J/29 Pointing Problems

[Jib Beam 5]

Having issues with getting my 1983 FR J29 to point.  Mast moved aft all the way.  Forestay is almost at max length.  Cant seem to point greater than 45 degrees and local boats are beating us to the mark.  Wind is normally 6-10 and water smooth.

 

[BobbyZ 0]

How far off the speader is your gennie?  You could have too much sag in the forestay.

[Jib Beam 5]

Genoa is a 150 and about 8" off spreader.  There is lots of slop in the forestay.   I used the R Johnstone set-up per J-Boats to try to get mast rake 13" behind base of mast on sea hood.

[BobbyZ 0]

My genoa is two inches off the spreader when I'm closehauled (the No.2 is right on the spread. Can't you get it in closer?

 

[port tack 16]

Trim more.  8 inches is way way too far.  Tighten headstay and put on back stay

[sailman 412]

Use your cap shrouds to get more headstay tension

[BobbyZ 0]

If you tighten the cap shrouds won't the mast bend loosen the forestay on Frac? 

I think you could loosen the cap shrouds and tighten the lowers -- but if the rig is tuned as per Jib Beam's photo then I would focus on just getting the jib sheeted in first.  

[sailman 412]

13 minutes ago, BobbyZ said:

If you tighten the cap shrouds won't the mast bend loosen the forestay on Frac? 

I think you could loosen the cap shrouds and tighten the lowers -- but if the rig is tuned as per Jib Beam's photo then I would focus on just getting the jib sheeted in first.  

Correct Genoa trim is important but if the headstay has 6-8” of sag you will not point.  The cap shrouds are at the headstay and will tighten it, your example is backstay tension.  Depending on the luff curve of the main, lowers may have to be taken up as well.  Who is the sailmaker?

[Jib Beam 5]

North is the Genoa Sail Maker and it is one year old.   Have about 1" total thread showing on I.D. of the Headstay turnbuckle.

Upper Shroud Tension is 34 and Lower shroud is 31 on my Loos gauge.

[Crash 1,008]

Take some slop out of the foreguy.  If you have rake and shrouds set per tuning guide, and still have a bunch of slop in the forestay, you have too much forestay.  tighten headstay to have only a little slop, and genny 2 inches or so off shrouds...

[sailman 412]

Check your North Rep for a tuning guide.  Here is the class guide:  http://www.j29class.net/tuning.htm

[Notquitecapnron 50]

This is from fall of last year in 11-13knots.  Not sure if you have done anything to your rig since then.   Your genny often looks under trimmed to us.  

Hope this helps.  Love to see you in our fleet someday soon.

[Bump-n-Grind 2,676]

genoa looks way too far out, but could be eased to duck that port tacker.. i'm more of a 35 guy but our genoa gets trimmed in foot to shroud base, then car adjustment to equalize distance from spreaders. the cars are not set and forget on any of these boats. 

@sailman how different is the 29 Frac to a J30 when it comes to rig tune and sail adjustment?

[sailman 412]

4 hours ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

genoa looks way too far out, but could be eased to duck that port tacker.. i'm more of a 35 guy but our genoa gets trimmed in foot to shroud base, then car adjustment to equalize distance from spreaders. the cars are not set and forget on any of these boats. 

@sailman how different is the 29 Frac to a J30 when it comes to rig tune and sail adjustment?

It is the same rig.  The J29 is lighter and has a different keel, rudder is the same I think.  You can probably start with a J30 rig tune and go from there.  In the picture posted if they are trying to go upwind in that picture they are doing it wrong.

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

Been a while, so I don't remember rig tune, but I can tell you what sail trim worked for us in those conditions: using a 155:

Backstay- at 6 kns, pretty much off, just enough to stop bouncing in the swell. FS Sag about 4"?; at 10 knts, backstay at about 60%.

Mainsheet, Traveler, and Outhaul- at 6, traveler will be above center, boom on center, mainsheet and outhaul eased to give significant depth. Top main tell tail flowing @100%. In 0-5 knts, maybe flatten things a little. At 10 knts, you will be 75% powered up, so boom on centerline, outhaul at 80%, shape s/b pretty flat (less so in chop/waves). Tell tail flicking.

Jib fairleads- Obviously pretty far forward at the low wind range, to get top, mid, and bottom tell tails to break at the same time. Cars come back a few inches at 10 knts. It's easy to overlook this adjustment. Don't.

Halyards- at 6 knts, both will be eased a bit (more to power through chop and waves). At 10 knts, add tension to move max draft back toward 45-50%.

Jib sheet- at 6, maybe 6" off the spreaders; at 10 no more than 2" off. A little backwind on the main is ok at the top end of the range.

Steering- at 6 knts, jib tell tails flow 100%. At 10 knts, they can lift a bit now and then. But don't get greedy.

Disclaimer: My memory ain't what it used to be.

 

 

[sailon 0]

Also notice that the main has too much twist.  Top batten should be parallel to the boom, the batten telltale should be just lifting.  All I read about headstay tension sounds just about right.  Since you have new sails, it is a common mistake to trim them in too tight, but 8 inches off of the leeward spreaders is TOO loose.  Also check your lead.  May be too far forward, but hard to tell in photo.  All telltales along luff should break evenly.

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

People seem to be fixating on the jib. But on the frac-rigged J29, pointing is all about the mainsail. While you steer to the jib, the power comes from that big main. Don't let the boom drop below centerline until you're overpowered. Top batten should be parallel or just slightly kicked in. Twist is not your friend in the 6-10knt wind range.

[Jib Beam 5]

Thank you for all the input.  We are committee boat tonight and next race is a week away.

Will tighten up the foreguy and keep top batten of main parallel to the boom!  Will keep you posted.

[danstanford 130]

31 minutes ago, Jib Beam said:

Thank you for all the input.  We are committee boat tonight and next race is a week away.

Will tighten up the foreguy and keep top batten of main parallel to the boom!  Will keep you posted.

 

On 7/23/2021 at 8:56 AM, Jib Beam said:

North is the Genoa Sail Maker and it is one year old.   Have about 1" total thread showing on I.D. of the Headstay turnbuckle.

Upper Shroud Tension is 34 and Lower shroud is 31 on my Loos gauge.

Not sure if this was clear but my interpretation of the forestay question was that you would tighten it through backstay adjustment rather than trying to close the turnbuckle further as it seems to be pretty far down as it is. 

In some cases, pointing can be negatively affected by the forestay being adjusted too far (as it sounds like it might be) which sets the rake of the mast to be less and moves the center of effort forward potentially hurting pointing. 

[sailman 412]

Forestay adjustment is for mast rake and tension.  Additional forestay tension on the FRAC is from the Cap Shrouds, not the back stay.

[Jib Beam 5]

Boat pointed much better last night.  We put 12 turns on the forestay turnbuckle to remove the slack (can still put 15 more).  Helm felt more neutral and boat pointed so much better!

We also kept top battens parallel  to boom and trimmed the genoa so it was 2'' off spreaders and almost touching chainplates.  Boat felt great!  Now for the 2nd half of the summer series!

Thanks to all of you that helped us out.

 

Chris and Crew