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Leaking new Beneteau First 27


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3 hours ago, Qingdaosog said:

Yes maybe you are right but surely this can be sorted without resorting to courts?  I was probably naive buying one of the first of these aluminium rig  27s but they have been building essentially the same boat for about 7 years .  Its a really good sail and when it is sorted it will give me years of  pleasure.  All I need.is for Beneteau/Seascape to step up to their responsibilities  and I am happy to work with them to sort it all. All I ask is that they start talking to me and try to find solutions . Surely they are not ashamed.of their product ? 

When you have been wronged and still been this reasonable, and the other party has not responded to your requests, you need something to force their hand.

The work that has been done on your boat, they should be ashamed of. both Beneteau for the fix being needed in the first place, and the clown that did it.

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4 hours ago, Qingdaosog said:

 Surely they are not ashamed.of their product ? 

No - they just don't give a shit about it since they have your money.

They hope you will just go away if they ignore you.

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I wrote Andraz M. a mail to point him onto this thread ...

Hope the things are getting better shortly as he is allways caring about owners of Seascape/ First family as much as possible here in Europe!

And he replied to me that the things will be sorted as it was #1 boat and problem with the dealer...hope things go better soom.

The boat deserves it as it is a great little rocketship downhill....

P.

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10 hours ago, patrese said:

I wrote Andraz M. a mail to point him onto this thread ...

Hope the things are getting better shortly as he is allways caring about owners of Seascape/ First family as much as possible here in Europe!

And he replied to me that the things will be sorted as it was #1 boat and problem with the dealer...hope things go better soom.

The boat deserves it as it is a great little rocketship downhill....

P.

Thank you for your efforts Patrese.

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can you take it to the Philippines ?

abortions are illegal there

 

bur seriously ... thats the worst ' repair '? job i have seen

certainly not acceptable for a new boat .. or even one that somebody once cared for a little bit

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Seems to me the manufacturer and the dealer need to get their heads together and sort this out without making it the buyers problem. That said, one thing I learned when I replaced a waste line on my Bene was that the metric diameter fittings didn’t match the hose diameters available to me in the US. They were just a bit smaller and the waste hose I was using was very rigid, so it was hard to get a seal. Maybe the hose used here and the shaft log diameter are of different spec. Again, shouldn’t be a big problem if Bene and the dealer get on the same page. 
 

We have a great support from the Bene dealer here in San Diego, California but my dealings with the dealer in Oakland were a nightmare. Obviously, there is a lack of consistent dealer support throughout their network. It sounds as though this one is completely over its head. 

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Hello just as Patrese dit I pointed the issue to Tomo Novak who is also on the seascape team.

I have been followint the thread and as a Bene dealer i am really sorry for you!

Hope it gets resolved for you Qingdaosog.

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Well,  Beneteau/Seascape have contacted me again to promise action, but then  following that email, a  message  has been sent to me via the Chinese  dealer that in future they only want to communicate with  me through that dealer as that is company protocol...  Oh dear.... Anyway lets see.

In other news, the First 27 has been nominated for Boat of the Year by Sail magazine....  I hope the one they try doesn't leak water.....if it doesn't they will find other aspects of the boat quite impressive. 

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5 hours ago, Qingdaosog said:

Well,  Beneteau/Seascape have contacted me again to promise action, but then  following that email, a  message  has been sent to me via the Chinese  dealer that in future they only want to communicate with  me through that dealer as that is company protocol...  Oh dear.... Anyway lets see.

In other news, the First 27 has been nominated for Boat of the Year by Sail magazine....  I hope the one they try doesn't leak water.....if it doesn't they will find other aspects of the boat quite impressive. 

Well, let’s all email Sail magazine with links to this thread, and CC Beneteau. 
 

Edit: I should add, I work for a rather substantial boat group, and I know for a fact we don’t put up with crap like this from our dealers. Your dealer is clearly useless. Keep dealing with Beneteau no matter what they say. They’ll get tired of you and bully the dealership with threats you could never pull off on your own. 

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5 hours ago, The great unwashed said:

Given that Sail et al are completely funded by advertising income, they sure aren’t going to publish nastygrams about one of their major sources of ad revenue…..

Yes you are right .And I don't want this thread to become a vindictive hate thread. I think so far we have been able to keep it fairly level headed. Its been a therapy for me to have somewhere to discuss my frustrations and get useful feed back from the Anarchists.. But I think its also been a  commentary on the state of the sailing industry . People need to wake up and smell the coffee. There are a lot of other ways for recreational sportsmen to spend their money. And Beneteau certainly haven't been working hard on this problem. 

I wish the First 27  well in the Sail competition. Its a very good sailboat from what I have been able to learn so far. A really nice design, really badly executed.. To be fair I haven't heard of problems from other new owners so maybe they just sent the crap to China... Thats ironic.

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Just now, Qingdaosog said:

Yes you are right .And I don't want this thread to become a vindictive hate thread. I think so far we have been able to keep it fairly level headed. Its been a therapy for me to have somewhere to discuss my frustrations and get useful feed back from the Anarchists.. But I think its also been a  commentary on the state of the sailing industry . People need to wake up and smell the coffee. There are a lot of other ways for recreational sportsmen to spend their money. And Beneteau certainly haven't been working hard on this problem. 

I wish the First 27  well in the Sail competition. Its a very good sailboat from what I have been able to learn so far. A really nice design, really badly executed.. To be fair I haven't heard of problems from other new owners so maybe they just sent the crap to China... Thats ironic.

Sorry Sportsmen and Sportswomen.

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20 hours ago, The great unwashed said:

Given that Sail et al are completely funded by advertising income, they sure aren’t going to publish nastygrams about one of their major sources of ad revenue…..

Of course they wouldn’t. However, I’m sure Scot would have a great time running a story about how a competitor was happy to give boat of the year to a boat trying to sink itself IF there was undeniable proof they’d been told about it. 
 

I say all that as a fan of Beneteau. This is just one shitty dealer. 

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20 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Of course they wouldn’t. However, I’m sure Scot would have a great time running a story about how a competitor was happy to give boat of the year to a boat trying to sink itself IF there was undeniable proof they’d been told about it. 
 

I say all that as a fan of Beneteau. This is just one shitty dealer. 

Oh yes they certainly know about it. Several emails on the issue. 

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This thread has become somewhat heated and short of ideas after over one month. It's clear that the dealer is inexperienced which does not help nor a somewhat incomplete description is the problem. One of the first ideas suggested was to change the clamping to the type that puts an even pressure on the stuffing box (believe me - they work!) - assuming the stuffing box has not been damaged by overtighening the original clamps as shown in the original post and that the engine side does not leak then it seems logical that the leak is between the stuffing box gland and the propshaft (the OP's description here is a bit unclear to me) unless there is a problem with either the shaft or the tube. This type of seal is common and I had one as shown below on my old Volvo Penta. They work great as long as you grease (usually sold with the stuffing box) the gland liberally annually and inspect for shaft (it will grove over time) and lip damage. In the original post the picture shows what looks like a piece of wire going into the seal - what's it doing there? If this is not the problem, I suggest proceeding with a process of elimination including inspection of all the parts. The grease is applied inside the right side of the seal below where there are two lip seals and the grease should fill the gap between them - you should have a plastic spatula to do it so you don't damage the seals. The seal should be a snug fit on the shaft - probably a couple of thousands of an inch, but this should be verified against the spec. For piece of mind I recommend installing a small automatic bilge pump or alarm.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16764&d=1275898165

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7 hours ago, svein99 said:

This thread has become somewhat heated and short of ideas after over one month. It's clear that the dealer is inexperienced which does not help nor a somewhat incomplete description is the problem. One of the first ideas suggested was to change the clamping to the type that puts an even pressure on the stuffing box (believe me - they work!) - assuming the stuffing box has not been damaged by overtighening the original clamps as shown in the original post and that the engine side does not leak then it seems logical that the leak is between the stuffing box gland and the propshaft (the OP's description here is a bit unclear to me) unless there is a problem with either the shaft or the tube. This type of seal is common and I had one as shown below on my old Volvo Penta. They work great as long as you grease (usually sold with the stuffing box) the gland liberally annually and inspect for shaft (it will grove over time) and lip damage. In the original post the picture shows what looks like a piece of wire going into the seal - what's it doing there? If this is not the problem, I suggest proceeding with a process of elimination including inspection of all the parts. The grease is applied inside the right side of the seal below where there are two lip seals and the grease should fill the gap between them - you should have a plastic spatula to do it so you don't damage the seals. The seal should be a snug fit on the shaft - probably a couple of thousands of an inch, but this should be verified against the spec. For piece of mind I recommend installing a small automatic bilge pump or alarm.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16764&d=1275898165

Thanks svein99 for the thoughtful post. One benefit of the temporary repair conducted  by slathering everything with Silkaflex or similar is that the leak was  definitely coming from the tube through the hull end and not from the propshaft seal, which now appears to be doing its job well. There is now no significant ingress of water, though how long this repair can last is anyone's guess.

Good call out on the bilge pump and alarm. I have been thinking about that myself. Would one  work with the few cm of depth available below the engine? (there is no bilge as such on the First 27?) There is a sentinel alarm system fitted to the boat and I would have added a bilge alarm to that but that is not working either.  Maybe incompatible with the China networks. It wont connect. 

 

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On 8/23/2021 at 11:46 PM, European Bloke said:

Let the POS sink and the insurance company can battle it out with the clowns at Bendy.

French sailboat company and a Chinese Insurance company. Not sure that would go well...  Best we keep it afloat using its new silkaflex buoyancy aid.. It's working so far... Still awaiting news on a permanent solution though and the other missing parts have not arrived yet. I did hear the Evergiven is on its way back to Asia. Perhaps that's where they are stashed.. It's had the blame for a lot of other misplaced goodies

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  • 3 months later...

It's some time since I updated this thread. 'Beneteau/Seascape have undertaken to take my First 27 away this winter and make it as good as new.. 'But it's unreasonable to expect compensation. Problems are normal in this industry and should be expected'. Ho-hum... 

Waiting for them to take her away. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and take them on their word for now.  What a carry on....

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54 minutes ago, Qingdaosog said:

make it as good as new.

I thought you would like it a bit better than new, that's when all the problems started isn't it?

Fit for purpose springs to mind, 

57 minutes ago, Qingdaosog said:

Problems are normal in this industry and should be expected

Are they going to put that in their sales brochures now?

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Taking her where? Is the Beneteau agent doing the work or will it be subbed out?
Extraordinary language from the company. 
Just think of that crisp Spring day when you take her out again!

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On 7/13/2021 at 5:25 AM, Qingdaosog said:

Since my Beneteau First 27 arrived in April it has been plagued with issues. (Over 20) Some plain silly and some serious, The worst now is a leaking propshaft seal. Beneteau don't know how to solve this. The shaft is not leaking at the engine end. It is leaking from the rubber secured to the tunnel with jubilee clips. It leaks about a litre an hour when sailing, About 2 litres a day when moored. The First 27 has no bilge so this fills up the engine compartment corroding all the fixings. Anyone had any experience of anything similar? I am desperate.   Beneteau seem to have given up...

 

 

 

That is unacceptable.  The third clamp to the right, different from the other two isn't even on the tube.  It's making the problem worse, see how it is pulling the hose in farther?  That is actually a good trick for removing hoses, as it pulls the hose off the fitting but not good for helping seal.  It also creates a good chance of a leak. I suspect, they have the wrong size hose for the fitting.  The white tape coming out from under it also suggests this.  I am in awe of their solution.  A small amount of sealant as a temporary fix between the tube and the hose would have been acceptable.   That is just. I don't even know.  

Given the other issues you've found I would want to know the following:

1. What is the specified outer diameter of the stern tube supposed to be, then you measure with callipers to make sure it actually is that. 

2.  What the inside diameter of the hose is supposed to be.  It should not slide off that easily.  It is an odd hose to my eye, not PSS bellows, but not traditional stuffing box hose either.  Some hoses are available in very small size increments, and the wrong size is no good.

3. Do other boats of the line from them also have that screw in the tube?  It looks odd to me, as I'm not sure what would be sitting there, perhaps a cutless bearing but I would want to know that that isn't another instance of a bad "fix" to an issue that is unique to your boat.

While you're at it I'd ask what type of seal is used for the driveshaft, So you can look up specifications for the install.  I find it odd that there are no clamps at the seal end, unless it's made as a one piece fitting with the hose.

On 7/14/2021 at 5:42 PM, Ncik said:

Others will have an opinion, but this sort of hose clamp is advisable for underwater use.

 

These clamps are good for high pressure/vibration areas such as exhaust.  However they tend to fail at the spot welds if wet, and a failure there causes a complete failure of the clamp.   Not recommended for a shaft seal!  The non-perforated ones are the best there I think.

On 8/12/2021 at 3:49 AM, Qingdaosog said:

Yes maybe you are right but surely this can be sorted without resorting to courts?  I was probably naive buying one of the first of these aluminium rig  27s but they have been building essentially the same boat for about 7 years .  Its a really good sail and when it is sorted it will give me years of  pleasure.  All I need.is for Beneteau/Seascape to step up to their responsibilities  and I am happy to work with them to sort it all. All I ask is that they start talking to me and try to find solutions . Surely they are not ashamed.of their product ? 

Perhaps, but often a simple letter from a lawyer will smarten them up a little.  Or it will make them refuse to do anything and respond with a lawyer.  Usually the former.  

Given the issues you are seeing all over with the boat, and if Beneteau continues with being useless, I would request the following of the local agent:

1.  Haul the boat.  Remove the "repair" mess they have made and clean everything to how it was.  

2.  Remove the driveshaft from the transmission.

3.  Provide a new piece of hose that is measured by caliber to be the correct size for the tube, long enough to fit where the current one fits and to extend 4" past the end of the tube towards the motor.  Install a solid plug in the end of this hose and clamp it, clamp the hose to the tube.  

4.  Put the boat back in the water for a couple hours or overnight just floating, if no leaks are present than move on to replacing the shaft seal hose with one of the same size as your test.  If it continues to leak, it's a flaw in the tube itself or how it is set in the hull, and more investigation will need to be done.  But this is a cheap(less than 20$ in parts) test to have a final answer.  

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Thank you Startracker for your informative post. 

8 minutes ago, Startracker said:

That is unacceptable.  The third clamp to the right, different from the other two isn't even on the tube.  It's making the problem worse, see how it is pulling the hose in farther?  That is actually a good trick for removing hoses, as it pulls the hose off the fitting but not good for helping seal.  It also creates a good chance of a leak. I suspect, they have the wrong size hose for the fitting.  The white tape coming out from under it also suggests this.  I am in awe of their solution.  A small amount of sealant as a temporary fix between the tube and the hose would have been acceptable.   That is just. I don't even know.  

Given the other issues you've found I would want to know the following:

1. What is the specified outer diameter of the stern tube supposed to be, then you measure with callipers to make sure it actually is that. 

2.  What the inside diameter of the hose is supposed to be.  It should not slide off that easily.  It is an odd hose to my eye, not PSS bellows, but not traditional stuffing box hose either.  Some hoses are available in very small size increments, and the wrong size is no good.

3. Do other boats of the line from them also have that screw in the tube?  It looks odd to me, as I'm not sure what would be sitting there, perhaps a cutless bearing but I would want to know that that isn't another instance of a bad "fix" to an issue that is unique to your boat.

While you're at it I'd ask what type of seal is used for the driveshaft, So you can look up specifications for the install.  I find it odd that there are no clamps at the seal end, unless it's made as a one piece fitting with the hose.

These clamps are good for high pressure/vibration areas such as exhaust.  However they tend to fail at the spot welds if wet, and a failure there causes a complete failure of the clamp.   Not recommended for a shaft seal!  The non-perforated ones are the best there I think.

Perhaps, but often a simple letter from a lawyer will smarten them up a little.  Or it will make them refuse to do anything and respond with a lawyer.  Usually the former.  

Given the issues you are seeing all over with the boat, and if Beneteau continues with being useless, I would request the following of the local agent:

1.  Haul the boat.  Remove the "repair" mess they have made and clean everything to how it was.  

2.  Remove the driveshaft from the transmission.

3.  Provide a new piece of hose that is measured by caliber to be the correct size for the tube, long enough to fit where the current one fits and to extend 4" past the end of the tube towards the motor.  Install a solid plug in the end of this hose and clamp it, clamp the hose to the tube.  

4.  Put the boat back in the water for a couple hours or overnight just floating, if no leaks are present than move on to replacing the shaft seal hose with one of the same size as your test.  If it continues to leak, it's a flaw in the tube itself or how it is set in the hull, and more investigation will need to be done.  But this is a cheap(less than 20$ in parts) test to have a final answer.  

Thank you Startracker for your informative post. Good idea about using a bespoke  hose to check the source of the leak. I am not completely convinced actually that the source of the leak is the seal. Your idea would help to confirm this one way or the other . 

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On 11/29/2021 at 1:03 PM, Qingdaosog said:

It's some time since I updated this thread. 'Beneteau/Seascape have undertaken to take my First 27 away this winter and make it as good as new.. 'But it's unreasonable to expect compensation. Problems are normal in this industry and should be expected'. Ho-hum... 

Waiting for them to take her away. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and take them on their word for now.  What a carry on....

Rather sad that the writer has such little respect for the industry they are part of to make the statement that 'problems are normal'. Perhaps understandable the more complex a boat is but a Seascape 27 is a rather simple little boat. 

Certainly many boats seem to be built more to a price than a quality these days. There are, and certainly were, quality builders out there. When we sold the Cookson 50 I wish we had 7 or 8 of her as that is how many people wanted her and we didn't even advertise her - all word of mouth but Mick Cookson had what is clearly an enviable reputation. Also the Swan 82 we help look after went through a substantial refit a couple of years ago but it was notable that none of the 'fabric' of the boat needed any work at all, only those elements that one would expect to be maintained or replaced.

I remember reading of a New York tailor many years ago with a sign in his window "Good, Cheap, Fast, Pick One".

From reading and hearing of the faults on Qingdaosog's boat, the most remarkable thing is he has been so relatively phlegmatic about the whole thing and frankly Seascape (and Beneteau) are fortunate he hasn't made a bigger stink than he has.

Let's hope that eventually Seascape put this right to the TOTAL satisfaction of her owner.

SS

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My First 27 arrived back at the dealers yesterday on a truck. Every opportunity now for Beneteau/Seascape to fix her properly between now and April. Fingers crossed... 

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Qingdaosog, 

I am curious, has the dealer agreed to provide an inspection report and repair procedure prior to work commencement? Do you have access to the yacht at all times?
I don’t mean to come across as cynical…..

I sincerely hope you receive a ‘new’ yacht in the Spring. 

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Thanks. I will travel to the yard next week and meet the dealer  and go through all the items one by one. For the leak no-one is sure yet what caused it. For other items its clear what needs to be done to repair. For now I am taking them on their word to present me with a " good as new." boat next spring. What else can I do without resorting to threats?   One thing is for sure we will be floating her next spring before return to make sure she is watertight...

I just hope lessons are learnt from this to avoid problems with their new First 36. As Shanghai sailor said up thread, mine is a 'simple little boat'.(Thanks Shang :) ) The new 36  will be a whole new ballgame for the yard.

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It would be good to have the source of the leak agreed by all parties before a remedial work plan is agreed. 
Mine is an even more  ‘simple little boat’ and that didn’t go too well.  
Keep us posted. Best of luck. 

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