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This is a great question.   Here was my personal experience, I raced an olympic class internationally and competed on the college circuit for a well resourced and deep college team: A lot of it i

You're misunderstanding how (and why) college sailing works. College sailing in the US isn't about high-performance racing or international dinghy development. Its about one thing only: accessibility,

A massive contrast between the US and all the major competitive sailing countries was, and is....that dinghy sailing is categorised as being "for kids" and "real yachting" (keelboats) are for when you

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None of the successful sailing would think of using a college system .

 They all use types of squad systems the allow the best sailors of the country to sail against each other full time with out having to worry about earning a living .  They also employ the best coach’s and back room staff they can get.

Unless the USA changes, they unfortunately  will remain also rans .

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54 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

For those of us who in the rest of the world, what is the US college system and why does it prevent talent coming up?

Here is a good write up.

https://www.ussailing.org/news/dear-youth-sailors-sincerely-college-sailing/

And here is US Sailing’s Olympic development manifesto.

https://www.ussailing.org/olympics/olympic-development-program/#about-odp

Neither one mentions the other. That could be part of the problem.

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28 minutes ago, Bill5 said:

That's a lot of money for a sailing base. 

Seems like the other countries are just spending more monery. Throwing $$$ at the problem seems like the simple solution

 

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9 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

The universities in the UK sail. Most (not all) of the Olympic sailors don't go to university. Those that do wouldn't go university sailing. University sailing is for fun.

 

That's a major reason why Brits do so much better than Americans in Olympic sailing.

Along with sailing clubs on every gravel pit and Viking heritage and Nelson and Dunkirk and all that.

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44 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

University sailing is for fun.

 

Yeah. The uni circuit was a hell of a lot of fun. I particularly remember (or in some aspects don't) our Irish tour. BUSA could be wild too. Some fairly serious sailors on it though

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Money certainly seems like a good place to start.  Think the UK has put aside £20,000,000 for the next (3 year) cycle, you need one or two competitive teams per class, plus coaches and specialists, full time on the circuit, without being distracted by too much begging and uncertainty.  

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8 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Yeah. The uni circuit was a hell of a lot of fun. I particularly remember (or in some aspects don't) our Irish tour. BUSA could be wild too. Some fairly serious sailors on it though

BUSA, late 80’s Plymouth……lost more than a few brain cells……

Spending 3 or 4 years team racing underpowered dinghies is not the way to go….

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1. We do not have a well funded, well run, enthusiastic builder of any of the toys used in Olympic sailing races. 
2. we do not have a class association for  any of the Olympic sailing toys whose management is young, enthusiastic, in attendance at most regattas, dragging sailors out to play, present to the point of obnoxious on multiple sailing forums, and helping multiple sailors to obtain berths in world championships. 
3. Rastegar ( it trickled to EVERY Class)

4. the Miami Olympic Classes Regatta (it sucks a huge amount of money from the general fund of sailing at every level from individual sailors to administration. 
    **What other sport has its premiere event during the off season? 
   ** only a tiny fraction of uS sailors live within a day”s drive of Miami

5. Sailboat racing is absolutely a game where the cream rises and the larger the vat the more pure the cream. The sheer size of the  USA makes it hard to assemble large fleets.

BUT!!! Those who manage sailboat racing do nothing to help large fleets occur. 
* schedule near the large concentrations of sailors

.* start publicity for ALREADY SCHEDULED major events three to five years ahead 

* make certain the self funded weekend warriors are WELCOMED and can participate in a meaningful manner. 
*make certain the  weekend warriors can afford to participate ( venue, travel distance, lodging, food) 

 

there is a start… when it seems folks actually are doing some of those basic things, I will eagerly offer more assistance 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

1. We do not have a well funded, well run, enthusiastic builder of any of the toys used in Olympic sailing races. 
2. we do not have a class association for  any of the Olympic sailing toys whose management is young, enthusiastic, in attendance at most regattas, dragging sailors out to play, present to the point of obnoxious on multiple sailing forums, and helping multiple sailors to obtain berths in world championships. 
3. Rastegar ( it trickled to EVERY Class)

4. the Miami Olympic Classes Regatta (it sucks a huge amount of money from the general fund of sailing at every level from individual sailors to administration. 
    **What other sport has its premiere event during the off season? 
   ** only a tiny fraction of uS sailors live within a day”s drive of Miami

5. Sailboat racing is absolutely a game where the cream rises and the larger the vat the more pure the cream. The sheer size of the  USA makes it hard to assemble large fleets.

BUT!!! Those who manage sailboat racing do nothing to help large fleets occur. 
* schedule near the large concentrations of sailors

.* start publicity for ALREADY SCHEDULED major events three to five years ahead 

* make certain the self funded weekend warriors are WELCOMED and can participate in a meaningful manner. 
*make certain the  weekend warriors can afford to participate ( venue, travel distance, lodging, food) 

 

there is a start… when it seems folks actually are doing some of those basic things, I will eagerly offer more assistance 

 

 

 

Apart from the laser I don't think any of the Olympic classes are sailed much in the UK. The odd 49er around because people fancy a go, but not really raced 

It's not about class associations, it's not about builders, it's not about clubs or universities. The potential Olympic sailors are hot housed from the age of about 14. There's a program with one goal. It likes to say it's not, but that's just the marketing spin. It's very good at what it does for the few who make it.

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4 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Apart from the laser I don't think any of the Olympic classes are sailed much in the UK. The odd 49er around because people fancy a go, but not really raced 

It's not about class associations, it's not about builders, it's not about clubs or universities. The potential Olympic sailors are hot housed from the age of about 14. There's a program with one goal. It likes to say it's not, but that's just the marketing spin. It's very good at what it does for the few who make it.

When the USA was successful, the formula I described drove the success. 

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4 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

When the USA was successful, the formula I described drove the success. 

Excellent point, and I'm sure in 1900 in Paris something else drove success. We should find out what, I'm sure it's very relevant.

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16 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Apart from the laser I don't think any of the Olympic classes are sailed much in the UK. The odd 49er around because people fancy a go, but not really raced 

It's not about class associations, it's not about builders, it's not about clubs or universities. The potential Olympic sailors are hot housed from the age of about 14. There's a program with one goal. It likes to say it's not, but that's just the marketing spin. It's very good at what it does for the few who make it.

Exactly this. It’s something of a cross between East Germany and the Hunger Games, but it does breed success. There are many downsides to this approach but it’s the best way to increase the medal count. 

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1 hour ago, European Bloke said:

Apart from the laser I don't think any of the Olympic classes are sailed much in the UK. The odd 49er around because people fancy a go, but not really raced 

It's not about class associations, it's not about builders, it's not about clubs or universities. The potential Olympic sailors are hot housed from the age of about 14. There's a program with one goal. It likes to say it's not, but that's just the marketing spin. It's very good at what it does for the few who make it.

Exactly the same in Australia, Funded by Olympic money filtering down through the sports associations and topped up with government money, plus a few sponsors. So this money and the consequent olympic emphasis dominates Australian Sailing and its prgrams to find and develop gold medalists. The remainig non olympic club sailor majority in club and association sailing survive on the edge.

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If I may be so presumptuous to make a few observations, and I have little doubt I will get a pilloried!

The only “Rock Stars” that I am sure of that have degree are Sir Russel Coutts, and Sir Jyrki Javia.

I may be 1000% wrong but Nathan, the 2 Tom’s, all the Grael’s, most of the AC skippers, most of the VOR skippers and crews, have spent very little time in universities.

So to limit your pool to your intervarsity program is cutting out probably 90% of your potential.

I am un-aware of any other country that dose this.

But far more important than this is look 8 years ahead, looking at today or worse yesterday dooms you to failure.

Even today, I spent a good part of it, with, sure he is an impressive solicitor, and he will read this,  but he is designing training programs to excite 14-15-16 year old’s, mostly girls, and giving them purpose and a life where sailing can be a part of it, even if those kids end up in tertiary institutions.

5% of that pool may end up with Olympic aspirations.

Bigger the pool, great the number of potential aspirants, and the greatly the chance of success.

The really big game changer is those who are in control of, in this case US Sailing, need to accept, almost by definition, they are past it.    If you are old enough to rise to the top of any sporting body, your past it.    Acceptance of that, and the design of the program you administer is your greatest legacy.     Having know Janet Baxter very well and Cory even better, you biggest issue, I am guessing with US Sailing is the term is too short to be able to make effective change.

I am super impressed in the I49erCA which, under Ben, and the last 3 pres, is anything but an ICA and is now a GSC [Global Sailing Community]. Totally transparent, with all the players knowing the issues and making the decisions rather than fiefdoms that riddle say ILCA that Tracy and Takao have to battle with every day.   These guys only have so much energy, to waste it on minutia is a travesty.    

Go to McKinsey and get them to re-design the structure, and remember the 3rd Peter Principal, “the validity of an idea is proportional, and opposite to the opposition it creates”!

Squeaky wheel gets the oil.  

You never kick a dead horse

Etc etc etc.

 

 

  

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28 minutes ago, JulianB said:

  

If I may be so presumptuous to make a few observations, and I have little doubt I will get a pilloried!

 

The only “Rock Stars” that I am sure of that have degree are Sir Russel Coutts, and Sir Jyrki Javia.

 

I may be 1000% wrong but Nathan, the 2 Tom’s, all the Grael’s, most of the AC skippers, most of the VOR skippers and crews, have spent very little time in universities.

 

So to limit your pool to your intervarsity program is cutting out probably 90% of your potential.

 

I am un-aware of any other country that dose this.

 

But far more important than this is look 8 years ahead, looking at today or worse yesterday dooms you to failure.

 

Even today, I spent a good part of it, with, sure he is an impressive solicitor, and he will read this,  but he is designing training programs to excite 14-15-16 year old’s, mostly girls, and giving them purpose and a life where sailing can be a part of it, even if those kids end up in tertiary institutions.

 

5% of that pool may end up with Olympic aspirations.

 

Bigger the pool, great the number of potential aspirants, and the greatly the chance of success.

 

The really big game changer is those who are in control of, in this case US Sailing, need to accept, almost by definition, they are past it.    If you are old enough to rise to the top of any sporting body, your past it.    Acceptance of that, and the design of the program you administer is your greatest legacy.     Having know Janet Baxter very well and Cory even better, you biggest issue, I am guessing with US Sailing is the term is too short to be able to make effective change.

 

I am super impressed in the I49erCA which, under Ben, and the last 3 pres, is anything but an ICA and is now a GSC [Global Sailing Community]. Totally transparent, with all the players knowing the issues and making the decisions rather than fiefdoms that riddle say ILCA that Tracy and Takao have to battle with every day.   These guys only have so much energy, to waste it on minutia is a travesty.    

 

Go to McKinsey and get them to re-design the structure, and remember the 3rd Peter Principal, “the validity of an idea is proportional, and opposite to the opposition it creates”!

 

Squeaky wheel gets the oil.  

 

You never kick a dead horse

 

Etc etc etc.

 

 

 

  

I’d add Iain Percy to the (short) list of graduates, but otherwise totally agree. 

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Let me go back a qualify that:-

They had a degree when they won a GM.

My point being, if you are trolling universities for Olympic aspriants, then your too early!

 

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So in the UK, there is a pathway system to the olympic circus, it starts at maybe 6 years old in Optimists or Toppers and goes through Fevas and 420's and 29ers and Radials, local to national squads.  Up or out. Puts a huge time and expense pain on the families.  Much talent is lost because it doesn't come prepackaged with a Volvo SUV and kit fund.  The tree gets very narrow at the top (16 plus).  RYA effectively bypassed the club scene, so most of them rarely continue racing when they leave the system.  There are no free lunches.

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Universities may be largely irrelevant to development of sailors in most countries, as they are to development of most sports, but the US sporting development is highly focused around the colleges, so I get why it is more relevant there. 

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1 hour ago, Bored Stiff said:

I’d add Iain Percy to the (short) list of graduates, but otherwise totally agree. 

Ian went to university but didn't sail there. He got a degree, played football and got pissed up. We tried to persuade him, but he was having none of it 

I think he recognised that few made it in Olympic sailing, and if you don't you want a career to fall back on. Who wants to be a coach forever?

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34 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Universities may be largely irrelevant to development of sailors in most countries, as they are to development of most sports, but the US sporting development is highly focused around the colleges, so I get why it is more relevant there. 

And that is entirely the problem.

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I suspect there's also a problem with US culture. The impression I get from this forum is that for most young sailors the aim is to sit on the side of a leadmine and party on the dollar of some rich executive. It seems in the UK many more sailors would rather own or share in a dinghy of their own for their active sailing life. Such folk aren't prospective Olympic sailors, but their kids are, brought up round dinghy clubs and sailing dinghies. Which again is to do with size of the pond.

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1 hour ago, maxstaylock said:

So in the UK, there is a pathway system to the olympic circus, it starts at maybe 6 years old in Optimists or Toppers and goes through Fevas and 420's and 29ers and Radials, local to national squads.  Up or out. Puts a huge time and expense pain on the families.  Much talent is lost because it doesn't come prepackaged with a Volvo SUV and kit fund.  The tree gets very narrow at the top (16 plus).  RYA effectively bypassed the club scene, so most of them rarely continue racing when they leave the system.  There are no free lunches.

Note that the junior pathway is changing, with the aim of more local activity, though the funding issue is still a major hurdle. Any elite sport requires huge support from a young athlete's parents and the Performance teams are well aware of the impact. IMHO, the money is not the biggest concern... a committed family can access sports funding,  logistical help from other families and so on at Junior level, though there's no doubt it will get tough at Youth level and above. 

 In my area,  at least,  participating clubs can benefit from the support funding in various ways to improve their offering to members on & off the pathway.

 Running a multi-boat programme with international logistics once you are in your 20s is a different kettle of fish... 

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Obviously, it's a complex multi-faceted problem. Not just one thing. Funding for bases, coaches, more travel to Europe (where the strongest teams seem to be racing and training together).

However, one aspect that jumps at me is how much time US olympic aspirants spend looking for funding. Dinners, raffles, special events, coaching...  I don't know the details of US Sailing support (how much / what / when), but likely to be "less" and "later than other nations". 

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18 hours ago, Bill5 said:

A grandiose sailing centre in the USA is not the right answer. Financially supporting the best sailors (with coaches) to do major international regattas in their classes would cost a fraction of that and achieve a great deal more. To get to be the best, you need to go out and compete with the best, over a build-up period of years. The days when sailors could do that within their own country are long gone. 

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16 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

Think the UK has put aside £20,000,000 for the next (3 year) cycle

Last time I looked, less than half of that. I haven't re-checked but doubt it has escalated that much.

The Cayard piece says it is government money, most of it isn't, at least not in the sense of raised by taxation. It is National Lottery money.

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10 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Last time I looked, less than half of that. I haven't checked but doubt it has escalated that much.

The Cayard piece says it is government money, most of it isn't, at least not in the sense of raised by taxation. It is National Lottery money.

Was £22m for this 5 year cycle, so maybe not that far off

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Worth noting though that GB success at Olympic sailing long predates the lottery funding that has helped GB in the Olympics so much. That is why as per the Brazil thread we head the table for all time success.

So whilst the money helps, it is not the only factor by any means

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The biggest issue with US olympic planning is, I think:

A huge national focus on college sailing - despite college sailings stated mission purpose being inclusion and growth of sailing rather than an olmypic pipeline (nothing wrong with that), and those who maybe at 18 being in a good skill-wise position to do an olympic campaign are instead choosing to participate in college sailing.

Additionally, once someone does commit to a campaign, you need to travel off continent, and be self funded almost to the very end. AUS, CAN, and NZ of course have similar problems, but I think are much, much better funded by their national bodies. 

Of course, there are no "poor" olympic sailors, any would probably be the exception, but it is a much larger jump from being family support until 16-18 for junior sailing and pre-olympic pathway, to being fully self-funded when the real campaign starts. Moving yourself around, housing, food, boats, sails, moving the boat (probably two boats), coaching until you make the USSOT, etc. 

3 hours ago, JimC said:

I suspect there's also a problem with US culture. The impression I get from this forum is that for most young sailors the aim is to sit on the side of a leadmine and party on the dollar of some rich executive. It seems in the UK many more sailors would rather own or share in a dinghy of their own for their active sailing life. Such folk aren't prospective Olympic sailors, but their kids are, brought up round dinghy clubs and sailing dinghies. Which again is to do with size of the pond.

There is a big focus in this country for leadmine sailing. As an ex dinghy sailor, it's just a time, location, and access. I can show up to hop on some rich guy's boat and know that the boat captain has it ready to go. I don't need to drive hours just to go work on the boat. I don't have the facilities right now to store or work on a boat at home. I spent high school in Florida - it was 35minutes to get to the boat park, easy peasy. After college I moved to Philly - access blows. I need to drive hours to get anywhere I would consider "worth" sailing. Maybe I'm spoiled having grown up sailing in Florida and Newport (ok I'm spoiled). Sailing a Laser on the Delaware might be ok, but rivers, current, and still a long drive from where I work to the only active-ish-maybe laser fleets on the river are still an hour drive from work and then two hours to get home. Anywho, this has fuckall to do with the olympics. If I ever move back to Newport I'll probably buy a 505 or A-Cat the next day... 

 

1 hour ago, martin 'hoff said:

Obviously, it's a complex multi-faceted problem. Not just one thing. Funding for bases, coaches, more travel to Europe (where the strongest teams seem to be racing and training together).

However, one aspect that jumps at me is how much time US olympic aspirants spend looking for funding. Dinners, raffles, special events, coaching...  I don't know the details of US Sailing support (how much / what / when), but likely to be "less" and "later than other nations". 

Funding from USS is focused on coaching. I don't think there is help with logistics until you're on final approach to the games, selections made, etc. 

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40 years ago Phila was a great dinghy sailing town. Cooper River, Riverton, Red Dragon, and then all lakes and shore (Marsh Creek, Margate, Stone Harbor l, Bay Head...

GP14, Comet, Lighting, Dster. Moth, Hobie, Laser, Windsurfer...DaySailer...many more

And frankly as you point out wrt keelboats, when we had lots of xinghy racing, we had lots of medalists...

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10 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

When the USA was successful, the formula I described drove the success. 

And there was a US trials for each class rather than some formula made up by US Sailing (aka US Failing ) to get their darlings in the olympics. 

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20 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

The only people able to support an Olympic campaign are either college sailors or have rich parents.

Half correct. Collegiate Sailing is a net negative for olympic prospects.

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This is a great question.   Here was my personal experience, I raced an olympic class internationally and competed on the college circuit for a well resourced and deep college team:

A lot of it is money.  European, South American, Australian, etc. athletes are straight up funded very well.  They don't have to work and can get essentially paid to train and sail all the time.  In the US, unless you have a massive trust fund, begging your local yacht clubs for some moolah just won't cut what it takes to travel and compete consistently on the international circuit, where the best competition and most opportunities to accelerate your learning curve lie.  Its literally the difference between being a professional vs amateur athlete.  The gap is massive.    Even if you do have the resources to compete internationally for an extended period of time, good luck finding enough training partners in the US who have a similar fortune, and good training partners are essential at this level.  

The US college sailing situation is another issue.  Yes, college sailing is quite strong in the states and the opportunities to do just millions of starts, mark roundings, play millions of wind shifts, etc are unmatched in the world.  The tactics, strategic knowledge and competitive experience you get racing college is strong.  BUT, college sailing, because you largely use boats that are oversimplified and underpowered, does not wholly prepare you for international success, where the courses are huge and there is a premium on fitness and big course, big fleet skills.  The US college sailing circuit is a good start, but falls very short in terms of raw athleticism and big, open body water competition with waves and moderate, strong, or big winds.  In the states, maybe 75% of all dinghy racing takes place in less than 12 knots ( and I think this is generous).  Sailors in other countries, from a young age, compete in open water, with real waves and stronger winds.  So in the US, the most successful racers who get the most support from an early age tend to be lighter, less physically fit and are light air/flat water/closed water specialists.  So when these racers who have been prized since a young age get to the big stage, there are some athletic shortcomings, as well as shortcomings in open water skills/comfort/mindset, at least compared to other countries.   Sailing is a complex game, and the skills at the top of the world have been honed year after year from a young age.   In the states, we have bread a different type of competitive racer, compared to what the top nations in the world are doing.   

There is one other facet, and this is more anecdotal.  There is just a full-on killer instinct and 100% engaged commitment mindset with racers from the sailing superpowers.  The kids and athletes in their 20s and 30s are just committed to pushing their sailing skills 110%.  In the US, there are a lot of distractions for the youth, and the kids who grow up racing sailboats are more likely to reenter the socioeconomic class that their parents came from to afford sailing to begin with, as opposed to be what in the US we would consider a "sailing bum."  In Europe, Australia, etc., it is accepted more to have a lifestyle based around something that is not all about making money.  

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ol.

7 hours ago, JimC said:

I suspect there's also a problem with US culture. The impression I get from this forum is that for most young sailors the aim is to sit on the side of a leadmine and party on the dollar of some rich executive. It seems in the UK many more sailors would rather own or share in a dinghy of their own for their active sailing life. Such folk aren't prospective Olympic sailors, but their kids are, brought up round dinghy clubs and sailing dinghies. Which again is to do with size of the pond.

I dont think that is accurate.  Most young sailors in the USA like racing fast smaller boats, especially sport boats.....and they like team racing.  Most of them are not that interested in an Olympic career.  A sustained 12 year Olympic campaign does not have the same appeal as it does in Australia or the UK.   At most the talented sailor would commit 4 years and then head off for a real career. 

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11 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

ol.

I dont think that is accurate.  Most young sailors in the USA like racing fast smaller boats, especially sport boats.....and they like team racing.  Most of them are not that interested in an Olympic career.  A sustained 12 year Olympic campaign does not have the same appeal as it does in Australia or the UK.   At most the talented sailor would commit 4 years and then head off for a real career. 

I disagree with that fact that young US sailors don't want to campaign for many years. Much of the problem lies with access to the right boats at a reasonable price. If you go the the right UK, Australian, Dutch or many other sailing clubs there are competitive boats available for club members. In the US most community sailing clubs and even yacht clubs don't have an inventory of competitive racing boats available for members. 

Basically a young US sailor right out of college has to go out and buy a (name the boat... 49er, 470, etc.) to compete in. Yeah ILCA is different but that is just 2 people on a national team. US Sailing has typically focused on traditional yacht clubs where bars, dining rooms and young kids programs are often more important than competitive sailing.  As a result, anyone out for an Olympic campaign in the US has to spend a lot of time begging for cash as opposed to training and competing.  

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US College racing is almost entirely run with short course with no spinnaker, fleet and team racing.  Boats are mostly small 2 person dinghies for Junior sailors. System is great for starts, close in tactics, mark roundjngs, and some boat handling. Absolutely terrible for long race formats where boat setup, big picture strategy, boat speed technique, and longer fleet management are critical skills.  
 

If you run track in college, it is prepping for the Olympics.  Same with swimming, volleyball, etc. Most college sports are in the same general format as Olympic sports and the skills and proactive translate well.  Not college sailing.  It is is for a specific size individual (reason why male US Junior sailing instructors are all 5’7” and 150lbs or less) on short course format racing where you swap boats between races.  

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Just now, frostbit said:

US College racing is almost entirely run with short course with no spinnaker, fleet and team racing.  Boats are mostly small 2 person dinghies for Junior sailors. System is great for starts, close in tactics, mark roundjngs, and some boat handling. Absolutely terrible for long race formats where boat setup, big picture strategy, boat speed technique, and longer fleet management are critical skills.  
 

If you run track in college, it is prepping for the Olympics.  Same with swimming, volleyball, etc. Most college sports are in the same general format as Olympic sports and the skills and proactive translate well.  Not college sailing.  It is is for a specific size individual (reason why male US Junior sailing instructors are all 5’7” and 150lbs or less) on short course format racing where you swap boats between races.  

As others have pointed out, it’s very expensive and time consuming to train for Olympic sailing. It’s exacerbated by the fact that college sailing is a terrible place to get better at olympic style racing.  

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Read the whole thread...   Not a mention of Malcom Page,    All we know from the public record is   from this press release from US Sailing.

 

BRISTOL, R.I. (September 19, 2019) – US Sailing and Malcolm Page, Chief of Olympic Sailing, announced that they have agreed to part ways. Page will be leaving US Sailing and returning to his home in Australia. He will be working with US Sailing Team staff and coaches on transition activities through the end of October, 2019.

US Sailing would like to thank Malcolm for his two and a half years of service to the organization and for his role in the preparation of the US Sailing Team for the 2020 Games. Malcolm played an integral role connecting the sailing public to the Team and Olympic sailing, and in fostering relationships around the industry to support our program and the athletes. As a respected sailing industry professional, we wish Malcolm the best in his future endeavors.

Moving forward, US Sailing will enhance our focus on athlete centric investment and resources in preparation for Tokyo 2020. national stage. ... 

followed by more BS ...  So, given that the previous leader was a magazine editor... I had great hope for Malcom, who had a good track record  surrounded by skepticism knowing just a little about the US system... . 

And here we are.    Hardly a surprise that Malcom and his successors would fail  ...  but I have to tell you....   I would love to listen to Malcom's assessment and potential ways forward. 

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4 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

After college I moved to Philly - access blows. I need to drive hours to get anywhere I would consider "worth" sailing. Maybe I'm spoiled having grown up sailing in Florida and Newport (ok I'm spoiled). Sailing a Laser on the Delaware might be ok, but rivers, current, and still a long drive from where I work to the only active-ish-maybe laser fleets on the river are still an hour drive from work and then two hours to get home. Anywho, this has fuckall to do with the olympics. If I ever move back to Newport I'll probably buy a 505 or A-Cat the next day...

To the west of you there is Marsh Creek, and the Marsh Creek Sailing Club has an active Laser Fleet #489  I think you can store your boat there too, and no jet skies to content with. 

http://www.mcsailingclub.org/

As a reference, from Ardmore to boat in the water (Prindle 16 at the time) was about a 90 minutes in 1994.

To the north there is Nockamixon and I believe they too have a Laser fleet..  I have sailed there a few times and it was always good.

Have fun...

 

 

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25 minutes ago, gohawks said:

European, South American, Australian, etc. athletes are straight up funded very well.  They don't have to work and can get essentially paid to train and sail all the time.

Over here, minimum income for top athletes, and only for a very limited group. State tops up income to minimum level if you do not have enough sponsorship.  It is not much, you have to be frugal. If they do 2 lectures for business clubs a month, they make more money. Get one sponsor deal, and you are better off. Most do not need the state income. But if they get sick etc, it is a nice security.

Group size around 50 sailors, 9 Olympic sailors, rest training partners and future talents. Coach, costs and material paid for. Mostly paid for by sponsors. Top centrum (like Cayard idea) paid for by government out of state run lottery money and with city funds.

Before that, TopTalent academia, good results gets you grants to cover costs. Coach paid for.
Before that regional training centra. Shared coach paid for a few weeks a year.
Before that, your local club helps out.

So the big advantage is a bit of security and a lot of costs paid for if you hit the top team. It is not the state paying wages to the athletes.

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19 minutes ago, LeoV said:

So the big advantage is a bit of security and a lot of costs paid for if you hit the top team. It is not the state paying wages to the athletes.

Yeah that is a huge advantage vs the US.  Not having to work and having your expenses paid is massive.  

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1 hour ago, frostbit said:

US College racing is almost entirely run with short course with no spinnaker, fleet and team racing.  Boats are mostly small 2 person dinghies for Junior sailors. System is great for starts, close in tactics, mark roundjngs, and some boat handling. Absolutely terrible for long race formats where boat setup, big picture strategy, boat speed technique, and longer fleet management are critical skills.  
 

If you run track in college, it is prepping for the Olympics.  Same with swimming, volleyball, etc. Most college sports are in the same general format as Olympic sports and the skills and proactive translate well.  Not college sailing.  It is is for a specific size individual (reason why male US Junior sailing instructors are all 5’7” and 150lbs or less) on short course format racing where you swap boats between races.  

 

2 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Half correct. Collegiate Sailing is a net negative for olympic prospects.

 

On 8/1/2021 at 1:08 PM, Xeon said:

None of the successful sailing would think of using a college system .

 They all use types of squad systems the allow the best sailors of the country to sail against each other full time with out having to worry about earning a living .  They also employ the best coach’s and back room staff they can get.

Unless the USA changes, they unfortunately  will remain also rans .

 

On 8/1/2021 at 8:04 AM, frostbit said:

US College sailing format. 

College sailing in the US literally has ZERO effect on our olympic sailing prospects. When was the last time anyone outside of a university bothered to follow the collegiate circuit? When you accidentally flip to that page in Sailing World trying to get to a real news story?

No one gives a shit about college sailing, not even the students themselves. Olympic hopefuls regularly quit college teams or take time off their studies entirely to train. Luke Muller did it at Stanford, Anna Weis did it at BC, I think Barrows did it last time around, and many, many of the other hopefuls who didn't qualify did as well.

College sailing here doesn't exactly prepare sailors for the olympics, but it's ridiculous to say that it is anything more than a minor sideshow in the US sailing scene - and this is coming from a former college sailor. College sailing has no real bearing on our olympic results.

The real problem is, as many have already said: MONEY. THERE IS NONE. All the US sailors are self funded, meaning they are either lucky enough to have found a rich sponsor (and I'm pretty sure none of the current olympians do), or are rich themselves. The latter is pretty much the only way one can take years off their life to train and qualify for the Olympics. THIS IS THE ISSUE WITH US SAILING. PERIOD.

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13 minutes ago, crashtack said:

College sailing here doesn't exactly prepare sailors for the olympics, but it's ridiculous to say that it is anything more than a minor sideshow in the US sailing scene - this is coming from a former college sailors too. College sailing has no real bearing on our olympic results.

Yes.  And if you weigh more than 150lbs you are at a serious disadvantage trying to race a boat designed for 14 year olds.  All the while it can be lots of pressure and time and you only sail on tiny bodies of water in less than 8 knots.  I got over it pretty quick.  

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So why is there no funding for top US sailing talent?  The US is very successful in other Olympic sports - did Simone Biles, Michael Phelps and Carl Lewis come from a wealthy backgrounds?

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2 minutes ago, Bored Stiff said:

So why is there no funding for top US sailing talent?  The US is very successful in other Olympic sports - did Simone Biles, Michael Phelps and Carl Lewis come from a wealthy backgrounds?

Even dinghy sailing is hugely expensive.  Hull, sails, spars, foils, gear, travel, entry fees.  Multiply when they break or wear beyond their competitive life.   Factor in trips abroad and its very expensive.  All Michael Phelps needed was a speedo and a towel.  

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9 minutes ago, gohawks said:

Yes.  And if you weigh more than 150lbs you are at a serious disadvantage trying to race a boat designed for 14 year olds.  All the while it can be lots of pressure and time and you only sail on tiny bodies of water in less than 8 knots.  I got over it pretty quick.  

Ian Barrows won Nationals pushing 200... weight makes a difference but skill is ultimately far more important.

10 minutes ago, Bored Stiff said:

So why is there no funding for top US sailing talent?  The US is very successful in other Olympic sports - did Simone Biles, Michael Phelps and Carl Lewis come from a wealthy backgrounds?

Because no one sails here, and those who do (i.e. Newport, Annapolis, and SF) don't give a shit about dinghies

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5 minutes ago, crashtack said:

Ian Barrows won Nationals pushing 200... weight makes a difference but skill is ultimately far more important.

For sure.  Skill is the ultimate decider, and that is a huge credit to Ian.  When I was in the game, less than 10% of the skippers were over 160#s at the national level in college sailing.  At the top level, small margins create huge advantages.  But big picture, sailing an underpowerd boat day after day can really grind on one's soul.  

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30 minutes ago, gohawks said:

All Michael Phelps needed was a speedo and a towel.  

And a lot of expensive coaching. My teenage son plays tennis - he only needs a racquet - but the coaching costs €10k a year.  My son is good (the standard in tennis is generally much higher than standards in sailing because training is so much easier to do) but he has no chance at all of making it to the top, he does it for fun. What Phelps saved on not buying a boat he will have spent on training.  

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42 minutes ago, gohawks said:

Even dinghy sailing is hugely expensive.  Hull, sails, spars, foils, gear, travel, entry fees.  Multiply when they break or wear beyond their competitive life.   Factor in trips abroad and its very expensive.  All Michael Phelps needed was a speedo and a towel.  

An interesting thought is that US College sailing seems to be quite well funded. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression at this distance is that they appear to have professional boat maintenance, coaching etc. I can't say what its like now, but as I recall in my day UK university sailing had none of that, the students had to maintain the boats etc, even pay for their own travel to events (obviously a smaller issue in the UK). If College sailing does have a good degree of funding what would happen if that were available to the youth pathway instead? (OK, I know it won't be as simple as that).

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2 minutes ago, JimC said:

An interesting thought is that US College sailing seems to be quite well funded. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression at this distance is that they appear to have professional boat maintenance, coaching etc. I can't say what its like now, but as I recall in my day UK university sailing had none of that, the students had to maintain the boats etc, even pay for their own travel to events (obviously a smaller issue in the UK). If College sailing does have a good degree of funding what would happen if that were available to the youth pathway instead? (OK, I know it won't be as simple as that).

As with most college sports that aren't football or basketball, only a small fraction of US college teams are well funded (varsity programs in schools with large athletics endowments). With a few exceptions of "club varsity" teams that get external funding, the rest are not so lucky. Don't see how that could be transferred to the "youth pathway" to be completely honest.

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2 hours ago, Ventucky Red said:

To the west of you there is Marsh Creek, and the Marsh Creek Sailing Club has an active Laser Fleet #489  I think you can store your boat there too, and no jet skies to content with. 

http://www.mcsailingclub.org/

As a reference, from Ardmore to boat in the water (Prindle 16 at the time) was about a 90 minutes in 1994.

To the north there is Nockamixon and I believe they too have a Laser fleet..  I have sailed there a few times and it was always good.

Have fun...

 

 

Nockaixon is the closest to me. I don't think they have any laser racing anymore, at least as of a couple years ago when I last looked. Could be wrong. 

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44 minutes ago, JimC said:

An interesting thought is that US College sailing seems to be quite well funded. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression at this distance is that they appear to have professional boat maintenance, coaching etc. I can't say what its like now, but as I recall in my day UK university sailing had none of that, the students had to maintain the boats etc, even pay for their own travel to events (obviously a smaller issue in the UK). If College sailing does have a good degree of funding what would happen if that were available to the youth pathway instead? (OK, I know it won't be as simple as that).

Some of the colleges are very well funded. Most are not. US College sailing is separate and apart from both the NCAA and USS. I'd wager most college sailing programs are club level, but they race against funded varsity teams. Aside from coaching, and the possibility of less practice time due to more maintenance time, it doesn't matter once get to the event since you're always using the hosts' boats. 

Personally, I was thought it would be cool if certain non USCS events counted towards the college sailing rankings - ie Miami OCR, the event(s) at Oak Cliff in New York, and maybe some west coast events. To at least throw some "legitimacy" to non college events and try to encourage olympic sailing. It'll never happen, though. 

And really, at the end of the day, if a sailor is serious about going to the olympics, they really shouldn't bother with collegiate sailing at all. But, if the yare a top level sailor, they do get 4 years of basically free sailing and coaching (if they were going to go to college in the first place). 

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2 hours ago, Bored Stiff said:

So why is there no funding for top US sailing talent?  The US is very successful in other Olympic sports - did Simone Biles, Michael Phelps and Carl Lewis come from a wealthy backgrounds?

Michael Phelps - Speedo, Under Armour, Omega, Master Spas

Carl Lewis - Nike,  Mizuno

Simone Biles - Athleta, Visa, Core Power Protein shakes

Luke Muller (US Finn Sailor) - Gets free sunglasses from Oakley.

It doesnt draw in the sponsors like a track star brings in Nike.

 

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1 hour ago, Wavedancer II said:

Did anyone really think that US sailors had a chance for a gold medal, or any medal, for that matter?

Prior results weren't promising at all...

If(third-time Olympian & world champion) Paige Railey hadn't been black flagged twice she may have sailed a completely different regatta psychologically, her training partner Sarah Douglas made 6th in a very competitive Radial fleet (with the top spots guarded by Bouwmeester and Rindom)

I was hoping Shea/Roble would be able to grab the bull by the horns, they did pretty well at the last FX worlds and had a great battle for selection against arguably a stronger team with Henken/Tunnicliffe-Tobias

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

It doesnt draw in the sponsors like a track star brings in Nike.

 

Lacrosse doesn't attract a lot of sponsors, but yet NCAA D1 lacrosse is definitely elite. Some small school could make a name for themselves as a sailing powerhouse, just as tiny Hobart College is best known for lacrosse. Lacrosse is probably going to be in the 2028 Olympics, and US will be the likely favorite, precisely because US colleges support the game.  

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48 minutes ago, spankoka said:

Lacrosse doesn't attract a lot of sponsors, but yet NCAA D1 lacrosse is definitely elite. Some small school could make a name for themselves as a sailing powerhouse, just as tiny Hobart College is best known for lacrosse. Lacrosse is probably going to be in the 2028 Olympics, and US will be the likely favorite, precisely because US colleges support the game.  

This would be a better analogy if NCAA lax was played on a half-court with mini sticks and no hitting was allowed

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I get that, but obviously a given college could support sailors on the Olympic path at the same time that they have a NCAA team competing. 

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The reason we didn’t get medals goes back about 20 years. We didn’t create a big enough talent pool, and where we were somewhat deep - laser radial - we put far too many resources against one person too often. 
 

Truth is, given our current resources, and the amount of utter dysfunction the management of the team went through this cycle our placings at this regatta are pretty good overall. 

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8 hours ago, spankoka said:

I get that, but obviously a given college could support sailors on the Olympic path at the same time that they have a NCAA team competing. 

what exactly would this gain the college? Also college sailing isn't in the NCAA, teams are organized under the ICSA with regional conferences such as SAISA and NEISA.

Also I would argue that Charleston is the Hobart of college sailing. Jacksonville is also making a name for itself.

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GB universities certainly don't contribute to Olympic sailing aspirations. It's all team racing.So that isn't the primary cause-which isn't to say that US colleges could not help

GB has plenty of success in non-Olympic classes too so it isn't just the lottery funding. I think the ease of travelling to nationals and Europeans may help us. Plus success encourages more people to do it which leads to more success

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well, we can pride ourselves at having the worst Olympic sailing performance in our history. Only two teams got into the medal race, and are best finish was 9th. In the Laser radial we finished in a shocking 37th

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No way to have predicted that /purp

 

Usst finally axed the magazine publisher/team director and brought in a proven gold medal winner. They then decided not to listen to him about anything. I remember some words from some us sailing boss about how “Malcolm doesn’t understand the American way.”  I think he meant to say “Malcolm won’t sacrifice his reputation and become a loser  like us sailing just to make some cash.” “American way” is code for “the guys who donate the most to the team have final say”

the Gary Hobson/Bruce Burton/josh Adams/Newport mafia brigade have been pushing the usst towards this cliff for almost two decades. Nice work men

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2 medal rounds???   Even worse.... what does the pipeline look like behind these seniors in US Olympic sailing?   We are fortunate that there will be several new classes next cycle and the US seems to be able to compete in the first quad of the cycle in new classes. 

Sadly, the US population will only support and focus on winners in these Olympic sports.... two 9th place finishes won't drive a lot of interest.  We are in danger of just friends and families supporting the sailors. 

Is it too soon to have the conversation that qualifying for the games is not enough to get the Olympic trip..... If you haven't demonstrated top 10 finishes and thus the potential to make the medal round the US will not send you.  (That would have been Page's policy)

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7 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

 how “Malcolm doesn’t understand the American way.”  I think he meant to say “Malcolm won’t sacrifice his reputation and become a loser  like us sailing just to make some cash.”

the Gary Hobson/Bruce Burton/josh Adams/Newport mafia brigade have been pushing the usst towards this cliff for almost two decades. Nice work men

Clean,   did you ever manage to get an exit interview with Malcom?    .... it seems like he never existed after the Newport Mafia parted ways.

Is it as simple as... Page is a winner and knows what it takes in 2020 and the rest of them are living their glory days of the 70s.  They did not want to hurt the sailors feelings and were not going to back Page delivering that tough love message.  Also,  what is the story with coaching..... same thing... nice guys with records... or SOB's that can coach talent up.

Stupid question...   Do you think US Sailing and the US Olympic committee have ANOTHER ... "after failure"... what went wrong and formulate another strategic plan.... or do we get the press release  that is... no worries... all is well and on track?

 

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I think that there is a big agreement on the money required to compete in sailing.  You could be a talent in your local body of water, but if you are not able to get some additional coaching and race in big events, it's tough to catch up.  The biggest events are in Europe every year, so there is a time/money/logistics commitment, and with a small pool available, it could be difficult to get the right individuals into Europe.  

And then there's the Club 420.  It will be interesting to follow the successful USA I-420 sailors from this summer, and see how they progress going forward.  Again, the commitment to get those sailors, equipment, and coaches to Europe takes money.

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8 hours ago, sunseeker said:

The reason we didn’t get medals goes back about 20 years. We didn’t create a big enough talent pool, and where we were somewhat deep - laser radial - we put far too many resources against one person too often. 
 

Truth is, given our current resources, and the amount of utter dysfunction the management of the team went through this cycle our placings at this regatta are pretty good overall. 

Utter dysfunction    just 20 years???      Nope .... worse then that and much longer then that.   

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