minutes per side to tighten and tie (and vice versa); and there's lots more line to deal with since I have a 8:1 purchase.  Doesn't seem like a lot of time, I know.  I do miss the simplicity of the F242 with shrouds that didn't have to be undone to fold/unfold the boat.  Just looking for someone else's thoughts--but not Colligo's.

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I actually just talked to a rigger about this last week. We're getting new synthetic shrouds for a Discovery 20 trimaran. We were going to use some kind of small lever on each shroud to tension the rig, but the rigger I talked to said there was a new prototype fitting that would let you pull a stopper knot through a keyhole-shaped hole, then pull it up to the narrow part to jam it. I'm not entirely clear on how it works, but he said it was intended for beachcat-sized boats and he thought it would work for our boat. I'll post some details when he gets back to me.

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34 minutes ago, gbkersey said:

Here's how we do ours (canting rig).  Probably over kill.

IMG_2800-cropped.thumb.jpg.fe2defa1af35d808fec6e61854c65ca9.jpg

IS that a jam cleat on the aka to terminate the tensioner?  That's pretty clever and no knots at all.  

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4 hours ago, KONeill said:

I actually just talked to a rigger about this last week. We're getting new synthetic shrouds for a Discovery 20 trimaran. We were going to use some kind of small lever on each shroud to tension the rig, but the rigger I talked to said there was a new prototype fitting that would let you pull a stopper knot through a keyhole-shaped hole, then pull it up to the narrow part to jam it. I'm not entirely clear on how it works, but he said it was intended for beachcat-sized boats and he thought it would work for our boat. I'll post some details when he gets back to me.

that sounds like the new colligo hardware actually....

 

image.thumb.png.854df445dfa42793ffc3189ab4dca5fe.png

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MT - no that setup goes to a pair of spinlock clutches, then some ratchet blocks so that we can put the shrouds on the winches if needed.

 

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42 minutes ago, cprinos said:

that sounds like the new colligo hardware actually....

 

image.thumb.png.854df445dfa42793ffc3189ab4dca5fe.png

Yah, that'd work easy once you get the lengths right.  

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We use a variant of the Colligo system with a fine-grained adjustment adjacent to the Wichard snap shackle.

To tension pull the snap shackle down to a padeye on the aft beam.

544D7E38-5C8D-4E22-B9C9-257233472431.thumb.jpeg.668c5345431e4da3dd47dedd5838d889.jpeg

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

Just buy some cheap #10 winches. Fast and instant 10:1 purchase with no friction loss like deadeyes. 

I haven't seen a portable manual winch (comealong) that is short enough--even a ratchet strap is too long.  While I could shorten the shrouds to make it work, I don't see where I'm saving that much time and I would have to carry the winch with me to undo the shrouds when done for the day.  But thanks for the suggestion.  

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4 hours ago, KONeill said:

Yeah, that looks like it. Interesting idea.

Since the idea is to avoid having to make lots of knots you will have to know how much slack you need to fold/unfold the boat and then correctly get the shrouds that exact length apart (times whatever power you are pulling the lashing)--or else tie and retie the stopper knot which may require use of the marlin spike after a good sail. Still, a good idea.  I may do something like that but make a eyesplice where the stopper knot would go and just luggage tag a button knot to that eye.  Next time out I'll mark the lashings and give one side a try the time after that.  

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My suggestion was mount the winches on the boat. Just have a turning block where the shroud terminates and bring the shroud to the winch. Then cleat it off.

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Boat is very light (900 pounds) and no need for a winch with self tacking jib (2:1 sheet) and ratchet blocks for the spinnaker.  Think of a F18 with a center hull and you won't be far off.  No need to adjust shrouds while underway for a day sailor--just set and forget; but adjusting has to be done to fold and unfold since geometry is such that the floats must dip and rise to go from one stable state (folded) to the other stable state (extended). If I didn't care about rig tension it'd be easy, just leave them with a couple inches of slack and just use a soft shackle.  I could use the main sheet and main halyard to get tension instead of the lashing cascade (like the winch idea); but I still don't see much time savings.  

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How about adjusting the forestay lashing instead instead of both side stays? That would be 1/2 the work and should take 1/2 the time...

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30 minutes ago, Airwick said:

How about adjusting the forestay lashing instead instead of both side stays? That would be 1/2 the work and should take 1/2 the time...

Cool idea but after raising the mast in the parking lot with the trailer winch and pinning the forestay with a clevis, there's no lashing to loosen once you launch.  If my foredeck could be walked on, such a thing would be practical (as would raising/lowering the mast on the water).  

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5 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Boat is very light (900 pounds) and no need for a winch with self tacking jib (2:1 sheet) and ratchet blocks for the spinnaker.  Think of a F18 with a center hull and you won't be far off.  No need to adjust shrouds while underway for a day sailor--just set and forget; but adjusting has to be done to fold and unfold since geometry is such that the floats must dip and rise to go from one stable state (folded) to the other stable state (extended). If I didn't care about rig tension it'd be easy, just leave them with a couple inches of slack and just use a soft shackle.  I could use the main sheet and main halyard to get tension instead of the lashing cascade (like the winch idea); but I still don't see much time savings.  

I have never used it, but that seems to be the limitation of the Colligo system to me.

First, you want to do the stopper knot once, and never have to deal with it again; otherwise, the whole systems loses interest to me. I agree with you, what is supposed to be a quick and easy "set it and forget it" becomes a PITA if you have to redo the stopper knot everytime. So that means that you have to get the tension/length right...

Then, when you unlatch the knot from the figure 8 hole, the tail end of that line is going through the bottom part of the figure 8 hole, until the stopper knot hits the other block on the other end of the purchase. That stopper knot is not going to go through the Colligo system frictionless purchase system on the other block.

So, since this is an 8:1 system (if I understood well how it works), the slack you are going to create by releasing the stopper knot is only 1/8th of the distance between the 2 blocks. Right?

So how much slack do you need? If it is 2", that means that you need 16" between the 2 blocks when everything is set. With 8 back and forth lines and a tail end of at least the same length, that's 12 feet of line...

Do you need 2" slack? Do you need more? Less?

 

I would be interested to get the feedback from people who actually used the Colligo "line terminator"...

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I need 8" of slack.  So that's more than 5 feet of lashing line to detension/tension.  Might have to go back to steel and put a turnbuckle in there attached with a soft shackle.  That way I could detach the shroud with the soft shackle from the chainplate completely (mast raising gear holding up the mast).  Extend the float.  Reattach the soft shackle.  Use the turnbuckle to get the length correct.  May end up using a day or two in the marina fiddling with this stuff.  

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SuperCat catamarans use a Hyfeld lever that KONeill referenced above. The Hyfeld lever only takes up a few inches of slack. The way the system is implemented on SuperCats is through a three part shroud, with the lower two parts being fairly short. The Hyfeld lever connects the uppermost and lowermost sections, bypassing the middle section. For the full extension, the Hyfeld lever is disconnected using a quick pin. To tighten the shroud, the Hyfeld lever is reconnected, then the lever is used for the final tightening. This works pretty well for SuperCats, but some people are uneasy regarding the use of quick pins.

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I don't think I've seen a hyfield lever used on synthetic rigging due to the chafe potential.  Hyfield levers were used on a lot of corsairs before everyone switched to synthetics.  Seems everyone is using cascade systems (which is what I'm doing...it is just PITA for a trailer sailor).

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12 hours ago, Laurent said:

I have never used it, but that seems to be the limitation of the Colligo system to me.

First, you want to do the stopper knot once, and never have to deal with it again; otherwise, the whole systems loses interest to me. I agree with you, what is supposed to be a quick and easy "set it and forget it" becomes a PITA if you have to redo the stopper knot everytime. So that means that you have to get the tension/length right...

Then, when you unlatch the knot from the figure 8 hole, the tail end of that line is going through the bottom part of the figure 8 hole, until the stopper knot hits the other block on the other end of the purchase. That stopper knot is not going to go through the Colligo system frictionless purchase system on the other block.

So, since this is an 8:1 system (if I understood well how it works), the slack you are going to create by releasing the stopper knot is only 1/8th of the distance between the 2 blocks. Right?

So how much slack do you need? If it is 2", that means that you need 16" between the 2 blocks when everything is set. With 8 back and forth lines and a tail end of at least the same length, that's 12 feet of line...

Do you need 2" slack? Do you need more? Less?

I would be interested to get the feedback from people who actually used the Colligo "line terminator"...

 

1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

I need 8" of slack.  So that's more than 5 feet of lashing line to detension/tension.  Might have to go back to steel and put a turnbuckle in there attached with a soft shackle.  That way I could detach the shroud with the soft shackle from the chainplate completely (mast raising gear holding up the mast).  Extend the float.  Reattach the soft shackle.  Use the turnbuckle to get the length correct.  May end up using a day or two in the marina fiddling with this stuff.  

 

23 hours ago, gspot said:

We use a variant of the Colligo system with a fine-grained adjustment adjacent to the Wichard snap shackle.

To tension pull the snap shackle down to a padeye on the aft beam.

544D7E38-5C8D-4E22-B9C9-257233472431.thumb.jpeg.668c5345431e4da3dd47dedd5838d889.jpeg

I have not used it, but I have used our own "Poor Man's Colligo" system above to achieve approximately 8" of slack required to fold the boat. We need to pull about 5.5' of line out of our coarse lashings (dark grey) to tension for sailing, which is about the distance to the aft beam.

We only have about 30" of space between the coarse lashing blocks, so we wouldn't be able to use the Colligo system with the stopper knot without shortening our main shrouds to increase the distance between the coarse lashing blocks, which depending on the amount of slack you need might put the upper block too high off the deck to make it easy to use.

I like the fact that we can fine-tune the rig tension while sailing with the light grey lashing adjacent to the Wichard shackle, which would be difficult and/or dangerous with the Colligo stopper knot system. And without this secondary fine-tune adjustment, I think it would be difficult to position the splices and knots precisely enough with the Colligo stopper knot system to have the shrouds taught in both positions.

As such I would also like to hear from anybody who has used the Colligo system with stopper knot and how they have overcome this.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

I don't think I've seen a hyfield lever used on synthetic rigging due to the chafe potential.  Hyfield levers were used on a lot of corsairs before everyone switched to synthetics.  Seems everyone is using cascade systems (which is what I'm doing...it is just PITA for a trailer sailor).

 

41466CB3-8B77-41D1-AF03-3604534420FE.jpeg

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Thanks.  Now I have seen a hyfield lever with synthetic shrouds.  I suspect it is quick and might provide enough slack for folding and unfolding at the cost of a couple pounds which isn't bad.  I will, however, try a stopper knot approach but not using the colligo system.  I use Ronstan shocks for my cascade since my loads are small enough.  The good thing about them is that the holes are big enough to pass an eyesplice in the lashing.  So I will make an eyesplice where the line exits the last shock when properly tensioned (going to have to do this in the marina).  So after extending the float and tensioning, I'll luggage tag a button knot as a stopper--when done for the day, the button is a nice handle to pull for slack enough to undo the luggage tag.    Might have to move the eyesplice once or twice but eyesplice making/unmaking is quick and pretty easy.  Rig will probably be a little sloppy compared to perfect, but perfect is the enemy of good.

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MT, do you have two sets of stays? I've seen some tris with an inner set for stability (raising etc) and an outer set on the floats. That way you can release the outer set completely for folding and the inner will keep the mast pointing up.

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2 hours ago, OldmateFred said:

MT, do you have two sets of stays? I've seen some tris with an inner set for stability (raising etc) and an outer set on the floats. That way you can release the outer set completely for folding and the inner will keep the mast pointing up.

There are inner stays that are used for raising the mast and they do allow you to release the outer stays for folding/unfolding.  They have to be removed after extending the floats and tensioning the shrouds since the system keeps the mast from rotating.  I could completely remove the attachments for folding and unfolding the boat.  If I trusted a snap shackle to hold up the mast, that would be what I would do; just unsnap, unfold and snap.  But I don't trust snap shackles in applications that are repeatedly slack and then taut like you see in shrouds on a trimaran.  Been dismasted too many times already, don't want to do it again.  Could use a soft shackle instead (which I do trust), but then I'd have to supply tension somehow to bring them together or live with a slack rig.  Rigging the main halyard/main sheet to supply the tension would likely take as much or more time than fiddling with lashings.  There are lots of ways to skin this cat...I'm just looking for the least time consuming.  

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I made the eyesplices yesterday while the boat was in the marina and luggage tagged the button knot and sailed that way.  Worked fine so now my mast will always be centered and the shrouds tight and no making myriad knots in the lashings.  You folks with the colligo system could do something similar without switching to the new figure 8 colligo terminations even if your terminations would not allow an eyesplice to go through.  But you would have to tighten a little more and tie a slip knot (or some loop) in the lashing before luggage tagging the button knot--doesn't have to be a button knot either, could be a snap shackle, or safety hitch pin or what have you.  The idea is to be quick, easy, repeatable and safe.  

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Simple way is use the jib halyard to tension rig, just need to make sure all the various bits are up to the task. Can then have a smaller forestay.

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Video'd the lashing and stopper and also video'd some sailing.

https://youtu.be/Tn6GznjdsX4

 

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Mine is 5:1 on the shroud with 4:1 pulling on the 5:1.  I put a safety loop on the shroud so I can release the perfect amount out on the shroud to raise and lower mast.  

So it's goes like this:

Raise mast with shroud tension on safety loops, (loose but not to much)

Pull 4:1 that pulls 5:1 putting a buttload of tension on shroud to preset mark.  Cleat or tie off 4:1.  

There is 4' between  shroud D ring and back  beam D ring to allow enough room for the 4:1 to get the 5:1 nice and tight.IMG_20210705_073537_359.thumb.jpg.67c5d241495c7ed139d5c02940002859.jpgIMG_20210705_073446_522.thumb.jpg.aed92be12e8a4ab6eda07358e27bf0a8.jpg

 

IMG_20210705_073359_292.jpg

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On 7/5/2021 at 1:51 PM, Crump's Brother said:

Mine is 5:1 on the shroud with 4:1 pulling on the 5:1.  I put a safety loop on the shroud so I can release the perfect amount out on the shroud to raise and lower mast.  

So it's goes like this:

Raise mast with shroud tension on safety loops, (loose but not to much)

Pull 4:1 that pulls 5:1 putting a buttload of tension on shroud to preset mark.  Cleat or tie off 4:1.  

There is 4' between  shroud D ring and back  beam D ring to allow enough room for the 4:1 to get the 5:1 nice and tight.IMG_20210705_073537_359.thumb.jpg.67c5d241495c7ed139d5c02940002859.jpgIMG_20210705_073446_522.thumb.jpg.aed92be12e8a4ab6eda07358e27bf0a8.jpg

 

IMG_20210705_073359_292.jpg

Non-rotating mast i presume?

 

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Other than wanting to cant your mast windward, why would you want extra tension on your shrouds?   Once you get the mast centered why add more grunt?  

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The Colligo stopper knot chains look nice.

Increasing shroud tension is a matter of tradeoffs, you get a tauter forestay, which is usually good upwind, but rotation becomes more difficult. If it's a cat then much of it is usually lost in beam deflection. Tris can get more out of it if the hull and beam triangles are stiff enough. If you just banana the hull then you don't get much effect. The extra ball compression can also be an issue.

One interesting option is the Aussie 505 rake technique from the 80s. Due to their softer Kyrwoods they used to ease rake back without shroud adjustment. They maintained pointing by having a hollow luff jib and used lots of kicker to bend their soft masts and flatten the main. It also required the leeches to open and twist, a lot. Some of this might be hard to achieve in a multi or harder cloths.

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5 hours ago, teamvmg said:

Why so much tension then?

 

His boat looks like a SeaRail in the photos.  If it is, it may be one of the models that are the "insert tube" design rather than fold/unfold on the water with bolted down akas.  In which case the additional tension on the shrouds may be needed to keep the tubes inserted and not wobble with the clearances.

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