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A few snapped from hurst

A small sample of the many hundreds of photos I took today from the Hurst Castle vantage point. Skorpios, Hugo Boss, Apivia, 11th Hour Racing etc. I will add more tomorrow when I have time t

If I was involved with a boat where checking the keel bolts that often was considered necessary in a lumpy sea I would not be doing the Fastnet on it.

Posted Images

21 hours ago, Monkey said:

Alex and the HB team have always been open about saying the boat was never designed with any fucks given towards non Vendee conditions. 

It's all quite well laid out in this article from two years ago. 

https://www.tipandshaft.com/en/imoca-en/quentin-lucet-on-hugo-boss-we-focused-on-hydrodynamic-drag

HB hasn't benefitted from the gain in upwind performance like the other boats with the same gen foils. 

Eg Charal has a similar hull, but totally different foils. 

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16 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

As a lawyer he should be able to read (and write), imnotsoho.

BTW, where is Wouter navigating on?

PS. Fuck, did they also cross the DSS (and left the rock to stbd)?

Fun fact, he was my next door neighbour 

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15 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

Have to leave the Fastnet TSS to port in both directions

From the sailing instructions and for the discussion:

16.1 A boat shall not enter an area designated as an Obstruction when racing – See Appendix A.
16.2 All Traffic Separation Schemes (TSS) are designated as Obstructions.

https://www.rolexfastnetrace.com/downloads/2021_docs/rorc_fastnet_sailing_instructions_web.pdf

I have read and searched the document and nowhere does it say that a boat shall pass an obstruction on the side or keep it to a side as indicated in Appendix B in the notes. It is implied, but there is no explicit text in Appendix B or else where in sailing instructions that you have to keep it to port. You may even well round the rock the other way around. It is implied, but not explicitly written that you should keep it to port.

Might as well have been just have been an advise to sailors.

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3 minutes ago, Arjen said:

From the sailing instructions and for the discussion:


16.1 A boat shall not enter an area designated as an Obstruction when racing – See Appendix A.
16.2 All Traffic Separation Schemes (TSS) are designated as Obstructions.

https://www.rolexfastnetrace.com/downloads/2021_docs/rorc_fastnet_sailing_instructions_web.pdf

I have read and searched the document and nowhere does it say that a boat shall pass an obstruction on the side indicated in Appendix B in the notes. It is implied, but there is no explicit text in Appendix B or else where in sailing instructions that you have to keep it to port. You may even well round the rock the other way around. It is implied, but not explicitly written that you should keep it to port.

Might as well have been an advise to sailors.

By that interpretation, sailing the course is voluntary. The course is defined in the SI, including marks, roundings, TSSs and if to port or starboard. Does the absence of “shall” (if it is absent) mean it is all voluntary, and you could instead sail straight to Cherbourg for the win? I don’t think anyone is going to have any luck selling that.

Salter is a lawyer and all that implies, but even if Rambler was following this far-fetched logic, they wouldn’t have bothered going all the way to the Fastnet rock.

So far, the best explanation appears to be that they screwed the pooch.

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20 minutes ago, Arjen said:

From the sailing instructions and for the discussion:



16.1 A boat shall not enter an area designated as an Obstruction when racing – See Appendix A.
16.2 All Traffic Separation Schemes (TSS) are designated as Obstructions.

https://www.rolexfastnetrace.com/downloads/2021_docs/rorc_fastnet_sailing_instructions_web.pdf

I have read and searched the document and nowhere does it say that a boat shall pass an obstruction on the side indicated in Appendix B in the notes. It is implied, but there is no explicit text in Appendix B or else where in sailing instructions that you have to keep it to port. You may even well round the rock the other way around. It is implied, but not explicitly written that you should keep it to port.

Might as well have been an advise to sailors.

645CC1D6-D79B-44E6-90F6-E0982090A9C3.thumb.jpeg.a6d70040f09aa415aa90863e9213e908.jpeg
RRS:

93FD4F05-F515-4F56-B388-7D705C337FC8.thumb.jpeg.d6abe1272843758fda7fb13c7623f54c.jpeg9C612E26-D961-405D-BF7B-1F97A006E33E.thumb.jpeg.cbfaf76728ce539aaa11e209e4b5d11c.jpeg

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4 minutes ago, mookiesurfs said:

By that interpretation, sailing the course is voluntary.

Well see rule 18

18  FASTNET ROCK ROUNDING TIMES
18.1 Every boat shall record the time (BST) on the Declaration Form when
the Fastnet light bears 180 degrees
magnetic and report it by text message or email.

It is explicitly mentioned in the sailing instructions to round the rock and at least declare the fact that you were exactly north of it.

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20 minutes ago, Arjen said:

From the sailing instructions and for the discussion:


16.1 A boat shall not enter an area designated as an Obstruction when racing – See Appendix A.
16.2 All Traffic Separation Schemes (TSS) are designated as Obstructions.

https://www.rolexfastnetrace.com/downloads/2021_docs/rorc_fastnet_sailing_instructions_web.pdf

I have read and searched the document and nowhere does it say that a boat shall pass an obstruction on the side or keep it to a side as indicated in Appendix B in the notes. It is implied, but there is no explicit text in Appendix B or else where in sailing instructions that you have to keep it to port. You may even well round the rock the other way around. It is implied, but not explicitly written that you should keep it to port.

Might as well have been just have been an advise to sailors.

Did you read the Appendix?

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1 minute ago, Matagi said:

Did you read the Appendix?

I did.

Please notice the absence of a column header for the 3rd column in B2

 

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7 minutes ago, Arjen said:

Is an Obstruction as mentioned in the sailing instructions a Mark?

Replying to myself. I now read that in Appendix B the obstructions are named a Mark.

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It's difficult to tell for sure, but looking at the tracks, it looks like virtually all of the boats took the entire Fastnet TSS to port (although a few seemed to have strayed into it at once rounded).  I can't find another boat that is still competing that took the Fastnet TSS to starboard.

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Just as the official tracker seemed to improve we now have conflict (on pc) between the line hons leaderboard, the Imoca leaderboard and the actual displayed positions! Hopeless! At least LiveShips is working OK. I am loooking at Arkea, Initiatives, Sailing Poland, etc.

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

Skorpios finished!  A great kickoff for this program. 

Pretty impressive to be launched, prepared, and win it especially in these challenging conditions. Hats off to the team behind all this. Yes, it takes lots of money, but you still need the best people performing at the absolute top of their game to achieve the goal.

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1 minute ago, Irrational 14 said:

Pretty impressive to be launched, prepared, and win it especially in these challenging conditions. Hats off to the team behind all this. Yes, it takes lots of money, but you still need the best people performing at the absolute top of their game to achieve the goal.

Indeed.  And they took the Fastnet TSS to port....

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2 minutes ago, Irrational 14 said:

Pretty impressive to be launched, prepared, and win it especially in these challenging conditions.

It’s 42% larger than the nearest competitor in an upwind & reaching race where waterline dominates.  As long as they didn’t break anything — and sail the course — they should place well or 1st.

 

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This, and being humiliated by a boat half it’s size with just two crew (on the top of their game and c/w AP).

Certainly hats off to the team behind it, incl. Juan K, and the crew sailing it, who are mostly over the top of their game, btw...

But experience count more on these monsters.

Most important, the owner will be happy, and ready to continue his much appreciated charity. And who knows, others might join in, 2 or 3 would be more fun.

 

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17 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

This, and being humiliated by a boat half it’s size with just two crew (on the top of their game and c/w AP).

Certainly hats off to the team behind it, incl. Juan K, and the crew sailing it, who are mostly over the top of their game, btw...

But experience count more on these monsters.

Most important, the owner will be happy, and ready to continue his much appreciated charity. And who knows, others might join in, 2 or 3 would be more fun.

 

Not too cynical then………..

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9 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Not too cynical then………..

Not really, and this is Sailing Angerchy you know.

And I give credit where credit is due, for what that is worth...

 

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2 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Not really, and this is Sailing Angergy you know.

And I give credit where credit is due, for what that is worth...

 

Haha. Most definitely not Sailing Niceynice!

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3 hours ago, jimmyuk81 said:

Would be an embarrassing fuckup for a tailender in IRC4, ..........

Tut, tut, tut ........ tailender IRC4 boats matter :o

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Should be an interesting finish between Apivia and Rambler, Apivia gone south of the TSS shorter distance more tide in their favour for the moment but possibly less wind.  Rambler north of the TSS longer distance a little less tide, but more wind?

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3 hours ago, Reference said:

Might as well go all in, and just finish at Plymouth.  Claim the win for the "real" Fastnet

 

I think you will find this is The Fastnet for 2021 so therefore is this year’s “real” Fastnet

Sometimes tradition needs a shake up and many time the outcomes are much better. 

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Is Scorpios the new Comanche? Time will tell. I am glad that there are billionaires who can fulfil their dreams so that we can share in them :-)

 

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Just a hunch, but I don’t really think Scorpios was pushed that hard on her first time out…

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1 hour ago, frozenhawaiian said:

I'm really curious to see what takeaways the crew has after this first race. 

Coffee and croissants, or beer and pizza?

 

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8 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

Coffee and croissants, or beer and pizza?

 

Beer and Pizza?

You mean Wine and Fruit de Mer!

Or Champagne and Lobster for some...

Not takeaways, but being served by Jolie Filles.

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18 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Beer and Pizza?

You mean Wine and Fruit de Mer!

Or Champagne and Lobster for some...

Brings back happy fruits de mer memories of 40 years ago. First “date”with my (still) wife was doing the delivery trip from Cherbourg after a RORC race…..

 

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2 hours ago, ttc546 said:

Just a hunch, but I don’t really think Scorpios was pushed that hard on her first time out…

you're probably right. boat has been in the water less than a month. boss would be pretty pissed if you broke his new toy the first time out. 

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1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

Brings back happy fruits de mer memories of 40 years ago. First “date”with my (still) wife was doing the delivery trip from Cherbourg after a RORC race…..

Congrats to your wife, well done. When my Ex married a French Vaginator my mates were teasing me with a lunch cut, but I explained that I was simply recycling her...

 Anyways, back on subject, a classic and disgusting French food film is this one, bet you know it. 

Here the long version for the gourmets:

https://youtu.be/GKwUTBB-GG4

 

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24 minutes ago, Thisnametaken said:

Gotta say Rambler looks like they pull off a nice move there at the end.

Capture.PNG

Agreed. They seem to be playing the currents more aggressively-differently than their competition.

Still remains to be seen if they know left port from starboard.

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Having never done a Fastnet, or even sailed in the area, seeing the TSS block off Lands End there seems to be a huge wall in the course. Is this just to avoid shipping turning the corner or is there something else in the area they are trying to keep boats away from?

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8 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

Having never done a Fastnet, or even sailed in the area, seeing the TSS block off Lands End there seems to be a huge wall in the course. Is this just to avoid shipping turning the corner or is there something else in the area they are trying to keep boats away from?

Yes, it's one of several traffic separation areas that must be avoided.  Rather simpler back in the old days (I did eleven of these things) as all you had to do was to dodge rocks.  And ships of course.

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19 minutes ago, Jethrow said:

Having never done a Fastnet, or even sailed in the area, seeing the TSS block off Lands End there seems to be a huge wall in the course. Is this just to avoid shipping turning the corner or is there something else in the area they are trying to keep boats away from?

May be because of this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-39197075

Screenshot_20210811-140020.thumb.png.7f82275b62dd45cf9c5c65ae6c433f56.png

The story was that the Captain took the distance/miles off from a chart laying under the top one, bloody paper charts...

 

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Just to pile on, “line honors” means “first to finish.”  That goes to a small bunch of hotshot French sailors on a fast as hell trimaran.  The Scorpion folks are “first to finish if yu don’t count any of the other boats we don’t want to count.”

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On 8/9/2021 at 4:42 AM, Roleur said:

Watched them shortly after the start.  They were directly behind HB and abeam to weather of Charal.  They put the bow down 10 degrees and started going 5 knots faster.  Within a few minutes they were well ahead to leeward of HB and many boat lengths directly in front of Charal.  It was very clearly a different mode.  

Saw that. Bloody quick.

Screen Shot 2021-08-09 at 12.12.13 PM.png

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32 minutes ago, DamnSkippy said:

Rambler 3miles to the finish…… waiting to see how RORC and better yet the internet scores it.

It will be really interesting to see what the Race Committee do now with Rambler since it appears they sailed the wrong course?

Or does it take a protest from another competitor?

Maybe the Rambler Navigator knows something we don't but every other boat seems to be keeping the Fastnet TSS to port. 

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4 minutes ago, The great unwashed said:

Just to pile on, ...

Line horrors goes to a multi , line honours to a proper yaaht...

But amazing performance by the Froggies nevertheless!

 

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2 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

But amazing performance by the Froggies nevertheless!

Nobody does it better, FB - on the dark side anyway. ;-)

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Varuna the Ker56 winning IRC Overall at the moment with around 100 miles to go. This is an impressive boat, extreme design and the team well sailed. Waiting to see what happens with Rambler. Skorpios finished some 8 hours ahead of her. 

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26 minutes ago, Frogman56 said:

Is it possible HB still worried about fragility?

Did not look anything like full press in the early upwind?

Could it be that HB needs to finish a race and not get another  DNF ? 

 

With the costs of these boats and sponsors wanting their pound of flesh, Alex may need to finish this race for funding and contract reasons. 

 

Anyway pushing the boats to there limits in boat breaking conditions at the start wasn't a good option.

 

Pulpit

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42 minutes ago, Ripple Rider said:

It will be really interesting to see what the Race Committee do now with Rambler since it appears they sailed the wrong course?

Or does it take a protest from another competitor?

Maybe the Rambler Navigator knows something we don't but every other boat seems to be keeping the Fastnet TSS to port. 

As I said before. Wish I was a fly on the wall when they find out. IMO they didn’t sail the course so never finished unless they go unwind the string. And again, I agree I said there may be something we don’t know. But.... No one else has done the same. 

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1 hour ago, Autonomous said:
1 hour ago, Thisnametaken said:

Gotta say Rambler looks like they pull off a nice move there at the end.

Capture.PNG

Expand  

Agreed. They seem to be playing the currents more aggressively-differently than their competition.

Best to be placed uptide of the finish line for the final approach, especially in a light/dying breeze. In this case, with an (increasing) ebb tidal current you can’t do that, so the next best thing is to get/stay further out, in less tide and slightly more wind, to get enough easting, so that you can get a good lee bow angle into the finish. Which is what Rambler did. Apivia, being inshore had no choice due to the TSS zone, but to plug straight into a stronger ebb for longer in slightly less wind, until they had made enough easting to do the same. If it had been a flood tide finish, Apivia should have beaten Rambler comfortably.

FWIW (to my own cost in many races races around there), normally, no one is more “aggressive” regarding tidal tactics than the French. And they usually get it right.

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1 hour ago, The great unwashed said:

Just to pile on, “line honors” means “first to finish.”  That goes to a small bunch of hotshot French sailors on a fast as hell trimaran.  The Scorpion folks are “first to finish if yu don’t count any of the other boats we don’t want to count.”

There's always been Mono and Multi's where have you been FFS.? :D

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9 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

I doubt the Race Committee check every boats track so who is going to bring it the Committees attention.? 

Whilst I generally agree with this comment, especially for such a big fleet as the Fastnet I am sure the committee have time to check the track of one of the marquee boats.

What else have they got to do at the moment with the vast majority of the fleet still miles away? 

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2 minutes ago, Ripple Rider said:

Whilst I generally agree with this comment, especially for such a big fleet as the Fastnet I am sure the committee have time to check the track of one of the marquee boats.

What else have they got to do at the moment with the vast majority of the fleet still miles away? 

Let's see what happens then.? 

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8 hours ago, ttc546 said:

Is Scorpios the new Comanche? Time will tell. I am glad that there are billionaires who can fulfil their dreams so that we can share in them :-)

 

I disagree. I wish the billionaires would stick to aspects of sailing that need billions like Americas cup or provide some funding down to the wider sport. To me there is too much focus on these big boats - where there is no real sailing competition, merely a race to build the biggest and fastest. They get all the attention for what is barely more than a sprint and take it away from where I think the real sailing is - down in IRC2,3,4. Where it will have been more uncomfortable, longer but the competition much harder.

Coffee makers? We don't need no stinking coffee makers

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Thats fine - stick with IRC 2,3,4 whilst I, and many others, will continue to drool over the big boys toys as well as watch and appreciate IRC 2,3,4. There is room for everybody :-)

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I enjoy seeing boats like Rambler and Scorpios competing. Owners may be mega rich and are probably having fun but for me they are not very relevant in high end professional sailing/racing. Imoca 60 is where its at where the best real sailors actually want to be, and Figaro is where you prove you can sail. Those two classes are what I see as the real ocean racers.

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24 minutes ago, staysail said:

I enjoy seeing boats like Rambler and Scorpios competing. Owners may be mega rich and are probably having fun but for me they are not very relevant in high end professional sailing/racing. Imoca 60 is where its at where the best real sailors actually want to be, and Figaro is where you prove you can sail. Those two classes are what I see as the real ocean racers.

It was amusing to see the swan thread get real quiet when Charlie and Paul were ontop of Skorpios. :lol:

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37 minutes ago, staysail said:

I enjoy seeing boats like Rambler and Scorpios competing. Owners may be mega rich and are probably having fun but for me they are not very relevant in high end professional sailing/racing. Imoca 60 is where its at where the best real sailors actually want to be, and Figaro is where you prove you can sail. Those two classes are what I see as the real ocean racers.

I'd completely agree with that, but for neither of those groups is the Fastnet anything more than a side show. To me the Fastnet is about IRC 2,3,4 as i said

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

I disagree. I wish the billionaires would stick to aspects of sailing that need billions like Americas cup or provide some funding down to the wider sport. To me there is too much focus on these big boats - where there is no real sailing competition, merely a race to build the biggest and fastest. They get all the attention for what is barely more than a sprint and take it away from where I think the real sailing is - down in IRC2,3,4. Where it will have been more uncomfortable, longer but the competition much harder.

Coffee makers? We don't need no stinking coffee makers

That's why we have handicap and line honors.! Nothing wrong with bigger boats. 

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20 minutes ago, TPG said:

It was amusing to see the swan thread get real quiet when Charlie and Paul were ontop of Skorpios. :lol:

I disagree. Apivia was foiling when they kept pace with Skorpios. There is nothing that would keep up with Apivia in foiling conditions in an ocean race. As soon as Apivia couldn't foil she got blown away by Skorpios. She finished over 8 hours later. Horses for courses, Apivia is a F1 single handed foiling machine, Skorpios is a big boat just like Comanche or Wild Oats etc. 

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2 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

That's why we have handicap and line honors.! Nothing wrong with bigger boats. 

No, but a sailing competition it is not.

And I found the commentary on the starting video somewhat patronising. Lots of drooling over the big boats and then comments like "the small boats get better value for money because it will take them longer to finish". Despite the fact that at last one of the commentators has never done it on anything bigger than a 3/4 tonner 

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

I disagree. I wish the billionaires would stick to aspects of sailing that need billions like Americas cup or provide some funding down to the wider sport. To me there is too much focus on these big boats - where there is no real sailing competition, merely a race to build the biggest and fastest. They get all the attention for what is barely more than a sprint and take it away from where I think the real sailing is - down in IRC2,3,4. Where it will have been more uncomfortable, longer but the competition much harder.

Coffee makers? We don't need no stinking coffee makers

Stick to the Americas Cup did you say.! That is absurd. The Americas Cup is for the elite of the elite class requiring billions. They are free to do what they want and thats why we have line honors and handicap. It works as it is, really unless you mean you don't like the bigger boats getting all the attention? 

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

No, but a sailing competition it is not.

And I found the commentary on the starting video somewhat patronising. Lots of drooling over the big boats and then comments like "the small boats get better value for money because it will take them longer to finish". Despite the fact that at last one of the commentators has never done it on anything bigger than a 3/4 tonner 

There will always be drooling over new boats.! There's drooling over pretty girls too.! Come-on you can do better than that surely.! :D

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5 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

No, but a sailing competition it is not.

And I found the commentary on the starting video somewhat patronising. Lots of drooling over the big boats and then comments like "the small boats get better value for money because it will take them longer to finish". Despite the fact that at last one of the commentators has never done it on anything bigger than a 3/4 tonner 

Matthew Sheahan was onboard Grimalkin in the 1979 tragedy as a young man. He lost his father in that race.

 

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1 minute ago, terrafirma said:

Stick to the Americas Cup did you say.! That is absurd. The Americas Cup is for the elite of the elite class requiring billions. They are free to do what they want and thats why we have line honors and handicap. It works as it is, really unless you mean you don't like the bigger boats getting all the attention? 

Of course they are free to do what they want. All I said was that there was too much focus on them. 

 

Just now, terrafirma said:

There will always be drooling over new boats.! There's drooling over pretty girls too.! Come-on you can do better than that surely.! :D

Yes, I have no problem with that (though I don't think Skorpios is an especially attractive boat). But there are new boats in the smaller classes too

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18 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

No, but a sailing competition it is not.

 

Oh, I don't know about that. Skorpios is currently projected at 29th Overall (was 18th a few hours ago) and likely to sink further as we get more finishers

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24 minutes ago, terrafirma said:

I disagree. Apivia was foiling when they kept pace with Skorpios. There is nothing that would keep up with Apivia in foiling conditions in an ocean race. As soon as Apivia couldn't foil she got blown away by Skorpios. She finished over 8 hours later. Horses for courses, Apivia is a F1 single handed foiling machine, Skorpios is a big boat just like Comanche or Wild Oats etc. 

Is that going to be the excuse going forward? BuT iTs FoiLiNg! 

If that's what lets you sleep at night.

Let's all breath a sigh of relief for the crew of Skorpios that the wind died. It could have been polonium cocktails for everyone if it hadn't.

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10 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Matthew Sheahan was onboard Grimalkin in the 1979 tragedy as a young man. He lost his father in that race.

 

Yeah - and unlike some of the critics on this thread has actually done some serious offshore sailing 

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1 minute ago, shanghaisailor said:

Oh, I don't know about that. Skorpios is currently projected at 29th Overall (was 18th a few hours ago) and likely to sink further as we get more finishers

Handicap honours between the smaller classes and something like Skorpios is entirely about who gets the better wind (and tide)

 

1 minute ago, shanghaisailor said:

Yeah - and unlike some of the critics on this thread has actually done some serious offshore sailing 

If that was aimed at me I can assure you I have done some serious offshore sailing. I have it is true retired from serious competition now but I have done the Fastnet and longer

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13 minutes ago, staysail said:

Awful official tracker. Arkea vanished at 6 o'clock last night and so presumably the leaderboard for line hons and Imoca is wrong and no action to fix it?

Looks like 11hr was third and from the video on their Twitter account a boat behind them can be seen. Probably arkea 

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8 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

Oh, I don't know about that. Skorpios is currently projected at 29th Overall (was 18th a few hours ago) and likely to sink further as we get more finishers

The tracker shows Skorpios as still sailing and was Rambler even though they had finished suspect it's tracking them on their way home and still recording time perhaps.? 

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