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Rule 42 at Tokyo Olympics


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WS guidance for Laser sailing viz Rule 42:

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/Rule42Laser201320032014-[16804].pdf

Photo shows measured speed in and out of tacks for one competitor in R1, but all competitors show similar trends.  The boat is  clearly exiting the tack faster than it went in.  In one tack there was even a distance gain.

Is this speed difference unobservable to the judges or are they turning a blind eye in a way not really covered by the rules? 

 

BA7844A9-9F30-41D3-8CDB-C4EAB4FC67B2.png

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Seemed like they pinged a few men for downwind 42 but I think pinging for upwind roll tacking is a whole other kettle of fish...

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Interesting data, but, I think, you're putting too much trust into electronics.

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Is this speed difference unobservable to the judges ..

Possibly. One has to be there to be 100% sure. (Anyone have a video of that race?)

Those that sail at the top level (Olympics) usually sail at the edge of breaching the Rules, especially in Laser class. One also has to remember that IJs in RIBs are not current top Laser sailors and might not be able to detect small nuances, since their knowledge is probably one step behind the current "pushing" techniques.

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 ..or are they turning a blind eye in a way not really covered by the rules?

That's also a possibility in regard to some particular "minor" breaches. (Are we going to penalize 80% of the fleet in the first race?) ;)

 

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I can't watch Laser races, the bullshit they bung on downwind.

It's like watching 'speed walking'.  How to pick someone running.

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I can't say what they should do at the Olympics but I can comment on what we do in the North East in regards to high school sailing.  I am a coach and most of my skilled kids exit a tack faster than they go into it, in certain conditions.  Not every tack, but a bunch.  All the coaches know it's happening, their kids do it too.  However we have no proof it is happening.  We don't have trackers and such.  I have a few sea lawyers on my team who have tried and failed to protest for this.  I have always warned them against it.  However if it is a drifter and a boat is tacking simply for the speed gain, then there is a case.  When most competitors have tacked less than 5 times but the lead boat has tacked 30 times, 10 seconds apart?  That's a protest that is justified and can be won.  That is what I tell my team, that they can protest for anything they want but they should determine if they actually have a chance at winning.

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I've noticed that many of the "top Sailors" when they come a visiting (rarely) at our club are sailing right at the edge of legality. You'd have to have a video camera trained on them individually at all times, even then it would a 50/50 in a protest.

We've had very aggressive (in sailing ) people turn up at the club who also push the rules to the limit.. They normally end up calming down or leaving.

It just doesn't work in a small Sailing club in restricted waters on a river where racing exists because of curtesy and realising while you have rights, there are times when not to push it..

For instance  next week is our regatta week there will be hundreds of hire boaters motoring close to the river bank each side.. It's just not, to use an old phrase " the done thing" to push another competitor in front the inexperienced motorboaters to gain an advantage. That just forces the motorboats out into the river into everyone's way..

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I was a coach at a youth worlds in Osaka Japan many moons ago, in one boys Laser race the leader was pinged for rocking, his first offence that event, on the last down wind leg, he did his turns, and when the jury boat was out of sight, rocked and ooched his way back into the lead on the same leg and won the race.

Nothing has changed and speaking from experience of having been on the Laser circuit in Europe, you are only guilty if you get caught.

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41 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

I was a coach at a youth worlds in Osaka Japan many moons ago, in one boys Laser race the leader was pinged for rocking, his first offence that event, on the last down wind leg, he did his turns, and when the jury boat was out of sight, rocked and ooched his way back into the lead on the same leg and won the race.

Nothing has changed and speaking from experience of having been on the Laser circuit in Europe, you are only guilty if you get caught.

Sorry, it was Fukuoka, we flew into Osaka.

Getting old…..

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43 minutes ago, Major Tom said:

I was a coach at a youth worlds in Osaka Japan many moons ago, in one boys Laser race the leader was pinged for rocking, his first offence that event, on the last down wind leg, he did his turns, and when the jury boat was out of sight, rocked and ooched his way back into the lead on the same leg and won the race.

Nothing has changed and speaking from experience of having been on the Laser circuit in Europe, you are only guilty if you get caught.

And this is why I gave up laser masters....so it is not just the youth

I'd be for legalizing - I don't mind doing what makes a boat go, I do mind losing to cheaters and I'm not about to start cheating (I still worship Elvestrom)

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8 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

If you legalise it you get that crazy shit you see in the 470 and windsurfers.

I agree, but it appears that the law as it stands can’t be policed. Might be simpler to say the boat can’t be rolled more than 10 degrees, regardless of the speed.  That could be policed easily with technology. 

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3 hours ago, Major Tom said:

Nothing has changed and speaking from experience of having been on the Laser circuit in Europe, you are only guilty if you get caught.

All this Rule 42 stuff is kind of double standard. On one hand, as per WS International Judges manual (and some other WS documents), deliberately breaking a Rule, puts you right into the Rule 69 territory.

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N.2.1 When the Protest Committee Should Initiate Action Under Rule 69 Hearing

Protest committees should take action under rule 69 if a competitor deliberately breaks a rule for his or her own advancement or if a
deliberate breach results in injury, or if a competitor cheats, lies at a hearing, or behaves in any way that brings the sport into disrepute.

On the other hand, deliberately breaking a Rule 42 is sort of OK and only gets you a 2 turns penalty.

So, what's right and what's wrong? What shall we teach our junior sailors?

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Point is that sailing boats can be made faster by adding energy from the sailor.

Question. What would happen if all methods of adding energy to a boat were legitimised short of touching the water?

What would happen then?

Can we predict the outcome?

 

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3 hours ago, Dart96 said:

Point is that sailing boats can be made faster by adding energy from the sailor.

Question. What would happen if all methods of adding energy to a boat were legitimised short of touching the water?

What would happen then?

Can we predict the outcome?

 

See RSX medal race for your answer…

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3 hours ago, Dart96 said:

Can we predict the outcome?

We know what would happen 'cause that's why the rules were introduced in the first place. 

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1 minute ago, Dart96 said:

And does what they do in the Olympics have any effects on club level racing?

Absobloodylutely. I shan't name names, because the might have cleaned up their acts, but when I was doing regular circuit handicap events in the UK there were certain classes notorious for illegal kinetics (and others for being piss poor at obeying other rules). 

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3 hours ago, Dart96 said:

Point is that sailing boats can be made faster by adding energy from the sailor.

Question. What would happen if all methods of adding energy to a boat were legitimised short of touching the water?

What would happen then?

Can we predict the outcome?

 

 

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This is Matt Wearn’s record for race 9.  No wonder he wins, blatant repeated breaking of rule 42! Much more so than, say, Scheidt.

An excellent sailor no doubt, but his job is easier if he makes ground every tack vs a compliant sailor.  

1378DA26-3233-4479-A2C1-A8141BE97DFB.png

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You last comment was just silly .

There are no compliant ( to your version of rule 42)  sailors in the Olympics. Because if they did sail that way they wouldn’t have have qualified for the event anyway . 

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37 minutes ago, Xeon said:

You last comment was just silly .

There are no compliant ( to your version of rule 42)  sailors in the Olympics. Because if they did sail that way they wouldn’t have have qualified for the event anyway . 

That’s my point! Maybe I too could be an Olympian if I don’t stick to the rules :)

And it’s not my version of rule 42.  It is World Sailing’s interpretation of how it should be applied to the Laser class (my emphasis):

2. Roll tacking
While tacking sailors move their bodies to roll the boat and steer it through the manoeuvre. The only restriction is that the body movement doesn’t cause the boats speed to be faster than it would have been in the absence of the tack. A problem is caused when the sailor delays righting the boat after reaching close-hauled on the new tack. At this point the exception allowing the body movement no longer applies. The vigorous righting movement is judged under the basic rule 42.1 and if that single righting moment increases the speed of the boat it is prohibited.
Permitted actions:
• Body movements that exaggerate rolling and cause the boat to sail out of a tack at the same speed as she had just before the manoeuvre. - ROCK 8
• Moving the mast to windward of vertical at the completion of the tack. – ROCK 9
• Repeated tacks related to wind or to tactical considerations.
Prohibited actions:
Body movements exaggerating rolling and causing the boat to sail out of a tack at a speed greater than she had just before the manoeuvre. This is usually only observable in very light wind conditions by the clear drop in speed after accelerating out of the tack. - BASIC 7
• Mostly Laser Standards:
Delaying righting the boat after the tack is completed on a new close-hauled course, followed by a strong body pump or vigorous sheet trim that clearly propels the boat – BASIC 6
• Mostly Laser Radials and Lasers 4.7:
In very light air, delaying righting the boat after the boat has reached a close-hauled course and rolling it further to leeward before trimming it flat; if this action is repeated in their subsequent tacks it breaks 42.2(b)(1).
• Repeated tacks unrelated to wind or tactical considerations. – 42.2(e)
Gathering evidence:
• Is the sailor delaying righting the boat after the tack?
• Is it followed by a vigorous trim of the sheet or body pump?
• Is it clearly propelling the boat?
Do the individual tacks increase the speed of the boat beyond normal upwind speed?
• Does sailor’s body movement cause the increased speed?
• Is the increase in speed after the tack followed by a sudden and significant decrease in
speed?
• Can the tacks be justified by wind shifts or tactical considerations?

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The bottom line is if you roll tack correctly you will come out of the tack faster than you went in ( in most conditions) . Otherwise what’s the point in doing it ? And most dinghy sailors do this .

 

I totally agree with not wanting dinghy sailing to be like windsurfing and a total pump fest and things like rocking in light airs do also get my goat.

But this bee in your bonnet over roll tacking that you have is just taking you down the rabbit hole. 
 

 

Now if you want to start on about repeated roll jibing in light airs I will back you all the way :D

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It’s not a bee in a bonnet, it’s there in the rules. In writing.  Not my rules. WS rules.  If you don’t like them, lobby for them to be changed.  But until you succeed in changing them, everyone should play by the current rules.

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I am and so are they . If WS want to put an unenforceable rule in the rule book that’s WS fault , not us sailors. 
 

Sportsman and women do their sports to the limit they can get away with , not to the spirit of the rules.

Football players dive and foul other players.

Rugby players do all sorts of illegal things at scrums and rucks . 
 

These type of things happen in all sports .


 

If people don’t like that side competition sports perhaps they should maybe think about doing other non competitive things . 

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I sail at a tiny puddle in the centre of England. We are literally the bottom rung of sailing in this country. All the competent sailors at my club , including me, roll tack and come out of the tack quicker than we went in . As has everyone at every open meeting or national’s I have ever been too . No one has ever  thought this as cheating other than you .

We would think of cheating as rocking , pumping , ouching or barging in at marks etc. 
You seem to have a very strange view of the sport we all love .

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I haven't seen Laser racing for years.  Now that I have I do not want to see it again for many more years.

The roll tack to the degree it is being used is cheating according to the rules.  It's in plain sight, the Emperors New Clothes.

The sneaky pumping appears to be unenforceable for events that are not umpired.

EDIT: Recently I sailed against a sailor who competed at an Olympics.  He sculled the rudder and ooched the main and was reported for it.  The RC did nothing.  After seeing these Olympics I now have a different view of his actions.  They are not one-off.

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The race committee can choose to fly the flag allowing all kinetic "boosts". Which I gather on most (but not all) races they have chosen to do. So not cheating. But when they haven't, some competitors have been pinged. No streams I have seen have made it clear whether or not the flag was flying

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2 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

The race committee can choose to fly the flag allowing all kinetic "boosts". Which I gather on most (but not all) races they have chosen to do. So not cheating. But when they haven't, some competitors have been pinged. No streams I have seen have made it clear whether or not the flag was flying

Code Flag Zero is flown at the start where cheating is allowed.

I can see that it is an understandable decision to avoid having to police every competitor in conditions that make it almost impossible to do so.

It still sucks.  The worst part is not the rules or the umpires, it's that if they can get away with it, sailors will cheat.

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44 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

The race committee can choose to fly the flag allowing all kinetic "boosts". Which I gather on most (but not all) races they have chosen to do. So not cheating. But when they haven't, some competitors have been pinged. No streams I have seen have made it clear whether or not the flag was flying

This does not apply to Lasers though, does it? Finns and 470 only.  Certainly there was no air rowing like in Finns so I assume kinetics were not allowed for that race at least.

1 hour ago, Xeon said:

All the competent sailors at my club , including me, roll tack and come out of the tack quicker than we went in . As has everyone at every open meeting or national’s I have ever been too . No one has ever  thought this as cheating other than you .

Surely not? Obviously every body roll tacks, but we would call out anyone clearly accelerating.  And the rules and interpretations from WS would give us a strong case.

43 minutes ago, random. said:

The worst part is not the rules or the umpires, it's that if they can get away with it, sailors will cheat.

Yes, this exactly. Sadly true of all elite sport, but this is really no different to doping. 

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On 7/26/2021 at 8:26 AM, ZeroTheHero said:

I can't say what they should do at the Olympics but I can comment on what we do in the North East in regards to high school sailing.  I am a coach and most of my skilled kids exit a tack faster than they go into it, in certain conditions.  Not every tack, but a bunch.  All the coaches know it's happening, their kids do it too.  However we have no proof it is happening.  We don't have trackers and such.  I have a few sea lawyers on my team who have tried and failed to protest for this.  I have always warned them against it.  However if it is a drifter and a boat is tacking simply for the speed gain, then there is a case.  When most competitors have tacked less than 5 times but the lead boat has tacked 30 times, 10 seconds apart?  That's a protest that is justified and can be won.  That is what I tell my team, that they can protest for anything they want but they should determine if they actually have a chance at winning.

Typically an amended rule 42 for collegiate sailing, isn't it? Been nearly a decade but my recollection was it was more about mast movement (two ticks or something like that) than entry and exit speeds. Or maybe that was college and not high school?

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... you guys do realize that any properly executed rolltack will, almost by definition, cause the boat to accelerate? That that is the entire point of rolltacking in a dinghy? This is the way it is in any semi-competitive fleet, not to mention the Olympics. The bleeding edge of competitiveness invariably is also the edge of legality, as it is in any sport.

Don't blame the player, blame the game. Rule 42 is outdated and should be changed (e.g. mast from vertical twice, as has been mentioned previously).

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As I read the rule (and interpretation) the boat is allowed to accelerate. That, of course, is the point of roll tacking. But that acceleration is to counter the deceleration from the turning manoeuvre, ie to (net) keep the speed constant and to minimise lost ground. It is clear that the rule does not allow the boat speed coming out of a tack to be faster than normal upwind speed or faster than if she hadn’t tacked. Unenforceable perhaps.  If so it needs changing not ignoring.

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I feel like only way to get rid of this is to ditch classes where it all is easy and bring back old olympic leadmines as monohulls. I guess it is not that big issue in Nacra´s and skiffs?

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On 7/31/2021 at 5:51 PM, Bored Stiff said:

This does not apply to Lasers though, does it? Finns and 470 only.  Certainly there was no air rowing like in Finns so I assume kinetics were not allowed for that race at least.

Surely not? Obviously every body roll tacks, but we would call out anyone clearly accelerating.  And the rules and interpretations from WS would give us a strong case.

Yes, this exactly. Sadly true of all elite sport, but this is really no different to doping. 

Thiscis not like doping.

Roll yacking andchybimg is permissible

Thevproblem iscthecrulevisvbasrf on technoqur degree

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Yeah, that shit to me is just wrong. I know a whole bunch will say it the physicality coming through but to me it's just wrong.

You don't see it in the performance boats like the 49'er/ FZ or the Nacra.

At least the pumping in the Finn and RS-X looks like it belongs.

Just cut out this stupid trapeze humping. It does nothing to improve the viewability of sailing and makes us look weird...

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You could almost see the tension in the faces of the judges during the Finn medal race, no judge wanted to be the guy who took away a medal.  Slightly too light for the free pumping rule to come into effect, the swan song of a graceful and energetic sailors boatspeed boat turned out to be a short farcical game of 'he who gets closest to the invisible R42 line without crossing it' wins.  

When I see people imitate this style in local racing, I struggle to respect their wins, and actively avoid the classes they race.

I have no idea what the solution is, but on the water referees blowing whistles for ever more esoteric rule infractions seems unfair on both the sailors and the referees. 

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Is the tacking thing got to be repeated tacks unrelated to changes in wind? 

The whole do you come out faster than you went in is part of exceptions.

So... you can't make lots of repeated tacks or gybes unrelated to changes in the wind or to tactical considerations unless you fall under the exception of "after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of the tack or gybe."

However, if your tacking is not repeated and unrelated to wind or tactics, then it's fine to come out faster than you went in? 

Judges on the water therefore only need to consider the whole speed after first determining the tacks are repeated and unrelated to the wind or tactics? 

To my eye Wearns tacks look related to wind and tactics and not heavily repeated, so it the fact he comes out faster than he went in is neither here nor there as he isn't breaking rule 42.2 (e).

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Mozz,

The Lasers seem to come out of the tacks quite deep as well... no way the VMG through the tack is higher than the steady state equivalent?

Watch how much the main is eased in full hiking conditions...

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10 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Is the tacking thing got to be repeated tacks unrelated to changes in wind? 

The whole do you come out faster than you went in is part of exceptions.

So... you can't make lots of repeated tacks or gybes unrelated to changes in the wind or to tactical considerations unless you fall under the exception of "after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of the tack or gybe."

However, if your tacking is not repeated and unrelated to wind or tactics, then it's fine to come out faster than you went in? 

Judges on the water therefore only need to consider the whole speed after first determining the tacks are repeated and unrelated to the wind or tactics? 

To my eye Wearns tacks look related to wind and tactics and not heavily repeated, so it the fact he comes out faster than he went in is neither here nor there as he isn't breaking rule 42.2 (e).

Not exactly.

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On 8/2/2021 at 11:49 PM, crashtack said:

... you guys do realize that any properly executed rolltack will, almost by definition, cause the boat to accelerate? That that is the entire point of rolltacking in a dinghy? This is the way it is in any semi-competitive fleet, not to mention the Olympics. The bleeding edge of competitiveness invariably is also the edge of legality, as it is in any sport.

Don't blame the player, blame the game. Rule 42 is outdated and should be changed (e.g. mast from vertical twice, as has been mentioned previously).

Here's the scientific proof that roll tacking in light winds and sailing downwind in S-pattern in flat water propells Laser by the man made wind i.e vortices.

S-turns at around 16:00; roll tacking at around 36:30 in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVfY0yRxmgY

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5 hours ago, ojfd said:

Here's the scientific proof

Interesting video, thanks
 

On 8/6/2021 at 4:10 PM, Mozzy Sails said:

the tacking thing got to be repeated tacks

Interesting interpretation.  So a roll tack can propel the boat forward as much as possible provided that the tack was initiated for legitimate reasons (ie to change heading not primarily to accelerate)?  

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1 hour ago, Bored Stiff said:

Interesting interpretation.  So a roll tack can propel the boat forward as much as possible provided that the tack was initiated for legitimate reasons (ie to change heading not primarily to accelerate)?  

In practical terms, that's usually how it gets judged. Since its near impossible to police every tack, umps will tend to flag you only if you're doing an unreasonable amount of tacks in open water. The way to get around this, of course, is to "find" a tacking duel and then claim you were just controlling the guy behind (or getting out from the guy ahead).

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That's how I read it. There is a list of prohibited actions. Coming out of a tack faster than you go in is not on that list, so the tracker doesn't prove any rule is broken.

Repeated tacking is a prohibited action. Of this was visible on the tracker then the sailor would have to meet the exception of not coming out faster or they would brake the rule.  It they first have to be doing the repeated tacks unrelated to tactics etc.

I think people here are judging whether Wearn meets the exception before they have actually assessed whether he is doing a prohibited action in the first place. 

That's my thinking anyway.

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is sailing an athletic sport or is it an activity that should be done as not to get one's blue blazer sweaty?

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On 8/13/2021 at 7:20 PM, Speng said:

is sailing an athletic sport or is it an activity that should be done as not to get one's blue blazer sweaty?

I mostly agree with this, but there are illegal actions in every sport.  It is kind of like how travelling is called in the NBA.  It has definitely changed thought the years.  Palming the ball and the Euro-step are not nearly as bad as that ridiculous humping motion though.

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