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A few days ago I experienced an aka failure while sailing my F27 which had been launched for the season the previous day. Conditions were wind about 15 kt, waves 1-2 ft. We were on starboard tack, on a close reach, doing 10-12 kt. with full main and a storm jib. There was a "crack" sound, and the port ama slowly folded out while the boat gradually heeled more to port and came to a stop.

Needless to say, this ruined my day. Nobody was hurt, but we had to be towed a few miles to the nearest harbor where we managed to call someone to bring the trailer. The boat was hauled out on the trailer (with significant difficulty), and towed back to the boatyard.

Neither I nor anyone I know has ever heard of this happening to any F boat. My contacts include The Multihull Source and the New England Multihull Association. If anyone knows of any similar incident I would like to hear about it. I'm also interested in any ideas about possible causes for this. The boat was in good condition and was well maintained.

I want to find a way to repair this, but it might be difficult for a number of reasons. This model has not been in production for more than 20 years. The molds for the akas do not exist. The design of the amas and akas changed over the course of production, so even if spare parts are available, they would have to be the right type for the earlier ama/aka design. Perhaps the best solution is to find an F27 available for sale that perhaps has been damaged in a different way such that I could make one good boat out of the two damaged boats. Any leads to that effect would be appreciated.

I wanted to include some photos, but I don't see a way to do that. :mellow: If it's possible, please let me know how to do it.

 

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22 minutes ago, Bunyip Bluegum said:

There was a "crack" sound, and the port ama slowly folded out

What does "folded out" mean?  What cracked?  Where is the damage?

Yes, photos would help.  In the reply editor, see the "Drag files here to attach, or choose files..." at the bottom?

attach_photos.thumb.png.0007bef0c8b5ccb9371ff126014ccbd9.png

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The akas broke at the outside end. 

Thanks for the pointer to "Drag files here..." I don't think that was there when I composed the first post.

See photos. 

IMG_0798_ap.jpg

IMG_2417_ap.jpg

IMG_2420_ap.jpg

IMG_2421_ap.jpg

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Ouch! Sorry to hear about your breakage. I haven't heard of any similar incident myself. I would definitely get in touch with Farrier Marine to see what they have to say. I'm sure Ian would help if he was still alive, so you may find something there.

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Ouch indeed. Sorry to hear about this. I do recall something about F27 beam maintenance... separating of the flanges where they were glued together? Doesn't look like your failure mode though.

But it CAN be repaired. Much easier than finding new beams. Even if parts are missing. But it will be important to get a copy of the laminate schedule from a F-82 or F-9A builder to do it properly. Might add 10 lbs to the boat.

My friend drove his roof mounted kayak into an underground garage opening. Cracked 7/8 of the way around.

Before:1310472291_2021-04-1814_33_12.thumb.jpg.cf00c319016e49bb20ab6ccd132f2c3c.jpg1123540467_2021-04-1814_33_55.thumb.jpg.575fc85b8e969d713ce370b8fa66380f.jpg

 

After. This was just me fixing it, with a sander, some glass & epoxy, epoxy filler and rattle can paint. It's actually really hard to fix thin laminates like this.

Part of the black coaming had disappeared and had to be recreated..But he thought it was a write off. $150 in materials later.

20210612_141422.thumb.jpg.fef1a61b31e675f9f3edb6382e375f6e.jpgpaint. 

20210612_141427.thumb.jpg.8c6a3f04d63644d5ba134d882a5ba416.jpg

 

 

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Were the securing bolts in place? Do the folding struts look OK?

Don't forget these were 2 piece beams made in a production facility. Avoiding any fairing is vital for production. Upper half/lower half, glue together.

But for a one off repair, you will have to do a lot of sanding - just takes time. It is repairable.

 

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Steve Marsh who runs Finish Line, http://finishlineotc.com, in Florida may have “spare parts”.  He has picked up some damaged F27’s in the past or Don Wigston, also in Florida, runs Windcraft. https://windcraftmultihulls.com

the New England team you reached out to probably have reached out to them, they all are Corsair dealers.  
 

It is hard to tell from the pictures, but one looks like the Aka seam may have separated.....Ian has/had a bulletin probably moved to here: https://fct.groups.io/g/F-Boats/files which seems to have the old yahoo group archives.

Could you tell if one Aka caved first? Followed by cascading failures?

I would look up the bulletin and check the starboard side per the guide.

 

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Post a message on the groups.io F boats forum, you will get good advice and often spare parts.

I have the beam layup plans for all models if you need them.

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I think this picture shows exactly the type of failure described in the PDF file. Starts at the beam seam, hits the bolt hole (stress raiser) then  cracks the side and slowly peels the beam. IMO, the top of this picture is where the failure ended. It started at the bottom.

"Should the glue line fail here, and be undetected, the failure will grow along the join flange until it reaches a bolt, which then acts as a stress raiser.
A vertical crack running up the side of the beam may then develop from that bolt.
Now it gets serious and must be repaired without delay
"

You may have had this sort of partial failure for a long time and just didn't see it. So this beam probably failed first and then 

image.png.392a41b0a58b2e21360c81084031c83e.png

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Zonker,

I was aware of the flange separation problem, and I thought it was being checked regularly. Initially there were no bolts in the flange. The bolts that are visible were later added because there was visible separation. This repair was done by the Multihull Source, who are very knowledgeable about these boats, and I trust they did it properly. In any case, I will re-inspect it with this in mind. There might be subtle clues that have been overlooked.

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plywoodboy,

I was told that molds for the akas are not available. Are there molds somewhere I haven't heard about? I'm not sure how the layup plans would be used without the molds. 

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Zonker,

3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Were the securing bolts in place? Do the folding struts look OK?

Don't forget these were 2 piece beams made in a production facility. Avoiding any fairing is vital for production. Upper half/lower half, glue together.

But for a one off repair, you will have to do a lot of sanding - just takes time. It is repairable.

 

Yes, the bolts holding the beam ends down were in place and tight.

Yes, the folding struts appear to be ok.

I'm not convinced that repair is practical. It would take some reconstruction, because some pieces were lost. A good sized chunk of core floated away, and I think a section of fiberglass and carbon fiber from the bottom side of the forward aka is gone. I question whether a repair could be as strong as the original.

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A Root cause investigation is important,  so is the sailing!   Check the starboard side for both cracks and the potential foam voids.   Ian mentioned effected hull id’s in the pdf.   Reach out to all the other Corsair dealers to search for potential parts......  this is not a do it yourself fibreglass repair at the component level, but if you can get a port ama with assembled Akas that obviously leads to the quickest return to water.  A few calls will set up realistic expectations for this hull.  There may be rig issues resulting from this failure.... check everything, twice to ensure you have a full understanding of the repair.

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1 hour ago, Bunyip Bluegum said:

I question whether a repair could be as strong as the original.

Sure it could. Because you're not using a female mould and creating a 2 piece beam, the new beam could be one piece foam core with the laminate just glassed over it.

But if you can find a new set of beams and maybe the ama, then that will get you sailing much faster.

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This has happened before at least once. My dear friends broke the front beam of their F-27 off the coast of Haiti and managed to tie the boat together to get in to port. Ian talked them through a repair. this was in the early 90's and the boat is still sailing. So sorry it happened to you. You have one of the "cool" ones without the flanges on the ama's too

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22 hours ago, Zonker said:

Sure it could. Because you're not using a female mould and creating a 2 piece beam, the new beam could be one piece foam core with the laminate just glassed over it.

But if you can find a new set of beams and maybe the ama, then that will get you sailing much faster.

FYI, this Zonker fella knows that of which he speaks. He's probably too modest :ph34r: to call it out, but he is a working marine architect and made major modifications on a Woods catamaran that he subsequently sailed 'round the world with his family. You could hardly receive advice/assessment from better.

If he says it can be repaired, it certainly can be. B)

Here's hoping you are repaired and back on the water quickly and safely!

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You could repair the damage if you have someone with working knowledge of composites guide you.  One trick for alignment, is to use bolts with fender washers  @12"  centers along the seams act as clamps between the separated sections.  Layup the end section till. cured, then grind the next section  work along the seam slowly until the length is fully reinforced, then remove the bolted sections, grind and repair those.  I have done some 10' sections this way without molds that required minimal faring.  Good luck.

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1 hour ago, Bunyip Bluegum said:

Yes. It keeps the aka from "oil canning", among other things.

I realise it get used quite often for it's buoyancy properties in the marine industry .

Won't mention it's water retention issue .

But expected to see something a bit denser inside the  a beam .

 

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Until the development of epoxy foams the selection of syntactic expansion foams suitable for closing in a mold product was not great.

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Yeah not quite sure why the expanding foam - by the time you make the beam skins strong enough for the load they shouldn't oil can over that narrow span. But Ian was a clever guy so he must have a had a reason. Maybe holding dimensional tolerances so the sides didn't move in and out when glued together.

As to if it can be repaired - composites are very good at repairability. You just have to be good with a grinder and sander. In this case the only dimensionally critical part is the part of the beam that slots into the main hull notch. So as long as that fits the beam can be slightly ugly/lumpy elsewhere.

If I was repairing these, I'd cut off the gluing flanges in way of the damage, clamp the torn top skin in place, grind and re-glass the sides. THEN I would scarf the main break in top and bottom skins with very long scarf ratios on top and bottom faces because there is carbon fiber in at least the top and bottom skins right. Carbon needs long scarf ratios (like 50:1) to develop the interlam bonds between the old intact skins and new skins. 

For missing bits: I might pre-form some new boat building foam, lay an inside skin on it and then join it to where the old broken bit is. Then use that to create new top and bottom skins.

THEN more foam panels for the missing sides. Lay up new sides, lapping onto the new top and bottom faces. 

I will add that among beginners making composite repairs there is a hesistancy to remove enough of the damaged areas. Much simpler to just make a square cut  and have a nice square edge for your new repairs to start working from.

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Carbon repair scarf is 100:1 by the way. Start going 100:1 down the broken areas onto good material and virtually all of the beam will be "repaired". If you know the layup ( Peter seems to think he has these ), sometimes its just simpler, less overall hours, more cost effective and physcologically better ( who has never worried about a repair being as good as before ) to make a mold of an existing beam and get on with making a new one. It will save you a heap of time as well. 

I have the layup and beam design of the F85SR if you wanted to strengthen the beams for any reason or you wanted to build without a mold.

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Yeah not quite sure why the expanding foam - by the time you make the beam skins strong enough for the load they shouldn't oil can over that narrow span. But Ian was a clever guy so he must have a had a reason. Maybe holding dimensional tolerances so the sides didn't move in and out when glued together.

As to if it can be repaired - composites are very good at repairability. You just have to be good with a grinder and sander. In this case the only dimensionally critical part is the part of the beam that slots into the main hull notch. So as long as that fits the beam can be slightly ugly/lumpy elsewhere.

If I was repairing these, I'd cut off the gluing flanges in way of the damage, clamp the torn top skin in place, grind and re-glass the sides. THEN I would scarf the main break in top and bottom skins with very long scarf ratios on top and bottom faces because there is carbon fiber in at least the top and bottom skins right. Carbon needs long scarf ratios (like 50:1) to develop the interlam bonds between the old intact skins and new skins. 

For missing bits: I might pre-form some new boat building foam, lay an inside skin on it and then join it to where the old broken bit is. Then use that to create new top and bottom skins.

THEN more foam panels for the missing sides. Lay up new sides, lapping onto the new top and bottom faces. 

I will add that among beginners making composite repairs there is a hesistancy to remove enough of the damaged areas. Much simpler to just make a square cut  and have a nice square edge for your new repairs to start working from.

I fully agree.

The easiest would be to hunt for a written off F27 and salvage two beams.

Having built an F9, including the beams, these boats are repairable. Step one is to get a set of beam plans for the F82. Buy a disc sander and mask.

One possibility is to take dimensions off the starboard beams and then follow the procedures as per Ian's instructions, adapting the measurements to suit.

The other possibility is to take a mould off the top and bottom of a starboard beam and use the laminating schedule off the F82 plans.

Ian said on more than one occasion that the homebuilt beams were far superior because they were one-piece and did nor have the flanges. 

But good luck.

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100:1 for pre-preg under lab conditions. 50:1 for vacuum bagged hand layup where the material UTS of the underlying material won't be nearly as strong.

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I would think that a less-than-labratory fix with lots of cover lamination would work. So interesting that the failure didn't happen near hardware or connectives. It looks like the classic "knuckle under" failure, where the beams fail at the outboard ends with the ama folding under the beams.

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I would align and locally scarf/laminate the remnants together and essentially create a male mold. Fair and thin down the old laminate to a wafer thin shell then laminate a properly fiber oriented new beam over it expecting nothing from the mold, structurally, just a form.

The glued flange deal sucks and could easily be abandoned in favor of continuous filaments connecting the top and bottom elements at plus/minus 45 to better address the shear loading. Maybe the net attachment loading contributed to  the fail - did any serious porkers party on that net!!

I have to believe that expanded foam filler was for flotation and agree with Zonker that expecting it to offer and meaningful column support to the laminate would be optimistic.

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4 hours ago, boardhead said:

I would align and locally scarf/laminate the remnants together and essentially create a male mold. Fair and thin down the old laminate to a wafer thin shell then laminate a properly fiber oriented new beam over it expecting nothing from the mold, structurally, just a form.

Why bother to take all the time to scarf together all the remnants and create a form when you already have the perfect form on the other AMA. You just have to think female form and not male form. At the end of the day which process is going to be quicker time wise ?

When you come to sell the boat and two beams are looking like someones had a go at repairing them badly as compared to having two complete new beams made, I wonder how much that will effect the resale value ?

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2 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Why bother to take all the time to scarf together all the remnants and create a form when you already have the perfect form on the other AMA. You just have to think female form and not male form. At the end of the day which process is going to be quicker time wise ?

When you come to sell the boat and two beams are looking like someones had a go at repairing them badly as compared to having two complete new beams made, I wonder how much that will effect the resale value ?

Because you would be replicating the same questionable method of two halves, stuck together, which put too much emphasis on appearance and cost, less on structural integrity. Better to lose the flanges on the other two beams (like this model did on the ama deck joint) so they match the repaired beams and save yourself the time and materials on a mold nobody needs.

Hey - grind the gel coat off the “good” beams and wrap them in some filaments that add strength and rigidity in place of deadweight. 

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On 7/3/2021 at 1:35 PM, Bunyip Bluegum said:

The akas broke at the outside end. 

Thanks for the pointer to "Drag files here..." I don't think that was there when I composed the first post.

See photos. 

IMG_0798_ap.jpg

IMG_2417_ap.jpg

IMG_2420_ap.jpg

IMG_2421_ap.jpg

Holy shit; sorry to read and see this.  They are great boats but you really need to stay on top of beam maintenance.

On 7/3/2021 at 5:34 PM, Tri Therapy said:

Steve Marsh who runs Finish Line, http://finishlineotc.com, in Florida may have “spare parts”.  He has picked up some damaged F27’s in the past or Don Wigston, also in Florida, runs Windcraft. https://windcraftmultihulls.com

the New England team you reached out to probably have reached out to them, they all are Corsair dealers.  
 

It is hard to tell from the pictures, but one looks like the Aka seam may have separated.....Ian has/had a bulletin probably moved to here: https://fct.groups.io/g/F-Boats/files which seems to have the old yahoo group archives.

Could you tell if one Aka caved first? Followed by cascading failures?

I would look up the bulletin and check the starboard side per the guide.

 

What TRi said. Steve would be my first call.  He had beams.  Not sure if he still does.

On 7/3/2021 at 7:29 PM, Zonker said:

I think this picture shows exactly the type of failure described in the PDF file. Starts at the beam seam, hits the bolt hole (stress raiser) then  cracks the side and slowly peels the beam. IMO, the top of this picture is where the failure ended. It started at the bottom.

"Should the glue line fail here, and be undetected, the failure will grow along the join flange until it reaches a bolt, which then acts as a stress raiser.
A vertical crack running up the side of the beam may then develop from that bolt.
Now it gets serious and must be repaired without delay
"

You may have had this sort of partial failure for a long time and just didn't see it. So this beam probably failed first and then 

image.png.392a41b0a58b2e21360c81084031c83e.png

Yes, this exactly.

Not sure I would do this repair though. Doubt the resale if ever close to what it should be.  Just too many questions. If insured I assume its totaled... take the money and run and buy a different one.

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11 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

It looks like the classic "knuckle under" failure, where the beams fail at the outboard ends with the ama folding under the beams.

The ama folded out, not under the beams. I'm not sure what that indicates about the forces occurring at the time of failure.

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Go with Zonker - learn and enjoy, you can make it stronger than new and be confident in what is under the candy coat.

Finance, insurance, lack of any practical skills are sucking the life blood out and spark of the younger generation.

Write the boat off for that failure - are you kidding!

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3 hours ago, Sailabout said:

They appear to be a different design than a Corsair 27, interesting.

I'm not sure what is meant by this. The boat is of the design before the amas were changed to reduce production cost and difficulty. So, yes it is different than the later design, but it is a Corsair F27 nonetheless.

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If insured, yes you could total it. But a well done repair can be invisible (except for missing flanges will be different from stock)

You can always document it well, or not disclose it to the seller, your choice.

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9 hours ago, Bunyip Bluegum said:

I'm not sure what is meant by this. The boat is of the design before the amas were changed to reduce production cost and difficulty. So, yes it is different than the later design, but it is a Corsair F27 nonetheless.

ok thanks, so they did change he design later on.

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10 hours ago, Sailabout said:

ok thanks, so they did change he design later on.

Not sure it matters to you or anyone else but no not really.  They changed a detail related to the build process.  The design and as it relates to OD racing is unchanged.

 

But that is way off the OP's topic.  I am just hoping he has insurance because the best course is to let them total the boat and go buy a new one.  Talk to the dealers you know because they may suggest you buy the old one back from insurance as salvage and then they will buy it off you for a small profit for them to part out.  Win - win.

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

Not sure it matters to you or anyone else but no not really.  They changed a detail related to the build process.  The design and as it relates to OD racing is unchanged.

 

But that is way off the OP's topic.  I am just hoping he has insurance because the best course is to let them total the boat and go buy a new one.  Talk to the dealers you know because they may suggest you buy the old one back from insurance as salvage and then they will buy it off you for a small profit for them to part out.  Win - win.

you could get the factory to sell you 2 new beams?

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Just now, Sailabout said:

you could get the factory to sell you 2 new beams?

I doubt it.  That design is long out of production (great boat though).  And if they did it would almost certainly take forever.  But I don't speak for Corsair!

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On 7/6/2021 at 7:39 AM, Bunyip Bluegum said:

The ama folded out, not under the beams. I'm not sure what that indicates about the forces occurring at the time of failure.

Sorry, senior moment. Can you tell us how you avoided a capsize? The photo looked like a close call.

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Bonded parts are usually more vulnerable at the bond line, repairing from outside and eliminating bond line is probably stronger and lighter.

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25 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Sorry, senior moment. Can you tell us how you avoided a capsize? The photo looked like a close call.

When I realized what was happening, I immediately released the main sheet. This took most of the pressure off the rig. Without pressure on the rig and without support from the ama on the port side, the main hull found stability when heeled over at about 45 degrees. The surprising thing was that even after I managed to lower both main and jib, the main hull was not very stable in the upright position. Initially we climbed out on the starboard ama to try ro level the boat, but it did not level out until the tow boat had turned us so that the wind was not on the starboard side. Later, after it levelled out, the tow boat asked me to steer to make the tow easier. Soon after I had moved inboard to steer, it heeled over again to the 45 degree position, even with the crew still on the starboard ama.

We had to keep tension on a line to a halyard while trying to get it on the trailer to prevent it from heeling. It took 2-3 people to provide enough tension to keep it up.

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Yikes, thanks for the information. I am surprised you had so much trouble keeping the boat upright after you got the sails down.

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Everyone agrees that getting used beams from a salvage boat is the easiest way to go, but since the most common reason for salvage of an F boat in the first place seems to be beam failure, you already know what a long shot that is. Good luck.

The scary part to me is that your story doesn't include the usual elements such as sailing or motoring into a marker or piling, or misjudging bridge clearance while trailering. And (like me) you have the no-flange floats so your boat was built prior to the ones with beam void problems.

It seems that you were on top of beam maintenance since you had had the flange bolts done in not too distant past. I did that job myself last summer, and also remounted one of the eye straps for mounting the nets on the aft side of forward beam - one of its bolts had pulled out. Makes me wonder if any leakage and seepage from prior to these repairs is a ticking time bomb.

The Beam Bulletin shows the vertical flange separation problem on the aft side of the beam is indicated by vertical cracks. The fact that you had no obvious warning signs or risk factors (other than the flange repair every other F27 has had) is spooky. I've been discussing my first cruise to Dry Tortugas with my wife, and don't think I'll be showing her the pic of your boat heeled over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Can anyone comment on how common such a catastrophic beam failure is in F27s?

I hoped to acquire an F27 at some point in the future, but a failure like this gives some pause, particularly as the F27 has the reputation for being the tough open water performer.

 

 

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The "preventive maintenance" of bolting the flanges is ill advised.

I helped a friend out whose Contour 34 had been "fixed" that but, and after the chainplate parted (crevice cracking) she folded (vertically) shearing both beams.

The build method and the remedy is common to both designs - grind off the flanges and externally wrap the joints the same way the hull deck joint was done (properly) on the earlier (and that) build.

You don't even need carbon as the demands there are low, rather a well prepped surface to bond on to (bye, bye, gelcoat)

Use glass and vinylester resin - it really is not much of a job.

Do it now and tell the wife it's prep for repaint and go enjoy the Tortugas.

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4 hours ago, 23feet said:

Can anyone comment on how common such a catastrophic beam failure is in F27s?

I hoped to acquire an F27 at some point in the future, but a failure like this gives some pause, particularly as the F27 has the reputation for being the tough open water performer.

 

 

This is the first I’ve heard of where someone didn’t hit something (bridge, marker, boat) 

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45 minutes ago, Mizzmo said:

This is the first I’ve heard of where someone didn’t hit something (bridge, marker, boat) 

What he said. And he owns one. And so did I. Ignore the sky is falling crowd.

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5 hours ago, 23feet said:

Can anyone comment on how common such a catastrophic beam failure is in F27s?

I hoped to acquire an F27 at some point in the future, but a failure like this gives some pause, particularly as the F27 has the reputation for being the tough open water performer.

 

 

I own one too but not sure if my earlier comments put me in the sky is falling crowd. I know I won't be grinding down my flanges and wrapping them cloth, but appreciate the perspective boardhead.

For me the tough reputation of the F27 is well deserved. Coming to it from the 24MII, the beams are massive and overbuilt. Which is good if you, like me, have hit something hard. I'm thankful for no sign whatsoever of any cracks in my beams.

So the thing which may be common is guys actually using their boats and as a result sometimes doing bonehead things with them. The picture of a boat at the Finish Line with the tops of its folded beams chopped off by a low bridge comes to mind.

But this is different, assuming it wasn't a case of ignored beam maintenance and inspection. No prior signs, beam just failed.

As an owner, of course I'm telling myself the OP's failure is just a one-time thing, not some early sign of things to come for beams that have passed the 30 years of service mark. Will definitely be following this. Deserves a thread on the F boat forum. OP wants to maintain anonymity perhaps.

 

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14 hours ago, 23feet said:

Can anyone comment on how common such a catastrophic beam failure is in F27s?

I hoped to acquire an F27 at some point in the future, but a failure like this gives some pause, particularly as the F27 has the reputation for being the tough open water performer.

 

 

Ian Farrier was very diligent about issuing bulletins on care and inspection of the structures of all his designs to avoid this sort of failure. Plywood boy has the archive and would let you have any relevant material if you ask him nicely!

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8 hours ago, J_Grove said:

I own one too but not sure if my earlier comments put me in the sky is falling crowd. I know I won't be grinding down my flanges and wrapping them cloth, but appreciate the perspective boardhead.

For me the tough reputation of the F27 is well deserved. Coming to it from the 24MII, the beams are massive and overbuilt. Which is good if you, like me, have hit something hard. I'm thankful for no sign whatsoever of any cracks in my beams.

So the thing which may be common is guys actually using their boats and as a result sometimes doing bonehead things with them. The picture of a boat at the Finish Line with the tops of its folded beams chopped off by a low bridge comes to mind.

But this is different, assuming it wasn't a case of ignored beam maintenance and inspection. No prior signs, beam just failed.

As an owner, of course I'm telling myself the OP's failure is just a one-time thing, not some early sign of things to come for beams that have passed the 30 years of service mark. Will definitely be following this. Deserves a thread on the F boat forum. OP wants to maintain anonymity perhaps.

 

Sorry; did not mean to imply that you were.  My point was I have never heard of or seen a properly maintained beam fail on any Farrier or Corsair.  I would have to guess that the prior repair was not properly done on this beam and or there was unseen / undetected damage from the earlier damage.  Many F27 beams have had those seams resealed and been sailed hard for years afterwards.  The pics make clear this is case of that seam opening up.  No doubt in my mind that ws the failure mode here.  The only possible cause then is the prior repair and or unseen / undetected damage.  Given who the OP stated did the prior repair (one of the best in the biz) what is left is unseen or undetected damage.

There are lots of these bots out there and they are sailed hard and this is n extremely rare event.

When I owned one I checked the beams even more often than I checked the rig. 

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On 7/7/2021 at 7:25 PM, Wess said:

I doubt it.  That design is long out of production (great boat though).  And if they did it would almost certainly take forever.  But I don't speak for Corsair!

I would still be asking if they would make a set of beams...

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

I would still be asking if they would make a set of beams...

Absolutely agree but the fastest way to get back to sailing by far is to let insurance total it and go buy a whole new boat…. Is all I am saying.

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2 hours ago, Sailabout said:

I would still be asking if they would make a set of beams...

According to owners archives, Corsair destroyed molds for F27 beams after they become too worn out. There was no   Incentive to maintain them since such failures are rarity and there is a supply of used parts. There was a possibility of fitting beams from other model, however it would require a purchase of all four beams and significant modification of them and boat’s attachment points. Which is cost prohibitive.  
Unfortunately the boats, most are pushing or over 30 years old, are just getting old. Anyway, I went over beams of my F27 with magnified glass and I don’t see any signs of cracks or delamination. 

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The laminate, particularly a structural one, is far longer lasting than the cemented flanged joint.

Eliminating the flange in favor of some bi-axial will not only provide a longer lasting, stronger joint for the two "halves" it will also supplement whatever filaments are in there handling the shear loading when the bi-axial is extended to the upper and lower elements.

If there are any concerns that the 30 year old laminate has degraded through resin imbrittlement or cycle accumulation and showing a diminished service factor you could add some uni top and bottom. If the beams are all carbon the uni should be carbon, if they are glass/carbon (bad idea) more glass will do.

Each and every aging beam out there is it's own male mold upon which the filaments can be better aligned and pulled in column than in a female mold.

Plus - fixing stuff yourself, better than new, is fun!

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I agree with Boardhead on this one. If you decide to take the insurance and run, I think there would be a few of us interested in the boat.

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Christ, my wife better not see me reading this thread.... I shall not buy a busted F27, I shall not buy a busted F27...

 

 

 

 

Unless I could convince her that it will be fixed in just a few weekends :)

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the part I dont like is due to a part not being available, the boats a write off, this sort of stuff gets noticed by insurers and we are the losers.
The last 27 must barely be 10 years old...

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I have just dug through the Aus archives and can only find software specific files for the F27 beams, just emailed to Bunyip . The data on production boats is all like that. So I have sent the files as well as the more easily read F82 plan data.

But as I often repeat here, all F boat requests for help should go to the forum at https://fct.groups.io/g/main

The group is huge , and the knowledge base massive. With over 450 F27's built, it is very likely that a beam or two is waiting for some love there. 

I must add though that imho the F27 beams were among the most overbuilt of all the models. As mentioned, there were some seams opened up, but if resealed, the boats just keep blasting around the paddock. I imported #33 "Try to Fly" , now "IntrIIgue" from Long Beach to Aus in 2008, thrashed it hard in race and cruise modes and sold it in 2013 to a young fellow who has outdone my level of thrashing in every way. One of my beam seams opened a little and I followed the procedure. The boat still looks and sails like a dream in spite of the number of people on the nets, the size of the waves, and the amount of wind the current owner sails her in.

I offer that typical F27 data because I am sure the damage like that shown here must have either had a prior history of impact damage, a bad repair, a manufacturing issue (extremely super-rare), or a combination of more than one of these factors.

Peter H 

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9 hours ago, Sailabout said:

the part I dont like is due to a part not being available, the boats a write off, this sort of stuff gets noticed by insurers and we are the losers.
The last 27 must barely be 10 years old...

Last F27 was built in 1997. Time flies.

and yeah, there are reports of not being able to insure the boats.

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17 hours ago, Zonker said:

Christ, my wife better not see me reading this thread.... I shall not buy a busted F27, I shall not buy a busted F27...

 

 

 

 

Unless I could convince her that it will be fixed in just a few weekends :)

Best bang for the buck ever. By far.

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3 hours ago, CrazyR said:

Last F27 was built in 1997. Time flies.

and yeah, there are reports of not being able to insure the boats.

Where do people come up with this stuff? In what corner of the planet are people not able to insure an F27? Cause I call BS.

 

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9 hours ago, CrazyR said:

Last F27 was built in 1997. Time flies.

and yeah, there are reports of not being able to insure the boats.

Whats the different to a Corsair 28 beams?

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Bunyip, as a 20+ year F27 crew/owner, I too feel your pain and congratulate your seamanship for preventing capsize and getting her back to the trailer. Yes it looks horrible, but as Zonker, Boardhead and others have already said, it's all fixable. What I don't see in the thread is discussion of the beam-internal webs that make the 'backbone' for connecting the folding struts. Your photos don't show me enough close up in that area, but check very carefully where the  folding mechanism metal disappears into the underside of the beam. Do we have anyone reading this who has experience inside the late 80's / early 90's Corsair F27 or F31 beams, and if so can you comment on the internal structure design? Bunyip, we Farrier home-builders can show you exactly what's inside the plan-build models and share thoughts on extrapolating the F85 laminate schedule over to your Corsair mold-built beams repair. 

I agree the failure seems caused by the previously mentioned flange separation and water intrusion, and if nothing bad has happened to that internal structure, this is way better & more straightforward of a repair.  There's a strong F27 community out here ready to help you get your 'smoothie' fixed (lots of us love the flangeless boats especially). happy to talk it through by phone at any point. Find me thru cartersboat.com

The Corsair beams reach deeply into the float hulls; these breaks are pretty close to the float decks, so I'm kind of worried about getting the unidirectional strength needed for the outboard ends, because the repair fibers won't be going through the float deck and thus not the full length of the beam. If i was doing this repair, I'd be looking at extending the uni fibers on the top side out onto the float deck, and for the underside, wrapping some down onto the float topsides. Not a ton of thickness, but enough to more fully connect the newly repaired beam's load paths to the float hull. Can I get some experienced builders or engineers comment on that concern? Bogus or real? Thanks!

hey Sailabout - really, you think Corsair would stop everything to tool up from scratch to build him new beams for a 30+year old design by former owners in a former country for a sub-30k boat while they have more business in Vietnam than they can handle selling $400k seawinds and $100k+ trailer boats much faster than they can build them????   

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Second the suggestion to reach out to Don Wigston of Windcraft in Ft Walton Florida 

I used to have a highly modified F-27 (the Granger boat, for those familiar). First gen like yours. No problems, even with her array of mods, but I cannot recall if Dub and Tommy modified the akas - they did add a ring frame at the mast/fwd ama area in the main hull

-just remembered, in the link below are pics of the interior showing the ring frame awa the boat. Maybe get some ideas. Click on pic to get to album

F27GS

 

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Small enterprise for an aspiring boatbuilder, Stateside? 

Renovate/update the fleet - numbers make for economy.

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11 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Second the suggestion to reach out to Don Wigston of Windcraft in Ft Walton Florida 

I used to have a highly modified F-27 (the Granger boat, for those familiar). First gen like yours. No problems, even with her array of mods, but I cannot recall if Dub and Tommy modified the akas - they did add a ring frame at the mast/fwd ama area in the main hull

-just remembered, in the link below are pics of the interior showing the ring frame awa the boat. Maybe get some ideas. Click on pic to get to album

F27GS

 

Very nice and well looked after f27 Max, not sure about your choice of interior colour though?:P

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23 hours ago, Ravenswing said:

Bunyip, as a 20+ year F27 crew/owner, I too feel your pain and congratulate your seamanship for preventing capsize and getting her back to the trailer. Yes it looks horrible, but as Zonker, Boardhead and others have already said, it's all fixable. What I don't see in the thread is discussion of the beam-internal webs that make the 'backbone' for connecting the folding struts. Your photos don't show me enough close up in that area, but check very carefully where the  folding mechanism metal disappears into the underside of the beam. Do we have anyone reading this who has experience inside the late 80's / early 90's Corsair F27 or F31 beams, and if so can you comment on the internal structure design? Bunyip, we Farrier home-builders can show you exactly what's inside the plan-build models and share thoughts on extrapolating the F85 laminate schedule over to your Corsair mold-built beams repair. 

I agree the failure seems caused by the previously mentioned flange separation and water intrusion, and if nothing bad has happened to that internal structure, this is way better & more straightforward of a repair.  There's a strong F27 community out here ready to help you get your 'smoothie' fixed (lots of us love the flangeless boats especially). happy to talk it through by phone at any point. Find me thru cartersboat.com

The Corsair beams reach deeply into the float hulls; these breaks are pretty close to the float decks, so I'm kind of worried about getting the unidirectional strength needed for the outboard ends, because the repair fibers won't be going through the float deck and thus not the full length of the beam. If i was doing this repair, I'd be looking at extending the uni fibers on the top side out onto the float deck, and for the underside, wrapping some down onto the float topsides. Not a ton of thickness, but enough to more fully connect the newly repaired beam's load paths to the float hull. Can I get some experienced builders or engineers comment on that concern? Bogus or real? Thanks!

hey Sailabout - really, you think Corsair would stop everything to tool up from scratch to build him new beams for a 30+year old design by former owners in a former country for a sub-30k boat while they have more business in Vietnam than they can handle selling $400k seawinds and $100k+ trailer boats much faster than they can build them????   

no, hence I asked if C28 beams fit, they are tooled up for those

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On 7/8/2021 at 10:08 PM, Zonker said:

Christ, my wife better not see me reading this thread.... I shall not buy a busted F27, I shall not buy a busted F27...

 

 

 

 

Unless I could convince her that it will be fixed in just a few weekends :)

Our raising system dumped the mast for our our L7, and I got a new one from Forte, a bit different, a rotating wing Gunter B), and it’s taken a while, but…

THIS IS AMATI’S WIFE.  What Amati means by “a little while” is 7 YEARS!

Uh….. moving and parts, and… uh….. :rolleyes:  we’re trying new sails today….

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On 7/9/2021 at 10:03 PM, Ravenswing said:

If i was doing this repair, I'd be looking at extending the uni fibers on the top side out onto the float deck, and for the underside, wrapping some down onto the float topsides. Not a ton of thickness, but enough to more fully connect the newly repaired beam's load paths to the float hull. Can I get some experienced builders or engineers comment on that concern?

Yes, totally a good way to do it. A bit of fairing, (spring for Awlfair or Quickfair; you will thank me), a bit of rattle can paint and you'll have trouble finding the joining onto the hull.

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On 7/11/2021 at 5:55 PM, 2flit said:

https://fct.groups.io/g/main/topic/84096491#62020

He seems to be getting better advice with more varied solutions here on SA

 

Yeah John, I've found that the Fboat forum is highly engaged online as users of Farrier's & Corsair designs, but few of the Fboat builders comment unless they are asked specific questions about their boats. I like the problem-solving over here  :)

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My understanding (and it's been a while on this...) from discussions with Ian (some of my own questions to him and other discussions on forums) a while ago is that the front beams on the 27 are very close to being the same as the 28 beams.  There are differences at the beam end and the 27 beams are foam filled while the 28 beams weren't.  I seem to recall Ian saying a 28 front beam could be modded for a 27, but don't recall any specifics and it might just been musing on his part.  I got the impression that the 27 beams were foam filled to fill the space (not really structural), the 28 beams had a vent into the float (he had sent me a diagram of that, don't know if I still have it).  The rear beams on the 27 were unique, being smaller than the front beams, but the 28 beams were similar front to back.  If I recall right In the document about adding a rotating rig to the 27 the subject of the rear beam size was mentioned, and I think maybe some discussion on upgrading them.

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On 7/9/2021 at 3:41 PM, Wess said:

Where do people come up with this stuff? In what corner of the planet are people not able to insure an F27? Cause I call BS.

 

 

On 7/9/2021 at 5:15 PM, Zonker said:

Lots of insurers in Australia don't want anything to do with trimarans.

We had lots of trouble getting trimaran insurance here in Canada about 18 months ago. 

Our broker works with five underwriters and only one would even give us a quote once they heard it was a multihull.

Even the same underwriter that held the policy for the previous owner wouldn't give us a quote, despite having more than 20 years of boat ownership with zero claims.

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On 7/11/2021 at 8:14 PM, Bruno said:

How does that rotating gunter work for you? Been interested in that for a while, unstayed?

We’ll find out soon, I hope…. The top mast is set up for a bolt rope, the bottom mast for bat cars, but the sailmaker put bat cars on the whole luff of the main, so I’m taking out the grommets for the bat cars on the top mast, leaving a bolt rope which seems the right thickness for the sail set on the top mast to slide, and waiting for some Dacron tape to fill the holes so we can see if the sail will actually fit the rig…..:unsure:, so with any luck, next week sometime….

Stayed rig.  No runners. Unstayed seems to make more sense, but try to get that done…..   maybe with Nigel Irens?  I’m hoping we’ve got the top mast stiffness right so we get some automatic gust response.  But the thing was supposed to be for mountain lakes, and we’ve moved to the Salish Sea, so we’ll see if there is any advantage in more of a sea breeze.  Still, the logic that a bendy topmast and lower center of gravity reefed are advantageous in bigger air is beguiling…. But will it go upwind and in the light?  Intended to be a Washington 360 / R2AK boat….

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31 minutes ago, Amati said:

We’ll find out soon, I hope…. The top mast is set up for a bolt rope, the bottom mast for bat cars, but the sailmaker put bat cars on the whole luff of the main, so I’m taking out the grommets for the bat cars on the top mast, leaving a bolt rope which seems the right thickness for the sail set on the top mast to slide, and waiting for some Dacron tape to fill the holes so we can see if the sail will actually fit the rig…..:unsure:, so with any luck, next week sometime….

Stayed rig.  No runners. Unstayed seems to make more sense, but try to get that done…..   maybe with Nigel Irens?  I’m hoping we’ve got the top mast stiffness right so we get some automatic gust response.  But the thing was supposed to be for mountain lakes, and we’ve moved to the Salish Sea, so we’ll see if there is any advantage in more of a sea breeze.  Still, the logic that a bendy topmast and lower center of gravity reefed are advantageous in bigger air is beguiling…. But will it go upwind and in the light?  Intended to be a Washington 360 / R2AK boat….

I wanted a sleeved main for the top mast, but was talked out of it.  Can’t remember why at this point.  I should take this to a different thread if you’re interested…

 

 

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