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What Action Do You Want Biden to take WRT Cuba?


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I don't doubt that the Cuban health care system functions reasonably well. If it was otherwise there would not be the phenomena of medical tourism in Cuba. 

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On 7/14/2021 at 10:07 PM, Mrleft8 said:

You tell me, how should property disputes in Cuba be settled going forward?

Did the US ever reimburse the Japanese-Americans for the property that was stolen from them in WWII ? 

Those imprisoned ended up losing between $2 billion and $5 billion worth of property in 2017 dollars during the war, according to the Commission on the Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians.

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On 7/13/2021 at 4:02 PM, Cristoforo said:

I’m going to wait and see how AOC feels about the situation and take her guidance before committing 

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Just now, spankoka said:

I don't doubt that the Cuban health care system functions reasonably well. If it was otherwise there would not be the phenomena of medical tourism in Cuba. 

Cuban medical schools are free, and they accept Canadian and US students - but they have to promise to serve the poor for a time after graduation. 

Dirty Commies !! 

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And think about it PAer's  . . . 

There are demonstrations going on constantly all over Latin America - much larger than the ones in Cuba . . 

Why are those others receiving a much different treatment from the corporate media ?? 

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37 minutes ago, spankoka said:

I don't doubt that the Cuban health care system functions reasonably well. If it was otherwise there would not be the phenomena of medical tourism in Cuba. 

@Ventucky Red
 

Last I read, they were considered good for preventative medicine and public health, not so much for high tech diagnostics and procedures.    They work hard with what they have to maximize benefit per dollar, kind of the opposite approach as US medicine.   As a result, they have a slightly better average life expectancy, theirs is going up, and international health rankings give them a slight edge.   It isn’t wise to dismiss our betters.    https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Cuba/United-States/Health

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As far as sport fishing goes, if and when US boats are welcome-it would be wise for the Cubans to require a Cuban observer onboard both as make-work and for conservation. The reality of sport fishing is that it puts a lot more into the local economy per pound of fish than commercial fishing. 

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For what it is worth, in my not extensive experience, people in Cuba seemed more willing to spout off than . .  

people in China.  

For a variety of reasons, lots of USAeans are also reluctant to speak out . . . 

unless they can do so anonymously on line. 

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On 7/13/2021 at 4:50 PM, Sol Rosenberg said:

Anyone willing to go on record and say what they want Biden to do about Cuba?

Yes, he should send Secretary Mayorkas back.

'If You Take to the Sea, You Will Not Come to the United States,' Cuban Refugee DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas Tells Other Cuban Refugees

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6 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Sounds like our R-eich and critical race theory . .  

That list is mostly bogus. 

Except to people who live there. Do you know any? 

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1 hour ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Except to people who live there. Do you know any? 

Careful else you get assigned political positions you don't hold and be reclassified as a member of the **Dogballs**. You're about to contradict AJ the all-knowing.

EDIT: hey, this auto-replace script is really neat. AJ wears the **Dogballs** like a necklace.

FKT

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9 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Careful else you get assigned political positions you don't hold and be reclassified as a member of the **Dogballs**. You're about to contradict AJ the all-knowing.

EDIT: hey, this auto-replace script is really neat. AJ wears the **Dogballs** like a necklace.

FKT

Find something else.  Dogballs is forever tied to Tedious Tom.

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2 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Careful else you get assigned political positions you don't hold and be reclassified as a member of the **Dogballs**. You're about to contradict AJ the all-knowing.

EDIT: hey, this auto-replace script is really neat. AJ wears the **Dogballs** like a necklace.

FKT

I have a bit of firsthand knowledge about Cuba, and friends from whom I hear on a daily basis (when the government doesn’t shut down the internet). 
 

I think the right to vote should be universal. I’m as mad about it being denied to the Cuban people as I am about the GOP trying to make it harder for black people to vote. Putting only one party on the ballot is not a choice. I just don’t think that the embargo is an effective mechanism for bringing about change in Cuba. I have unusual opinions on most matters, because I like to draw my own conclusions. That will always bring me out of alignment with one side or the other. I see that as a good thing. 
 

I tend not to worry about what people say about me, with a couple of exceptions. 

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Can't figure out how we justify communist Viet Nam, or China, being an important trading partner and at the same time, having an embargo on Cuba because "communist".  The embargo, which has been in effect most of my lifetime, obviously has not had the results hoped for.  Having a strong trade and cultural exchange with the closest major land mass may be a bargaining position that could pressure policy changes.  Worth a try.

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2 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Except to people who live there. Do you know any? 

I have been there - guided by those liberation theology Baptists (?) at the Martin Luther King Center in Havana. Full disclosure" it was for a week, but I tried to make it count. 

How about you ?? 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Careful else you get assigned political positions you don't hold and be reclassified as a member of the **Dogballs**. You're about to contradict AJ the all-knowing.

For sure, I even have the audacity to disagree with you when you write caca. 

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7 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

I have been there - guided by those liberation theology Baptists (?) at the Martin Luther King Center in Havana. Full disclosure" it was for a week, but I tried to make it count. 

How about you ?? 

You're serious?

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52 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

I think the right to vote should be universal. I’m as mad about it being denied to the Cuban people as I am about the GOP trying to make it harder for black people to vote. Putting only one party on the ballot is not a choice.

Well, Cuba does have elections, and as you likely know, candidates who get on the ballot have to agree with "the trajectory of the revolution". But a number of non-commies and religious folks have been elected. 

And then there is the US, with no way of vetting candidates before they go on the ballot. And we wind up with a Drumph, and a Boebert, and a MTG, and a Gosar . . .

Which system is better ?? 

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2 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

You're serious?

Mr. Sol asked me a question, and I responded to it accurately and civilly. 

Then I asked him the identical question. 

What is wrong with that ?? 

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51 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Mr. Sol asked me a question, and I responded to it accurately and civilly. 

Then I asked him the identical question. 

What is wrong with that ?? 

For a person that frequents this board you are remarkably unaware of the postings and experiences of other members.  If I had to hazard a guess as to why I’d posit it’s because your a self absorbed twit.

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When I have questions about Cuba and visiting Cuba, I PM Sol. I should mention that I also know Cubans in the Bay Area.   I, on the other hand, am the board expert on Britney Spears.

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3 hours ago, bridhb said:

Can't figure out how we justify communist Viet Nam, or China, being an important trading partner and at the same time, having an embargo on Cuba because "communist". 

Pandering to South Floriduh votes - pure and simple.

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Quote

What Action Do You Want Biden to take WRT Cuba?

Rosy armchair. :ph34r:

 

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On 7/13/2021 at 8:25 PM, Borracho said:

Yes, But no. Aid sounds great but becomes a political tool. If not Biden then the next admin or congress critters. Empower the UN (or something better) to handle humanitrian things. Maybe?

It becomes a political tool in support of the regime.

See NK as an example.

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3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

I have been there - guided by those liberation theology Baptists (?) at the Martin Luther King Center in Havana. Full disclosure" it was for a week, but I tried to make it count. 

How about you ?? 

I have a girlfriend in Havana. She stands in line on her two days each week which are assigned to her. She stands in the heat all day. Sometimes she gets a chicken for her family, sometimes not. Her job in a private restaurant is shut down due to COVID. We chat by WhatsApp on a nearly daily basis if the government has the Internet turned on.  She keeps me up to date on what is happening. Another buddy chats with me a couple of times a week. He works a government job.  His brother rolls cigars and gets me gobs of them when I visited. I have friends who rent me my beautiful 1 br/1ba apartment overlooking the entrance to Marina Hemingway. They thrive when they can rent that out. 
 

I organized an event that took a thousand people to Havana safely and legally, between 2016 and 2019, dealing with both private and governmental entities.  I have a pretty good feel for what is going on. I have lobbied the Cuban government for a policy change that the eventually made. The private system was thriving and being allowed to expand until Trump nixed travel. That gave the Cuban government an excuse. 
 

Like most issues, things are not all black and white. There is not one single right answer in the real world. I happen to think that it is more effective for us to ease travel restrictions while putting pressure on the Cuban government to advance democratic reforms. I don’t think that holding a hard line works for either side of the straights, it only benefits the hard liners. This takes lots of tedious hard work to break through a myriad of issues. We must be committed to a long game, not short electoral politics. 
 

I am not a fan of the Miami Anti Castro Cuban crowd, though some of my friends are part of it. They don’t agree with my views, nor do I with theirs, but we know that each other’s hearts are in the right place. 

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2 hours ago, Olsonist said:

I, on the other hand, am the board expert on Britney Spears.

I thought it was my turn.  You really need to stop hogging the prime jobs.

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3 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:
3 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

You're serious?

Mr. Sol asked me a question, and I responded to it accurately and civilly. 

Then I asked him the identical question. 

What is wrong with that ?? 

I see Sol has responded, so I'll just leave you to read his post and learn.

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Is the Philippines the country that should do the nation-building in Cuba? Both are island nations that lack built-in advantages like oil and minerals. The Philippines has been quite successful in making the most out of their resources. Sure would beat the CIA or US Military nation-building efforts (100% failure). Their transportation systems share many parts, too.

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I can’t say the US military has been a 100% fail. The Marshall Plan in Europe and whatever it was called in Japan was pretty good. But post-WW2 it’s been worse than fail.

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Work on opening the economy and stop subsidizing American sugar producers. If they want capitalism, let them have it. Without price supports. Free markets, free people. 
 

Cuba will do just fine in that scenario. 

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Sugar probably won't be what investors glom onto though. It's the cobalt, nickel and offshore oil that would attract a lot of interest. 

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43 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

 

I organized an event that took a thousand people to Havana safely and legally, between 2016 and 2019, dealing with both private and governmental entities.  

All by yourself? That must have been hard.

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The first one early killed me btw, literally. Six months of working on nothing else. El Comodoro stress resulted in a TIA a week or two after my return. 
 

I will say that el jefe is a good title to have down there. 

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16 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

I see Sol has responded, so I'll just leave you to read his post and learn.

Because that's obviously been working so well up to this point.

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On 7/16/2021 at 7:50 PM, Sol Rosenberg said:

Agreed, but how to get the other government to allow it?

Anyone that can get here gets in.

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It's actually an interesting question as to whether the government of Cuba wants to have to have normal relations with the USA, as long as the USA recognizes Guaidio as president of Venezuela. Everybody just assumes that the Cuban side wants the US embargo to end. 

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35 minutes ago, spankoka said:

It's actually an interesting question as to whether the government of Cuba wants to have to have normal relations with the USA, as long as the USA recognizes Guaidio as president of Venezuela. Everybody just assumes that the Cuban side wants the US embargo to end. 

Do we get to vote on it? Nope. 

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1 hour ago, spankoka said:

It's actually an interesting question as to whether the government of Cuba wants to have to have normal relations with the USA, as long as the USA recognizes Guaidio as president of Venezuela. Everybody just assumes that the Cuban side wants the US embargo to end. 

We had the same problem with Vietnam. The POW/MIA community felt they had veto power over everything. They didn't want to reestablish diplomatic and trade relations. In 1995, Clinton kind of just did it, reestablished an embassy. He had the advantage of McCain + Kerry being in the Senate and favoring it. And now that sad chapter is over.

Rubio and Cruz are Cubans but they're self serving idiots. I believe Menendez is also anti-normalization. So after Obama re-established an embassy, Republicans have refused to confirm ambassadors and so we have had a litany of chargé d'affaires ad interims since 2015.

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On 7/17/2021 at 2:51 AM, Bus Driver said:

I see Sol has responded, so I'll just leave you to read his post and learn.

Hahaha! AJ isn’t here to learn.

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My feeling is that they don't need your kind of help and that it's time to free Cuba and give them back torture Island (GITMO). Then stay out, don't interfere in their elections, leave them alone, go home and blow yourself. :ph34r:

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Venom said:

My feeling is that they don't need your kind of help and that it's time to free Cuba and give them back torture Island (GITMO). Then stay out, don't interfere in their elections, leave them alone, go home and blow yourself. :ph34r:

 

 

 

 

Yeah "all countries that have suffered under capitalism."  What a clown.

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1 minute ago, jzk said:

Yeah "all countries that have suffered under capitalism."  

Is that what you call it? :D

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1 minute ago, Venom said:

Is that what you call it? :D

Well, if I am using quotations then I am citing what someone else calls it.

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31 minutes ago, jzk said:

Well, if I am using quotations then I am citing what someone else calls it.

I wouldn't call it that, Jimmy might but I'd call it something else but history is not something they teach in middle school. :ph34r:

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OMG! The Russian threat is real and in Cuba!

Russia is on the march and trying to meddle in our affairs. :angry:

They must be stopped from taking over the world!

Rube 2024

 

 

 

 

 

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One thing that might help re-unify and reconcile Miami Cubans and Cubans on the Island . . 

would be for the Miami's to stop saying that when they take over the island they will eliminate (i.e., murder) the communists. 

The Cuban CP numbers around 700,000 souls. All of them are will aware of the threats emanating from Miami. 

And don't say that this, "will never happen". 

In 1975, the US and the Indonesian govt. cooperated to carry out the murder of 500,000 supposed leftists in just a few weeks. 

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And what do y'all have in mind for re-privatizing property in Cuba  ?? 

In Russia it was a disaster, and made at least half of the population worse off than under communism. 

In Germany, privatizing property in the East went reasonably smoothly; one of the Germans I used to play basketball with over there wound up with a pretty high level job working for the Commission which was in charge of the process - but I never had the chance to ask him what he thought about it. 

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On 7/16/2021 at 5:42 AM, Sol Rosenberg said:

I tend not to worry about what people say about me, with a couple of exceptions

Out of curiosity, what are they?

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On 7/16/2021 at 7:35 AM, Fakenews said:

For a person that frequents this board you are remarkably unaware of the postings and experiences of other members.  If I had to hazard a guess as to why I’d posit it’s because your're a self absorbed twit.

DING!  I don't often agree with you, gaytor.  But this is spot on.  

I feel all dirty now.  Must. go. shower.......

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On 7/16/2021 at 4:50 PM, Sol Rosenberg said:
On 7/16/2021 at 2:27 PM, jzk said:

Offer green cards to anyone from Cuba.

Agreed, but how to get the other government to allow it?

Why should cubans have green cards by default???  Does that mean that all of Haiti, DR, ABC, and all of the windward and leeward islands get Green cards too?  And if not, then what makes cuba so special?

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2 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

what makes cuba so special?

Proximity

 

also see “false equivalence”. One group receiving preference has no logical implication on other groups receiving or not receiving preference. 

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1 minute ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Proximity

 

also see “false equivalence”. One group receiving preference has no logical implication on other groups receiving or not receiving preference. 

It's not at all about False Equivalence.  There is nothing about Cuba that deserves carte blanche Green Cards vs any of its neighbors.  Also, by your proximity logic:  Mexico and Canuckistan should get theirs first.

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Just now, AJ Oliver said:

Mexico and Canada are more proximate than Cuber. 

How many Mexicans and Canadians do we allow in every year dummy

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Just now, Burning Man said:

It's not at all about False Equivalence.  There is nothing about Cuba that deserves carte blanche Green Cards vs any of its neighbors.  Also, by your proximity logic:  Mexico and Canuckistan should get theirs first.

Number of green cards annually to Canadians:

mexicans:

cubans:

 

go!

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2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Number of green cards annually to Canadians:

mexicans:

cubans:

 

go!

Do we offer green cards to "ANYONE" from either mexico or canada??  GO!  That was the topic being discussed.  I know it's a fast moving game here and you're new.  But do try to keep up.  

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2 minutes ago, Borracho said:

Green Cards in the land of liberty and freedom? Makes no sense. 

If it really was the land of liberty and freedom Trump and his supporters would have been evicted.

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

If it really was the land of liberty and freedom Trump and his supporters would have been evicted.

Oh, they are going to get evicted.  We're sending them north.  Y'all have plenty of desolate land up north that's not being used.  What could happen....?

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The CBSA may be going on strike, so sleeping in your car at the border could happen. This gets complicated because as much as Mr. Trudeau might want to smooth everything over with money at the most critical time in the whole history of the Canusa border since the Fenian terrorists, it's unclear if the PMO gets to boss around the Treasury Board on frontline collective bargaining. The CBSA's union has played their hand really well here, to ask to get paid in the middle of an election/border reopening.  

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8 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Do we offer green cards to "ANYONE" from either mexico or canada??  GO!  That was the topic being discussed.  I know it's a fast moving game here and you're new.  But do try to keep up.  

Boy, I really hate it when we agree . . . 

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On 7/20/2021 at 4:02 PM, Burning Man said:

Why should cubans have green cards by default???  Does that mean that all of Haiti, DR, ABC, and all of the windward and leeward islands get Green cards too?  And if not, then what makes cuba so special?

Cuba is a special case because they are suffering under an authoritarian regime run for the benefit of their oligarchs, right here in our hemisphere. Unlike Iraq before we invaded, Cubans have expressed their desire for freedom, some taking to the streets to demand it. If they get here they should be allowed to pursue the dream. Haitians too.
 

Nobody else in the hemisphere would want to risk their lives traveling here until the Dixiecrats go back under their rocks and pretend to be humans again. 

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On 7/20/2021 at 8:57 PM, Burning Man said:

We're sending them north.  Y'all have plenty of desolate land up north that's not being used.

They'll have to get through that continent-spanning Canadian border privacy hedge first . . 

(Seriously though, the Canadians are quite tough on illegal entry, including sailboats being operated by the clueless) 

The Out And Abouter on Twitter: "Canadian GoFundMe Raises $6B In Two Hours  To Pay For Privacy Hedge Along Entire US Border https://t.co/9DaFeAjx9i… "

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On 7/16/2021 at 5:27 PM, jzk said:

Offer green cards to anyone from Cuba.

Permanent with work?    Before we give that right to Americans born in a Samoa?    

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11 minutes ago, Excoded Tom said:

I’d like that, but I suspect the Cuban government would find a way to block it. There is a bit of a problem. If we can get Internet to all Cubans, why can’t we get Internet to all Americans? Perhaps working on that problem here at home would give us a chance to perfect the process before taking our act abroad. 
 

I like Mexico’s way. No muss. No fuss. Just send a ship with diesel and another ship with humanitarian supplies. Make sure they can keep hospitals running. 

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37 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

I’d like that, but I suspect the Cuban government would find a way to block it. There is a bit of a problem. If we can get Internet to all Cubans, why can’t we get Internet to all Americans? Perhaps working on that problem here at home would give us a chance to perfect the process before taking our act abroad. 
 

I like Mexico’s way. No muss. No fuss. Just send a ship with diesel and another ship with humanitarian supplies. Make sure they can keep hospitals running. 

Because that would be Socialisticalismness.

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1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Wait a tick. I didn’t say that we would do either without Wall Street getting the cut to which it is entitled. 

Gotta make sure the most deserving Americans get their share.  Of course, they will also get your share and my share.  But, that is only right and just.

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4 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Gotta make sure the most deserving Americans get their share.  Of course, they will also get your share and my share.  But, that is only right and just.

Anything less would be Socialism and we don’t want to be like Cuba, where the folks at the top live off of the masses. 

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Just to be clear, looks like Biden has broken his campaign promise to normalize relations with Cuba.  

One may argue that the current situation merits a different response, but I disagree with that. 

It's not just Cuba - the US Blob has a long tradition of making average people suffer when it 

opposes the government of a country. 

Recall Kissinger's policy vis a vis Chile in the 1970's to "make the economy scream". 

It is unconscionable to make the innocent suffer for the supposed sins of their leaders. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/22/biden-sanction-cuban-officials-following-attacks-protesters/8054487002/

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5 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Just to be clear, looks like Biden has broken his campaign promise to normalize relations with Cuba.  

One may argue that the current situation merits a different response, but I disagree with that. 

It's not just Cuba - the US Blob has a long tradition of making average people suffer when it 

opposes the government of a country. 

Recall Kissinger's policy vis a vis Chile in the 1970's to "make the economy scream". 

It is unconscionable to make the innocent suffer for the supposed sins of their leaders. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/07/22/biden-sanction-cuban-officials-following-attacks-protesters/8054487002/

He did break his promise, and it was pretty clear that he would when he nominated Tony Blinken for Sec of State. Blinken is a hardliner on Cuba. 

It is unconscionable to make the innocent suffer there. We should end the embargo and follow Mexico's lead with humanitarian relief. 

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5 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

his promise,

Later this year Code Pink is organizing a Friendship Flotilla to take humanitarian aid to Cuba (Key West to Havana) 

I will try to support it as best I can, and may even go along. 

Check the website below for more details and some interesting history on nautical protests  . . 

https://www.codepink.org/cubanov2021

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A bit more info on nautical protests . .   (sorry if this is too much thread drift - now back to discussing Cuba !!) 

Probably the maritime protesters who faced the most danger were the Gaza Freedom Flotilla sailors in 2010. 

A VFP stalwart was on the voyage and came face to face with murderous Israeli commandos. She lost whatever respect or sympathy for Israel that she might have previously had . . Undeterred, she still protests constantly. 

The Gaza flotilla raid was a military operation by Israel against six civilian ships of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" on 31 May 2010 in international waters in the Mediterranean Sea. Nine activists were killed on one ship during the raid and ten Israeli soldiers were wounded, one seriously. One further Turkish activist died later of his wounds. Three of the six flotilla ships, organized by the Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (İHH), were carrying humanitarian aid and construction materials, with the intention of breaking the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip. Israel had warned the flotilla to abort their mission, describing it as a provocation.[1]

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