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How can working waterfronts and pleasure boaters coexist?


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I'm thinking Chester NS has a good plan with different property tax rates for summer people and residents. However, that is essentially  a gentleman's agreement that would probably not stand up if challenged in court. 

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3 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I'm thinking Chester NS has a good plan with different property tax rates for summer people and residents. However, that is essentially  a gentleman's agreement that would probably not stand up if challenged in court. 

I should hope not!

What next? Gas $3.00/gal for locals, $6.00/gal for visitors, $12.00/gal for people we don't like :rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I should hope not!

What next? Gas $3.00/gal for locals, $6.00/gal for visitors, $12.00/gal for people we don't like :rolleyes:

What's a local??  Would love, Love, Love to do that in the mountains.  Might keep the sheep down here...  

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31 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I'm thinking Chester NS has a good plan with different property tax rates for summer people and residents. However, that is essentially  a gentleman's agreement that would probably not stand up if challenged in court. 

That’s a common practice worldwide 

resident rates and residents access to public waterfront 

It a good system 

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15 minutes ago, SailRacer said:

I understand that in South Carolina, if you have oceanfront property and it is not your full time residence, you pay 3 x the property tax rate.

Sounded crazy when I first heard of it.

 

Sail safe!

its crazy when you own something and goverment does that to you

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

That’s a common practice worldwide 

resident rates and residents access to public waterfront 

It a good system 

We have a dock here on the island restricted to working crab boats, which could not likely afford commercial marina rates.

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21 minutes ago, SailRacer said:

I understand that in South Carolina, if you have oceanfront property and it is not your full time residence, you pay 3 x the property tax rate.

Sounded crazy when I first heard of it.

 

Sail safe!

This would seem a massive violation of equal protection clauses plus the fun fact the owners of said houses probably can't even legally vote there. OTOH most of them are probably rentals and the extra tax is a pass-through business expense.

Then you get the fun times when the locals tried to keep the people that pay the majority of the taxes to run these communities out of houses that they own in the early days of Covid.

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4 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This would seem a massive violation of equal protection clauses plus the fun fact the owners of said houses probably can't even legally vote there. OTOH most of them are probably rentals and the extra tax is a pass-through business expense.

Then you get the fun times when the locals tried to keep the people that pay the majority of the taxes to run these communities out of houses that they own in the early days of Covid.

how is that any way violating the equal protection clause 

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5 minutes ago, ziper1221 said:

how is that any way violating the equal protection clause 

I never got how you could tax people vastly different rates for the exact same thing depending on where they live, but apparently there is a way.

I totally get the issue - town X is an amazing place to go with amazing waterfront, then the pleasure boat marinas chase off the working boats that have been there for 300 years and then the condo developers chase off the marinas and then you have a bunch of condos and private docks that sit empty 2/3s of the year and the town is a vague shadow of what it once was.

I remember as a kid we didn't sail to downtown Annapolis because the dock was full of dirty smelly skipjacks and crab boats. If only that were still true :(

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I should hope not!

What next? Gas $3.00/gal for locals, $6.00/gal for visitors, $12.00/gal for people we don't like :rolleyes:

It worked in the south for years.  Especially the "people we don't like" surcharge.

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3 hours ago, SailRacer said:

I understand that in South Carolina, if you have oceanfront property and it is not your full time residence, you pay 3 x the property tax rate.

Sounded crazy when I first heard of it.

 

Sail safe!

Sounds good to me, I’ve always thought only surfers (or sailors) should be allowed to own oceanfront property. ;)

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If memory is still working, Portland, Maine dealt with this very issue some 25 years ago.  Developers were building waterfront condos in the middle of a working waterfront.  Been a couple of decades since I was last there. Have no idea how it all worked out.

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Just now, jerseyguy said:

If memory is still working, Portland, Maine dealt with this very issue some 25 years ago.  Developers were building waterfront condos in the middle of a working waterfront.  Been a couple of decades since I was last there. Have no idea how it all worked out.

Look at Google EArth. They kept the waterfront and developed the existing town. For the most part.

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Kinda like the Friendship, Maine* boat launch ramp fee system.  Resident: free, non-resident $5, kayaks $15.  Think there might be a message there?

 

*Maine’s most ironically named town.   Friend of a friend sold up and decamped after finding about a hundred neatly drilled 1/2” holes in the bottom of his cruising cat.  And that’s relatively mild compared to what the fishermen do to each other.  Usual caveats apply: sure there are plenty of fine people down there, can’t judge everyone by a few hard nuts, etc.  

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7 hours ago, spankoka said:

I'm thinking Chester NS has a good plan with different property tax rates for summer people and residents. However, that is essentially  a gentleman's agreement that would probably not stand up if challenged in court. 

Florida does something like with homestead exemption.  

They knock a bunch off the assessed price.  But if it’s not your primary residence you get taxed at the assessed value.  Now Florida does give its residents a break by not charging any income tax.  Which helps, but they do have a pretty high sales tax rate which helps gouge the visitors, and they have a tourist development tax which is charged on short term rentals.

some localities have figured out a way to relive the tourists of their money while protecting the locals....

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1 hour ago, NaClH20 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, NaClH20 said:

 And that’s relatively mild compared to what the fishermen do to each other.  

I cringe at the episode of Seinfeld where Cosmo pulls a trap. It should come with a disclaimer. Yes, lobster poachers have been known to disappear and the Nova Scotia lobster war is just ugly. 

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17 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

Florida does something like with homestead exemption.  

They knock a bunch off the assessed price.  But if it’s not your primary residence you get taxed at the assessed value.  Now Florida does give its residents a break by not charging any income tax.  Which helps, but they do have a pretty high sales tax rate which helps gouge the visitors, and they have a tourist development tax which is charged on short term rentals.

some localities have figured out a way to relive the tourists of their money while protecting the locals....

And your assessed value can only go up a maximum amount (3% I think) per year.  That helps keeps folks from being taxed out of their home.

Say someone on a fixed income has been living in their home for 40 years if they had to pay property tax based on current value there is a good chance that they would not be able to afford the taxes.  

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18 hours ago, spankoka said:

 

I cringe at the episode of Seinfeld where Cosmo pulls a trap. It should come with a disclaimer. Yes, lobster poachers have been known to disappear and the Nova Scotia lobster war is just ugly. 

On first moving to Maryland, we were warned to NEVER EVER try and save a crab trap if you get tangled in one. You cut it loose, do not even  think about hauling it up to work on reattaching it to the float.

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On 7/12/2021 at 10:00 AM, slug zitski said:

That’s a common practice worldwide 

In Sri Lanka walked into a restaurant. Wife and I each pick up a menu because nobody is around. I say "this place is way too pricey" and she says "What are you talking about; it's cheap".

Local price menu vs tourist menu. We told the waiter when he tried to grab hers we'd eat there if we could order off the cheap menu....

4 hours ago, rockb said:

Say someone on a fixed income has been living in their home for 40 years if they had to pay property tax based on current value there is a good chance that they would not be able to afford the taxes

Because property taxes in Vancouver are tied to vastly inflated house prices, if you bought a house 40 years ago and are a senior, you are allowed to defer the taxes until you sell the place. Then they are all due. But because you've made millions (literally) you can afford the back taxes.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

In Sri Lanka walked into a restaurant. Wife and I each pick up a menu because nobody is around. I say "this place is way too pricey" and she says "What are you talking about; it's cheap".

Local price menu vs tourist menu. We told the waiter when he tried to grab hers we'd eat there if we could order off the cheap menu....

Because property taxes in Vancouver are tied to vastly inflated house prices, if you bought a house 40 years ago and are a senior, you are allowed to defer the taxes until you sell the place. Then they are all due. But because you've made millions (literally) you can afford the back taxes.

That wont end well

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

In Sri Lanka walked into a restaurant. Wife and I each pick up a menu because nobody is around. I say "this place is way too pricey" and she says "What are you talking about; it's cheap".

Local price menu vs tourist menu. We told the waiter when he tried to grab hers we'd eat there if we could order off the cheap menu....

 

Spent 30 years in various Asian countries. You generally get to pay skin tax, no easy way out of it. The trick is to know enough to keep it at an acceptable level.

The wet markets were the best, once you had a few regular vender they would look after you. If the tax from someone else was too high there would be a verbal confrontation between then. Next time, back to whatever you were happy with.

Of course, in real life I am always polite and considerate of local customs...

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I don't mind jacked up prices in markets. Trying to learn the local language (if only numbers) and listen to the guy in front of you. Or ask a few sellers that are not in earshot and compare prices. 

Sri Lankas national parks were really a big variance. All above board, clearly posted. But $25-15 USD/foreigner and local resident = $0.30.   Yeah of course there is an income disparity and all that, but that was a bit steep.

30 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

That wont end well

Why not? My folks are quite old. They had a house, bought it for 44K in 1971. Sold it for 800K in about 2002. Paid their taxes with the proceeds. That's a pretty good rate of return.

Moved to a slightly smaller house, paid about 700K in 2002. Sold it in 2018 for about 2.5M or more. Paid their taxes, etc and moved into an apartment. I think their property taxes were around 10K / year in the 2nd house. So they had to pay 16 yrs x 10K + a bit of interest.

I'm sure they didn't mind considering how much it appreciated.

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On 7/13/2021 at 2:53 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

I never got how you could tax people vastly different rates for the exact same thing depending on where they live, but apparently there is a way.

I totally get the issue - town X is an amazing place to go with amazing waterfront, then the pleasure boat marinas chase off the working boats that have been there for 300 years and then the condo developers chase off the marinas and then you have a bunch of condos and private docks that sit empty 2/3s of the year and the town is a vague shadow of what it once was.

I remember as a kid we didn't sail to downtown Annapolis because the dock was full of dirty smelly skipjacks and crab boats. If only that were still true :(

UK has suffered with this, Chinese developers moved in knocked down lots of residences and built something huge only to leave them empty but UK council tax is  charged on the occupier and there isnt any so no money..oops

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Taxing a property is the only way the gov can get you as hard to run away...
Great story from Ill De Re, France island just off the coast, guy lives in his family stone cottage , retires, was the town postman.
Island has got popular with Parisians so stone shack is now worth millions.
Guy retires and his property tax is about the same as his pension.
Needs to sell and move a hundred miles away where he knows nobody..nice...

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

Taxing a property is the only way the gov can get you as hard to run away...
Great story from Ill De Re, France island just off the coast, guy lives in his family stone cottage , retires, was the town postman.
Island has got popular with Parisians so stone shack is now worth millions.
Guy retires and his property tax is about the same as his pension.
Needs to sell and move a hundred miles away where he knows nobody..nice...

Some places limit tax increases for current residents but then whomever buys the house next gets to start at the current rate. This produces the odd situation where people that have owned a house for 40 years can rent it out for less than the property tax would be if you owned it.

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Out in Saudi there are three prices in the shops, the jinglies price , the Saudis price and the westerners price. ( Jinglies, the Indian / Pakistani/ Bangladeshi cheap labour paid in small change who happen to man the shops as well). Not surprisingly the westerners price is by far the most expensive.

Here on the Norfolk Broads many parishes have traditional moorings, for residents of that parish only at a  rate which is vastly cheaper than a marina or boat yard. Being a member of a sailing club their moorings are between the cost of parish and commercial.. unfortunately my parish isn't on the navigable waterways..

The pubs however are mostly national chains their prices here for a pint can be double what they charge in a non tourist area.

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17 hours ago, Zonker said:

I don't mind jacked up prices in markets. Trying to learn the local language (if only numbers) and listen to the guy in front of you. Or ask a few sellers that are not in earshot and compare prices. 

Sri Lankas national parks were really a big variance. All above board, clearly posted. But $25-15 USD/foreigner and local resident = $0.30.   Yeah of course there is an income disparity and all that, but that was a bit steep.

Why not? My folks are quite old. They had a house, bought it for 44K in 1971. Sold it for 800K in about 2002. Paid their taxes with the proceeds. That's a pretty good rate of return.

Moved to a slightly smaller house, paid about 700K in 2002. Sold it in 2018 for about 2.5M or more. Paid their taxes, etc and moved into an apartment. I think their property taxes were around 10K / year in the 2nd house. So they had to pay 16 yrs x 10K + a bit of interest.

I'm sure they didn't mind considering how much it appreciated.

I expect some housesvto be underwater mortgaged and unable to pay....meanwhile the plan defers municipal income to a future devalued dollar. Leads to larger mini bonds...methinks...?

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The rate of real estate price increases in a number of desirable world cities has to be lived in to understand (Sydney, London, NY, Hong Kong, and yes, Vancouver).

You can't easily get underwater if the annual rate of increase of the value of your property keeps going up. About 2000 the prices started their crazy rise.

 

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One thing that the city and province is doing now is non-resident/empty homes tax based on the value of the home.

Province of BC

  • 2% for foreign owners and satellite families
  • 0.5% for Canadian citizens or permanent residents of Canada who are not members of a satellite family

City of Vancouver

 -     1.25% now, but increasing to 3% in 2021.

If you're a foreigner, you'll be getting taxed 5% of the value of the property every year if you leave it empty. The idea is to free up empty housing stock that has been just bought as an investment for the rental market. Right now if you drive through some neighborhoods, only 1/3 houses are occupied. 

 

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We'll have to see how the human rights tribunal rules on the non-resident tax. I have to think it would be contrary to Singh V. Canada/Section 15 of the Charter. 

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On 7/12/2021 at 2:20 PM, SailRacer said:

I understand that in South Carolina, if you have oceanfront property and it is not your full time residence, you pay 3 x the property tax rate.

Sounded crazy when I first heard of it.

 

Sail safe!

Like commercial, a second home is 1.5x the normal, owner-occupied rate. But retirees pay half the normal, so their beach house could indeed be 3x.

It's all still pretty cheap. It varies by county, but here the normal is .45%.

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