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I have doubts about the AC in Cork. The human constitution is just not designed to handle unrelenting waves of Irish hospitality. We are not taking about the 505 worlds at HISC before the club was mod

Cork Harbour is in the People’s Republic of Cork which is an entirely different state (of mind) to the rest of the country! As much as I would love to see the AC come to Cork I’d have to ask why is

Let me get this straight: so, the Irish government would have to front expenses for 99MNZ$ = 60M€, plus forking out 60M€ more to a foreign, private entity with a record of dodgy accounting. This, whil

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34 minutes ago, P Flados said:

And where does the penalty money go.  If any of it goes to Dalton, this would seem to be one of the biggest shit moves of all times.

I suppose you could ask that question about financial controllers of any team that enters and gets a share in the (unlikely IMO) event the $20M does get paid. 

The real point of it is to incentivize the class continuation. But unlike the voluntary Framework Agreement in Bermuda, this time it is compulsory to sign this tougher (penalty-loaded) version of the 'Framework Agreement.'  

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36 minutes ago, P Flados said:

And where does the penalty money go.  If any of it goes to Dalton, this would seem to be one of the biggest shit moves of all times.

It should go to NZL, as it was the tax payer that paid for the development of the AC75s, right?

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The purpose of the $20M penalty - split equally to all of the teams was two-fold behind the scenes.  1) One "potential new team" expressed concerned that they would invest heavily in building an AC75 and these AC40s only to switch to something completely different in AC38. 2) The NYYC (not American Magic) mentioning at the end of AC36 about these boats being too expensive.

All teams who participated in AC36 knew well in advance and wink wink, nod nod supported this remaining in the protocol.  Plus the $20M penalty is split across all of the AC37 participants.  It encourages new team(s)

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2 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

It should go to NZL, as it was the tax payer that paid for the development of the AC75s, right?

Going to the NZL government would be more appropriate than going to GD. 

However, in other threads more details on where it goes have been shared.  Also of note is that it needs to be based on actual damages.  A vindictive victorious challenger could make it hard on GD to collect an ETNZ share.  

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Hopefully Australia. Sydney Harbour or Hamilton Island would be great venues. Dan B said Mcconaghy boats has the contract to build the 40's, so maybe there's a late deal in the works.

No Wild Oats XI campaign this year, and the boat isn't getting any younger, so maybe the Oatley's have decided to do something different with their cash.

An Aussie challenger led by Glenn Ashby and Tom Slingsby?

 

 

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6 minutes ago, trt131 said:

But Clarkey, I thought you hate all Aussies, you and the nut farmer in Byron Bay.

I don't "Hate" anyone.

Kiwi's and Aussies have a healthy rivalry. 

I do enjoy it when they get their asses kicked on the field/ pitch/ water. As do most Kiwi's.

 

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12 minutes ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Is this article actually a  "paid advertisement by Grant Dalton"?

"The document estimates it could cost up to €50m to prepare these sites for the event.

The State, if it decides to proceed with the bid, will have to pay a further €55m for the right to host the event and on TV rights, but a cost-benefit analysis has shown the event could be worth an estimated €500m to the economy."

it would seem so. but what a bargain.. 

strange. but true AC fans (and cognoscenti) I guess are the most cynical about the true value of the cup. yacht club hosted regatta - or - world sport behemoth. I'm kinda leaning towards the former..

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So if this is the case, it would vindicate what Dalton has said all along. Dunphy's currently unavailable 40mil wouldn't be enough to pay the hosting fee, let alone have enough left to do anything else. If Dunphy's bid went ahead, he'd have to scratch and scrape up the extra 15mil just for the hosting fee, then have to cancel the event because he doesn't have the money for anything else.

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49 minutes ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Is this article actually a  "paid advertisement by Grant Dalton"?

My guess is Yes, in the sense that GD is paying Origin Sports Group to try sell Ireland/Cork on it. He referred to them in the Prot presser, one of the names was a ‘Leslie.’ On the other hand, there seems to be a demand by whoever-all to keep things secret for whatever-all reason despite there being public interest. Irish papers had to do FOIs to get any info at all; these pics could have been leaked. 
 

There are at least two public politicians also trying to push it; hopefully they aren’t on the take :) 

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30 minutes ago, floater said:

"The document estimates it could cost up to €50m to prepare these sites for the event.

The State, if it decides to proceed with the bid, will have to pay a further €55m for the right to host the event and on TV rights, but a cost-benefit analysis has shown the event could be worth an estimated €500m to the economy."

it would seem so. but what a bargain.. 

strange. but true AC fans (and cognoscenti) I guess are the most cynical about the true value of the cup. yacht club hosted regatta - or - world sport behemoth. I'm kinda leaning towards the former..

It is going to be the same argument that some politicians stated in September then it fell apart at the 11th hour - if this thing could actually generate 500M euros, then why isn't NZ/Auckland forking over the money.  --- and then it fails to get approved.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

My guess is Yes, in the sense that GD is paying Origin Sports Group to try sell Ireland/Cork on it. He referred to them in the Prot presser, one of the names was a ‘Leslie.’ On the other hand, there seems to be a demand by whoever-all to keep things secret for whatever-all reason despite there being public interest. Irish papers had to do FOIs to get any info at all; these pics could have been leaked. 
 

There are at least two public politicians also trying to push it; hopefully they aren’t on the take :) 

Recent articles in Ireland published after the newspapers received some limited info on venue proposals through FOI requests: There were some dates given and I wonder if any overlapped with the three months ‘exclusive negotiating period’ in Auckland? 

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23 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Considering TE said Cork was "Dead" weeks ago, not too bad, not too bad at all.

"However, this needs significant national government investment and cannot be funded by the local authorities who both had to pass difficult budgets lately....."

In other words this has no f'ing chance of getting approved.

Is Richard Gladwell, Russell Green and Grant Dalton ghost writing the articles........

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57 minutes ago, Chobani Sailor said:

"However, this needs significant national government investment and cannot be funded by the local authorities who both had to pass difficult budgets lately....."

In other words this has no f'ing chance of getting approved.

Is Richard Gladwell, Russell Green and Grant Dalton ghost writing the articles........

Of course it does! But they've already managed to bring the costs down significantly.

So I'd say theres a pretty f'ing high chance it gets approved.

Sometimes you have to spend money to make money. Sitting on your hands and waiting for money to magically appear seems counter productive.

Looks like Cork is the front runner again.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40751241.html

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57 minutes ago, Chobani Sailor said:

"However, this needs significant national government investment and cannot be funded by the local authorities who both had to pass difficult budgets lately....."

In other words this has no f'ing chance of getting approved.

Is Richard Gladwell, Russell Green and Grant Dalton ghost writing the articles........

The way things are starting to look in Auckland, Cork and/or OSG may want to avoid being a party to any lawsuits. Farmer made a tangential reference to that possibility on his blog entry.

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

Of course it does! But they've already managed to bring the costs down significantly.

So I'd say there a pretty f'ing high chance it gets approved.

Sometimes you have to spend money to make money. Sitting on your hands and waiting for money to magically appear seems counter productive.

Looks like Cork is the front runner again.

And the same Irish politicians that killed this in September will kill this again with the same rhetoric - if this can really raise 500M why isn't New Zealand giving Grant Dalton, Russell Green and ETNZ the $120M that they need.

The front runner is that Grant Dalton resigns, NZ government then works with new ETNZ management to fund the event. 

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1 minute ago, Stingray~ said:

The way things are starting to look in Auckland, Cork and/or OSG may want to avoid being a party to any lawsuits. Farmer made a tangential reference to that possibility on his blog entry.

So Farmer is just going to sue everyone in the world now? ,lol

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Just now, Chobani Sailor said:

And the same Irish politicians that killed this in September will kill this again with the same rhetoric - if this can really raise 500M why isn't New Zealand giving Grant Dalton, Russell Green and ETNZ the $120M that they need.

The front runner is that Grant Dalton resigns, NZ government then works with new ETNZ management to fund the event. 

Because the $120M doesn't exist in NZ, just like Dalton said.

Okay Tucker

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On 11/24/2021 at 7:50 PM, Stingray~ said:

Pics being pitched to the Dept of Sport

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40751241.html

 

Artist's impression of the race area outside the Cork Harbour entrance.

 

I've never been to cork, but i assumed that since this is AC75 it would be an inshore event.

it looks like it's going outside the harbour, so fully exposed to the irish sea.

first thing to come up on a youtube search. looks fresh

 

 

 

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so i suppose you've got to work around a 40km roundtrip under tow each day.

i guess they would do a lot of testing on the inner harbour

 

image.png.aac47ab489ce68f7640bcbde8bc3a7ac.png

 

 

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2755293_9_articlelarge_image_2824_29.jpg

team bases for australia, china and japan on the end there.

I think they can bring the budget down as they won't be needing those (sorry Ernesto, you can play next time)

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1 hour ago, shebeen said:

 

first thing to come up on a youtube search. looks fresh

Don't be deceived, Its not always as nice as that. I've been there when its properly rough ;)

But I do love that area. 

Hospitality can be awesome (like the woman at our B&B who insisted on cooking a massive breakfast at 3am because we had to start the next of a race early). Or the guiness sponsored party (don't recall that as clearly though)

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5 hours ago, shebeen said:

 

image.png.aac47ab489ce68f7640bcbde8bc3a7ac.png

 

This is what I have been curious about since Cork was first brought up.  I raced there two years and it does not seem ideal for AC.  The inner harbour is okish on the e/w axist, but is pretty narrow to try to set up a course on the N/S axis if that is the wind direction.  And the Outer area is highly variable, can be flat as a mill pond or can have big swell even on lightish wind days.  Seems like a place where there could be significant shenanigans in race management which favor a particular boat design.

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There are other plans around showing inshore courses on a SW/NE axis. Tbh I think you guys are drawing too many conclusions from a couple of fuzzy diagrams. And yes, I’ve raced there.

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7 hours ago, dogwatch said:

There are other plans around showing inshore courses on a SW/NE axis. Tbh I think you guys are drawing too many conclusions from a couple of fuzzy diagrams. And yes, I’ve raced there.

But there remains a chance of wrong wind direction for inner harbor and bad sea state for open ocean courses?

Race officer going to be a popular guy

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15 hours ago, shebeen said:

 

so i suppose you've got to work around a 40km roundtrip under tow each day.

i guess they would do a lot of testing on the inner harbour

 

image.png.aac47ab489ce68f7640bcbde8bc3a7ac.png

 

 

really nice, thanks for producing this geo-perspective

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2 hours ago, shebeen said:

But there remains a chance of wrong wind direction for inner harbor and bad sea state for open ocean 

Certainly. But there’s no guarantee of good sailing conditions anywhere. Cork has similar conditions to Brittany or UK south coast, dominated much of the time by Atlantic low pressure systems. In summer, most afternoons deliver a good sailing breeze. The pilotage videos are winter conditions, which can be fierce. So can summer but rarely.

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1 minute ago, dogwatch said:

Certainly. But there’s no guarantee of good sailing conditions anywhere. Cork has similar conditions to Brittany or UK south coast, dominated much of the time by Atlantic low pressure systems. In summer, most afternoons deliver a good sailing breeze.

Not sure these boats are safe in a good sailing breeze...

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Certainly. But there’s no guarantee of good sailing conditions anywhere. Cork has similar conditions to Brittany or UK south coast, dominated much of the time by Atlantic low pressure systems. In summer, most afternoons deliver a good sailing breeze. The pilotage videos are winter conditions, which can be fierce. So can summer but rarely.

yes but, to state the obvious.

you pick a location for the likelyhood of good conditions, SailGP are having big issues on this one particularly.

you pick it for good racing (or sceptically, to suit the boat you're defending with).

if we look back, AC34 SanFran, AC35 Bermuda and to a lesser extent AC36 in auckland had great conditions.

 

I don't see these boats racing in big swell or wind vs swell

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

The pilotage videos are winter conditions, which can be fierce. So can summer but rarely.

I wouldn't say rarely. I just counted up and from those I can remember I have 40% of the times I have sailed near there (including going round the Fastnet) it has been a gale

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1 hour ago, shebeen said:

you pick a location for the likelyhood of good conditions

If you design a class for the wind and wave conditions of Auckland and decide to go somewhere else, you are in the realms of compromise. For a couple of decades, every 2nd year, 100s of boats travelled from around NW Europe to sail in Cork Week. On the whole, it provided great racing. Then the locals started charging epically stupid money for crew houses and the event faded away. Now a local regatta.

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11 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Supposedly Napoleon asked if potential generals were lucky. I don't think I'll be going on a sailing trip with you.

Partly due to predominance of Fastnets which means it coincides with a movement in the jet stream which brings greater winds.

But depends on your definition of luck. One of those gales (not a Fastnet) was storm force and we just kept the boat together (repairing and jury rigging as we went) to win when a lot of others struggled. 

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I've done 3 Fastnets, none involved a gale. One was solid F7 most of the way back from the rock. We only had two helms who could drive the boat powered up in those conditions, I was one of them and my back muscles hurt for days afterwards. 

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25 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

I've done 3 Fastnets, none involved a gale. One was solid F7 most of the way back from the rock. We only had two helms who could drive the boat powered up in those conditions, I was one of them and my back muscles hurt for days afterwards. 

Then you are the one who is unlucky, Fastnet in a gale is iconic ;)

My worst was that storm on the double handed round Britain. Two-up on a 30' water ballasted ULDB in a gale or above from the leg start at the exit of Cork harbour all the way up the west coast of Ireland (upwind). Seriously knackering. 3 reefs down and a storm jib. Bailing buckets of water out every hour. Number of breakages. Jury rig for some items to keep us going. Huge seas (especially when I took us offshore to the edge of the shelf). When helming (which we had to as the auto-helm was bust) we were getting slammed by these massive waves coming over the decks. That storm stretched our lead from 2 hours to 18 IIRC

As Dickens put it "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times"

 

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

I wouldn't say rarely. I just counted up and from those I can remember I have 40% of the times I have sailed near there (including going round the Fastnet) it has been a gale

 

Just now, enigmatically2 said:

Then you are the one who is unlucky, Fastnet in a gale is iconic ;)

So you have sailed there 5 times, and must have been very unlucky with 2 gales. 4 Out of 10 would have been impossible, imho.

I count just 1 out of 15, and that was the iconic one.
Wouldn't necessarily say I was lucky, as so many good not say anything anymore.

And even 1 in 15 would seem high to me, in the summer anyway.

 

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2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

My worst was that storm on the double handed round Britain. Two-up on a 30' water ballasted ULDB in a gale or above from the leg start at the exit of Cork harbour all the way up the west coast of Ireland.

 

Sticky Fingers?

I am jealous, always wanted to do Round Britain. 

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3 hours ago, pusslicker said:

Front runner in a race with no competitors?

Anyone got anything better to do! :P

or maybe the "Not dead yet" skit is better...

 

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14 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40776033.html

Cork seems definitly the Frontrunner to get the gig!

I might sound like someone totally unrelated to this circus, but the whole thing with needing to be at the venue upfront is surely a non starter for cork as it's just a summer option (NH summer, no SH summer clause in here!!).

image.png.e489da368ee46965d099ca54dae4cea9.png

 

so everyone would go to cork. sail around for a few months (making sure not to come within 400m of each other). and then piss off somewhere else when the weather goes crap. doesn't sound like a cost reducing decision for challengers

current weather for the 3 potential venues

image.png.2a27acdcb18bf7db3bfd5c046b0602ed.png

 

image.png.34fca5cf6f18ab9d3dc1462be338645a.png

image.png.f4237d678db2ab80979c61ab826ef27d.png

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All good weather in my book, although in Fiji we prefer a proper cyclone to go foiling.

You moaners are going on and on like abused kids, get a life for fuck sake.

 

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49 minutes ago, shebeen said:

I might sound like someone totally unrelated to this circus, but the whole thing with needing to be at the venue upfront is surely a non starter for cork as it's just a summer option (NH summer, no SH summer clause in here!!).

Newsflash, sailing in IRL and GBR is not a summer-only pastime.

'There's no such thing as bad weather, only unsuitable clothing.'

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From the link, does this suggest negotiations would only start at the end of March, should they decide to enter into negotiations by then?

But the clock is ticking with a decision from the state due on whether it wants to proceed with the bid, and move to final contract negotiations with the race organisers, expected by the end of March.

Am not seeing anything new in the article except for the 'technical team' visit. Who is that, a Cork County City/Council thing? And this suggests they do not yet have the Sports Minister onboard.

Political support for the event is also building, with Cork County Council recently agreeing to write to TDs and the sports minister, Catherine Martin, seeking her support to secure the bid for Ireland.

 At least something is going on, I guess... at the Cork County Council level anyway.

 

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59 minutes ago, shebeen said:

I might sound like someone totally unrelated to this circus, but the whole thing with needing to be at the venue upfront is surely a non starter for cork as it's just a summer option (NH summer, no SH summer clause in here!!).

image.png.e489da368ee46965d099ca54dae4cea9.png

 

so everyone would go to cork. sail around for a few months (making sure not to come within 400m of each other). and then piss off somewhere else when the weather goes crap. doesn't sound like a cost reducing decision for challengers

current weather for the 3 potential venues

image.png.2a27acdcb18bf7db3bfd5c046b0602ed.png

 

image.png.34fca5cf6f18ab9d3dc1462be338645a.png

image.png.f4237d678db2ab80979c61ab826ef27d.png

Don't count Cork out! That Rule you gave there can be amended. Every AC Protocol has been amended in the built up to the competition. If Dalton deems Cork suitable that Boat Rule will be amended together with INEOS!

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1 hour ago, shebeen said:

so everyone would go to cork. sail around for a few months (making sure not to come within 400m of each other). and then piss off somewhere else when the weather goes crap. doesn't sound like a cost reducing decision for challengers

Agree, big cost-waster for the Challengers but it's presumably 'part of the deal' GD is trying to cut with Cork. The teams would likely ship off to the Med soon as they can after that Sep date, maybe to places like Cagliari as what Ineos did last time; that or launch the new AC75's later (avoid Cork in '23) and use LEQ12's and such at alternate locations instead during that 4-month '23/Cork time window.

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4 hours ago, Liquid said:

Team New Corkland

Team New Ireland

Irish Emirates Team New Zealand

 

Team New Zealand - brought to by Ireland!

Alinghi Team Spain, Oracle Team Australia/ Bermuda/ USA...

Who the fuck cares. 

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10 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Newsflash, sailing in IRL and GBR is not a summer-only pastime.

'There's no such thing as bad weather, only unsuitable clothing.'

okee dokee, I've seen the frostbite sailing vibe...does boggle my mind slightly. DoG ensures a summer regatta, so teams will optimise for the conditions they're expecting

 

So if it goes to Cork, All teams will be there for the mandatory jun-Sep23 window, essentially a dress reherseal for the real deal. Then they will ship boats back to their bases (or a NZ SH prelim regatta) and return in time for the event in mid "24.

My point is, if it is in the med, then teams can set up a base for the entire 16months and not have to move, cheaper for teams and bigger upside for the host.

interestingly the summer window for Jeddah makes it a totally different scenario (the 2022 Qatar FIFA WC had to be moved out of it's normal window for player safety - despite air conditioned stadiums)

image.png.8eee39202f79d034d3bc5d9c00ff72c3.png

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14 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Newsflash, sailing in IRL and GBR is not a summer-only pastime.

'There's no such thing as bad weather, only unsuitable clothing.'

True. But I'm not sure how much sailing these things would get in over winter in Cork. Particularly outside the harbour

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It varies. A lot of this winter to date has been fairly light winds. But as for the sea state outside the harbour in winter, I agree with you.

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4 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

True. But I'm not sure how much sailing these things would get in over winter in Cork. Particularly outside the harbour

I raced weekly thru one winter in Kinsale.  I think we only had one race cancelled. One or two moved to more protected course.  But these were ofc 'real' offshore boats, used to irish conditions.

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Sailing in the UK/Ireland during the winter means no sea breeze, so the choice generally works out as either high pressure = light and shite, or a depression = fresh and feisty. 

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