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For Hamble/Warsash/Cowes round-the-cans and RORC Offshore weekends, and perhaps some leisure sailing to Guernsey, Scillys or Ile de Re - but mainly for racing without the benefit of a full crew - which do you recommend, a Sunfast3200 or a J/105?

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Have been crewing (trimmer) for J105's lately but am new to the class. Others are much better experts than I. J105 seems like a 4-crew boat to run effectively if you are planning on hoisting a downwind sail.  Driver, mainsheet trimmer, sheet / pit and bow almost at a minimum although I'm sure others have figured out methods for double handing. Also I'm not sure how many J105's have an auto pilot installed. 

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3 hours ago, wannabeeskipper said:

For Hamble/Warsash/Cowes round-the-cans and RORC Offshore weekends, and perhaps some leisure sailing to Guernsey, Scillys or Ile de Re - but mainly for racing without the benefit of a full crew - which do you recommend, a Sunfast3200 or a J/105?

Can’t help with the SF3200 but we had 5 105’s entered in the last couple of Chicago-Mackinac Challenges. 333 miles.

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Either is a decent choice, for the same budget you probably get a good 105 or a 3200 that hasn't been raced / needs new sails etc. I can only think of 2 105s left racing in the Solent (Mostly Harmless, Juliette, others?) whereas there are a lot more 3200s and some (Cora) challenge for the chocolates under IRC.

EU 105s are all wheel steered (except Voador IIRC), slight pain for 2H but people have made it work. Slightly more space in the pit for a full crew of 4-5 than a 3200 though.

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10 hours ago, Snowden said:

Either is a decent choice, for the same budget you probably get a good 105 or a 3200 that hasn't been raced / needs new sails etc. I can only think of 2 105s left racing in the Solent (Mostly Harmless, Juliette, others?) whereas there are a lot more 3200s and some (Cora) challenge for the chocolates under IRC.

EU 105s are all wheel steered (except Voador IIRC), slight pain for 2H but people have made it work. Slightly more space in the pit for a full crew of 4-5 than a 3200 though.

5 105s entered for Cowes.

Mostly Harmless, Jacana, Jos of Hamble, Flawless J and Gene Genie. 

Jacana have been on good form this season, and Jos are always quick.  Not come across Gene Genie before.  Looking at their rating I wonder if they're not using a masthead kite.  3 3200s entered and they'll all be in the same class.  Should at least provide interesting data for the OP...    

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14 hours ago, Flaming said:

5 105s entered for Cowes.

Mostly Harmless, Jacana, Jos of Hamble, Flawless J and Gene Genie. 

Jacana have been on good form this season, and Jos are always quick.  Not come across Gene Genie before.  Looking at their rating I wonder if they're not using a masthead kite.  3 3200s entered and they'll all be in the same class.  Should at least provide interesting data for the OP...    

 

15 hours ago, WANDERLUST said:

https://youtube.com/shorts/35AW2uPky1k?feature=share
 

that my J105. Incredible for solo and double.

Mine is optimized also for ORC

CA719BC6-02FB-41E1-84F7-0C39C520935C.png

15D51585-A4E9-4483-97F4-58553CEB799F.png

B9CFF16B-F545-41DF-9905-75943EBAB67C.jpeg

Lovely looking, well kept boat!

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On 7/22/2021 at 11:34 PM, Snowden said:

Either is a decent choice, for the same budget you probably get a good 105 or a 3200 that hasn't been raced / needs new sails etc. I can only think of 2 105s left racing in the Solent (Mostly Harmless, Juliette, others?) whereas there are a lot more 3200s and some (Cora) challenge for the chocolates under IRC.

EU 105s are all wheel steered (except Voador IIRC), slight pain for 2H but people have made it work. Slightly more space in the pit for a full crew of 4-5 than a 3200 though.

Yes, I hadn't thought about the wheel being a problem, but you are probably right.

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14 hours ago, Flaming said:

5 105s entered for Cowes.

Mostly Harmless, Jacana, Jos of Hamble, Flawless J and Gene Genie. 

Jacana have been on good form this season, and Jos are always quick.  Not come across Gene Genie before.  Looking at their rating I wonder if they're not using a masthead kite.  3 3200s entered and they'll all be in the same class.  Should at least provide interesting data for the OP...    

Yep, some pretty well sailed 105s out there - I was impressed by Rum & Cork (Lymington I think). And I saw Flawless when she came on to the market a couple of years ago - looked really good.

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Both great boats. I think a basic 3200 is a better boat than a basic 105 however. If I looked down the 105 route I would seriously consider changing the furling headstay for just a hank on setup. I have no idea how complex it would be but I would seriously look at converting the wheel steering to tiller steering, I’ve been told by someone before that it’s not ‘too’ complicated to do. Make sure it’s got the best hull finish you can afford. I’d consider fairing in the prop shaft under the water and I’d make sure there’s a comprehensive reaching and downwind sail inventory. If I was looking to do any sort of cruising I would abandon the 105 idea immediately! The 3200s are cracking boats and the R2 version even more refined for racing

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On 7/24/2021 at 1:12 AM, JL92S said:

Both great boats. I think a basic 3200 is a better boat than a basic 105 however. If I looked down the 105 route I would seriously consider changing the furling headstay for just a hank on setup. I have no idea how complex it would be but I would seriously look at converting the wheel steering to tiller steering, I’ve been told by someone before that it’s not ‘too’ complicated to do. Make sure it’s got the best hull finish you can afford. I’d consider fairing in the prop shaft under the water and I’d make sure there’s a comprehensive reaching and downwind sail inventory. If I was looking to do any sort of cruising I would abandon the 105 idea immediately! The 3200s are cracking boats and the R2 version even more refined for racing

Hmm, I am being swayed to the 3200

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15 hours ago, wannabeeskipper said:

Hmm, I am being swayed to the 3200

I would absolutely go down the J105 route. But that's because there is 1 unimpressive 3200 sailing here.

But if you had a whole bunch of 3200's to race against, I would go for it.

Also depends on all the other factors you are looking for.

J105 probably better boat to windward and running, 3200 better for reaching.

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I have owned and sailed both the standard 3200 and the R2 version, and done plenty of racing in them against the 105. Overall they are fairly evenly matched against the 105 on performance. I have recently enjoyed sailing a J105 from Hamble to Scotland. Both great boats. The 3200 is Symmetric, although some have sprouted poles, and the J105 is Asymmetric, so either will have its day against the other depending on the downwind angles and current. In under 10 knots the 105 is quicker (except in flat water when the 3200 ain't bad), 10-15 knots evenly matched, over 15 knots the 3200 usually wins unless you get the perfect A-Sail angle. The 105 is much tipper and needs reefing earlier. The 3200 is way more comfortable and dryer offshore. The 105 is an incredibly wet boat to live on, and lacks headroom. The nav station and galley are more user friendly on the 3200. The R2 version of the 3200 has the edge.

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14 hours ago, Fastrak said:

I have owned and sailed both the standard 3200 and the R2 version, and done plenty of racing in them against the 105. Overall they are fairly evenly matched against the 105 on performance. I have recently enjoyed sailing a J105 from Hamble to Scotland. Both great boats. The 3200 is Symmetric, although some have sprouted poles, and the J105 is Asymmetric, so either will have its day against the other depending on the downwind angles and current. In under 10 knots the 105 is quicker (except in flat water when the 3200 ain't bad), 10-15 knots evenly matched, over 15 knots the 3200 usually wins unless you get the perfect A-Sail angle. The 105 is much tipper and needs reefing earlier. The 3200 is way more comfortable and dryer offshore. The 105 is an incredibly wet boat to live on, and lacks headroom. The nav station and galley are more user friendly on the 3200. The R2 version of the 3200 has the edge.

Great information. Thank you. Yes, was thinking about the Nav station and galley area. The 105 looks like you would not want to spend very long there - particularly if the 105 is a less stable boat anyway.

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18 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Isn't a 3200 almost double the price?  If you have the budget for the boat and racing sails of course it is better.

It looks like a well-sorted 105 is within £10k - £15k of a used, older 3200 version 1. The 105 is a great boat, so figuring out whether the extra £10k+ is worth spending.

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27 minutes ago, wannabeeskipper said:

It looks like a well-sorted 105 is within £10k - £15k of a used, older 3200 version 1. The 105 is a great boat, so figuring out whether the extra £10k+ is worth spending.

"Well-sorted" is worth a lot when buying 10+ year old boats. If you are a comparing a 105 that has recently been raced offshore with a 3200 that hasn't, you might easily identify another £10k of "stuff" that the 3200 needs to get it race ready.

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  • 2 weeks later...

A successful SORC 3200 owner (Fluke?) went through the same process, and thought it would be a good idea to use the proceeds of his SF3200 sale to buy and refit a J/105 for the same program. It turned out to be a bad idea both in terms of budget and competitiveness.

Two nice boats but not from the same era. I fnd the 3200 fugly but it's a better boat allround.

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How well can the SF3200 sail to it's rating? A local SF3600 that I know has a very difficult phrf rating to sail to.  J105s, or any J/Boat, seem able to hit their ratings pretty easily. 

 

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I posted this over in the Fastnet thread.

Snapshot, of course.

---

Some fun with numbers:

So overall, the most succesful 'class' / design in this Fastnet were the SF 3200, with an average place of 43. They are also one of the most consitent fleets, with a standard deviation of 15, so the odds of achieving a Top 1/3rd place with a SF 3200 are very good. 

Very interesting to see the consistency of each Sun Fast group (but samples size is too small to really gauge sth. from there).

The JPK designs (all) -as mentioned- show far more deviation, the 1180 ranges from 1st place to 133rd, which is almost last of the finishers. Average place 'only' 48th.

X-Yachts (only very few) show an average place of 76,6, which is not really ok for performance boats, showing in my view a) their age and b) that they are not really good IRC boats. But it's a small sample.

First 40 and  40.7: consistently poor, average 95, first came 72nd, and a large chunk of them is down there, so we see a small deviation (relatively large sample).

Fun Fact: A First Class 10 placed 18th in 4days 21hrs, beating the first 40.7 by an hour ON SAILED TIME! Even a Dehler 33 cruising beat the first 40.7 by 12 minutes on sailed time.

Volvos astonishingly poor, no pick for a win here, seems like a sandwich position to me: too large for a chance in corrected time, too small for a shot at the line honours.

fastnet.thumb.jpg.fa121ffe99f8ef5f6b6ce594c15cae18.jpg

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2 hours ago, Matagi said:

I posted this over in the Fastnet thread.

Snapshot, of course.

---

Some fun with numbers:

So overall, the most succesful 'class' / design in this Fastnet were the SF 3200, with an average place of 43. They are also one of the most consitent fleets, with a standard deviation of 15, so the odds of achieving a Top 1/3rd place with a SF 3200 are very good. 

Very interesting to see the consistency of each Sun Fast group (but samples size is too small to really gauge sth. from there).

The JPK designs (all) -as mentioned- show far more deviation, the 1180 ranges from 1st place to 133rd, which is almost last of the finishers. Average place 'only' 48th.

X-Yachts (only very few) show an average place of 76,6, which is not really ok for performance boats, showing in my view a) their age and b) that they are not really good IRC boats. But it's a small sample.

First 40 and  40.7: consistently poor, average 95, first came 72nd, and a large chunk of them is down there, so we see a small deviation (relatively large sample).

Fun Fact: A First Class 10 placed 18th in 4days 21hrs, beating the first 40.7 by an hour ON SAILED TIME! Even a Dehler 33 cruising beat the first 40.7 by 12 minutes on sailed time.

Volvos astonishingly poor, no pick for a win here, seems like a sandwich position to me: too large for a chance in corrected time, too small for a shot at the line honours.

fastnet.thumb.jpg.fa121ffe99f8ef5f6b6ce594c15cae18.jpg

I wonder what your stats would look like if you exclude last lot of finishers. I.e. excluding boats with problems and uncompetitive crews. It may give a more realistic comparison. 
 

I’m sure if I did fastnet on my SF3200 I would unfairly ruin their overall result.

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On 8/15/2021 at 10:34 AM, Matagi said:

First 40 and  40.7: consistently poor, average 95, first came 72nd, and a large chunk of them is down there, so we see a small deviation (relatively large sample).

About half of the First 40s (the ones rating in the 1.030s) are the detuned ex Sunsail boats (small keels to get into Port Solent etc), sold cheaply into private hands after 15+ years of unsympathetic race charter usage. Similarly with the 40.7s, lots are run by pay-to-sail Fastnet experience companies so I don't think those results tell you much about how well the boats sail to their ratings.

If you look at Pen Koent or the old La Reponse you will see that these designs can be competitive in the right hands.

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On 8/15/2021 at 12:34 PM, Matagi said:

Volvos astonishingly poor, no pick for a win here, seems like a sandwich position to me: too large for a chance in corrected time, too small for a shot at the line honours.

What Volvo boats is he talking about?

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13 hours ago, Matagi said:

'He' is talking about all of them.

Sorry, didnt mean to disrespect, what volvos are you talking about exactly? like VOR70 or there were smaller ones?

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On 8/17/2021 at 1:50 AM, pironiero said:

Sorry, didnt mean to disrespect, what volvos are you talking about exactly? like VOR70 or there were smaller ones?

The original VOR boats were 60 feet (starting in '93), then there was a move to the VOR 70s in 2005, and finally they moved to the One Design VOR 65s in 2014.

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4 hours ago, sam_crocker said:

The original VOR boats were 60 feet (starting in '93), then there was a move to the VOR 70s in 2005, and finally they moved to the One Design VOR 65s in 2014.

Oh, i thought at some point there was some Volvos in 30-34 ft range

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On 8/15/2021 at 10:34 AM, Matagi said:

I posted this over in the Fastnet thread.

Snapshot, of course.

---

Some fun with numbers:

So overall, the most succesful 'class' / design in this Fastnet were the SF 3200, with an average place of 43. They are also one of the most consitent fleets, with a standard deviation of 15, so the odds of achieving a Top 1/3rd place with a SF 3200 are very good. 

Very interesting to see the consistency of each Sun Fast group (but samples size is too small to really gauge sth. from there).

The JPK designs (all) -as mentioned- show far more deviation, the 1180 ranges from 1st place to 133rd, which is almost last of the finishers. Average place 'only' 48th.

X-Yachts (only very few) show an average place of 76,6, which is not really ok for performance boats, showing in my view a) their age and b) that they are not really good IRC boats. But it's a small sample.

First 40 and  40.7: consistently poor, average 95, first came 72nd, and a large chunk of them is down there, so we see a small deviation (relatively large sample).

Fun Fact: A First Class 10 placed 18th in 4days 21hrs, beating the first 40.7 by an hour ON SAILED TIME! Even a Dehler 33 cruising beat the first 40.7 by 12 minutes on sailed time.

Volvos astonishingly poor, no pick for a win here, seems like a sandwich position to me: too large for a chance in corrected time, too small for a shot at the line honours.

fastnet.thumb.jpg.fa121ffe99f8ef5f6b6ce594c15cae18.jpg

Yes, the 3200s did amazingly well, particularly when one factors in the rock stars sailing the 3300, 3600 and the J/99s. I was looking into it myself and discovered this:

image.png.35e0f866f85a8366aa9ee63a27d74c47.png

and this

image.png.231b610e55f831fba2bea97b6d5c4b23.png 

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On 8/16/2021 at 2:54 PM, Snowden said:

About half of the First 40s (the ones rating in the 1.030s) are the detuned ex Sunsail boats (small keels to get into Port Solent etc), sold cheaply into private hands after 15+ years of unsympathetic race charter usage. Similarly with the 40.7s, lots are run by pay-to-sail Fastnet experience companies so I don't think those results tell you much about how well the boats sail to their ratings.

If you look at Pen Koent or the old La Reponse you will see that these designs can be competitive in the right hands.

I am not sure about the ex-sunsail boat numbers (who would be mad enough to compete with one of those?!) but totally agree that the First40s and 40.7 tend to be 'school' boats. I have sailed the First 40 CR on the fatsnet (with a school) and think they are great boats actually - 'our' First 40CR was really quite fast when properly trimmed and with the right sails up (the full race version, not the sunsail one). They do need a large crew to sail competitively, but I reckon they would score much better if sailed by properly focused crews.

We carried a very full sail-suite, with a terrific Jib Top and code zero, I wonder whether the lower rated 40s may have a reduced sail set? (I am not an IRC expert!)

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  • 3 weeks later...

I owned a 105 from 2004 to 2010 and raced it a lot offshore double handed as well as with crew in UK and French one design and passage racing. After I sold it (a mistake !) I priced up a 3200 having seen them at their launch regatta in La Trinite Spi Ouest … stupidly I bought a 109 instead.

 

You can buy a decent 105 ready for short handed offshore for £60k, a similar 3200 will cost £80k at least … this is due to a variety of factors but mostly the strong track record of the 3200. Back in early 2000’s the 105 was the boat of choice for offshore double handed, then the JPK and particularly 3200 took over and Juneau and JPK dominate today. The 105 does a pretty good job considering it was designed as an inshore OD class. The 3200 from the get go with solo and double handed long distance offshore in mind.
 

wannabe I live in Hamble if you want to discuss further.

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On 8/19/2021 at 10:22 AM, pironiero said:

Oh, i thought at some point there was some Volvos in 30-34 ft range

There was an offshore water-ballasted box class "Whitbread 30" (later "Mount Gay 30"). I can't remember the history but it wasn't intended to do the RtW race. Like every proposed 30' box rule, people thought it would draw back the kind of owners who once upon a time commissioned half-tonners in profusion but it didn't. 

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4 hours ago, dogwatch said:

There was an offshore water-ballasted box class "Whitbread 30" (later "Mount Gay 30"). I can't remember the history but it wasn't intended to do the RtW race. Like every proposed 30' box rule, people thought it would draw back the kind of owners who once upon a time commissioned half-tonners in profusion but it didn't. 

Price Reduced! – Sail Northwest

oh, this looks like a good semi-cruiser racer candidate

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15 hours ago, dogwatch said:

There was an offshore water-ballasted box class "Whitbread 30" (later "Mount Gay 30"). I can't remember the history but it wasn't intended to do the RtW race. Like every proposed 30' box rule, people thought it would draw back the kind of owners who once upon a time commissioned half-tonners in profusion but it didn't. 

Discussed here - https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/225177-mount-gay-30-vs-open-30/&do=findComment&comment=7552059

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