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It's time. Post up whatever (Corsair/Farrier related).

I'll start. 

Got the '15 970 home at the end of May and here we are at the end of July and I still haven't splashed it.  This project has eaten up most my free time over the past couple months.  However, I'm nearly done with what I thought were some mandatory fixes.  Non-mandatory stuff coming over Winter.  Biggest issue, as discussed elsewhere, was my trailer.  Quickly: Added a tongue (didn't have one as it had a wonky AL-KO 50mm actuator), built a 60 degree dual winch post (offset mounted winch for mast only), axles,  disc brakes, 14" wheels (trailer had 4-bolt 13"), 2 5/16 actuator/coupler.  Boat was approx 28" too far back on the trailer (nothing could be done to fix this due to way trailer was setup/lack of a tongue).   Made for a 12 state, 3300 mile, painfully slow,  wiggly, bouncy trip from hell.  Today, I finally moved the boat forward.  Chainplates between the wheels, where they are supposed to be, and rear beams at the rear of the trailer frame (like every 970 on a trailer pic I've seen...other than mine).  I have to install fenders, but damn it's just too hot outside right now.  Fenders, Honda oils, new mast antenna mount and it will be ready for the water.  So looks like splashing next weekend.

I knocked out a number of other things, but I'll get to that later (including a new mast cradle and flooring).  Anyway, making the boat towable was a priority and she tows nicely now.  It's a good day.

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Since no one is jumping in, I'll continue.  Laminate floor was a mess.  Removed it and the mastic.  Installed spaghetti mat.  Love it.

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Another biggie was the forward mast cradle.  As built it was a disaster waiting to happen.  Cradle rested on the lower horizontal pulpit tubes via half clamshells.  A number of problems with this.  First, how attach it so it doesn't come loose?  Second, all the weight, up high, rocked the pulpit back and forth until the pulpit became loose and hairline cracks developed in a couple of pulpit welds.  Third, cradle was too high (made lifting the mast off the cradle (and clearing hardware) extra difficult.  Copied the later versions found on 970s.  I'll be adding a crossmember (waiting on parts).  Pulpit now rock solid (added an extra through bolt at each base plus backed it with large fender washers).  The cradle is rock solid as well.  Love the new height too.

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You could have removed the load from the pulpit altogether by moving the front mast support onto the trailer.  This makes it a little harder to raise/lower the mast while on the water, though.  

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Still no takers?  Come on Corsair/Farrier folks!  Pics, brags, whatever.

Well then, I'll continue.  I wanted a decent cap out of 14" tires.  As a result I went with ST215/75R14 trailer tires.  These have a cap of 2,200 lbs and a section width of 8.5".  However, given the tight clearances, I wish I would have gone with ST205/75R14 tires.  Cap is a bit lower at 2,040 pounds and diameter is only .6" smaller (effectively a quarter inch of gained clearance) and section width is 8", but every little bit helps I suppose.  Live and learn.  In five years I know what size the replacement tires will be.

Fenders:  New galvanized fenders are 10" wide.  I've tried some different scenarios, given the limited clearance between wheels and amas, and at present, it looks like I have a low rider (having to move the fenders way outboard to enhance clearance between tires and fenders and between fenders and amas).  That's not going to happen.  As someone who consistently works harder, not smarter, I'm going to narrow the fenders.  I'll cut the fenders 1.75" from the outside, inner, edge.  I'll lay that section on top of the fender, rosette weld it in place and seal the overlay joint, ultimately giving me an 8.5" fender width (just enough to cover the tires). This will allow me to have the inner fend edge further out from the trailer frame and the amas, and thus I'll be able to mount the fenders higher).  Then, I suppose, I'll use some bunk carpet along that radiused inner edge of the fender to protect the amas.  I don't plan on having fenders touch the amas, but it will be damn close...and it will likely happen.  Sure, I could double up on the 2x10 keel bunks, but then I'd have to replace all my hull side bunks as well.  Although the side bunks swivel, they are not height adjustable. As a result, I'd have to install all new, wider boards, for those.  The ama bunks are height adjustable, with room to adjust, so good there.  The bunk scenario will probably have to wait until I have a slip of my own (or can borrow one for a while).  I haven't invested in a set of tall jacks yet, and it will be a awhile as I have bigger fish to fry.  Lowering axles not really a viable option.

Tonight bow sprint gets a good sanding and new clear coat (buddy coming over to do that while I struggle with fenders).  In addition, the hit list still includes oil/filter change, new bow nav lights and new mast mount for the antenna.  With that, I think this boat will be ready to splash this weekend.  FINALLY!!

 

 

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20 hours ago, MultiThom said:

You could have removed the load from the pulpit altogether by moving the front mast support onto the trailer.  This makes it a little harder to raise/lower the mast while on the water, though.  

I've thought of doing this many times, but have hesitated because it will move the SOG of the boat aft on the trailer, putting more pressure on the aft-most supports for the boat and hull contact points. 

More specifically, the aft roller support on the boat will still be supporting the same weight, but the portion of the mast weight that previously held the bow down by resting on the pulpit will now be on the trailer, creating somewhat of a lever effect pushing down on the stern of the boat. 

 

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Too late to edit.  If I could, this is what I would write:  With that, I think this boat will be ready to splash this weekend.  FINALLY!!   Then.... the questions will start in earnest.  I can muddle through building this or fixing that, but what I know about sailing a trimaran wouldn't fill a cavity.  I know, I know, it's like using a 930 for driver's ed.  At least I'll have the former owner on board for the first few outings.

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I'll bite ... new-to-me F25A this year. Learning the boat, put up screacher for the first time the other weekend.

Unique boat with F-28 mast and extra-long bowsprit

Re-named Grateful, sailing out of Muskegon, MI.

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1 hour ago, gspot said:

More specifically, the aft roller support on the boat will still be supporting the same weight, but the portion of the mast weight that previously held the bow down by resting on the pulpit will now be on the trailer, creating somewhat of a lever effect pushing down on the stern of the boat. 

 

You don't get the bouncy or torque on the pulpit by that loose weight up there.  You also could move the mast more forward giving you a little more tongue weight.  It's not a big deal since the mast doesn't really weigh that much (or you couldn't be sliding it back and forth single handed).  Only problem I have (my mast support is on the trailer) is I can't launch with the mast down which means I have to raise the mast in order to do any trailer maintenance (my boat has no pulpit).  I also can't jack the boat off the trailer without removing the mast completely in the yard.  My F242 didn't have a pulpit mast support and we just used a board tied securely to the rails....never slid off but it was concerning on long trips.

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3 hours ago, GratefulED said:

I'll bite ... new-to-me F25A this year. Learning the boat, put up screacher for the first time the other weekend.

Unique boat with F-28 mast and extra-long bowsprit

Re-named Grateful, sailing out of Muskegon, MI.

Is Grateful boomless or boomed?  Many F25Cs are boomless.  

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Has anyone ever kept stats for capsizes of F/C boats?  I know of an F242 that capsized in SF Bay practicing for a race (boat was righted).  There was a recent F28R capsize in SF Bay during a race (boat was righted).  Way back when an F31 capsized going around the Faralones during a race (boat was a total loss).  Be nice to compile stats and conditions.

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New to me 1998 242, (ex-Littlewing the national champion.)  Bought her last fall for a restomod and after lots of maintenance checklist items, fixing coachroof holes from the prior owners' dreaded 'oops i forgot to bungie up the mast rotator when I lowered the mast', and doing boat yoga to get to pulpit (wiring for bow lights) and beam hold down fitting bolts buried deep in the recesses of the boat (and glued in as the fittings were put on before deck joined the hull and the glue squeezed out) I splashed this past weekend.  Relaced and tightened the nets - why the hell are there not instructions in the manual for this - and she sailed like a champ out of the box.

Need to shim or replace the beam pads to stop the squeaking, and my new topping lift fitting unbolted itself while sailing - but not a bad start.

Did 9kts on a 10kts kinda day upwind and nobody got hurt.

I think half the lake gave her a long look - but she is all mine :)

 

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Slapped together a crossmember for the mast cradle. Spot welded (316) the tube ends so I wasn't relying on a couple little failure prone set screws.  Now I can check this one off the list.

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8 hours ago, deminimis said:

 I can muddle through building this or fixing that, but what I know about sailing a trimaran wouldn't fill a cavity.  I know, I know, it's like using a 930 for driver's ed.  At least I'll have the former owner on board for the first few outings.

Seriously, just do it.  Driving in under 20 kt breeze is "no worries mate".  Launch/retrieval of spinnaker will take some practice.  Tacking will be easy once crew and you get the timing down.  But these boats are popular for a reason.  

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8 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Has anyone ever kept stats for capsizes of F/C boats?  I know of an F242 that capsized in SF Bay practicing for a race (boat was righted).  There was a recent F28R capsize in SF Bay during a race (boat was righted).  Way back when an F31 capsized going around the Faralones during a race (boat was a total loss).  Be nice to compile stats and conditions.

what would be nice was what sails were up hence wind angle when they went over.
Plus if down wind did they do the keel boat move and dump the main...guaranteed swim.

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11 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

what would be nice was what sails were up hence wind angle when they went over.
Plus if down wind did they do the keel boat move and dump the main...guaranteed swim.

As a new to tri sailor can you explain that last sentence in more detail?

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3 hours ago, OldmateFred said:

As a new to tri sailor can you explain that last sentence in more detail?

Best advice I can give a new tri sailor is go sailing on a modern beach cat especially if you come from a mono ( assuming not a skiff)  hull background as several reflex actions you need are reversed.
Or take a beach cat racer out with you on a windy day.

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15 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Is Grateful boomless or boomed?  Many F25Cs are boomless.  

It's got a boom - Ballenger section. I think the builder found an aluminum mast, boom, and rudder from a standard F-28 (not 28R) and used that to set up the boat. 

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5 hours ago, Sailabout said:

Best advice I can give a new tri sailor is go sailing on a modern beach cat especially if you come from a mono ( assuming not a skiff)  hull background as several reflex actions you need are reversed.
Or take a beach cat racer out with you on a windy day.

You might not be able to sheet the spin flat to stall it like a beach cat in heavy air.  So turning down is the move correct?

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17 hours ago, eastern motors said:

I think I want to pick one these up.  Is the 28 worth the extra money over the 27?  Would not be racing seriously.

Not in my book. They rate similarly and we routinely beat F28Rs over the line with our F27F.  Which was half the price.  And twice the function with the aft cabin. Also easier to trailer and deal with the mast on the F27 IMHO.

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47 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

You might not be able to sheet the spin flat to stall it like a beach cat in heavy air.  So turning down is the move correct?

Correct as first move, second is let out some main, third is to loose the spin sheet.  Most of the time the first move is enough but if there is a boat or beach in that direction...

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22 hours ago, deminimis said:

Too late to edit.  If I could, this is what I would write:  With that, I think this boat will be ready to splash this weekend.  FINALLY!!   Then.... the questions will start in earnest.  I can muddle through building this or fixing that, but what I know about sailing a trimaran wouldn't fill a cavity.  I know, I know, it's like using a 930 for driver's ed.  At least I'll have the former owner on board for the first few outings.

The 2012 Farrier Sailing Manual is a great resource. 

13 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Seriously, just do it.  Driving in under 20 kt breeze is "no worries mate".  Launch/retrieval of spinnaker will take some practice.  Tacking will be easy once crew and you get the timing down.  But these boats are popular for a reason.  

Page 52 has a great reefing / wind capsize speed chart.

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Even if your boat isn't on this list, 20 knots of breeze is well below the wind capsize speed for all models. 

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22 hours ago, GratefulED said:

I'll bite ... new-to-me F25A this year. Learning the boat, put up screacher for the first time the other weekend.

Unique boat with F-28 mast and extra-long bowsprit

Re-named Grateful, sailing out of Muskegon, MI.

Here are some cool pics of our F-82R close reaching in about 20 knots of breeze (photos courtesy Andrew Madding).

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And cracking off a bit to navigate around an island. 

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Boat speed around 12 knots in these photos.

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1 hour ago, gspot said:

 

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Even if your boat isn't on this list, 20 knots of breeze is well below the wind capsize speed for all models. 

Wind capsize speeds are calculated values based on stability while at rest.  Add boatspeed and waves and the boat can capsize with lower wind speeds (ie, pitchpole).   Note also that chart does not include spins nor screachers.  Most capsizes have occurred with spins or screachers (but not all, the F31 going around the Faralones capsized with just jib and main (and big waves)).  

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2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Wind capsize speeds are calculated values based on stability while at rest.  Add boatspeed and waves and the boat can capsize with lower wind speeds (ie, pitchpole).   Note also that chart does not include spins nor screachers.  Most capsizes have occurred with spins or screachers (but not all, the F31 going around the Faralones capsized with just jib and main (and big waves)).  

We disagree on a lot of stuff but totally with you here.  Taken blindly, by a newbie, that chart can be hugely misleading.

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5 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Wind capsize speeds are calculated values based on stability while at rest.  Add boatspeed and waves and the boat can capsize with lower wind speeds (ie, pitchpole).   Note also that chart does not include spins nor screachers.  Most capsizes have occurred with spins or screachers (but not all, the F31 going around the Faralones capsized with just jib and main (and big waves)).  

 

3 hours ago, Wess said:

We disagree on a lot of stuff but totally with you here.  Taken blindly, by a newbie, that chart can be hugely misleading.

Yes, the fine print on the page around the chart does provide additional guidance:

The wind capsize figures given in table below are the theoretical wind speeds required to lift the center hull in the worst possible condition, which is side on with sails sheeted in tight - something that should never be allowed to happen. These figures are based on calculation combined with many years of sailing trials and testing in all conditions. While every care has been taken, this table should only be regarded as a general guide, and it always remains the skipper's responsibility to ensure the boat is sailed safely and sail is reduced appropriately for the conditions.

The above figures apply to consistent winds, and wind capsize speed will vary depending on many factors, including sea conditions, area being sailed, boat load condition, how load or crew are distributed, wind direction and wind characteristics. The recommended safe wind speed range should be thus modified or varied when required as follows:

If winds are inconsistent, strong and gusty, reduce the recommended safe wind speed ranges by 20%. If offshore, or in isolated areas, then reduce the recommended safe wind speed ranges by 20%.

If crew is inexperienced then reduce the recommended safe wind speed ranges by 20%.

If running directly downwind, the above safe wind speed ranges still apply. However, mainsail should be reefed early, or dropped altogether should winds exceed 30 knots and use a headsail only instead. Headsails can be easily released in strong gusts from astern. A mainsail cannot.

If boat is lightly loaded, the wind capsize figures will be lower, and extra care may be required. However a light boat also accelerates more easily, which helps absorb gusts easier.

Main plus Screacher capsize wind speeds ranges are around 10% lower than the main plus jib figures. However, the lighter cloth usually used on these light weather headsails will restrict their use to low wind speed ranges

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20 hours ago, gspot said:

Here are some cool pics of our F-82R close reaching in about 20 knots of breeze (photos courtesy Andrew Madding).

IMG_2763.thumb.JPG.576c48edd103c7ce8c55c698437df5ee.JPG

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And cracking off a bit to navigate around an island. 

IMG_2766.thumb.JPG.bee755647da8f6b8d98818d3f2e6468c.JPG

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Boat speed around 12 knots in these photos.

no long tiller and helm from the ama?

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

no long tiller and helm from the ama?

Another great bit of advice for a newbie (or experienced sailor). If and only if you have a second experienced crew who can handle sheets when conditions merit, drive from the float. It is so much safer and faster. You can see and feel the breeze there with fewer obstructions. You can see the leeward bow, all sails and tell tails, and wind vane. You can better see the wave trains. Once you get comfortable out there it’s like night and day in terms of the difference and better feel you will get for the boat and what it and the conditions are saying to you.

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Almost the wrapping touches before we finally splash this weekend.  When the boat was shipped over from the Bahamas, it's as if they tried to do as much damage as they could (bent furler, knocked everything off the top of the mast, dented trailer (munched the already crappy actuator), etc, etc, etc).  New antenna mount installed last night (still have a few things to clean up up there).  I'm sure there are those that may protest such a beefy mount on the mast, but that's the route I chose to go. The drip loop will be long enough so I can rotate the antenna down (or rather, forward) when the mast is on the cradle when need be.  When redoing the pulpit, I discovered one of the bow nav lights was toast.  Installed a new pair of those as well (a 15 min job that probably took closer to two hours...like everything).

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227200822_10219791607077572_5899985981370647181_n.jpg

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3 hours ago, Sailabout said:

no long tiller and helm from the ama?

Normally yes but...

1 hour ago, Wess said:

Another great bit of advice for a newbie (or experienced sailor). If and only if you have a second experienced crew who can handle sheets when conditions merit, drive from the float. It is so much safer and faster. You can see and feel the breeze there with fewer obstructions. You can see the leeward bow, all sails and tell tails, and wind vane. You can better see the wave trains. Once you get comfortable out there it’s like night and day in terms of the difference and better feel you will get for the boat and what it and the conditions are saying to you.

...our normal helmsperson/co-owner wasn't available that day, so I recruited a buddy who is an accomplished windsurfer and has an excellent feel for the wind, but had never helmed a trimaran with a tiller or extension before. We started the day with the tiller extension, but he found the extension unintuitive and gravitated back to the cockpit, finding a direct hand on the tiller more comfortable and intuitive. I was on the sheets.

I would have encouraged him to continue with the extension, but we also found ourselves underdressed for the conditions, wearing only shorts and light tops when we should have been in drysuits. As such we were both happy to stay in the cockpit where we at least had the perception of being slightly warmer and more protected. 

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1 hour ago, gspot said:

Normally yes but...

...our normal helmsperson/co-owner wasn't available that day, so I recruited a buddy who is an accomplished windsurfer and has an excellent feel for the wind, but had never helmed a trimaran with a tiller or extension before. We started the day with the tiller extension, but he found the extension unintuitive and gravitated back to the cockpit, finding a direct hand on the tiller more comfortable and intuitive. I was on the sheets.

I would have encouraged him to continue with the extension, but we also found ourselves underdressed for the conditions, wearing only shorts and light tops when we should have been in drysuits. As such we were both happy to stay in the cockpit where we at least had the perception of being slightly warmer and more protected. 

Good call!!

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How do you all release the mainsheet from the ama?  On my F242 it was hit or miss until I replaced the camcleat with a spinlock.  Traveler, similarly, couldn't be used from the ama on the F242 even after I changed it to windward sheeting and increased the purchase.  Then I started single handing races and just drove from the cockpit.

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30 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

How do you all release the mainsheet from the ama?  On my F242 it was hit or miss until I replaced the camcleat with a spinlock.  Traveler, similarly, couldn't be used from the ama on the F242 even after I changed it to windward sheeting and increased the purchase.  Then I started single handing races and just drove from the cockpit.

We normally sail double-handed with one on the ama and the other in the cockpit. 

As the trimmer, if I have to operate something from the ama, I typically belay it on the cockpit winch adjacent to the traveler.

Downwind or reaching this is typically the kite or screacher sheet, while the driver tends the main from the cockpit.

Upwind I normally move to the cockpit to manage the sheets and the driver moves to the ama, unless it's a long leg with a steady breeze and we'll both move to the ama.   

Single-handed I do everything from the cockpit like @MultiThom.

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Thread needs more sailing pics.  Looking through my photos, I realize I only have pics of when it's boring... 

Headed in past Point Bonita with the old screacher... this was supposed to be the next sail replaced, but the main failed in high winds and cut in line... 

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The kids' favorite spot when conditions permit...

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Just enjoying the day on the Bay.

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Well, that can't be good...

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That old UK screacher has really interesting construction.  Is that a tape drive sail?  How old is it?

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24 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

That old UK screacher has really interesting construction.  Is that a tape drive sail?  How old is it?

Yes, I think it is a tape drive... it's from the previous-previous-owner, so at least 12 years, I think... it wasn't used much at all over the last 10 years by the previous owner, so it's not in terrible shape for it's age, other than the mold spots inside the film.  

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21 hours ago, deminimis said:

Almost the wrapping touches before we finally splash this weekend.  When the boat was shipped over from the Bahamas, it's as if they tried to do as much damage as they could (bent furler, knocked everything off the top of the mast, dented trailer (munched the already crappy actuator), etc, etc, etc).  New antenna mount installed last night (still have a few things to clean up up there).  I'm sure there are those that may protest such a beefy mount on the mast, but that's the route I chose to go. The drip loop will be long enough so I can rotate the antenna down (or rather, forward) when the mast is on the cradle when need be.  When redoing the pulpit, I discovered one of the bow nav lights was toast.  Installed a new pair of those as well (a 15 min job that probably took closer to two hours...like everything).

224728756_10219791908845116_1598859834638227922_n.jpg

227200822_10219791607077572_5899985981370647181_n.jpg

another tip....
wind wand, put the bracket on fwd as the only time you really look at it is down wind ( light air) and with the mast rotated its behind the main.

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16 hours ago, MultiThom said:

How do you all release the mainsheet from the ama?  On my F242 it was hit or miss until I replaced the camcleat with a spinlock.  Traveler, similarly, couldn't be used from the ama on the F242 even after I changed it to windward sheeting and increased the purchase.  Then I started single handing races and just drove from the cockpit.

I make the traveler line long enough to go out to both ama's at the same time ( small shock cord to keep it out there,so full control when out there.

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2 hours ago, Sailabout said:

another tip....
wind wand, put the bracket on fwd as the only time you really look at it is down wind ( light air) and with the mast rotated its behind the main.

Thanks.  My anemometer is out in front.  Wind vane relegated aft.

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I always found it interesting that in spite of all the incredible design innovations and outstanding attributes of the F-boats it's almost impossible to find a good, comfortable place to drive the boat from.  Sitting in the cockpit you have a terrible view of all the things you really want to see.  If you go out on the tramp you can't really get comfortable and aren't physically attached to the boat.  I know people have made all kinds of adaptations but it's kinda weird that a brilliant guy like Mr. F never addressed this glaring defect. 

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25 minutes ago, mundt said:

but it's kinda weird that a brilliant guy like Mr. F never addressed this glaring defect. 

I think, at heart, Ian was a KISS sort of engineer.  He also knew that there was one personality quirk that every trimaran owner has--free spiritedness and willingness to experiment.  It is more fun to figure things out for yourself.  

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Not having a comfortable, secure place to drive the boat from seems to me a little bit beyond KISS or free-spiritedness.  More like a stubborn refusal to design a proper place to sit, which would actually be a KISS.  Look at the R33 seats.  Incredibly comfortable, secure, great view of sails and bows and as simple and obvious as can be.  Look how all the big French tris have perfectly simple, perfectly placed drivers seats.  Nothing complicated about it.  

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Uh...didja happen to notice the difference in size between most of Farrier designs and the boats you mention?  

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Reynolds 33 is certainly not significantly bigger than most F-s. To provide a proper driver’s seat wouldn’t require much space, in fact the big tris’ seat looks like a simple carbon chair.  Difference being where it’s placed rather than a fancy design. The F-s seem specifically designed to cause driver suffering and nobody can tell me that the driver’s seat on any F-s are well-placed nor well-designed.  Anywhere you try and sit where you can operate the mainsheet and tiller and see the sails and bows is either painful and or flopping/sliding around on the tramp.  Not to mention that when a chop hits the rear aka at speed it shoot up in the air and invariably comes right down the back of your neck.  

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10 hours ago, deminimis said:

Thanks.  My anemometer is out in front.  Wind vane relegated aft.

I struggle to see a use for anemometer on a multi

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30 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

I struggle to see a use for anemometer on a multi

I should have said windex is aft. Anemometer and vane forward.  But I can throw all that, and the pesky accompanying electronics, in the trash if you like.

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2 hours ago, deminimis said:

I should have said windex is aft. Anemometer and vane forward.  But I can throw all that, and the pesky accompanying electronics, in the trash if you like.

depth, speed compass, windex, ( chartplotter)
Anemometer on a rotating mast, they all get thrown away eventually...

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Just a piece of yarn on the shroud so you don't have to look at the masthead and crane your neck.  

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22 hours ago, mundt said:

Not having a comfortable, secure place to drive the boat from seems to me a little bit beyond KISS or free-spiritedness.  More like a stubborn refusal to design a proper place to sit, which would actually be a KISS.  Look at the R33 seats.  Incredibly comfortable, secure, great view of sails and bows and as simple and obvious as can be.  Look how all the big French tris have perfectly simple, perfectly placed drivers seats.  Nothing complicated about it.  

Would you want seating just a bit outboard of where it is or way outboard? Is it a clear view of the jib, seeing over the house, or just getting outboard? I've been sketching a small tri and am curious.

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37 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Would you want seating just a bit outboard of where it is or way outboard? Is it a clear view of the jib, seeing over the house, or just getting outboard? I've been sketching a small tri and am curious.

I can tell you that if you are designing for single handing, the driver will want easy control over flat sailing (if you can do both, good on ya).  If you are designing for crewed sailing then you will have times when you want bow down and bow up and flat sailing (although the bow down need doesn't happen often).  If you are designing for balls to the wall spinnaker/reacher in force 4 winds, then aft outboard with a seat outside as far as you can.   Calling Ian stubborn for refusing to pick a spot to sit in goes beyond the pale since how you drive a tri depends on what sails you have up, what windspeed there is and how many people you have on board.  

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I got to drive a nice, fast Woods cat last week and found that the view was pretty good.  The view on my L7 from the normal seat was good and driving from the tramp was good too.  I want to be able to see the sails without breaking my neck, especially jib and spin/reacher/0.  I must be able to see the lee bow, at high speed that's critical.  I also want a reasonable view of whatever is in front of me.  I want good tiller angle and i want to be able to operate the mainsheet easily.  A lot of boats (Weta) have awkward mainsheet systems.  That's just terrible!  I want a comfortable seat with a soft pad for my delicate buttocks and good back support.  I also like having a secure place to hook my feet in, like a strap.  On the F-boats i always felt like the best view was right about in the middle of the tramp, but driving from there if it's windy is not really sustainable.  So to answer your question, Mr. Brown, maybe a couple feet outside of the standard F-boat seat.  

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5 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

Bean bag tied to the tramp?

I actually saw someone with that arrangement (although the beans were popcorn styrofoam).  

Currently I use stadium seats in the cockpit and move them to the tramps if I have crew (seldom).  

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How do folks like driving from the net seats on top of the aft cabin on the later corsairs? I sat on a 970 at the Annapolis boat show and it certainly would make a nice spot for a cocktail. 

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Surprised by all the comments re helm position. On our F27F we helmed from the float and it was very comfortable. Had a better view, was not in way of crew trimming from cockpit and weight forward is faster especially upwind (and also light to mid wind downwind). Hiking straps were a great addition as well. 
 

I hate (for driving) the bench seats on the larger Corsairs but my wife sure loves them. I think it puts weight where you don’t want it and had restricted view and feel. 

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Lots of head scratching, lots of mistakes and lots of questions remain.  Nonetheless, first splash was a blast.  Hopefully the marina will let me keep it here this week as I'm going to redo the keel bunks on the trailer.

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6 minutes ago, deminimis said:

Lots of head scratching, lots of mistakes and lots of questions remain.  Nonetheless, first splash was a blast.  Hopefully the marina will let me keep it here this week as I'm going to redo the keel bunks on the trailer.

225880075_10219811787182062_4771299392323859191_n.jpg

Looking good!!

 

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Thank you sir.  Of course you wouldn't be saying that if you saw me flying the main.  Worst sail trimming ever.  I got better as the day went on, but yea....  Lots to learn with this beast.

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24 minutes ago, deminimis said:

Thank you sir.  Of course you wouldn't be saying that if you saw me flying the main.  Worst sail trimming ever.  I got better as the day went on, but yea....  Lots to learn with this beast.

Use a lot of mainsheet (till top batten parallel to boom and maybe even  slight hook to windward (going upwind)) and be very active with traveler.  Change shape with wind speed.  These boats will very much reward you for good and active sail trim.  Oh and don't chock the slot (oversheet the jib).

Enjoy it!  The learning is fun and easy as the boat really talks to you with speed changes.

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Greetings ol' wise ones.  I am confused how the previous owner reefed at the luff.  That has lead me down a bit of a rabbit hole trying to figure out how he did things.  I started thinking perhaps he used a cunnigham, but I dunno.  For another day as I don't expect an answer without seeing all the gear, but I still looking for a bit of expertise.  I have two pieces of kit that are very similar (one longer than the other).  PO is off camping and off the grid, so no follow up for a while.  I did ask about these previously and he said the shorter one was for trimming the mast and the other, longer, for trimming the boom.  Okay, perhaps something lost in translation, or I'm just not getting it.  From sales pics I can gather, it appears he is using one as a boom vane and running it off the rotating mast control arm dealio.  I can't find any pics of the other being used.  Is the boom vang even necessary with this setup??  What do your collective investigative brains think he meant by using the other one to trim the mast?  Still doesn't get me to my reefing issue (no hooks or anything to clue me in), but I'd like to at least cross this off my ever-growing list of confusion.  Thanks!!

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Fboats don't need a vang generally since you keep the boom down while off the wind with traveler and mainsheet.  You have a stack pack so you likely reef the luff with the cunningham.  However, I think the 970 comes stock with a rotating boom so you may have the option of reefing the luff by rotating the mainsail around the boom (how you would do that with the stackpack, I don't know).  Trimming the mast "might" have meant he hooked the dingus at the aft eye on one of the amas and hooked the other on the shroud so he could remove slack.  Trimming the boom "might" have meant using that gear to haul the boom higher if the traveler has insufficient purchase.  Could have used those as barberhauls but normally you don't need anything that fancy.  

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Thanks Thom.  I have the reef lines at the leech, so my money is on a cunnigham for the luff as well, but haven't found it in any of the hidy holes yet.  Hopefully he'll emerge from the forest soon and can shine some light on these burning questions.  He is supposed to show up this weekend to sail, but you never know.  Thanks again.

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1 hour ago, deminimis said:

Thanks Thom.  I have the reef lines at the leech, so my money is on a cunnigham for the luff as well, but haven't found it in any of the hidy holes yet.  Hopefully he'll emerge from the forest soon and can shine some light on these burning questions.  He is supposed to show up this weekend to sail, but you never know.  Thanks again.

One of those could be used as the cunningham but you need a hook.  What did you use as the cunningham when you went out for the sail?

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The two sales pics show one of the dingus set up like a vang.  But it is not a vang, or at least its not a strong one, bc its hooked to the mast rotation yoke.  I have a similar dingus to limit the rotation of the mast.  It is hooked to the yoke, like yours is, and the other end to a pad eye on the cabin top a few feet aft of the mast.  On my boat if the mainsheet is attached to the aft end of the boom the boom will push against the mast and over-rotate it, thus I need to tighten the dingus to limit mast rotation.  I suspect your dingus as pictured may also limit mast rotation or at least tie the rotation to the orientation of the athwart position of the boom.  A dealer should be able to answer this question off the top of his head.

Tom's right, the other dingus could be used as a cunningham.

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Thank you both.  Also spoke with Chris (970 owner pkskier).  Perhaps he was just storing the dingus or perhaps that's how he do.  Anyway, yes, pad eye to rotation arm is the correct way.  Thank you.  I'm going to try the other as the cunningham per Chris as well.  No reef hook to be found.  I some have some soft shackles, so perhaps that's how he connected to the cringles.  That you all again. It's my birthday, so you know what that means! Boat trailer mods while boat is in a slip.  I'm crazy like that.

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2 minutes ago, deminimis said:

  I'm going to try the other as the cunningham per Chris as well.  No reef hook to be found.  I some have some soft shackles, so perhaps that's how he connected to the cringles.

I've used the Cunningham with a hook as the slab reef tensioner at the mast for my last two boats and quite like the setup. 

For that matter I've also put a hook on my outhaul and used that on all reef points as well.

The standard reef lines at the clew are just used to get control of the sail and take the vertical loads, while the standard outhaul shapes the reefs in the exact same manner as the full main.  

I've also tried soft shackles as you've indicated, and they work, but are just a bit slower and more fiddly. 

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I don't use a reef hook at the tack.  I have a spectra line tied to the top block.  That line goes up and thru the tack (or reef) cringle then back down a few inches to a large cheek block on the mast that was part of an old reefing system, then down thru the 1/2" eye bolt that held the mast raising yoke, then back up to the boom crank handle on the front of the mast.  The end of this line has an eye splice that is placed thru the handle before the handle is inserted into its nesting hole in the mast.  This spectra line eye thru the nested crank handle is the dead end of the cunningham and provides a 2:1 (via the tack cringle) to the block and tackle part. This is a fail safe when reefing to ensure that I remove the cunningham line before I roll the main up on the boom.  I have put myself in serious jeopardy by forgetting to unreave the cunningham line from the tack cringle:  When I started rolling up the main for a reef, that cunningham line rolled up with the sail till it "two blocked" and the main/boom would roll up no further.  Oh oh.  I had to unroll 6 feet of main to remove the cunningham line (or, it could have been a reef hook) from the cringle.  The unrolled main caught the 25 knot wind and caused a big snafu to get under control.  Never again with my fail safe.  I could draw a diagram if the above is unclear.

I mention the old reef cheek block on the mast as this is important.  You need to somehow secure the tack of the reefed main to the mast.  Reaving the spectra cunningham line back thru the cheek block does this.  If you don't do this you run the real risk of ripping the lower part of your bolt rope off of the main, (a Tidestrack or mast car system may prevent this though).  The cunningham only pulls the sail down, there is nothing holding my mains'l to the mast except the bolt rope as it exits the mast-slot cutout.  Most masts don't have this cheek block and those folks use a strap or line thru the reef cringle and around the mast to hold the reefed tack against the mast.  This is important for a bolt rope/roller boom reef system and maybe not so much for a more traditional reef but you should look carefully at your set up to ensure this.  

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Sorry to beat this pony, but I kept thinking about the mast rotation preventer.  I kept wondering if it made more sense to have it attached to the boom (as opposed to cabin top) so the mast angle (or max mast angle), in relation to the boom, would remain the same on all points of sail.  If mounted to the cabin pad eye, one would have to change the length of the dingus as one changes points of sail.  Reading through the manual this AM, I just found this: 

This acts as more of a preventer than a positive control. The mast will naturally rotate in s position generally in line with the apparent breeze. The control line will prevent the mast from over rotating. A line from the boom has the advantage of being self-tacking by maintaining the mast at a constant rotation angle relative to the boom on all points of sail. However, the control line will have to be detached from a roller furling boom and transferred to an eye on the deck when furling the main. A control line from the deck is also self-tacking, but it does not automatically adjust for different angles of sail.

 

Since I'm all about easy at this stage of the game, I'll stick with the PO's boom mounting setup.

Much to learn I have, this young padawan.

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Since you are set up for slab reefing, it makes sense to control mast rotation at the boom.  You don't need multipurchase tackle either.  Simplest would be to replace the eye on the bottom of the boom with a jam cleat (which is how it is done on an F242).  You could also move the mainsheet attachment to directly over the traveler so the boom is pulled down instead of down and in.  That does reduce a little leach tension, though.

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Our rotation preventer is on the deck, but I sometimes wish it was on the boom for the reasons mentioned above. 

We have dual controls for port and starboard rotation, and one slight advantage of having on the deck is that you can induce rotation in light air when the pressure on the sail is insufficient to rotate the mast on its own. Another slight advantage is that it puts less strain on the gooseneck.

Operationally I think I'd still rather have it on the boom all things considered.

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My current boat (not corsair/farrier so off topic a little) is boomless.  It came with rotation inducers but I don't bother to rig them.  My experience with other boomless boats showed they weren't needed if main was trimmed correctly.  It is a little boat, though, compared to most, so scaled up it might be useful.  Any F25C with boomless or F22s want to opine?

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Just saw this thread.... another new (to us) 970 owner here.  We are on Leech Lake in Minnesota and are loving the 970 so far.  We are/were monohull sailors and this is our first tri so we have a lot to learn.

 

 

IMG_20210704_154324065.jpg

 

 

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2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

My current boat (not corsair/farrier so off topic a little) is boomless.  It came with rotation inducers but I don't bother to rig them.  My experience with other boomless boats showed they weren't needed if main was trimmed correctly.  It is a little boat, though, compared to most, so scaled up it might be useful.  Any F25C with boomless or F22s want to opine?

Boomless F22 (which I named Boom! ) was ok most times cruising with no controls on rotation, but for racing we had port and starboard controls which were excellent. Only way to get 90 degree lock in light conditions downwind, as well as many other specific conditions. Especially important to be able to quickly lock rig in waves, even motoring where a free moving mast is not nice.

Ian did not think it was needed but we convinced him otherwise.

Peter H

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2 hours ago, plywoodboy said:

Boomless F22 (which I named Boom! ) was ok most times cruising with no controls on rotation, but for racing we had port and starboard controls which were excellent. Only way to get 90 degree lock in light conditions downwind, as well as many other specific conditions. Especially important to be able to quickly lock rig in waves, even motoring where a free moving mast is not nice.

Ian did not think it was needed but we convinced him otherwise.

Peter H

Thanks.  Those are the conditions I felt some need as well as going deep downwind when I have the main loosely sheeted for very deep running with spin up.  Doesn't happen often enough to warrant rigging the dinguses.  

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3 hours ago, plywoodboy said:

Boomless F22 (which I named Boom! ) was ok most times cruising with no controls on rotation, but for racing we had port and starboard controls which were excellent. Only way to get 90 degree lock in light conditions downwind, as well as many other specific conditions. Especially important to be able to quickly lock rig in waves, even motoring where a free moving mast is not nice.

Ian did not think it was needed but we convinced him otherwise.

Peter H

So you’re current boat should be named Boomless.

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17 hours ago, prskier17 said:

Just saw this thread.... another new (to us) 970 owner here.  We are on Leech Lake in Minnesota and are loving the 970 so far.  We are/were monohull sailors and this is our first tri so we have a lot to learn.

 

 

IMG_20210704_154324065.jpg

 

 

Nice.  I gotta ask, what happened to the last 3 feet of your mainsail or ... why does your stackpack not extend the length of the boom?

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Corsair moved the traveler aft around 2017 (year of Chris' boat).  With my '15, for example, the outboard bench seats straddle the traveler.  To accommodate the more aft traveler, Corsair extended the boom.

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