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Cheap fast cheerful next step from sailboard?


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Ah the Laser, of course and by default. And Bruce just having passed on a couple weeks ago. Imagine a club with a fleet of Lasers one could rent. Nope - gotta buy in. There are about 34 of them there by my count half of them racing on a good night. Speed is what's lacking for me - not sure I saw one break 9.5 in Enoshima the other day, and in what was to my eye some decent wind.

But thank you; have been giving it consideration all the same.

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So you want to go fast.

Sitting/hiking, consider a foiler - UFOs and Waszps -- and while not as cheap as a 2nd hand laser, you can find some opportunities. 

If you are up for trapezing, options include a Musto Skiff, Swift Solo, or single-hand a 29er. 

There are some sitting/hiking skiffs (RS 100).

All these discussed in this forum aplenty.

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Thanks - I know enough to know that some of the is out of my league, but the Waszps are interesting and there is in opportunity to rent them for a regatta thing in September in Toronto. Def thinking about that.

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I suppose it is a relative term, but in my own context, a person who can justify spending high four figures on a leisure item is 'rich'.

I must confess though that I posed the question in part  to sanity-check my initial thought which was: single-handed catamaran. Not sure how it would go over at the club - not sure I care at this point.

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17 hours ago, Cubist said:

Eventually you just want to sit down for a bit, but still want to go fast, but have never sailed a boat, and are not rich.

 

I have a 4.5m Nacra cat that some ex windsurfing buddies also enjoy. Paid about as much for it as for a couple of windsurfing sails. Less that I paid for a board in the 90s.

Not as fast, but we crash less. And can actually tack the cat, which is nice. Sail in lighter winds than we used to windsurf in - but we got silly with little 4.0 sails on wave boards for a while.

 

Edit - just saw the other suggestions for a cat. So I second those suggestions

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15 hours ago, Cubist said:

Speed is what's lacking for me

And you're likely not going to find that endorphin rush if you're comfortable playing on a 4.0.  I used to live for flat water speed runs at Bird Island and the Brownsville ditch.  Sold the J/22 because it was so damn slow and boring that it rarely got used.  Even our Hobie seemed tame by comparison.  But I got old and one adjusts. 

But yeah, consider a multihull.  In addition to the cats, there's also the Weta trimaran.  I call mine a floating Barcalounger.  Or Barcaloafer.  Damn comfy and one gets the sensation of speed.  But it's all relative.

 

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17 hours ago, Cubist said:

Ah the Laser, of course and by default. And Bruce just having passed on a couple weeks ago. Imagine a club with a fleet of Lasers one could rent. Nope - gotta buy in. There are about 34 of them there by my count half of them racing on a good night. Speed is what's lacking for me - not sure I saw one break 9.5 in Enoshima the other day, and in what was to my eye some decent wind.

But thank you; have been giving it consideration all the same.

Broad reaching - YouTube

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Thanks for the great ideas - much to think on.

Keelboats: Man is that buyers market up here - "take my 70s era Tanzer 22, please." Especially in the fall. Too much bother for me at this time. (non-sailing wife, non-sailing kids, non-sailing house) Besides I get my fix helping friends with theirs - I come away smiling to myself, thinking  "I can just walk away."

Used cats seem like good value if sound. Weta is cool too. Will check out N4.5 and IC.

Laser guy Emilio: Point made - well done.

This has actually lead to another criterion. Mast stepped and hand-launched by one. That's a bit of a concern maybe with the cats.

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Cubist said:

 

This has actually lead to another criterion. Mast stepped and hand-launched by one. That's a bit of a concern maybe with the cats.

 

A-Class cats are launched by one, but do not meet the criterion of cheap. 

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1 hour ago, bourdidn said:

I am picking up a weta and bringing it to Hamilton ON this weekend. Feel free to reach out to me if you want to try it.

That's great - I used to live an hour from there. Where did you find it?

Thanks for the offer - I do occasionally pass thorugh. From where will you launch?

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8 hours ago, Cubist said:

That's great - I used to live an hour from there. Where did you find it?

Thanks for the offer - I do occasionally pass thorugh. From where will you launch?

I have been looking at Craigslist throughout the midwest and kijiji. I guess I lucked out. According to the Canadian importer in Toronto, they sold quite a few, but most went to lake camps and were never heard of since then.

I will probably join the Burlington Sailing and Boating Club. Low key, convenient from where I am, affordable, friendly people.

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13 hours ago, bourdidn said:

I guess I lucked out.

Cool news. There's a good Weta Anarchy thread on the multi-hull forum here. Lots of videos on youtube, several community sites, etc.

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Simple, stay as a windsurfer and buy a D2 from Onehundredboardz, then be the envy of everyone, everywhere.

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17 hours ago, Dart96 said:

Simple, stay as a windsurfer and buy a D2 from Onehundredboardz, then be the envy of everyone, everywhere.

Cool.  I didn't realize Division 2 boards were still around.  I got to play with one for a few hours in 89 or 90.  Since I have an 88 Mistral Equipe, I thought I'd be able to just jump on and go.  Humbling.

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I've owned lots of multis and just sold my Weta.  Lots of great things about the Weta but I'd like something simpler so dinghies are of great interest to me at the moment.  The Fulcrum dinghy looks pretty darn good.  The Evo and a couple of the RS boats too.  

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4 hours ago, mundt said:

The Fulcrum dinghy looks pretty darn good.

I had been looking at that, too. Simple and quick to rig are additional criteria that occurred to me - so that may narrow it down some. As I think about this more, a complex boat that takes more than 15 minutes to rig just doesn't make sense for me right now. Maybe one day, but not now.

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Even though I kept the Weta mast up and assembled it still took some time and effort to rig and sailing it was also pretty busy due to the 3 sails etc.  If you had to assemble and rig it every time you sailed (as well as disassembly) you would be putting in significant time and effort. I really like the idea of one, easy to use sail and a mast that’s super easy to step for one person. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

If I knew how to windurf and lived in a place with good conditions for it I'm not sure if any cheap and cheerful dinghy except maybe a beachcat can compare speed-wise

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7 hours ago, Speng said:

If I knew how to windurf and lived in a place with good conditions for it I'm not sure if any cheap and cheerful dinghy except maybe a beachcat can compare speed-wise

It is tough to beat windsurfing if your live in the right place.  I agree with your sentiment that you won't match the speed, but a lot of the pleasure of speed comes from being on the edge of control.  Cross-country skiing can be terrifying at 15 mph if your not very skilled like me.  Sailing a board in flat water at 40 knots feels fast, but so does planing a dinghy at 12 knots in choppy water.   I've gone from windsurfing to sailing a Flying Dutchman which has been a blast for me and my wife who also is a former short board windsurfer.  Its been a challenge with new things to learn even though we grew up sailing dinghies. The cool thing is we do it together.

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Not rich - Hobie 14 as easy single-handler. Hobie 16 as the boat to take a friend or two for a ride. Under $1000

I got my first generation wooden A-cat for $500. It wasn’t competitive, but it was a sweet and fast ride. Still very light and easy to rig. 
nacra 5.2, nacra 500, even Hobie 17, Nacra f17. Although these boats are a bit heavy for my likening. 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/10/2021 at 8:44 AM, CrazyR said:

Not rich - Hobie 14 as easy single-handler. Hobie 16 as the boat to take a friend or two for a ride. Under $1000

I got my first generation wooden A-cat for $500. It wasn’t competitive, but it was a sweet and fast ride. Still very light and easy to rig. 
nacra 5.2, nacra 500, even Hobie 17, Nacra f17. Although these boats are a bit heavy for my likening. 

 

I have a soft offer of a ride in on a cat, early fall - so that should enlightening.

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5 hours ago, Cubist said:

I have a soft offer of a ride in on a cat, early fall - so that should enlightening.

A trapeze powered cat is going to be a lot faster. A trapeze powered anyting is faster than a boat that's not

There's always a trade off between weight, speed and durability.

A class cats are fast but can be fragile.

But you've mentioned your local club. Getting involved in a club and joining the races is a good way of maximising your enjoyment from a boat, learning to sail it better and having a good social time as well.

There's an old addage that you chose your club and then your boat. Turning up with a cat to a club that presently only has monos is not going to get the best out of your membership or participation.

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1 hour ago, Rambler said:

There's an old adage that you chose your club and then your boat. Turning up with a cat to a club that presently only has monos is not going to get the best out of your membership or participation.

There is a lot of truth to this. But in the U.S., dinghy sailing is balkanized and so diminished from the 70s. The exception to this is to choose a class that you can find many events at within a reasonable distance. For me, luckily, two of these classes happened to be both a long time favorite to race since the 80s, and the other a lifelong dream---505 and canoe, respectively.

Other examples of classes to choose from would be for instance a Shields if you live in R.I., a Viper 640 or an F-18 cat in southern New England, or a Thistle if you live in Ohio or pretty much anywhere in PA or NJ or a number of other regions around the country. In other areas the Snipe or the Windmill will have a variety of events to get to etc.

For me, I have no club near me that sails the favorites, so I sail yet other boats at my club. Right now I have 4 sailboats! Partly that is because dinghies are cheap almost free much of the time.

 

 

 

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My Dad makes the same point - race what people race at your club.  Seems as though all roads lead to Laser. Another interesting thought struck me a few weeks ago: Maybe this solo thing is misguided. I started looking at what OD keelboats were being raced at my club and thought about forming a 'syndicate' with some of my WS fleet-mates. Some already have keelboats for cruising, but I proposed that three or four of us come together and purchase one of the cheaper locally raced OD boats expressly for the purpose of racing it. There was some initial interest, but it kind of waned. I'm back now to looking at dinghies. I have also realized that flat our speed is not necessary. I have windsurfing for blasting about.

Thanks all responders for the suggestions and insights - they've really helped me surface the options.

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On 7/27/2021 at 11:33 PM, martin 'hoff said:

So you want to go fast.

Sitting/hiking, consider a foiler - UFOs and Waszps -- and while not as cheap as a 2nd hand laser, you can find some opportunities. 

If you are up for trapezing, options include a Musto Skiff, Swift Solo, or single-hand a 29er. 

There are some sitting/hiking skiffs (RS 100).

All these discussed in this forum aplenty.

All of those are a hell of a learning curve for someone currently sailing a board. At least as a direct step. A high probability of discouragement, IMO. I know a pretty skilled long-board racer who attempted the transition to a Musto Skiff. "How hard can it be?" he thought. He found out. Now sailing easier boats.

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8 hours ago, Cubist said:

My Dad makes the same point - race what people race at your club. 

Yes, if racing is what you want to do. If you haven't tried it, you may not really know. I transitioned from short board blasting and long board racing to dinghies and keelboats in my late 20s. Having awareness of wind and currents is helpful, otherwise there's less cross-over of skills than you might think. Some race fleets (by no means all) can contain quite aggressive people and this can be off-putting if you don't like that aspect of sport (I don't much). My advice, FWIW, is to crew a few different types of boats and get a feel for what you most enjoy.

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29 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

All of those are a hell of a learning curve for someone currently sailing a board. At least as a direct step. A high probability of discouragement, IMO. I know a pretty skilled long-board racer who attempted the transition to a Musto Skiff. "How hard can it be?" he thought. He found out. Now sailing easier boats.

Sounds like a grumpy soul. 

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40 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Yes, if racing is what you want to do. If you haven't tried it, you may not really know. I transitioned from short board blasting and long board racing to dinghies and keelboats in my late 20s. Having awareness of wind and currents is helpful, otherwise there's less cross-over of skills than you might think. Some race fleets (by no means all) can contain quite aggressive people and this can be off-putting if you don't like that aspect of sport (I don't much). My advice, FWIW, is to crew a few different types of boats and get a feel for what you most enjoy.

I think it is in as much is it is what I like to do on sailboard. We race a with the dinghies weekly.

 

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3 hours ago, Cubist said:

I think it is in as much is it is what I like to do on sailboard. We race a with the dinghies weekly.

 

In the 70s we had windsurfers, lasers, comets, gp14 etc all on the course togethrr. Then windsurfers became uncool and useless sinker sailboards going back and forth became all the rage. Then they disappeared.

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2 hours ago, fastyacht said:

In the 70s we had windsurfers, lasers, comets, gp14 etc all on the course togethrr. Then windsurfers became uncool and useless sinker sailboards going back and forth became all the rage. Then they disappeared.

The 70s even. Yeah - same situation. But just a very few of us on longboards, plus the KONA One (aka: the last best hope) I don't see the WS racing fleet holding on much longer.

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2 hours ago, Norm01 said:

windsurfer LT is popular in our parts - has bought a lot of people back who drifted away after going thru longboard/shortboards/wavr boards etc

close fleet racing 

https://windsurferlt.com/

Had not seen this. I'm guessing this is an evolution Matt Schweitzer's "Original Windsurfer" revival? But the whole Idea of one sail for racing is problematic to me because it ends up being not entirely, but at least somewhat, about weight. Kona One attempts to address that problem with weight/sail classes. Still, interesting to see this - thanks.

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On 8/23/2021 at 4:35 AM, dogwatch said:

All of those are a hell of a learning curve for someone currently sailing a board. At least as a direct step. A high probability of discouragement, IMO. I know a pretty skilled long-board racer who attempted the transition to a Musto Skiff. "How hard can it be?" he thought. He found out. Now sailing easier boats.

Depends on the person, attitude, and fitness. I've seen people with virtually no dinghy experience transition from wind surfers to quite high performance dinghies seemingly effortlessly. And I've seen others try and flame out hard. I put a friend who had been windsurfing for the last five years in an IC and he had it down in a matter of hours. Did the same thing with a different guy a year or two earlier - guy tried valiantly for ages but never got the hang of it.

So, what you can sail will somewhat depend on how much you're prepared to stick with it, how quickly you get tired after a capsize or two, and how much you're prepared not to get discouraged after a few missteps. My only advice would be this - there are plenty (well, some) good dinghy fleets with solid racing out there. However while a bunch of these fleets offer great racing, the boat itself may not actually be that fun to sail. So whatever you pick, pick something that's fun to sail on your own. That's one of the main value props of a windsurfer and should be a value prop of your boat.

Best,
Willy

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10 hours ago, Willy Clark said:

So, what you can sail will somewhat depend on how much you're prepared to stick with it, how quickly you get tired after a capsize or two, and how much you're prepared not to get discouraged after a few missteps.

Ah well, you can tell the grumpy soul that his failure to get grips with a Musto Skiff was due to poor fitness and a lack of moral fibre. I don't plan to.

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@Will Clark's last two lines speak to the essential question: What give's you the greatest enjoyment,  the most value? Is it competitive racing in an large established fleet. Or is it an outsider boat that delights by virtue of her dynamics? Over the course of this summer I have taken a renewed pleasure in my board-sailing. Both racing and blasting about. Obviously racing ,is not going to turn a boat you generally dislike into one you enjoy.

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On 9/2/2021 at 8:29 AM, Cubist said:

@Will Clark's last two lines speak to the essential question: What give's you the greatest enjoyment,  the most value? Is it competitive racing in an large established fleet. Or is it an outsider boat that delights by virtue of her dynamics? Over the course of this summer I have taken a renewed pleasure in my board-sailing. Both racing and blasting about. Obviously racing ,is not going to turn a boat you generally dislike into one you enjoy.

What kind of board sailing do you do @Cubist? Not many dinghies will match the enjoyment and thrill of windsurfing. Sticking a foil under your board might reignite the obsession, have you tried that? 

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@gui I do longboard round the buoys racing with the dinghies and of course a bit blasting about when time/wind permit.  The foils seem to be  the next big thing for sure. When the hype dies down and used gear starts showing up at reasonable prices, I may give it a go.

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