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Quick Stop MOB Maneuver under spinnaker?


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Didn't want to tack this onto the Greg Mueller thread but it has me thinking. It seems like especially with a fast boat under spinnaker or A-sail in breeze, trying to do the classic quick stop could be very dangerous even for a trained and practiced crew. There's a lot of potential for mistakes that could break the boat and/or crew, put more people in the water and make the situation worse.

What are some thoughts about the best way to go into a MOB recovery in that situation? Seems like simpler would be better especially in the initial phases of getting speed off the boat.

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I'd be tempted to just immediately blow the sheet, luff hard dead into the wind, motor on, wait for the sail to be over the boat, then blow the halyard, leaving the tack line attached to prevent losing the sail completely. 

I think in that particular case being tangled in the sheet prevented blowing the sheet, in which case blow the tack & halyard, retrieve sail after picking up the MOB.

I know there are lots of potential issues with sails & lines in the water, but that would probably be my reaction.

(sounds easy, bet it's not!)

Really interested to hear other ideas!!!!! (and why's)

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17 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Didn't want to tack this onto the Greg Mueller thread but it has me thinking. It seems like especially with a fast boat under spinnaker or A-sail in breeze, trying to do the classic quick stop could be very dangerous even for a trained and practiced crew. There's a lot of potential for mistakes that could break the boat and/or crew, put more people in the water and make the situation worse.

What are some thoughts about the best way to go into a MOB recovery in that situation? Seems like simpler would be better especially in the initial phases of getting speed off the boat.

One of the boats I race on avidly insists on the quick stop. I agree, and intend the same thing on my boat. The key is no stopper knots on the spin gear. Blow everything and you get a big flag. If it’s really bad, cut the halyard and ditch it all. I’d rather spend about 8 grand to replace that shit than have to explain why I didn’t do everything I could to save a friend. 
 

This is referring to offshore and not necessarily buoy racing. 

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Crash stop for sure - but be extremely careful before starting the engine because there are almost certainly going to be lines in the water.

A prop wrap in that circumstance could literally be deadly.

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1 minute ago, apophenia said:

It is probably wise for the spotter(s) to communicate with the spin crew to ensure the sail isn't dropped on top of the POB.

Makes it easier to find him!  :D

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I've seen some guidance that says "ease the afterguy to the headstay and cleat it." This seems to me like an opportunity to either smack the pole into the headstay & break something or inadvertently let both the sheet and guy go and have nothing to pull the sail down with.

Assuming that the spin sheet is let go, is there any problem with just leaving the afterguy & pole where they are until the kite is down and things have calmed down a bit?

So the only immediate actions would be to let the spin sheet go entirely and turn the boat up (plus spotter, GPS mark, flotation, etc.).

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31 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

I've seen some guidance that says "ease the afterguy to the headstay and cleat it." This seems to me like an opportunity to either smack the pole into the headstay & break something or inadvertently let both the sheet and guy go and have nothing to pull the sail down with.

Assuming that the spin sheet is let go, is there any problem with just leaving the afterguy & pole where they are until the kite is down and things have calmed down a bit?

So the only immediate actions would be to let the spin sheet go entirely and turn the boat up (plus spotter, GPS mark, flotation, etc.).

The problem there, as mentioned earlier is that it puts a lot of string within easy reach of your propeller. 

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4 minutes ago, Monkey said:

The problem there, as mentioned earlier is that it puts a lot of string within easy reach of your propeller. 

Well, yes. But I think starting the motor isn't one of the immediate actions, it's a little further down the checklist and follows a check that all lines are onboard (as it should even for a routine engine start).

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If stopping is key to close then by all means stop!

Engine on is secondary

In case of drag this is even moreso.

Big problem is we dont practice thise

Everyone is afraid of dtroying $15k spin in practice.

How to practice?

 

 

 

 

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If your on a 4knt shitbox things happen fairly slow should you been on a performance ride things have to happen quick. Either WAY

1st. STOP the BOAT. best way to make that happen.

Turn into the WIND.

Once the chute blows back into the triangle blow the halyard. Sail should land on the foredeck

gather up sheets and guys, as someone gets engine started. 

I think the Question should have been WTF to do When BOB goes over while spinnaker is up?

there is a whole lotta shit that needs to happen to have a chance of recovering BOB.. (anyone who's been splashed earns the name of, your 1st name here -->>______ Bob)

Earlier this year I was invited to sail on one of the performance boats in the hood. Crew consisted of seasoned sailors. Those with 25+ years along with the younger hotshots. While dicking around B4 the start, someone looses a hat. I call for a man overboard drill. Youngsters ask why. response was when was the last time you ever did one, reply NEVER!!   

Keep that in mind as you start to get out this summer. 

Hat was recovered safely but not without some issues and took a lot longer than anyone thought. 

Failure to learn something new today is a wasted day.

 

 

 

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One possible way of doing it on an A sail boat would be to quickly soak off some speed and gybe into a round  up on the other tack with the kite plastered to the jib (if it’s up)  …messy as hell and a bit of work for the foredeck to sort .

But while the carnage is being cleared it gives the MOB a chance to start swimming toward boat if feasible .

otherwise I would soak off speed and do a windward drop and round up as it’s happening . 

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17 minutes ago, 44forty said:

One possible way of doing it on an A sail boat would be to quickly soak off some speed and gybe into a round  up on the other tack with the kite plastered to the jib (if it’s up)  …messy as hell and a bit of work for the foredeck to sort .

But while the carnage is being cleared it gives the MOB a chance to start swimming toward boat if feasible .

otherwise I would soak off speed and do a windward drop and round up as it’s happening . 

 

On an A sail boat with a furler, I've always thought that popping the jib out on the wrong side and quickly gybing with an ugly mexican douse in the middle onto the deck followed by a round up could be probably the quickest way to stop with some control. If you drop the sail on deck, it would only take one person in the pit to do everything. Never tried it in practice or in anger.

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2 hours ago, fucket said:

 

 

On an A sail boat with a furler, I've always thought that popping the jib out on the wrong side and quickly gybing with an ugly mexican douse in the middle onto the deck followed by a round up could be probably the quickest way to stop with some control. If you drop the sail on deck, it would only take one person in the pit to do everything. Never tried it in practice or in anger.

I think I'd be worried about the boom in that maneuver, with the crew excited, focused on other things and either not expecting the gybe or not remembering they need to duck because they're completely focused on the MOB situation.

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A downwind quickstop is all fun and games in 10kts in flat water, but in 20 or 25, what is more likely is that you round up, get knocked down, more people fall in, and now your spinnaker is hopelessly wrapped on the forestay and your prop is fouled with lines. You’re not working back to the MOB any time soon.

In a blow, I’d rather bear off and do a fast controlled drop, then get back. You are not helping the victim if you make things worse.

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Downwind in leadmines, it was always just "Spinnaker in the boat". In any kind of racing the crew work should be at that level. Afterguard takes care of spotter and getting iron genny ready. My boats were always beer can level racing (occasionally a little higher) but crew could put a spinnaker in the boat from cold call to turn in 60-90 seconds. Somebody being wrapped in a sheet or guy is no different than an over ride or jam, KNIFE.

We practiced quite a bit though and probably had, IMHO, some of the best talent any skipper could ask for. 

 

WL

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At full gate in 20 plus knots, you're not going to just stick it up and have any good results. Blow the sheets. Head up to slow the boat. Keep to practiced take downs in breeze in a controlled fashion to drop the spinnaker in a letter box. Tack around and get back to the MOB GPS position ASAP. There really aren't many safer options. 

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Al of the advice I've read seems to be for 35'er doing 8-10 knot and in moderate seas.  On a faster boat, off shore in 20+ knots of breeze, doing 17-20 knots, with an A-sail, narrow bulb keel and a limited number of people on deck, the choice between a quick stop with just a few crew and a controlled take-down after waiting for full crew is impossible to make from an armchair.  

I do know that on larger, light, flat-bottomed, narrow keel, off-shore boat with say a 2,000SF+ a-sail and a skinny rig and split backstays that a quick stop will break shit, blind the driver and the pointer.  While a controlled take-down waiting for crew to get on deck will probably end up with you 2 miles downwind from the POB

So...All I know, after participating in 7 POB recoveries, is that I want a few things in a boat I'm on:  PLBs on all crew, crotch straps on all jackets, a pointer that never looks away, a motor that always starts, a crew with fast hands, a boat hook and an open transom.  An open transom is probably the best safety feature of any race boat I've been on.  

I know that you cannot control the boat in breeze with the main up, without the motor on and lines clear.  Sailing up to a POB means you are doing at least 3-4 knots and then trying to stop dead while staying in arms reach of the person.  

I also know that I will never rely on a Life-sling to perform as advertised.   

...  So at the end of the day, with 4 to 5 people on deck, I've settled on doing a slow, controlled round up, 1 driver, 1 pointer, 1 to check for lines and 1 to go down below to punch the POB button, start the engine and wake up the crew.   Then you get down to business.  

 

Somebody above said "no stopper knots in the spin gear".  If anybody still puts stopper knots in sheets, I'd drop them off on the nearest dock.

 

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this link is very close to what we drill the mids on at the navel academy... it just fucking works... 

those of you talking about lines in the water are correct.. but if you've got enough crew to be flying a kite, part of you MOB drill should be doing a line check. 

The key is to get the engine on IN CASE YOU NEED IT.. you don't just slam the fucker into gear immediately. The boat is going to have a big fucking lead chunk of inertia that will probably give you enough energy to burn to get back to the victim. 

 

https://www.uksailmakers.com/quick-stop-with-spinnaker

 

I'm looking for the link to the USNA video as well... 

they key to this is practice... and give everyone on the crew a shot at it until they do it right. 

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4 hours ago, fastyacht said:

If stopping is key to close then by all means stop!

Engine on is secondary

In case of drag this is even moreso.

Big problem is we dont practice thise

Everyone is afraid of dtroying $15k spin in practice.

How to practice?

 

 

 

 

again I refer to our sessions with the Mids.. almost every practice (every afternoon while school is in session) will contain at least one MOB drill. the overnighters give everyone on the crew a chance. and every few days we'll spend an evening doing nothing but MOB drills. we use the same sails that would be used racing. yeah, every now and then one gets hosed up, but it doesn't happen nearly as often as you think it might. I think in the 6 or 7 seasons i've been involved with that program I've seen maybe 2 or 3 kites roached doing an MOB drill. This is on everything from J105s to navy 44s to Farr 40s to TP52s to RP 68s... 

For as many people as the USNA academy introduces to sailing and puts offshore doing some pretty cool races in any and all conditions, they have an excellent safety record that is due to the repetition and drills they do. 

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The quick stop would scare me on some of the fragile boats. The canter would be one I would not want to just crash tack gybe. The multi hull is also one that boat handling need to be well thought out.  
 

for 99% of the club racers the quick stop makes a lot of sense. 

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41 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Al of the advice I've read seems to be for 35'er doing 8-10 knot and in moderate seas.  On a faster boat, off shore in 20+ knots of breeze, doing 17-20 knots, with an A-sail, narrow bulb keel and a limited number of people on deck, the choice between a quick stop with just a few crew and a controlled take-down after waiting for full crew is impossible to make from an armchair.  

I do know that on larger, light, flat-bottomed, narrow keel, off-shore boat with say a 2,000SF+ a-sail and a skinny rig and split backstays that a quick stop will break shit, blind the driver and the pointer.  While a controlled take-down waiting for crew to get on deck will probably end up with you 2 miles downwind from the POB

So...All I know, after participating in 7 POB recoveries, is that I want a few things in a boat I'm on:  PLBs on all crew, crotch straps on all jackets, a pointer that never looks away, a motor that always starts, a crew with fast hands, a boat hook and an open transom.  An open transom is probably the best safety feature of any race boat I've been on.  

I know that you cannot control the boat in breeze with the main up, without the motor on and lines clear.  Sailing up to a POB means you are doing at least 3-4 knots and then trying to stop dead while staying in arms reach of the person.  

I also know that I will never rely on a Life-sling to perform as advertised.   

...  So at the end of the day, with 4 to 5 people on deck, I've settled on doing a slow, controlled round up, 1 driver, 1 pointer, 1 to check for lines and 1 to go down below to punch the POB button, start the engine and wake up the crew.   Then you get down to business.  

 

Somebody above said "no stopper knots in the spin gear".  If anybody still puts stopper knots in sheets, I'd drop them off on the nearest dock.

13 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

again I refer to our sessions with the Mids.. almost every practice (every afternoon while school is in session) will contain at least one MOB drill. the overnighters give everyone on the crew a chance. and every few days we'll spend an evening doing nothing but MOB drills. we use the same sails that would be used racing. yeah, every now and then one gets hosed up, but it doesn't happen nearly as often as you think it might. I think in the 6 or 7 seasons i've been involved with that program I've seen maybe 2 or 3 kites roached doing an MOB drill. This is on everything from J105s to navy 44s to Farr 40s to TP52s to RP 68s... 

For as many people as the USNA academy introduces to sailing and puts offshore doing some pretty cool races in any and all conditions, they have an excellent safety record that is due to the repetition and drills they do. 

Let me understand exactly what you are saying. On a TP52 or more powerful  it's okay to just stuff it regardless of the wind speed and nothing worse than a destroyed sail will happen. That's just not reality.

 

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well, i know what I'm doing this weekend :)

I have a retired kite I can load up and see what works.

I'm in a smaller boat (J70) but I'm thinking the critical part of this, is

Blow the sheet  -> then turn up. What I'm interested in is how well I can de-power prior to the turn up.

 

The way I look at it is that a well practiced crew can drop the kite at a leeward mark going from full downwind to upwind in a pretty short time/space (generally less than 3 boat lengths.), if we eliminate the need to be well trimmed coming out of the turn up that should also help.  The only way to figure this out is to try it, I have a suspicion that a continuous sheet is not ideal :).

 

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C'mon.. 

The key is to stop the boat.... so the best thing is to gybe slowly but immediately and torch the spin halyard.

Boat stops and mooches back toward the mob with just the main. A staysail left aback is ok as well.

We have practised this and got back to mob in less than 2 mins (in medium air)

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2 hours ago, JohnMB said:

well, i know what I'm doing this weekend :)

I have a retired kite I can load up and see what works.

I'm in a smaller boat (J70) but I'm thinking the critical part of this, is

Blow the sheet  -> then turn up. What I'm interested in is how well I can de-power prior to the turn up.

 

The way I look at it is that a well practiced crew can drop the kite at a leeward mark going from full downwind to upwind in a pretty short time/space (generally less than 3 boat lengths.), if we eliminate the need to be well trimmed coming out of the turn up that should also help.  The only way to figure this out is to try it, I have a suspicion that a continuous sheet is not ideal :).

 

Nope. Jib OK, fucking parachute that can keep the boat 90 off plumb and fill with water, yeah maybe not so good :)

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Frankly the fastest rescue I ever saw was when we got our signals crossed and I was to NOT blow the guy on a takedown and I did! So, all strings loose in 20 knots and what was supposed to be leeward drop at the pin from dead down to hard on the wind with a #3 had us hard on the wind with a chute and all its strings floating behind us at the pin. Luckily it was practice but still we did the fastest rescue ever of an object in the water. Lots of cursing occurred as this was a 43 foot lead mine with a huge frac rig and massive masthead spinnaker. Pulling it back on board was a nasty chore. This reminds me, stopping the boat and getting to the mob is one thing, getting the mob on the boat is another. If the mob is unable to contribute energy to boarding then you better have a plan especially if the water is cold but really anytime. 

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17 hours ago, JohnMB said:

well, i know what I'm doing this weekend :)

I have a retired kite I can load up and see what works.

I'm in a smaller boat (J70) but I'm thinking the critical part of this, is

Blow the sheet  -> then turn up. What I'm interested in is how well I can de-power prior to the turn up.

 

The way I look at it is that a well practiced crew can drop the kite at a leeward mark going from full downwind to upwind in a pretty short time/space (generally less than 3 boat lengths.), if we eliminate the need to be well trimmed coming out of the turn up that should also help.  The only way to figure this out is to try it, I have a suspicion that a continuous sheet is not ideal :).

 

The problem here is that a POB occurs at random times with random crew on deck and random wind conditions.  Not at a mark where you've been planning your approach for minutes and have practiced dozens of times.  

 

16 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

C'mon.. 

The key is to stop the boat.... so the best thing is to gybe slowly but immediately and torch the spin halyard.

Boat stops and mooches back toward the mob with just the main. A staysail left aback is ok as well.

We have practised this and got back to mob in less than 2 mins (in medium air)

It seems everybody has a solution that fits their boat.  Good luck with your approach on your boat.  On my boat, performing this maneuver in "medium air" of 15 knots or so would likely cause significant damage, a huge mess to clean up and no hope of recovery. 

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43 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

The problem here is that a POB occurs at random times with random crew on deck and random wind conditions.  Not at a mark where you've been planning your approach for minutes and have practiced dozens of times.  

 

Of course,  what I'm thinking is that I need to practice POB maneuvers more often, I already know that my crew can do drops at the leeward mark, and that seems like a good starting point to base a kite up POB drill off.  Whatever its ends up being it needs to be consistent, possible in almost all conditions and quick.

 

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The emphasis is substantially on not losing visual of the mob.

In practice, in rough water, this means within 100 metres.

Offshore, we keep the spin half are on the drum and self tailer so it can be smoked. If the speed of the gybe turn is about right and the active spin sheet trimmed on, not much bad can happen. And most important, the gybe can commence within about 5 boatlengths. This is on a 40 footer.

Verbally:

1. Mob, spotter on

2. Standby to gybe

3 Pitman in, start the main

4. Gybe complete, halyard stripped as apparent wind goes forward to 90

 

The critical item is the pitman.... time and execution.

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11 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

Offshore, we keep the spin half are on the drum and self tailer so it can be smoked. If the speed of the gybe turn is about right and the active spin sheet trimmed on, not much bad can happen. And most important, the gybe can commence within about 5 boatlengths. This is on a 40 footer.

Verbally:

1. Mob, spotter on

2. Standby to gybe

3 Pitman in, start the main

4. Gybe complete, halyard stripped as apparent wind goes forward to 90

Fully crewed, could work. But what about when you have 3 on watch and one or two of them are now in the water?
 

When we practiced MOB drills this spring, we did it with only two at a time, with rest of crew joining in after 60-120 sec, to simulate a realistic watch and the time it takes to get everyone up.

 

 

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It is usually the bowman that is the mob. Hard for the trimmer to fall off!

But even if only the trimmer and helm immediately available, steps would be

1. Trimmer oversheets  spinnaker,  cleats it.

2. Gets main half in.

3. Then gets spin halyard as boat is gybed.

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18 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

It is usually the bowman that is the mob. Hard for the trimmer to fall off!

But even if only the trimmer and helm immediately available, steps would be

1. Trimmer oversheets  spinnaker,  cleats it.

2. Gets main half in.

3. Then gets spin halyard as boat is gybed.

Gybing like this seems to be a quick way to turn a bad situation much much worse.

 

Anything over 20 knots and you could very quickly lose the rig, kite under the boat or someone else over the side. None of which make getting back to the mob quickly easy.

 

In big breeze just throwing the halyard off while keeping the other 2 corners controlled will drop the kite onto the water which will both slow the boat and allow for an orderly retrieval. 

This worked at night in 35 knots a few years ago. Never lost sight of the mob and kite in the water stopped us drifting or getting blown too far from him. 

 

I will add that the AIS MOB beacons are a game changer and should be carried by anyone heading offshore. They lead you straight back to the person. 

As for trimmers not being likely to fall in...when you broach from 24 knots anyone on deck is fair game. 

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Decaf,

If the rig falls down in this basic manoeuvre, it was not strong enough to begin with....

Who has not gybed with the main fully wacked onto the leeward runner?

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First we need to realize that this MOB was atypical, in that the MOB didn't fall overboard and stay in that spot while the boat sailed away.  The MOB was tangled in a sheet (or multiple sheets/lines) and was being dragged behind the boat at speed.  That changes everything about how to try to deal with the situation.  With the benefit of hindsight, the most important action that crew could have taken to achieve a different outcome was to stop the boat as quickly as possible.  At almost any cost short of putting someone else in mortal danger/extremis.  If you've never been dragged behind a boat at more than a couple knots, you'll know its almost impossible to keep your head out of the water, or get to your knife or anything else.  The force of the water at 5+ knots is truly overwhelming.  In this particular situation, slow controlled anything (gybes, round ups, etc) only further jeopardize the MOB being dragged.  The spin sheet and guy (or tack) need to both be blown, and the boat rounded up into the wind as quickly as possible to relieve the water pressure on the guy being dragged.  Once stopped, you can begin to sort everything else out.  Who cares if you tear the chute or drop the rig, when the alternative is killing the guy in the water.  This was an extreme, edge of the envelope MOB.  It required a radical response.

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Crash

Wrong answer...

To stop the apparent wind has to be well forward.

If the chute is up, and flapping, you have no control about where the bow is, and therefore about what speed you have, with typical A or S sail areas now.

You have to get the head of the chute down near the water with only one corner pinned to entirely de power it.

 

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4 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

Crash

Wrong answer...

To stop the apparent wind has to be well forward.

If the chute is up, and flapping, you have no control about where the bow is, and therefore about what speed you have, with typical A or S sail areas now.

You have to get the head of the chute down near the water with only one corner pinned to entirely de power it.

 

I don't disagree, but from what I understood, part the of challenge in this case was MOB was caught up in the Spin sheet, so the crew couldn't blow it, so that resulted in leaving the  guy clew/tack corner pinned which meant both corners stayed pinned for way too long.  It sounds like the boat had plenty of speed to get itself rounded up into the wind with the chute dumped.  Once rounded up and slowed down, then someone can start to drop halyard and get the chute down/near the water.  I think there would have been too much risk of entanglement to pin the guy end, and dump the halyard from the start.

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11 hours ago, Crash said:

First we need to realize that this MOB was atypical, in that the MOB didn't fall overboard and stay in that spot while the boat sailed away.  The MOB was tangled in a sheet and was being dragged behind the boat at speedThat changes everything about how to try to deal with the situation.  With the benefit of hindsight, the most important action that crew could have taken to achieve a different outcome was to stop the boat as quickly as possible.  At almost any cost short of putting someone else in mortal danger/extremis.  If you've never been dragged behind a boat at more than a couple knots, you'll know its almost impossible to keep your head out of the water, or get to your knife or anything else.  The force of the water at 5+ knots is truly overwhelming.  In this particular situation, slow controlled anything (gybes, round ups, etc) only further jeopardize the MOB being dragged.  The spin sheet and guy (or tack) need to both be blown, and the boat rounded up into the wind as quickly as possible to relieve the water pressure on the guy being dragged.  Once stopped, you can begin to sort everything else out.  Who cares if you tear the chute or drop the rig, when the alternative is killing the guy in the water.  This was an extreme, edge of the envelope MOB.  It required a radical response.

So much this!

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1 hour ago, ropetrick said:

Perhaps a sharp knife to free the crew in the water is the first step to recovery.

Agree with that. The job of a tether is to keep crew out of the water and preferably inside the lifelines. Once a crew is in the water the tether can be considered to have failed its mission and should be cut away. Similar if the crew in the water is tangled in lines.

A person being dragged alongside a boat at any speed has virtually no chance. A person separated from the boat, preferably with a properly equipped PFD, at least has some time and a shot at being recovered.

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2 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Agree with that. The job of a tether is to keep crew out of the water and preferably inside the lifelines. Once a crew is in the water the tether can be considered to have failed its mission and should be cut away. Similar if the crew in the water is tangled in lines.

A person being dragged alongside a boat at any speed has virtually no chance. A person separated from the boat, preferably with a properly equipped PFD, at least has some time and a shot at being recovered.

While I agree that a sharp knife, and cutting away the line or sheets that had entangled him is an important step, just how long do we think it takes to do that?  30 secs?  1 minute?  What if he is entangled in multiple lines sheets.  What if we cut away a guy while still at speed that is still entangled and/or has swallowed significant seawater, is only partially conscious, etc?  In any of those cases, you want the boat to be near by and stopped, which is why I still think that is the #1 priority.  Cutting him free and getting sails doused are a close 2nd and 3rd priority in my mind, after we've stopped dragging him...

But it's not like I've ever faced the situation either, so I'm not pretending to be an expert on the subject!

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Having been a pilot in a former life (just private, not commercial) I was very used to reading case-study accident reports and trying to learn from them.

I thought that our practice of no stopper knots in our kite lines,  so that if we have to smoke the kite we can, was ok. But those also have a tendency to hockle and get stuck, so we have the knife ready for the Pit if needed. I know that other boats are just as adamant to HAVE stopper knots in their sheets/guys as I'm always asking new crew to remove the knots.

I'll try to file this mentally away that if we do have someone dragging, stopping the boat is job 1.

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36 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I'll try to file this mentally away that if we do have someone dragging, stopping the boat is job 1.

I'd agree but extend that if job 1 can't be executed within seconds without crashing the boat proceed immediately to job 1.1, cutting the person loose.

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2 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

I'd agree but extend that if job 1 can't be executed within seconds without crashing the boat proceed immediately to job 1.1, cutting the person loose.

Crash the boat.

Why wouldn't you?

 

 

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Repeat..

Hold the two bottom corners of the chute.

Gybe and blow halyard simultaneously.

Round up, boat will stop.

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12 minutes ago, Frogman56 said:

Repeat..

Hold the two bottom corners of the chute.

Gybe and blow halyard simultaneously.

Round up, boat will stop.

Why gybe? Why not just round up then lose the kite? 

Faster, easier.

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On 7/4/2021 at 10:34 AM, Frogman56 said:

It is usually the bowman that is the mob. Hard for the trimmer to fall off!

But even if only the trimmer and helm immediately available, steps would be

1. Trimmer oversheets  spinnaker,  cleats it.

2. Gets main half in.

3. Then gets spin halyard as boat is gybed.

Yikes:

Ignoring the critical element of the spotter.  You can't rescue what you can't see.

Ignoring punching the MOB button. 

Ignoring getting the engine started.  

Ignoring the runners

Ignoring where the lazy sheets are running overboard. 

Ignoring getting the kite inboard and not under the boat.   

 

Most POBs I've seen are mid-boat people at the mast or trimming standing up and getting flipped over to weather or sliding under the lifelines on a broach.   The only time I've seen a bow go over is when the pit drops the topping lift and smacks the poor guy in the head.  (That would be me.)

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26 minutes ago, Frogman56 said:

Repeat..

Hold the two bottom corners of the chute.

Gybe and blow halyard simultaneously.

Round up, boat will stop.

My kite is 2,400SF assym set on an 8' sprit.  Not sure there is a human being out there who could hold both corners at once.

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6 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Yikes:

Ignoring the critical element of the spotter.  You can't rescue what you can't see.

Ignoring punching the MOB button. 

Ignoring getting the engine started.  

Ignoring the runners

Ignoring where the lazy sheets are running overboard. 

Ignoring getting the kite inboard and not under the boat.   

 

Most POBs I've seen are mid-boat people at the mast or trimming standing up and getting flipped over to weather or sliding under the lifelines on a broach.   The only time I've seen a bow go over is when the pit drops the topping lift and smacks the poor guy in the head.  (That would be me.)

To be fair, my original question was not "what are all the things that need to happen in a MOB?" My interest was in thoughts about how to get the boat (specifically a fast boat under spinnaker) stopped quickly without making more bad things happen.

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5 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

To be fair, my original question was not "what are all the things that need to happen in a MOB?" My interest was in thoughts about how to get the boat (specifically a fast boat under spinnaker) stopped quickly without making more bad things happen.

My answer to that question...An unblinking spotter, a good crew and a controlled steady takedown with good string management.  

NOT plastering the kite up against the rig and flogging the shit out of every thing.

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43 minutes ago, stinky said:

Why gybe? Why not just round up then lose the kite? 

Faster, easier.

I feel like anything asking for fine motor skills or critical thinking would be in short supply when the adrenaline is pumping and a shipmate is overboard. Any any plan involving a quick gybe in any kind of breeze would worry me a lot.

I'm thinking (and happy to be critiqued):

  1. Unless the boat can be stopped almost instantly, ensure the crew overboard is not being towed. Cut lines and/or tether if necessary
  2. Blow the spinnaker sheet and let it fly. Do nothing with the guy/tackline. Ease mainsheet if possible
  3. Helm make a sharp but not violent turn into the wind to above close-hauled but do not change tacks (as is advised in a quick-stop with a jib). I think this should leave you with the main luffing and the spinnaker flagging slightly to leeward, not plastered into the rig where it can get snagged
  4. If the spinnaker is still making the boat unmanageable, blow the halyard and let it fly. Attempt to haul the spinnaker in by the tack
  5. If the spinnaker is still making the boat unmanageable, blow the tack/guy and let the sail go by the boards. 

It seems like that would put the  boat quickly into a stable condition where you could take a deep breath and continue with the rest of the rescue process.

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3 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

My answer to that question...An unblinking spotter, a good crew and a controlled steady takedown with good string management.  

NOT plastering the kite up against the rig and flogging the shit out of every thing.

All of the details are very context dependent.

The goals should be the same:

  1. Stop the boat near the MOB
  2. regain control of the boat
  3. pick them up with out further injuring the MOB

If it's a sunny day with moderate breeze, how you accomplish those goals will be very different than if it is 2am off Conception, blowing 30.

 

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3 minutes ago, stinky said:

All of the details are very context dependent.

The goals should be the same:

  1. Stop the boat near the MOB
  2. regain control of the boat
  3. pick them up with out further injuring the MOB

If it's a sunny day with moderate breeze, how you accomplish those goals will be very different than if it is 2am off Conception, blowing 30.

 

!00% agree.  I think I said that earlier, but good you said it now. 

I just get a bit knocked off my customary equanimity by suggestions like "grab both corners of the spinnaker", which could work on a turbo'ed Opti.

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9 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

!00% agree.  I think I said that earlier, but good you said it now. 

I just get a bit knocked off my customary equanimity by suggestions like "grab both corners of the spinnaker", which could work on a turbo'ed Opti.

I understood "hold the two bottom corners" to mean "do not ease" sheet and tack.

But I am just a lowly bow guy, not a trimmer or, God forbid, a tactician.

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Big takeaway:

NONE of us practice this enough on big boats!  (Dinghies, we live it--but that is non-transferrable).

We MUST take this more seriously.

Even though it is rare, we can do better. Consider it part of seamanship. A good thing.

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Back when I was an instructor trainee in Outward Bound, our leader and captain was a Master All Oceans commercial ship captain. He took all of this seriously. MOB drills. And because it was Outward Bound we did everything the very old fashioned way. He made a BIG point about how far you go if you keep going. 3 knots, you are doing in round numbers 300 ft/minute. That is a whole football field in a minute.

We would throw floating stuff (non-polluting) into the water and watch it go by. (We would also do our speed by counting how long for the 30 ft boat to pass by the object then do simple math--304 ft/min = 5.1 ft/sec and so 30 ft boat is 6 sec = 300 ft/min. Easy).

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3 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

Back when I was an instructor trainee in Outward Bound, our leader and captain was a Master All Oceans commercial ship captain. He took all of this seriously. MOB drills. And because it was Outward Bound we did everything the very old fashioned way. He made a BIG point about how far you go if you keep going. 3 knots, you are doing in round numbers 300 ft/minute. That is a whole football field in a minute.

We would throw floating stuff (non-polluting) into the water and watch it go by. (We would also do our speed by counting how long for the 30 ft boat to pass by the object then do simple math--304 ft/min = 5.1 ft/sec and so 30 ft boat is 6 sec = 300 ft/min. Easy).

Now imagine yourself in a MOD 70 going 30.

yikes.

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1 hour ago, stinky said:

Now imagine yourself in a MOD 70 going 30.

yikes.

 1000 yards every minute. And what kind of G and heeling forces if you just put the helm over with a kite up? 

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I've been communicating with the Seattle Times reporter about what really happened to Greg at PNW Race Week.  We had planned to talk again today, but her editor wants to wait a bit longer to elaborate more about that incident.  

This discussion about MOB/POB techniques in this thread are hugely important for all of us to learn from.

We've practiced MOB/POB recovery in 20 knots of wind with the chute up.  Unbeknownst to us a crewman had gone below and put on a survival suit.  He then launched himself overboard.  It took us 20 minutes to recover him.  We talked through the situation, and reduced the time to 10 minutes on our next effort.  We eventually got the time to less than 6 minutes.  There are many things to learn.

I'm thinking that a gaff hook may be valuable?

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7 minutes ago, view at the front said:

I've been communicating with the Seattle Times reporter about what really happened to Greg at PNW Race Week.  We had planned to talk again today, but her editor wants to wait a bit longer to elaborate more about that incident.  

This discussion about MOB/POB techniques in this thread are hugely important for all of us to learn from.

We've practiced MOB/POB recovery in 20 knots of wind with the chute up.  Unbeknownst to us a crewman had gone below and put on a survival suit.  He then launched himself overboard.  It took us 20 minutes to recover him.  We talked through the situation, and reduced the time to 10 minutes on our next effort.  We eventually got the time to less than 6 minutes.  There are many things to learn.

I'm thinking that a gaff hook may be valuable?

Or a rescue swimmer in the water. There was a recent MOB in a CA coastal race where the elderly MOB went over w/o flotation and a crew member dove in, kept the OG MOB's head above water. I don't know if this was prior to them dropping the kite and turning around, or if it was part of getting a line attached to the the MOB back on board.

Some big boats, like Comanche, have a dedicated swimmer of the watch who's trained and ready to go for a swim to help get a MOB back on the boat. Not sure that's the best idea for most of us, but might eliminate the risk of killing the MOB with the bow in chop (apparently more common than I thought).

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38 minutes ago, stinky said:

Or a rescue swimmer in the water. There was a recent MOB in a CA coastal race where the elderly MOB went over w/o flotation and a crew member dove in, kept the OG MOB's head above water. I don't know if this was prior to them dropping the kite and turning around, or if it was part of getting a line attached to the the MOB back on board.

Some big boats, like Comanche, have a dedicated swimmer of the watch who's trained and ready to go for a swim to help get a MOB back on the boat. Not sure that's the best idea for most of us, but might eliminate the risk of killing the MOB with the bow in chop (apparently more common than I thought).

We had a navy trained seal onboard who was preparing to enter the water to assist, but thought otherwise.  Having 2 people in the water is a really bad idea.

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1 hour ago, view at the front said:

I've been communicating with the Seattle Times reporter about what really happened to Greg at PNW Race Week.  We had planned to talk again today, but her editor wants to wait a bit longer to elaborate more about that incident.  

This discussion about MOB/POB techniques in this thread are hugely important for all of us to learn from.

We've practiced MOB/POB recovery in 20 knots of wind with the chute up.  Unbeknownst to us a crewman had gone below and put on a survival suit.  He then launched himself overboard.  It took us 20 minutes to recover him.  We talked through the situation, and reduced the time to 10 minutes on our next effort.  We eventually got the time to less than 6 minutes.  There are many things to learn.

I'm thinking that a gaff hook may be valuable?

Sorry, but that is one stupid crew member.  It was also a deeply flawed test.  Your idiot crewman came up in a bright orange gumby suit, clambered through the cockpit and jumped overboard with everyone watching him.  POBs just slip over the side during a maneuver or in the middle of the night while peeing.  And after 20 minutes in Puget Sound, the swimmer isn't helping herself any more.  

When Life Sling first came out they had a volunteer jump into Puget Sound as a test/publicity stunt for their "magic" product.  They got him back on board dead.  

 

Bonus question:  Where does the gaff go?  Through the survival suit?  Through the guys arm?  Or his neck?

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2 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

 1000 yards every minute. And what kind of G and heeling forces if you just put the helm over with a kite up? 

It's not the G forces you have to worry about.  It's the rig coming down on your head. 

But to answer your question, everyone in the cockpit is on their ass on the lee side or hanging on to the lifelines, pedestals or winches with their feet in the air.

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Just like I'm pretty sure I don't think the keel should ever fall off a yacht, I'm also pretty sure the rig should not break just cause I put the helm over hard with a kite up.  Me thinks if that is a real issue, people are cutting their safety margins way too thin just for the sake of some silver in the trophy case...

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On 7/6/2021 at 9:55 AM, TJSoCal said:

The job of a tether is to keep crew out of the water and preferably inside the lifelines.

Tethers are double edged sword and if improperly used can guarantee the MOB is being dragged alongside the hull and drowning.  I've been on many boats where tethers are required  in a blow/at night but the boat's not set up for them and/or the crew is using them improperly.  Some thoughts:

  • Padeyes just outside the companionway down low so cockpit crew can clip in before exiting the companionway.  In bigger cockpits, a second pair down low aft for the helmsman/naviguesser, but not so far aft that can swept out of an open transom.  Nobody in the cockpit should ever be swept overboard if properly tethered.  Always clip into the windward padeye and switch sides after things have calmed down after tacks/gybes.
  • Deck crew are much more likely to be swept overboard.  Jacklines have to be bow tight obviously.  Low stretch polyester webbing is much better than stretchy nylon webbing.  They're useful when deck crew is maneuvering about but reclipping to a better padeye/toerail strong point once at station is wise.  Always use the windward jackline & windward strong points on deck whenever possible.  Make sure you clip in *underneath* all lines except those led from the mast base to clutches/pit winches.
  • The reclip maneuver is a risk.  Make sure you're stable,  free hand is firmly grasping a handrail etc., perform the switch when the boat is stable.
  • *Never* clip in to lifelines, shrouds, loaded lines or any movable spars like the boom or spi pole (duh).  Rail meat should never clip in to jacklines, toerails or strong points near them, rather clip in to points near the center of the boat or the lee side.
  • Tethers are a system and only perform well when attached to a good safety harness or combo harness/inflatable life jacket which should be  so tight as to be barely comfortable and have a crotch strap.  Sorry.
  • The latest tethers feature quick release snap shackles on the harness end, double 3'-6'  tethers with the 6' tether retracted with an internal bungee.  Surely new tech but I find the 3' tether kinda useless except for reclipping maneuvers and had the quick release snap shackle pop open once when the lanyard was caught on a shroud.
  • The knife solution (yah, I know it's an OSR requirement) sounds grand, but I doubt the MOB victim can perform it, and, if the MOB is tangled in Vectran/AmSteel sheets/guys that stuff is very hard to saw through unless under high load even with high tech serrated knives. Try it with a piece of scrap on a bight to see what I mean.

Here's an eye opener that posits maybe a fall free no tether approach is better.  An AIS MOB system aboard may be more effective than tethering.

Tethering might not be the best option

 

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53 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Tethers are double edged sword and if improperly used can guarantee the MOB is being dragged alongside the hull and drowning.  I've been on many boats where tethers are required  in a blow/at night but the boat's not set up for them and/or the crew is using them improperly.  Some thoughts:

  • Padeyes just outside the companionway down low so cockpit crew can clip in before exiting the companionway.  In bigger cockpits, a second pair down low aft for the helmsman/naviguesser, but not so far aft that can swept out of an open transom.  Nobody in the cockpit should ever be swept overboard if properly tethered.  Always clip into the windward padeye and switch sides after things have calmed down after tacks/gybes.
  • Deck crew are much more likely to be swept overboard.  Jacklines have to be bow tight obviously.  Low stretch polyester webbing is much better than stretchy nylon webbing.  They're useful when deck crew is maneuvering about but reclipping to a better padeye/toerail strong point once at station is wise.  Always use the windward jackline & windward strong points on deck whenever possible.  Make sure you clip in *underneath* all lines except those led from the mast base to clutches/pit winches.
  • The reclip maneuver is a risk.  Make sure you're stable,  free hand is firmly grasping a handrail etc., perform the switch when the boat is stable.
  • *Never* clip in to lifelines, shrouds, loaded lines or any movable spars like the boom or spi pole (duh).  Rail meat should never clip in to jacklines, toerails or strong points near them, rather clip in to points near the center of the boat or the lee side.
  • Tethers are a system and only perform well when attached to a good safety harness or combo harness/inflatable life jacket which should be  so tight as to be barely comfortable and have a crotch strap.  Sorry.
  • The latest tethers feature quick release snap shackles on the harness end, double 3'-6'  tethers with the 6' tether retracted with an internal bungee.  Surely new tech but I find the 3' tether kinda useless except for reclipping maneuvers and had the quick release snap shackle pop open once when the lanyard was caught on a shroud.
  • The knife solution (yah, I know it's an OSR requirement) sounds grand, but I doubt the MOB victim can perform it, and, if the MOB is tangled in Vectran/AmSteel sheets/guys that stuff is very hard to saw through unless under high load even with high tech serrated knives. Try it with a piece of scrap on a bight to see what I mean.

Here's an eye opener that posits maybe a fall free no tether approach is better.  An AIS MOB system aboard may be more effective than tethering.

Tethering might not be the best option

 

Yeah, I'm likely investing in a AIS MOB system for next season. In the overall scheme of things another $1k won't kill me, and might save someone. 

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1 hour ago, axolotl said:

Here's an eye opener that posits maybe a fall free no tether approach is better.  An AIS MOB system aboard may be more effective than tethering.

reading the article the primary recommendation is:

Quote

The key point, borne out by our tests, is that a tether should prevent you from falling overboard at all.

At no point does the article recommend not using a tether or suggest that a free fall no tether approach is better.

I would tend to agree with your conclusion that you are better not attached to the boat, than attached and in the water. (and the article definitely supports that.)

My reading of this is: with a tether use it properly or not at all.

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Good idea from Practical Sailor here. This sounds like a useful bit of kit. But obviously you'll want to train with it.

Would come in very handy if the COB coudn't be detached from the boat, seems like you could very quickly get their head and torso clear of the water.

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On 7/6/2021 at 10:02 PM, Left Shift said:

Sorry, but that is one stupid crew member.  It was also a deeply flawed test.  Your idiot crewman came up in a bright orange gumby suit, clambered through the cockpit and jumped overboard with everyone watching him.  POBs just slip over the side during a maneuver or in the middle of the night while peeing.  And after 20 minutes in Puget Sound, the swimmer isn't helping herself any more.  

When Life Sling first came out they had a volunteer jump into Puget Sound as a test/publicity stunt for their "magic" product.  They got him back on board dead.  

 

Bonus question:  Where does the gaff go?  Through the survival suit?  Through the guys arm?  Or his neck?

It wasn't a publicity stunt, it was actual MOB practice.  The unfortunate victim had an apparent heart attack from the shock of the cold water.  

The Sailing Foundation used to sponsor live Lifesling MOB training a couple times per year.  That would be a good thing to resurrect.

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We did a regatta a few years ago where the finish line was downwind and uncomfortably close to a lee shore. 

We used the quick-stop method to douse the kite after every race.

It was amazing to see how we could bring the boat to a complete stop within a boat length of the line every single time. 

Everybody should practice this.

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17 minutes ago, sam_crocker said:

 

It wasn't a publicity stunt, it was actual MOB practice.  The unfortunate victim had an apparent heart attack from the shock of the cold water.  

The Sailing Foundation used to sponsor live Lifesling MOB training a couple times per year.  That would be a good thing to resurrect.

Who would guess that Puget Sound had cold water?   Putting a live human being into Puget Sound as a "practice" for deploying safety equipment seems to be the height of irresponsibility.    

I've diligently carried a lifesling on my boat for a couple of decades and even practiced with it.  In general, in anything but smooth waters and zephyrs it seems remarkably ineffective.   And for the record, I've been involved in 7 true POBs.  All recovered.   I've never launched the lifesling as part of those events.  

I imagine the Sailing Foundation's risk management folks might have had some second thoughts about their POB training.  Taking the Safety at Sea liferaft practice class, in a heated pool with life guards all around, convinced me of two things.  1. I never want to be in a life raft and 2. It was one of the most potentially dangerous things I've done in an "educational" environment.  It all sounds benign and almost fun until you dive in.  It's not.  (For what it's worth, everyone I know who went through that class would far prefer to be in a survival suit than a raft after their SaS experience.)

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6 minutes ago, gspot said:

We did a regatta a few years ago where the finish line was downwind and uncomfortably close to a lee shore. 

We used the quick-stop method to douse the kite after every race.

It was amazing to see how we could bring the boat to a complete stop within a boat length of the line every single time. 

Everybody should practice this.

What type of boat?  How big a crew?  What wind strength?

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1 minute ago, Left Shift said:

What type of boat?  How big a crew?  What wind strength?

IOR 2-tonner / 12m, seven crew, 20 knots of breeze.

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3 minutes ago, gspot said:

IOR 2-tonner / 12m, seven crew, 20 knots of breeze.

Thanks.  Good practice.

That's exactly the type of boat that the quick stop should work on.  Fairly heavy boat, carries it's way nicely, probably mast head rig w/ pinhead main, permanent back stay, symmetrical kite with sheets and guys, decent sized, skilled crew.  

Sounds like the end of the South Straits race.

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6 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Thanks.  Good practice. 

Sounds like the end of the South Straits race.

It was the Canadian Forces Sailing Association Regatta and the lee shore finish was off Saxe Point in Esquimalt.

The spectacle actually generated quite a stir in the clubhouse afterward!

We had practiced beforehand with a smaller kite in lighter breeze. 

 

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22 hours ago, JohnMB said:

At no point does the article recommend not using a tether or suggest that a free fall no tether approach is better.

That's true.  The idea that maybe the AIS-MOB system may be more effective was entirely mine.  I say "may" because electronics and salt water are a bad mix.  And my racing career involves mostly races where if there's a MOB he/she's likely to get run over or picked up by another boat :o.

As an aside what ever happened to the MOB pole system, with a tall pole, flag, dye pack, salt water activated pole tip light, floating strobe activated when upended,  life ring and drogue affixed to the stern pulpit and backstay with a quick release lanyard that plops the whole shitterie in an instant?   Some claim they rot in the sun and require battery maintenance but Christ, store them when not racing ashore and the batteries are 5 year life sorta things.(Mexico helicopter shot)

axolotllittle.thumb.jpg.bbd8c9b341ea1271461ae128b9befea9.jpg

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19 minutes ago, axolotl said:

That's true.  The idea that maybe the AIS-MOB system may be more effective was entirely mine.  I say "may" because electronics and salt water are a bad mix.  And my racing career involves mostly races where if there's a MOB he/she's likely to get run over or picked up by another boat :o.

As an aside what ever happened to the MOB pole system, with a tall pole, flag, dye pack, salt water activated pole tip light, floating strobe activated when upended,  life ring and drogue affixed to the stern pulpit and backstay with a quick release lanyard that plops the whole shitterie in an instant?   Some claim they rot in the sun and require battery maintenance but Christ, store them when not racing ashore and the batteries are 5 year life sorta things.(Mexico helicopter shot)

axolotllittle.thumb.jpg.bbd8c9b341ea1271461ae128b9befea9.jpg

I was gonna ask the same thing about the mob pole and also one equipped with a locator beacon. 
 

In the absence of this technology(or even with it)chucking as much stuff that floats(pole, horseshoe, life ring) as fast as possible, if only at the very least to leave a debris trail, would still seem to have merit.

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2 hours ago, axolotl said:

As an aside what ever happened to the MOB pole system, with a tall pole, flag, dye pack, salt water activated pole tip light, floating strobe activated when upended,  life ring and drogue affixed to the stern pulpit and backstay with a quick release lanyard that plops the whole shitterie in an instant?   Some claim they rot in the sun and require battery maintenance but Christ, store them when not racing ashore and the batteries are 5 year life sorta things.(Mexico helicopter shot)

 

That was our go to for cruising, (dan bouy) ours worked with an inversion light, (stored upside down). My dad tested it before night passages,  and we used it for drills, so everyone on board knew how to deploy it. In daylight having a bright orange flag up off the water made it easy to see. Very easy to deploy.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

That was our go to for cruising, (dan bouy) ours worked with an inversion light, (stored upside down). My dad tested it before night passages,  and we used it for drills, so everyone on board knew how to deploy it. In daylight having a bright orange flag up off the water made it easy to see. Very easy to deploy.

 

 

First, they never really went over the side with just a release and toss, more an untangle-and-toss.  Then there was all that crap in the water.  The beacon tied to the flag tied to the horseshoe.  Sure you could do it, but it was a mess, especially at night and in lump.  Like almost all of the gear I've seen, Lifesling included, it mostly works on a sunny calm day in June.   I like the idea of the Danbuoy in its small throwable pack, but I haven't found a way to practice with it without a complete repack.  

But importantly, now many, many boats no longer have fixed backstays to hook the poles to?  (None of my boats for the last 20 years) And subsequent to the IOR days few boat manufacturers want to form a horizontal tube into the transom to slide them away.  

 

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53 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

First, they never really went over the side with just a release and toss, more an untangle-and-toss.  Then there was all that crap in the water.  The beacon tied to the flag tied to the horseshoe.  Sure you could do it, but it was a mess, especially at night and in lump.  Like almost all of the gear I've seen, Lifesling included, it mostly works on a sunny calm day in June.   I like the idea of the Danbuoy in its small throwable pack, but I haven't found a way to practice with it without a complete repack.  

But importantly, now many, many boats no longer have fixed backstays to hook the poles to?  (None of my boats for the last 20 years) And subsequent to the IOR days few boat manufacturers want to form a horizontal tube into the transom to slide them away.  

 

??? Review the picture, the MOB pole gear is carefully packaged so there's no snags when deployed. When it's blowing the system blows off the stern automagically and in DW conditions a push on the pole to leeward deploys it. And junk in the water is a plus, more stuff for the MOB to snag and signal his/her location, get to flotation.  Say whut no backstay negates its utility?  Get rides on bigger boats where a backstay is integral and split backstays can accommodate the MOB pole setup.  I just popped my head up and scanned all the offshore racing boats in on my docks and not one is backstayless.  Agreed the stern torpedo tube setup intruded on the quarterberth space but it was an effective solution to the windage issue, and what about retractable sprit boats where the sprit intrudes on the veeberth space?

I suspect you're just pooping on pop.  Your comment especially concerning a properly deployed LifeSling is suspect, many MOBs have been recovered by utilizing them, especially shorthanded recreational racers with limited onboard resources.  Fill your hand and tell us what your solution is to a MOB situation concerning equipment and training.

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Still a requirement for offshore racing,  just not as visible now most boats use the inflatable (danbouy or sim