Jump to content

Runner/Checkstay/Backstay Question


Recommended Posts

So here's a perfectly stupid question.  I'm looking at adding a semi-fixed backstay to serve as a set of training wheels for the first year while the crew and I get used to a new boat.  The rig is double inline spreaders with a set of jumpers, fractional rig, masthead A-sails, and a very roachy main (slightly more than in the drawing).  It currently has no fixed backstay, just the running backs and checks.  If I were to add a regular backstay with a whip (drawn in red) that was just loose enough to let the main swing through, would it help at all during a jibe if someone screwed up and was late getting the runners/checks on, or would the rig just invert and fall over anyway?  

Ignore any windage or weight aloft issues, this would just be a safety net while we get everyone used to the boat.

 

RR6.PNG

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Monkey said:

So here's a perfectly stupid question.  I'm looking at adding a semi-fixed backstay to serve as a set of training wheels for the first year while the crew and I get used to a new boat.  The rig is double inline spreaders with a set of jumpers, fractional rig, masthead A-sails, and a very roachy main (slightly more than in the drawing).  It currently has no fixed backstay, just the running backs and checks.  If I were to add a regular backstay with a whip (drawn in red) that was just loose enough to let the main swing through, would it help at all during a jibe if someone screwed up and was late getting the runners/checks on, or would the rig just invert and fall over anyway?  

Ignore any windage or weight aloft issues, this would just be a safety net while we get everyone used to the boat.

 

RR6.PNG

The shipyard is full of older masts with damaged , overloaded mastheads caused by modern code sails

 

beware 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the boat has no perm backstay (due to swept back spreaders), what good would one do?

By the time it tightens downwind, the rig will be gone anyway.  Just say'an.

 

Sail Safe!

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, SailRacer said:

If the boat has no perm backstay (due to swept back spreaders), what good would one do?

By the time it tightens downwind, the rig will be gone anyway.  Just say'an.

 

Sail Safe!

It currently has no permanent backstay and doesn’t have swept spreaders. 
 

I was just curious if a fairly cheap solution would provide any safety net, but you pretty much confirmed my thought. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think you can get enough of a whip to clear a larger roached main.  You would really need two backstays and then you introduce the complication of having someone manage the runners and someone else manage the backstays -- too much crew in the back!.

If the rig can't support the masthead kites, then it probably isn't worth the trip unless you're looking for an excuse to buy a new rig.  We have a similar setup on our NM 43 with 3 in-line spreaders.  We just can't go masthead as the section is too small.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Masthead kites with no backstay or anything to support the masthead? Sounds crazy. Your backstay with flicker idea only adds crew work. It won't work anyway. Use fractional kites for training. Have a spare rig in the yard. Helmets for everyone. Get better crew and training. Only use the masthead kites in calm conditions. 

A proper vang, strong boom, properly used in coordination with mainsheet and traveller, might provide enough support to prevent rig destruction on small boats.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Having raced with an oversized ORR main I have some experience.  If you do not drop the traveler and pin the main sheet to pop the battens on tacks and jibes before it goes through you are screwed.  If it inverts you will have to lower the main halyard same in light air not inverted or it will not go through.  In breeze it should go though so long as you  do what I sad so the batten pop first.  In mid to high teens if you do not do main correctly and they invert on the back stay you are screwed.  The whip will help but your main is not like a fat head so I think it may work again solng as you disciplined about battens popping first.  Just my $.02

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Borracho said:

Masthead kites with no backstay or anything to support the masthead? Sounds crazy. Your backstay with flicker idea only adds crew work. It won't work anyway. Use fractional kites for training. Have a spare rig in the yard. Helmets for everyone. Get better crew and training. Only use the masthead kites in calm conditions. 

A proper vang, strong boom, properly used in coordination with mainsheet and traveller, might provide enough support to prevent rig destruction on small boats.

 

He has masthead runners he is worried about what happens of the crew doesn't get them on in time.  He is looking for a belt and suspoenders set up with mast head runner and a perm backstay just in case.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, fan said:

He has masthead runners he is worried about what happens of the crew doesn't get them on in time.  He is looking for a belt and suspoenders set up with mast head runner and a perm backstay just in case.

Ahh, okay. (Though I don't read it that way.) So even more pointless: Adding complexity. My little roachy fractional racer had what amounted to a running masthead backstay due to the fact that fully easing the backstay allowed the mast to fully invert with masthead kites. Pretty scary to see, so we didn't look at it.

Crew training, expert coaching from the helm, and access to a spare mast.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My $0.02, I'd put up two masthead backstays, and attach them to the runner/checkstay tackle. 

The runner man just has to get this on smartly, but the A-sail will be somewhat unloaded in a gybe anyway so this shouldn't be an issue while the main comes across. 

As above, proper main trimming to pop the battens in the gybe is vital.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, P_Wop said:

My $0.02, I'd put up two masthead backstays, and attach them to the runner/checkstay tackle. 

The runner man just has to get this on smartly, but the A-sail will be somewhat unloaded in a gybe anyway so this shouldn't be an issue while the main comes across. 

As above, proper main trimming to pop the battens in the gybe is vital.

That’s exactly how it’s already set up. Current owner has run it this way for years. Yes, he lost a mast early on, but he’s refined the setup since and been trouble free since. 
 

I wasn’t looking to improve on his setup. I was just curious about training wheels while I learn the boat. I’ll probably add the backstay and use one of the old non-roachy mains while we settle in with the boat. I wouldn’t actively trim the fixed backstay, just keep it snug enough to support the masthead while we practice. 

BE0CC511-F58F-46F8-BA08-58D720D83B1D.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Borracho said:

Ahh, okay. (Though I don't read it that way.) So even more pointless: Adding complexity. My little roachy fractional racer had what amounted to a running masthead backstay due to the fact that fully easing the backstay allowed the mast to fully invert with masthead kites. Pretty scary to see, so we didn't look at it.

Crew training, expert coaching from the helm, and access to a spare mast.

Sorry if I phrased it poorly, but Fan was spot on. The backstay wouldn’t add complexity because it wouldn’t be very actively trimmed. It would only come in to play as an “oh shit” device. It was purely a curiosity on my part because I’ve sailed on most rig combinations, just not this one. 
 

I currently plan to be the guy working the runners/main anyway, but I’m just spitballing ideas for at least a hope of a safety net. I plan to follow in the footsteps of the other batshit crazy sporty in our fleet and build about half the crew out of youth sailing instructors and their more advanced students. The kids love the crazy boats and are great sailors, but often lack the experience in big boat quirks. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if it were me I'd address the issue by assigning a good crew member to be primarily responsible for runners, and not give that crew member any other responsibilities until you were sure that the runners were getting set reliably.

Adding a "sort of permanent" backstay seems like it will just cause more problems and not provide very good insurance.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, TJSoCal said:

I think if it were me I'd address the issue by assigning a good crew member to be primarily responsible for runners, and not give that crew member any other responsibilities until you were sure that the runners were getting set reliably.

Adding a "sort of permanent" backstay seems like it will just cause more problems and not provide very good insurance.

That’s the current plan. I was basically just thinking out loud. It would have been temporary anyway. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the same rig with a permanent backstay with a big whip at the top.  The original class main has a huge roach.  Mostly I've sailed solo with a smaller main, but the few times I've had the big main up it hasn't been too onerous clearing the backstay.  Mine's light dyneema on maybe a  8:1 tackle.

I'd be pretty nervous gybing in heavy air without one, or inverting the mast.    Removing it never occurred to me.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Rod Spearin said:

I don't think you can get enough of a whip to clear a larger roached main.  You would really need two backstays and then you introduce the complication of having someone manage the runners and someone else manage the backstays -- too much crew in the back!.

Robichaud sells backstay flickers up to 6 ft in length: https://www.rbsbattens.com/battens/rbs-powdercoated-epoxy-backstay-flicker/

If that isn't long enough, then twin topmast runners would be the likeliest solution.  I was going to mention either jumpers or upper diamonds to support the topmast laterally as well, but it looks like the boat already has a form of jumpers.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Jeff F said:

I have the same rig with a permanent backstay with a big whip at the top.  The original class main has a huge roach.  Mostly I've sailed solo with a smaller main, but the few times I've had the big main up it hasn't been too onerous clearing the backstay.  Mine's light dyneema on maybe a  8:1 tackle.

I'd be pretty nervous gybing in heavy air without one, or inverting the mast.    Removing it never occurred to me.

Good to know!  Much appreciated. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, fan said:

Having raced with an oversized ORR main I have some experience.  If you do not drop the traveler and pin the main sheet to pop the battens on tacks and jibes before it goes through you are screwed.  If it inverts you will have to lower the main halyard same in light air not inverted or it will not go through.  In breeze it should go though so long as you  do what I sad so the batten pop first.  In mid to high teens if you do not do main correctly and they invert on the back stay you are screwed.  The whip will help but your main is not like a fat head so I think it may work again solng as you disciplined about battens popping first.  Just my $.02

Fan, we have a small flat top main on a J/88 with a single backstay. If the backstay is not eased prior to a tack the top batten will snag the backstay (even with a flicker) and hang up. Are you suggesting that dropping the traveler prior to the tack will help the main get through? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Rod Spearin said:

I don't think you can get enough of a whip to clear a larger roached main.  

After talking to Hall I added a 9" titanium extension (and whip) to the existing MH crane in order to help clear both the increased roach and top batten on my "fathead' main: the larger 14" headboard allows the roach to be carried higher up, creates a better, hopefully more efficient, airfoil shape in the main and eliminates that sort-of useless sail area at the top on a typical pinhead main.

I think (maybe possibly perhaps depending) that if you drew a straight line from your existing backstay / runner attachment points on the transom to a point that would clear your roachy main, you might find it doable to add a crane extension to that point and not have to worry about clearing that top batten. YMMV!!!

20180408_104905.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, danstanford said:

Fan, we have a small flat top main on a J/88 with a single backstay. If the backstay is not eased prior to a tack the top batten will snag the backstay (even with a flicker) and hang up. Are you suggesting that dropping the traveler prior to the tack will help the main get through? 

Yes by dropping thew traveler prior to the tack or jibe you can ensure the batten pops before it tries to pass trough after.  So drop traveler and cleat so it stays high side out of tack wait until battens pop then drop traveler and ease main if needed to get it through.  On a jibe same but just blow sheet so it goes all the way out quickly traveler drop is a 1/2 measure that works on most tacks but not enough fats enough on a jibe. There is no worse situation then an inverted batten pinned on the backstay the if its on a windy jbe you crash (it will still be stuck after crash so this is very bad)and on a tcac you will have to tack back or lower halyard to get it free.  Just my $.02 hope it helps.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, IMR said:

Build a pin head main and set up a fixed backstay. 

The best idea until the crew reaches pro-level skill. The time saved not screwing around in each tack will make up for the tiny gain from sail area. Having whoever manages the whole backstay issue hiking out on the rail instead of flailing around aft with six lines will be a big help too.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, IMR said:

Build a pin head main and set up a fixed backstay. 

That’s just not going to happen. It does have an old, much less roachy main that we’ll use to practice with though. And yes, I’ll be adding a fixed backstay, at least for awhile. 
 

It’s a crappy low res picture, but this is the proper main on the boat. 

371018F5-3619-4C07-B274-737A2DC77B9C.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/1/2021 at 5:21 AM, Monkey said:

So here's a perfectly stupid question.  I'm looking at adding a semi-fixed backstay to serve as a set of training wheels for the first year while the crew and I get used to a new boat.  The rig is double inline spreaders with a set of jumpers, fractional rig, masthead A-sails, and a very roachy main (slightly more than in the drawing).  It currently has no fixed backstay, just the running backs and checks.  If I were to add a regular backstay with a whip (drawn in red) that was just loose enough to let the main swing through, would it help at all during a jibe if someone screwed up and was late getting the runners/checks on, or would the rig just invert and fall over anyway?  

Ignore any windage or weight aloft issues, this would just be a safety net while we get everyone used to the boat.

 

RR6.PNG

I had a 40'er with that exact rig set up (exclusive of permanent topmast stay you show that won't clear the roach.)  It worked fine with both a-sails in lighter air and syms in heavy air.  But you could need an extra crew,   In light air, you are reaching so most of the shroud loads are lateral and the topmast on the flicker is not critical.  In heavier air the main blows through.  

The real advantage of that setup is largely independent rig bend control for the main and headstay tension for the jib sag.

The next step would be a fat head main and two topmast shrouds, TP-52 style.  For that you need fast hands on the topmasts for jibes.   

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

I had a 40'er with that exact rig set up (exclusive of permanent topmast stay you show that won't clear the roach.)  It worked fine with both a-sails in lighter air and syms in heavy air.  But you could need an extra crew,   In light air, you are reaching so most of the shroud loads are lateral and the topmast on the flicker is not critical.  In heavier air the main blows through.  

The real advantage of that setup is largely independent rig bend control for the main and headstay tension for the jib sag.

The next step would be a fat head main and two topmast shrouds, TP-52 style.  For that you need fast hands on the topmasts for jibes.   

Thanks for the info. Despite the complexity, the ability to shift gears with this mast is a big plus to me. I don’t think I’ll ever go with topmast shrouds, but the jumpers have proven to be enough to keep the rig up in heavy air with every masthead kite option on the boat so far. A full flat top main is in discussion, but that’s after we get used to the boat. Obviously the fixed backstay will have to be gone at that point. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, port tack said:

Sorry if I missed this but what kind of boat is it?  

It’s mostly a Mount Gay 30. The hull, deck, and rig were built to the rule. Then the current owner bought the parts and built it to his own idea, so it hit the water with a big prod and a little under 3700 pounds. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Thanks for the info. Despite the complexity, the ability to shift gears with this mast is a big plus to me. I don’t think I’ll ever go with topmast shrouds, but the jumpers have proven to be enough to keep the rig up in heavy air with every masthead kite option on the boat so far. A full flat top main is in discussion, but that’s after we get used to the boat. Obviously the fixed backstay will have to be gone at that point. 

Just to add a comment, A full flat-top (or fat head) main really requires split topmast stays to get the benefit of sail shape control the set up offers. A flicker to clear a fat head main would have to be so long and stiff that easing and re-setting it would take more time and have the same risks as the split stays on cascades.  

If the boat is balanced well already, you will be twisting off the fat head most of the time to manage helm, so what you're really getting is vortex control and downwind sail area.  No small thing.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Just to add a comment, A full flat-top (or fat head) main really requires split topmast stays to get the benefit of sail shape control the set up offers. A flicker to clear a fat head main would have to be so long and stiff that easing and re-setting it would take more time and have the same risks as the split stays on cascades.  

If the boat is balanced well already, you will be twisting off the fat head most of the time to manage helm, so what you're really getting is vortex control and downwind sail area.  No small thing.

It is currently set up with split topmast backstays, and no permanent backstay. That was the reason for the whole thread!  The backstay would just be a safety net for a little while why I get everyone used to it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Monkey said:

It is currently set up with split topmast backstays, and no permanent backstay. That was the reason for the whole thread!  The backstay would just be a safety net for a little while why I get everyone used to it. 

The first rule of the internet is "Never read the original post before posting."  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

You could dispense with the extra top stay and go with the top runners- BUT- make sure you have enough reefs in the main (whether old or new) to:

1- Clear (under) the top runners so you can leave them on and not worry about the roach snagging.  (Clean up your roach so battens etc are not snagging on the runners when they go under the runner. Top runners love to flip in the wrong side of the roach.   Check your blocks etc to make sure that when you release them they release and run forward easily.  Gross/fines can help with this if you are clever.  Martel makes a killer HUGE block that can do both runners.) 

2- clear the lower runners when things get really sporty

concentrate on your foresails.  Cheaper.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Amati said:

You could dispense with the extra top stay and go with the top runners- BUT- make sure you have enough reefs in the main (whether old or new) to:

1- Clear (under) the top runners so you can leave them on and not worry about the roach snagging.  (Clean up your roach so battens etc are not snagging on the runners when they go under the runner. Top runners love to flip in the wrong side of the roach.   Check your blocks etc to make sure that when you release them they release and run forward easily.  Gross/fines can help with this if you are clever.  Martel makes a killer HUGE block that can do both runners.) 

2- clear the lower runners when things get really sporty

concentrate on your foresails.  Cheaper.

 

Dammit, you usually have great advice.  Does anyone read the original post anymore?

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Dammit, you usually have great advice.  Does anyone read the original post anymore?

Sorry, start with reefs, work up- you have to work the runners anyway, so why mess with another adjustable backstay?  Go from the known to the relative unknown, even if it means going 4 knots at first.  A runner (jumper) is a runner.  They are the safety net.  The main thing is keeping them from the wrong side of the sail, or snagging the sail.  A free running system that is fast, doesn’t tangle and is reliable is all that matters.  Find Star sailors if you can.  How many are you going to run together?  I go back and forth on that.  If you start from the bottom (reefing), you can figure how each one works.  

 

On 7/1/2021 at 10:24 AM, Monkey said:

That’s exactly how it’s already set up. Current owner has run it this way for years. Yes, he lost a mast early on, but he’s refined the setup since and been trouble free since. 
 

I wasn’t looking to improve on his setup. I was just curious about training wheels while I learn the boat. I’ll probably add the backstay and use one of the old non-roachy mains while we settle in with the boat. I wouldn’t actively trim the fixed backstay, just keep it snug enough to support the masthead while we practice. 

BE0CC511-F58F-46F8-BA08-58D720D83B1D.jpeg

And if it snags…..

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/1/2021 at 9:39 AM, fan said:

He has masthead runners he is worried about what happens of the crew doesn't get them on in time.  He is looking for a belt and suspoenders set up with mast head runner and a perm backstay just in case.

But the perm is going to be floppy…..?  Held up (out) with a stiff batten?  How many diameters will the mast bend before the perm is taut?  Unless its adjustable, and then it’s effectively another top runner….. I must be missing something….. how much wave action does it take to get a backstay held out by a batten like that oscillating and banging into the mainsail?  One nice thing about a tiller, he can probably handle one of the tails by himself.  It’ll get busy though….

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/1/2021 at 9:37 AM, fan said:

Having raced with an oversized ORR main I have some experience.  If you do not drop the traveler and pin the main sheet to pop the battens on tacks and jibes before it goes through you are screwed.  If it inverts you will have to lower the main halyard same in light air not inverted or it will not go through.  In breeze it should go though so long as you  do what I sad so the batten pop first.  In mid to high teens if you do not do main correctly and they invert on the back stay you are screwed.  The whip will help but your main is not like a fat head so I think it may work again solng as you disciplined about battens popping first.  Just my $.02

Do you have different battens for different wind strengths?  It’s also possible to use top runners to flick the top batten if it won’t pop by itself.  Sitting down hard on the deck can do it too- I learned that from a Merlin Rocket sailor.  On a big boat it can take synchronized crew…:lol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that reefs with top mast runners works because the top mast runners are also part on the normal runners and checks. So the runners and checks will still foul the reefed main.

The solution might be too man up and check the insurance.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/1/2021 at 8:24 AM, SailRacer said:

If the boat has no perm backstay (due to swept back spreaders), what good would one do?

By the time it tightens downwind, the rig will be gone anyway.  Just say'an.

 

Sail Safe!

This.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, European Bloke said:

I don't think that reefs with top mast runners works because the top mast runners are also part on the normal runners and checks. So the runners and checks will still foul the reefed main.

The solution might be too man up and check the insurance.

I’d argue there will be fewer lines to foul the main.  You mean part of the normal runners and checks? (I’m figuring a typo?). If I understand that, it’s why I’ve gone back and forth on how much to connect everything. On Amati, the lower runners get out of the way more quickly- I always thought it’s because they’re shorter, and the blocks swing them down better, so they stay straighter more of the time.  I gravitated for a while to heavier (older style) Harken blocks set high enough so they didn't bonk heads so I didn't need to use bungee cords or other lines to bring the runners/checks forward and hold them down.  Crude but effective.  The top runners have a lot of windage and they blow around an amazing amount with the aero of the main, which causes a lot of the mischief.  I’ve noticed that the problem is not as bad on the present skinnier pinhead main than the big roach main.  I handle the main and the runners myself while on the tiller, and the only time things get fucked up is when the lines get tangled with each other or the shrouds or the sail or the boom or body parts etc etc. (I’ve had a top runner wrapped around my neck!) If you have a cascade so the initial set (pull?)  is 1:1, and things work smoothly, it’s easy and quick to do.  I’ve never had a problem because of my timing pulling the lines (even if I’m getting thrown around in a violent sea) - that’s straightforward cockpit ballet which you can choreograph and practice.  It’s always the lines getting entangled :rolleyes: on something.  My $.02.  
 

This is great argument for unstayed masts.  In steady lightish winds, runners etc are fun and effective, but when things get sporty…..

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Monkey said:

It is currently set up with split topmast backstays, and no permanent backstay. That was the reason for the whole thread!  The backstay would just be a safety net for a little while why I get everyone used to it. 

If the backstay is on and tight enough to keep the mast tip from moving all the time, is the main not going to foul it?  Will the top runners not foul it?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Amati said:

If the backstay is on and tight enough to keep the mast tip from moving all the time, is the main not going to foul it?  Will the top runners not foul it?

In heavy air, the main “should” be able to punch through with the backstay snug. In light air, the flicker would hold it clear. It’s all just one big thought experiment right now. I wouldn’t do anything til spring anyway. I’ve spent enough time with runners that I’m perfectly comfortable (well, mostly) with the current setup. I won’t be driving, I’ll be the runner guy. 
 

Hopefully that old saying about things coming in threes is nonsense. I’ve only been onboard for two dismastings so far…

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

In heavy air your huge roach will slam the backstay hard enough to destroy your rig. That is why you have running backstays. The designers know this stuff. 
 

That and all the time fussing with the six controls will lose the race anyway.

Just use the runners. Don’t screw up. Same attention to detail as not hitting the rocks or other boats. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Monkey said:

That’s just not going to happen. It does have an old, much less roachy main that we’ll use to practice with though. And yes, I’ll be adding a fixed backstay, at least for awhile. 
 

It’s a crappy low res picture, but this is the proper main on the boat. 

371018F5-3619-4C07-B274-737A2DC77B9C.jpeg

A vote for the idea of just reefing the main...which you will only need to do if it's blowing hard enough that screw ups pose a risk to the mast. If it's blowing hard you don't want to be out there trying to teach the basics anyway. Besides, they will learn to put in and shake out reefs.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Borracho said:

In heavy air your huge roach will slam the backstay hard enough to destroy your rig. That is why you have running backstays. The designers know this stuff. 
 

That and all the time fussing with the six controls will lose the race anyway.

Just use the runners. Don’t screw up. Same attention to detail as not hitting the rocks or other boats. 

I’m curious what these six controls you keep mentioning are. The checks can be preset and come on with the runners, so don’t get touched in tacks/jibes. Same would go for the backstay if I add it. It would not be for sail trim. The running backs handle that. I was simply wondering if spending about 500 bucks on a safety net might help. It probably won’t, but it doesn’t cost anything to pick people’s brains around here. Ironically, the first time I was onboard for a rig tipping over, was a SC70 that botched the runners and inverted the rig. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Mark K said:

A vote for the idea of just reefing the main...which you will only need to do if it's blowing hard enough that screw ups pose a risk to the mast. If it's blowing hard you don't want to be out there trying to teach the basics anyway. Besides, they will learn to put in and shake out reefs.  

That’s certainly not bad advice. The boat gets reefed a lot already, but rarely for windward leewards. It’s when the goofy sails come out on distance races that they regularly reef, it just balances better. Trying to sort out sail combinations is a whole new can of worms, but I’ll figure that out. The silly thing has every possible specialty sail imaginable. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s kind of thread drift, but Steve Rander’s Rage had a mast that was essentially free standing, but IIRR, the shrouds were there for sail control.  It’s nice to have the control runners etc offers, but I’m wondering if part of sail design is moving past it?  (I still think Finn masts are cool though)

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I’m curious what these six controls you keep mentioning are. The checks can be preset and come on with the runners, so don’t get touched in tacks/jibes. Same would go for the backstay if I add it. It would not be for sail trim. The running backs handle that. I was simply wondering if spending about 500 bucks on a safety net might help. It probably won’t, but it doesn’t cost anything to pick people’s brains around here. Ironically, the first time I was onboard for a rig tipping over, was a SC70 that botched the runners and inverted the rig. 

I will hazard a guess he is referring to 3 sets of aft stays, checks/runners/topmasts.

I think I am missing something here though.  In the photo you provided, it looks like the main is not reefed, but the head is about 2-3 ft below the mast top.  And while the main is roachy, it is much closer to being a pinhead than a flat top.  My boat came with the 3 sets of aft stays I listed above and I am looking to ditch the topmasts in favour of a single backstay.  The main on my boat has much more roach up top and is closer to being a flat top.  Anyways, I believe a 6 ft flicker will allow enough clearance on my boat, and your boat looks to have an additional 2-3 ft of vertical clearance, so I don't see why a 6 ft flicker wouldn't work in your case.

A flicker won't work on a full hoist flat top, but on yours, I'm thinking maybe it will.

And as I mentioned above, Robichaud sells flickers up to 6 ft.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I’m curious what these six controls you keep mentioning are. 

Traveler (x2) lowered excessively to help the roach thru. Mainsheet played to help the roach. Both those people could have their attention and mass on fast things rather than staring at the sky. runner (x2), another backstay. That is six. Plus you are probably going to run the upper battens a bit loose. That is slow, too.

If slower and safer is okay then perform the tacks and gybes in a paced and deliberate manner. Perhaps with constant coaching. Always control the main and boom...crank it to the center upwind and down. Don't invite clever crash tack situations.

Your SC70 example may not be pertinent. Standing backstay. Probably forgot to release a runner, no? An issue you still have that your backstay idea does not address.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Monkey said:

That’s certainly not bad advice. The boat gets reefed a lot already, but rarely for windward leewards. It’s when the goofy sails come out on distance races that they regularly reef, it just balances better. Trying to sort out sail combinations is a whole new can of worms, but I’ll figure that out. The silly thing has every possible specialty sail imaginable. 

  Sounds like the first set of lessons are sets, takedowns, mark roundings anyway. You can get the foredeck and middle up to speed with both the runners tight on a reefed main safely, and then progress to doing it full rig. Crawl, walk, run. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

A "standing" backstay with a six foot flicker hardly seems like something that would prevent losing the rig when mayhem rules.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Borracho said:

A "standing" backstay with a six foot flicker hardly seems like something that would prevent losing the rig when mayhem rules.

The rig is usually tuned with an aft rake. The “standing” backstay would only be there to stop it at vertical. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

I will hazard a guess he is referring to 3 sets of aft stays, checks/runners/topmasts.

I think I am missing something here though.  In the photo you provided, it looks like the main is not reefed, but the head is about 2-3 ft below the mast top.  And while the main is roachy, it is much closer to being a pinhead than a flat top.  My boat came with the 3 sets of aft stays I listed above and I am looking to ditch the topmasts in favour of a single backstay.  The main on my boat has much more roach up top and is closer to being a flat top.  Anyways, I believe a 6 ft flicker will allow enough clearance on my boat, and your boat looks to have an additional 2-3 ft of vertical clearance, so I don't see why a 6 ft flicker wouldn't work in your case.

Of course it may not work, but I'm thinking it may well.  And as I mentioned above, Robichaud sells flickers up to 6 ft.

I’m going through this in a parallel way with Amati, but for different reasons-  stiff mast concept, top runners, 3/4 jib hound runners, 33 degree swept spreaders, cathedral shrouds.  
 

When I’ve messed with the top runners (for reasons elucidated above:)), no matter what I have done,

1- getting rid of them,

- getting rid of the top cathedrals or

- keeping the top cathedrals, 

(don’t worry, no foresails set above the jib hound outs with those setups) 

2- turning them into one standing backstay (effectivelyto the middle of the transom.

I ALWAYS lose some pointing ability.  I’m not using the top running backs to tip the masthead to windward, just as support for the cathedrals. Main sail shape is along the lines of a Hobie 16, maybe a bit fatter on top)

next sail, I’m going squarehead, with

-first reef to get the main completely under the top runners (I mean completely), but at the same point as the upper (4/5’s?) flying whatever halyard out.

- second reef at the 3/4 jib hounds.  But as I pointed out above, I’ve never had a problem with the lower runners (I should add, when not connected in any way to the top runners), which why I have separated the controls for the lower runners and the top runners.

I think this will be a way to shift gears from complex to less complex as the wind/ sea state picks up.  (I hope)

so Monkey, since you are the sole God of the Backstays, I’d mess with them & try and figure what line wants to do what when it’s not holding anything up, and when it’s in transition.  It may mean you have to go around and tidy every slack runner line after a tack or jibe.  It may mean some are independent of the others, depending on reefing.  It’s not more complicated than a dinghy with lots of controls.  I’d show a pic of Chris Masa’s IC controls…… and he’s out on a hiking plank…..:lol:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

split backstays as the tp 52s...

Link to post
Share on other sites

but it doesn’t cost anything to pick people’s brains around here.

Probably still not great value!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...