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5 hours ago, Sailabout said:

I think this market is starting to get crowded with over supply?

I think there is probably a market for a more cruising oriented catamaran that isn't horribly slow.

 

I'm not sure what would be directly competing with this? Maybe the HH 88, but that is longer and 50% heavier. 

 

I think GB is going for as big as it needs to be to have the space you want, balanced with being as light as it can be to get good performance.

 

I'd be willing to bet this will be the fastest flybridge cat on the market.

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Arguably moving the boom up 6' on a 70' cat isn't going to hurt the performance that much but it still seems like an odd compromise to make. It seems you could easily have a "lounge" on the flybridge without requiring standing headroom under the boom, which would seem more "on-brand".

I'm also not sure how wise it is to be sailing at 25kt with a giant blind spot from the helm! It might not be too bad with a small self tacking jib but if you tack a big asym on that sprit it will completely obscure visibility from that flybridge helm location (which seems like the "working" cockpit) from approximately dead head (accounting for stepping to the side of the helm and the sail luff projecting to windward) to aft of the beam. Seems like racing (or sailing in busy waters) would be pretty sketchy on one of these!

I guess it must have been a "commonly requested feature" but still looks wrong!

Maybe this is to appeal to rich suckers who would buy a Sunreef but like the idea of the "Gunboat performance" and are actually just going to get sailed around by their crew. Porsche makes an SUV which seem like a contradiction but yet they sell lots of them so it probably makes a lot of business sense...

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Balance has the 76 that has a fly bridge. It's decently quick.

Forward cockpit is where you lounge.

Being up high is cool, can spy on the neighbors.

But no where to put a ton of solar, means you're carrying a genset. If you have a fly bridge, the owners want all cabin AC. No f'n way that boat is coming in at 62k lbs.

Agree with Sailabout, buy a frigging power boat.

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This turn of events is interesting, to say the least!

 

Given the portfolio of GLY why would they choose the GB brand for such a design (HH really nipping at their heels)?  First impressions/guesses would have been that the Outremer brand would have crossed this line first.  However I am not privy to the machinations of trying to remain profitable in this sector so at least I still could choose the 68!!

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27 minutes ago, soma said:

I was going to say that a flybridge Gunboat model feels like a desperate act. Outremers are selling like hotcakes so why mess with a successful business model? The new O55 seems like a winner on the water and in the marketplace. 
 

Launching one Gunboat per year, on the other hand, doesn’t seem sustainable. I assume 68 sales aren’t wildly outstripping the build pace, so time to recalibrate. 

Perhaps indeed. 

Is your opinion that the O brand is 'better' because they are selling like crispy johnnycakes? Or that the affordability variable is in play for most intrepid explorers buying new?  You can always add another model, even to just eat some market share with the L,L,FP charter crowd that already sell the fly.

Not to argue your point (as your inside intelligence on all things GB exceeds most 'round these parts) but GLY had to know that the price point of the line would always be a low volume runner (I for one always point to the brand awareness and IP as part of the brand attractiveness when they liquidated in NC).  Perhaps a couple of prospective customers approached GLY and gave them a nudge?  It would make sense if they did.  One never knows the complete story looking in from outside...

 

Cheers!

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I would consider that keeping the best/high end workers employed might be a consideration. The factory may move talent towards the G builds as they get better/more expensive. Keeping the best employee's can get hard when you don't have the high end clients to pay for them. A G72 will certainly have a lot of custom work

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PJ Is a rat bitch who uses these forums to troll for people to threaten. He likes to pretend he is a rich guy so he threatens defamation suits like the bargain basement Peter Thiel wannabe he is

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Obviously a painful (and well documented) history here.  I for one remember how excited most folks in NC were when GB arrived in Wanchese.  The Admiral would fly us up in her Cherokee 235 so we could watch the molds and equipment being installed in the building.  And of course, how upset everyone in the NC marine industry was when things did not work out...  It's an understatement that folks I knew in NC (public and government sectors) really wanted GB to be successful.

Met the original owner of Thirst (GB 55-07 I believe) and his family during Antigua Race Week in '17.  Friends helped crew for them and they did very well (for their first big race).  In discussions during the awards ceremony the owner struck me as a man of incredible character.  He wasn't mad or disillusioned; he was merely disappointed how it all played out.  Of course money helps, as he admitted that the vessel cost him another $1+ million after he got his hands on his hull...

So (especially for those in the industry or have had inside knowledge) what should be the next step for GB?  If not the "V" line, then what?  I'm not a believer that the 80 is going to fill the factory any faster than the 68 (due to sheer cost alone).  But if there is potentially room for the 68, 72V, 80, and another - what should it be?

What say everyone, should GB (under GLY leadership) go: smaller?, less exotic?, less complicated?, or something else?

 

Been grinding fiberglass for 4 hours inside a cabin.  Got to go find a beer.  Cheers!

IMG_0621 (2).JPG

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They should go small. The 48's are like unicorns, super rare and highly desirable. GLY seems to be in a mindset of go big or go home; we'll see how that plays out for them. Going small would open up new customers to them that aren't so uber-wealthy. I hope they're successful whatever direction they go.

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5 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

If PJ has the kind of money it takes to try to intimidate someone with a bullshit libel suit, there are probably some trustees, creditors, and BK judges who want to chat with him about where that cash came from.

 

Such a fucking rat bitch move. The kind of thing people who screw their vendors and customers over repeatedly would do. 

What is that in reference to?

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On 7/7/2021 at 5:31 PM, Soma said:

I was going to say that a flybridge Gunboat model feels like a desperate act. Outremers are selling like hotcakes so why mess with a successful business model? The new O55 seems like a winner on the water and in the marketplace. 
 

Launching one Gunboat per year, on the other hand, doesn’t seem sustainable. I assume 68 sales aren’t wildly outstripping the build pace, so time to recalibrate. 

Aren't Gunboats and Outremers all designed by VPLP and built in adjoining sheds?   So it's just like Chevy and Cadillac.  They could build one GB every 5 years and it wouldn't really matter.

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2 hours ago, Boogie with Stu said:

They should go small. The 48's are like unicorns, super rare and highly desirable. GLY seems to be in a mindset of go big or go home; we'll see how that plays out for them. Going small would open up new customers to them that aren't so uber-wealthy. I hope they're successful whatever direction they go.

could not agree more

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3 minutes ago, drakeborer said:

Yes, very interesting.....

I think (?) Soma had a quote up that was critical of GB but it was aimed at the current ownership if I understood it correctly and not PJ.

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3 hours ago, Boogie with Stu said:

They should go small. The 48's are like unicorns, super rare and highly desirable. GLY seems to be in a mindset of go big or go home; we'll see how that plays out for them. Going small would open up new customers to them that aren't so uber-wealthy. I hope they're successful whatever direction they go.

I think they are unicorns because they don't economically work.  By going smaller you save in materials, but most of the cost of one of these boats is labor, and you don't save that much by making the boat shorter. The systems are still there, the fit and finish work is the same, so you wouldn't have as big of a discount from a 68 as you would think to justify going with the smaller boat.

I'm sure if you asked GB they would politely point you at the Outremer 45.

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6 hours ago, Se7en_speed said:

I think they are unicorns because they don't economically work.  By going smaller you save in materials, but most of the cost of one of these boats is labor, and you don't save that much by making the boat shorter. The systems are still there, the fit and finish work is the same, so you wouldn't have as big of a discount from a 68 as you would think to justify going with the smaller boat.

I'm sure if you asked GB they would politely point you at the Outremer 45.

Agreed. With the evolution of the Outremer range I think the O45 is too close to what a smaller Gunboat would be if it were to fill the 'owner operator' caveat and that doesn't make sense for the GLY group (the new 68s are far more 'integrated' than the earlier models so access for servicing and maintenance of a lot of the systems is arguably trickier and likely needs more skills and time than mast OOs can muster).

The larger/luxury multihull market, that Gunboat helped to create, is growing - with Laidlaw picking up 68.01 and building the 80 I think there's going to be an increase in interest and ownership from current large monohull owners who are starting to appreciate the extra speed and comfort available on a multihull platform. Where one goes other follow...

With the 72 GB are responding to market interest which I would argue is critical to the longevity of the company. We may not all like the result but we aren't the ones writing the cheques....

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There seems to be a list of people that are ex-GB employees that have run other companies into the ground and/or left buyers high and dry. I don't mean everyone but geeze if somebody as GB experience on their CV I would be veerrryyyy careful.  If I read Soma's prior post right I would think hard about the current company as well.

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57 minutes ago, Wess said:

There seems to be a list of people that are ex-GB employees that have run other companies into the ground and/or left buyers high and dry. I don't mean everyone but geeze if somebody as GB experience on their CV I would be veerrryyyy careful.  If I read Soma's prior post right I would think hard about the current company as well.

I think that is disingenuous, or more precisely, an uninformed statement. I can think of maybe one individual who attempted to piggyback off the PJ/GB failures....I dont consider the Holland Composites thing one of those....and I refer specifically to the Daedalus shit show. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, spike said:

I think that is disingenuous, or more precisely, an uninformed statement. I can think of maybe one individual who attempted to piggyback off the PJ/GB failures....I dont consider the Holland Composites thing one of those....and I refer specifically to the Daedalus shit show. 

 

 

 

Not referring to Holland at all. You named one and there are more. A reborn catamaran name that was a classic…. and so on. Too many of my friends lost a lot of money to those ******.

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I like the French yard and the French boats in general. I think they are trying to make a dollar as well as do what is in the best interests of the sailors buying their boats.

No on can argue their sailing process.

The 68 is one sexing looking boat and it performs well.

On the US side I like Lyman Morse as I think that they did a good job with Mala Conductor. Saw her at 'Rob The Rich' when I was there for a survey on our 57.

I think that Aquidneck Custom has the best group of builders right now in the US. Their boats come in light with very little faring. Hull #1 on the 72 was right at 43,000lbs in cruising config medium load. Hull #2 should be about the same (maybe slightly less, 3% maybe) with a totally different and heavier house.

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On 7/9/2021 at 4:56 AM, Se7en_speed said:

I'm sure if you asked GB they would politely point you at the Outremer 45.

Anybody around who’ve sailed an Outremer 45 and still believes it is a ‘Performance Cat’? Are all Outremer Cats still build in Polyester?

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On 7/10/2021 at 10:13 AM, Mordoc said:

Anybody around who’ve sailed an Outremer 45 and still believes it is a ‘Performance Cat’? Are all Outremer Cats still build in Polyester?

 They built at least one 5X in carbon.  Not sure of the resin,  So they would probably build you a 45 in carbon.  But it might be cheaper and get your a faster boat to just buy the next size up.

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On 7/8/2021 at 8:56 PM, Se7en_speed said:

I think they are unicorns because they don't economically work.  By going smaller you save in materials, but most of the cost of one of these boats is labor, and you don't save that much by making the boat shorter. The systems are still there, the fit and finish work is the same, so you wouldn't have as big of a discount from a 68 as you would think to justify going with the smaller boat.

I'm sure if you asked GB they would politely point you at the Outremer 45.

Agreed, especially since they did a carbon 4X for Puffin using the GB technology for the hulls.  Seems like GLY and Outremer are perfectly content to let Outremer handle the sub-60’ market.

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4 hours ago, Boogie with Stu said:

So smaller doesn't have to equate to the same level of tech. Think iPhone Pro and iPhone SE. GLY could introduce that kind of tiering, and pricing. Maybe it dilutes the brand, but as with Apple, I don't think so. I think it lets them sell more boats.

It’s not like they’re gonna sell another 20 million units into a discrete little market segment. These guys fill an order book and then build, maybe they have enough capital to spec out the first one or 2. Maybe. These are bespoke beasts, not charter boats for the Caribbean trade.

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French boat builders and Polyester resin, name a more iconic duo.

On 7/10/2021 at 10:13 PM, Mordoc said:

Anybody around who’ve sailed an Outremer 45 and still believes it is a ‘Performance Cat’? Are all Outremer Cats still build in Polyester?

 

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2 hours ago, darth reapius said:

French boat builders and Polyester resin, name a more iconic duo.

 

Some of them already switched to Vinylester resin or a combination of layers of Vinylester and Polyester (Lagoon), but why a high end (marketing claim) manufacturer (Outremer) still uses cheap Polyester resin? I don‘t get it.

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From a materials science standpoint; there's nothing inherently wrong with polyester resin in building boats.  Like all materials there is no perfect solution and polyester resin has both strengths (pros) and weaknesses (cons).  However, having said that most folks do not wish to pay a premium price for the drawbacks (real or imagined) for a polyester & fiberglass hull.  I wager half of this disdain is due to 'social media talking heads', who have little or no real understanding of the script they are reading.  And half is due to the multi-year osmotic issues a certain French boatyard (and their owners) endured because of carelessness.  All of this in contrast to the thousands of design and analytical engineering hours that have gone into building very good multihulls.  Outremer builds good multihulls with polyester resin.

 

I'm also not finding any evidence of a carbon fiber Outremer.  I do not consider a polyester vessel with CF options a "carbon multihull".  Based on the copious construction photos - both Wildings and Puffin are not CF multi's.  Meaning they are not predominantly carbon fiber and do not have carbon fiber hulls or decks (although they do get engineering kudos for using CF bulkheads even in hull #001).  I would enjoy seeing one of these, and so if anyone has a link or a site that would be appreciated.

 

Let's be safe out there!

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13 hours ago, Boogie with Stu said:

So smaller doesn't have to equate to the same level of tech. Think iPhone Pro and iPhone SE. GLY could introduce that kind of tiering, and pricing. Maybe it dilutes the brand, but as with Apple, I don't think so. I think it lets them sell more boats.

Se7en_speed hit the nail on the head.  It's is much more difficult to scale down in size than it is to scale up while still retaining profit margins.  A smaller boat requires basically all the same equipment as a larger model so the only real cost savings are in labor hours.  In order to reduce labor hours, you need to standardize production and limit options.  On a high end semi-custom catamaran, keeping the labor hours in check is very difficult.  It's pretty much impossible for a brand like GB who's buyers are in it for the name recognition and associated prestige.  They tend to be demanding types who expect their boat to be tailored and customized to all their personal desires.  

It's also worth mentioning that the mid-40s "performance cat" market has recently become very saturated and GLY already builds one of the prime contenders, so they would essentially be creating additional competition against themselves.   With that in mind, I understand why GB doesn't see any value to risking their reputation for a model that would likely bring a fraction of the profitability of a 68 or a 72V.

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14 hours ago, Boogie with Stu said:

So smaller doesn't have to equate to the same level of tech. Think iPhone Pro and iPhone SE. GLY could introduce that kind of tiering, and pricing. Maybe it dilutes the brand, but as with Apple, I don't think so. I think it lets them sell more boats.

I think this approach bears merit.  

  • Carbon Fiber to Fiberglass cost ratios are currently hovering at 6:1 (I rounded up here, as some of us in the SE USA it's more like 5:1).  And that is an all-time low.  As traditional ratios were like 10:1.  And there have been production impacts due to the pandemic...
  • Epoxy to Polyester resin cost rations can be somewhere around 3:1.  
  • French minimum wages are at currently at ~10€ and the average hourly national wage is at ~24€.  Which is rather good from a company standpoint (and I'm not doing a deep dive into other issues here with French labor laws).  It's not as good as the labor costs in Vietnam and China of course, but screw fair trade and all.

 

So what does this mean?  It means that material costs are not irrelevant to building a multihull.  Never have been.  And I think there would be a market for something like an ORC50 (TS5) in all carbon.  A flat out speed machine with some creature comforts (to keep a 'Proper Sailing Admiral' and crew happy).  Who else could make(s) a: slippery fast multi, has at least three cabins, with less complexity and keeping exclusivity?  If not GB?

 

Anyone remember what creature comforts, complex systems, high tech, luxury appointments and electrical appliances did Tribe have when she first launched?

 

Cheers!

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1 hour ago, Airwick said:

That is cool.  Thanks for the link!  Does anyone have any construction photos?

We actually remember seeing this boat in Grand Case (SXM) years ago.

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I build parts of my catamaran (bridgedeck cabin/cockpit sole/mast beam) in stitched e-glass + epoxy and corecell foam with carbon in lots of strategic places. I used up about a 500 ft roll of 12" wide carbon uni. 

Notwithstanding the smell of polyester the epoxy I used had a very long gel time (6 hrs at lowish temps) so I could do a complete big sandwich panel with inner and outer skins in one operation. Corecell is just so much better than the other foams for impact that on cat bridgedecks it's all I'd ever think of using.

The next step up is all carbon/epoxy and that is a big jump in price. Just smarter to keep the size of the bridgedeck moderate, windows small (windows are bloody heavy even in plastic) and live with the weight penalty.

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10 hours ago, Ruminator said:

From a materials science standpoint; there's nothing inherently wrong with polyester resin in building boats.  Like all materials there is no perfect solution and polyester resin has both strengths (pros) and weaknesses (cons).  However, having said that most folks do not wish to pay a premium price for the drawbacks (real or imagined) for a polyester & fiberglass hull.  I wager half of this disdain is due to 'social media talking heads', who have little or no real understanding of the script they are reading.  And half is due to the multi-year osmotic issues a certain French boatyard (and their owners) endured because of carelessness.  All of this in contrast to the thousands of design and analytical engineering hours that have gone into building very good multihulls.  Outremer builds good multihulls with polyester resin.

 

I'm also not finding any evidence of a carbon fiber Outremer.  I do not consider a polyester vessel with CF options a "carbon multihull".  Based on the copious construction photos - both Wildings and Puffin are not CF multi's.  Meaning they are not predominantly carbon fiber and do not have carbon fiber hulls or decks (although they do get engineering kudos for using CF bulkheads even in hull #001).  I would enjoy seeing one of these, and so if anyone has a link or a site that would be appreciated.

 

Let's be safe out there!

You’re right, I was wrong.  They used infusion technology from Gunboat to lower the amount of resin required and thus reducing weight on Puffin.  They didn’t use carbon fiber in the hulls.  See link:

https://sailpuffin.com/2019/05/18/chasing-performance/

 

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No worries.  As long as we are not racing on different boats: it's a collaboration not a competition.

Doug's wording was a little mixed on some of his posts.  I only knew that one because I've studied the construction steps for my own personal refit.

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On 7/13/2021 at 10:52 AM, Mordoc said:

Some of them already switched to Vinylester resin or a combination of layers of Vinylester and Polyester (Lagoon), but why a high end (marketing claim) manufacturer (Outremer) still uses cheap Polyester resin? I don‘t get it.

Outremer seems to use both too: https://pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/outremer-yachting/outremer-5x/20320-57335.html

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  • 4 weeks later...

So the juxtaposition continues:

As the OP started this thread, GB was apparently already in possession of the 72V molds and are already working to finish hull #001.  A fairly well-kept secret in a small industry.  Perhaps they had some foreknowledge of the initial work being done for the HH88...

...

Now as of today, the HH44 is open for orders.  Seems like HH cracked the code on smaller 'unicorns'?  Not saying it's a right/wrong move - just interesting.

2022 HH Catamarans 44 Catamaran for sale - YachtWorld

Yes, the renditions have been on the HH website for a while, but now they're taking down payments.  Small 'unicorns', you don't say...

Perhaps HH is nipping at GB more than realized.  Should be an interesting anarchistic performance at the theatre to watch. 

Me, I'm grabbing some popcorn!

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On 7/13/2021 at 6:36 PM, Zonker said:

Just smarter to keep the size of the bridgedeck moderate, windows small (windows are bloody heavy even in plastic) and live with the weight penalty.

no no, go carbon.....windows are very important:D

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I'm somewhat surprised that Gunboat hasn't used the moulds from Outremer and added a more Gunboaty cabin as a cheap way to make a smaller Gunboat with the Gunboat looks and fit and finish. Although I think there is a long wait list to get an Outremer... 

The looks of the HH's have never done it for much like this 72V, but I do wonder if when they were in the planning stage of the 68, they had done quite a bit of work on the 72V so they wanted to recoup some of their costs and decided to build it. 

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9 hours ago, Zonker said:

The HH44:

That is an incredibly ugly stern

image.png.54131c23bfc5ee7808ddfa8f58d806ea.png

This side stripe/recess is well done

 

I think that was actually well thought out. Can place the helms way aft with little worry to falling overboard. Still gotta walk forward to the mast potentially if things get tripped up.

44ft is small to put that much stuff into it.

 

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Just to be fair, its not possible to compare apples to apples (HH:GB). 

Although the HH website says: "...excellent sailing performance, robust carbon fiber construction, exquisite interior fit and finish,.."  The sales ad says: "Daggerboards, E-Glass, Carbon..."  And the website rendition of the crossbeam presence gives the FG&CF blended construction away.  Perhaps based on initial Ocean Series sales, HH believes that this approach will sell to the 'nouveau riche'.

 

The stern reminds me of some early renditions by Mr. Grainger for the Raku.  I think the Raku can still be ordered with the truncated transoms (to fit the lifting rudders).

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For the price of the HH44, I would be giving serious consideration to the Kinetic KC54, and the Marsaudon ORC50 etc. Larger boats but with similar price tags and possibly more suited to carrying a full complement of cruising gear.

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4 minutes ago, steelmadesteamer said:

Do not forget they compete with GB, not Kinetic:D

GB doesn't make anything smaller than a 68 these days, so really they are in competition with Outremer, Marsaudon, Lagoon, Catana and Kinetic.

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29 minutes ago, F18 Sailor said:

For the price of the HH44,

And that price would be?: ________________________________

 

15 minutes ago, F18 Sailor said:

GB doesn't make anything smaller than a 68 these days, so really they are in competition with Outremer, Marsaudon, Lagoon, Catana and Kinetic.

That was a heated point, battled above in this thread. 

But your point is (mostly) correct: Outremer, Marsaudon, Lagoon, Catana (maybe - but doubtful these days) and Kinetic.

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1 hour ago, Ruminator said:

And that price would be?: ________________________________

 

That was a heated point, battled above in this thread. 

But your point is (mostly) correct: Outremer, Marsaudon, Lagoon, Catana (maybe - but doubtful these days) and Kinetic.

Per the last paragraph in this article, the HH44 starts at $1.2M: https://www.catsailingnews.com/2021/08/hudson-yacht-unveils-new-cat-the-hh44.html

I have ~$1.6M for the base price of a KC54.

I think you could be into a Marsaudon ORC50 for under $1M, but that is a simpler boat with less creature comforts.

I would say it depends on your exact comparison between brands, to cross Outremer completely off the list would be a bit unfair, as the 45 and 4X are pretty direct competitors to the HH44. I certainly agree that a Lagoon would be a step down, and probably Catana as well, at least in terms of build quality.

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I quite like the cabin size & styling on the HH 44. Undecided on the transoms - seems like a bit of extra complexity/hassle to have swim steps. Would like to see where the transoms float, also.

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43 minutes ago, F18 Sailor said:

Per the last paragraph in this article, the HH44 starts at $1.2M: https://www.catsailingnews.com/2021/08/hudson-yacht-unveils-new-cat-the-hh44.html

I have ~$1.6M for the base price of a KC54.

I think you could be into a Marsaudon ORC50 for under $1M, but that is a simpler boat with less creature comforts.

I would say it depends on your exact comparison between brands, to cross Outremer completely off the list would be a bit unfair, as the 45 and 4X are pretty direct competitors to the HH44. I certainly agree that a Lagoon would be a step down, and probably Catana as well, at least in terms of build quality.

Ah, I thought perhaps you had inside information.  Second hand verbiage is also bring the ORC57 in at $1.3M usd.  Marsaudon Composites ORC57 - Catamaran Review -Katamarans  Might be other articles proclaiming different numbers...

Personal perception and judgement towards what constitutes competition to this offering is all good with me.  We just have different answers.

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