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I'll add one more thing... College racing format is boring, BORING. Why do people drop out of sailing... lots of reasons, but boring is definitely one of them. Some of these kids will spend 10 years of their lives -10 YEARS - in the same general class of boats. Many of the top sailors coming out of college have NO other sailing skills and can't even tune a I420 for international competition let alone a 470 or god forbid a 49er or even a keel boat. 

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This is a great question.   Here was my personal experience, I raced an olympic class internationally and competed on the college circuit for a well resourced and deep college team: A lot of it i

A massive contrast between the US and all the major competitive sailing countries was, and is....that dinghy sailing is categorised as being "for kids" and "real yachting" (keelboats) are for when you

The universities in the UK sail. Most (not all) of the Olympic sailors don't go to university. Those that do wouldn't go university sailing. University sailing is for fun.  

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Junior Sailing is the problem.  Kids are completely ruined before they get to college.

Most kids are sailing in boring over simplified boats in large regattas starting at age 7.  There is no tuning, just show and go.  Mom and dad (and coaches) clean the boat, prep it while junior gets poodled up in his Zhik gear and $100 sunglasses, energy bars, sports drinks and hits the water.  Does that sound like sailing as a kid to anyone over 40? 

Kids are not sailing just for fun - achievement over enjoyment - they rarely sail or practice outside the program and the programs are usually massively time consuming anyway.  Most are "over it" by age 15 and won't sail recreationally because they compete in events with 50 boats so why sail against 15 - they see it as a step into the unknown without their support network. 

In the 80's - we sailed for fun, to get around, and to compete.  We played baseball and soccer in yards and at school fields.  We played organized sports less than kids do now.  We learn how to sail, not just how to race.   Kids were well rounded.    In 1984, The USA medaled in every olympic sailing event and today, we have two 40 year olds sailing the 470 primarily because no one under 40 in the entire country cared to challenge them and we did not earn a spot in the 49er!

It is culture - the desire to try is gone for many kids sucked out of them by helicopter parents and the "everyone gets a medal" environment.  There are exceptions, as we just kicked everyone's butt in the 420 worlds, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.  

 

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9 minutes ago, stealingisacrime said:

Junior Sailing is the problem.  Kids are completely ruined before they get to college.

Most kids are sailing in boring over simplified boats in large regattas starting at age 7.  There is no tuning, just show and go.  Mom and dad (and coaches) clean the boat, prep it while junior gets poodled up in his Zhik gear and $100 sunglasses, energy bars, sports drinks and hits the water.  Does that sound like sailing as a kid to anyone over 40? 

Kids are not sailing just for fun - achievement over enjoyment - they rarely sail or practice outside the program and the programs are usually massively time consuming anyway.  Most are "over it" by age 15 and won't sail recreationally because they compete in events with 50 boats so why sail against 15 - they see it as a step into the unknown without their support network. 

In the 80's - we sailed for fun, to get around, and to compete.  We played baseball and soccer in yards and at school fields.  We played organized sports less than kids do now.  We learn how to sail, not just how to race.   Kids were well rounded.    In 1984, The USA medaled in every olympic sailing event and today, we have two 40 year olds sailing the 470 primarily because no one under 40 in the entire country cared to challenge them and we did not earn a spot in the 49er!

It is culture - the desire to try is gone for many kids sucked out of them by helicopter parents and the "everyone gets a medal" environment.  There are exceptions, as we just kicked everyone's butt in the 420 worlds, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.  

 

disagree. Some junior programs may be the problem, but not all. We get 200+ unique kids out every summer and they progress through learning how to sail and muck around in boats. parents do none of the work on boat prep. Kids go to regattas. parents do none of the boat prep. they do drop off as they get older, but they have so many other time-consuming activities, that it is hard to pin point any one thing that draws them away.  

 

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1 minute ago, frostbit said:

they have so many other time-consuming activities, that it is hard to pin point any one thing that draws them away.  

You just supported by argument... Junior sailing, like other organize sports focuses on achievement over enjoyment and all are way to time consuming as achievement requires commitment.

At 200 kids a season, you have put ~2000 kids through the program in the past 10 years.  So how has that impacted the popularity of sailing in your local community?
My guess is sailing in general is either the same or less popular than it was 10 years ago.  Net gain = 0.

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Just now, stealingisacrime said:

You just supported by argument... Junior sailing, like other organize sports focuses on achievement over enjoyment and all are way to time consuming as achievement requires commitment.

At 200 kids a season, you have put ~2000 kids through the program in the past 10 years.  So how has that impacted the popularity of sailing in your local community?
My guess is sailing in general is either the same or less popular than it was 10 years ago.  Net gain = 0.

Not following your logic. B/c I gave you a fact, the junior sailing program is achievement oriented? Given kids coming back year after year for something they like and for which most of their parents have no idea about, it's a success. Guaranteed that without it, hundreds of kids (sailors in general attend on average 5 years at our program, so not 2,000 kids, more like 600 - 700 in last 10 years) would never have gone sailing at all and many who love it have gone on to cruise, race, screw around in boats, etc. etc. wouldn't have had the skills to do so. 

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41 minutes ago, stealingisacrime said:

My guess is sailing in general is either the same or less popular than it was 10 years ago.  Net gain = 0.

Yes, we know for a fact that there are fewer people sailing.  Some sources say a 25% decline in the last 20 years. 

Like you say also, the culture of the sailing program has a lot to do with the kids' success.  In my coaching experience, programs that leave more responsibility with the kids end up having competitive advantages.  I've coached a bunch of teams, and the teams with the helicopter parents were a sad, embarrassing mess; I felt so sorry for the kids.  

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On 8/2/2021 at 7:20 PM, maxstaylock said:

So in the UK, there is a pathway system to the olympic circus, it starts at maybe 6 years old in Optimists or Toppers and goes through Fevas and 420's and 29ers and Radials, local to national squads.  Up or out. Puts a huge time and expense pain on the families.  Much talent is lost because it doesn't come prepackaged with a Volvo SUV and kit fund.  The tree gets very narrow at the top (16 plus).  RYA effectively bypassed the club scene, so most of them rarely continue racing when they leave the system.  There are no free lunches.

And my big beef with this system is it destrys clubs.

The cost of Olympic glory is too high.

 

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In the US we have an almost religious devotion to a junior sailing format that is clearly inadequate.  In our system, all kids MUST sail Optis until they're 15, at which point they MUST sail C420's, which they basically sail until they are about 21 or 22 through college.  The odd FJ or Lark is thrown in there, but 99% of competitive sailors have never seen a bendy rig until after they exit college.  That's just plain dumb.  If you look back to when the US was either dominant or comfortably competitive, none of those sailors had backgrounds resembling what we have today.  Sure all countries sail Optis, but after that,  other countries force a narrative that where only shit boat like the 420 are part of the story..... also the money obviously, but I truly believe that competitive youth sailing as it exists now is beyond dumb.  My daughters are going to be sailing boats with bendy rigs long before they are 14.

 

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The International 420 I sailed was so much more fun and interesting than the collegiate 420. The hulls looked the same but sure didn't behave the same! I still loved racing in college though. There are always compromises. Then again it was close to 40 years ago, a different time.

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4 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

The International 420 I sailed was so much more fun and interesting than the collegiate 420. The hulls looked the same but sure didn't behave the same! I still loved racing in college though. There are always compromises. Then again it was close to 40 years ago, a different time.

Yes.... I sailed I 420s too, and the difference is significant.  I also sailed C420's in high school team racing, and at the time it seemed to be a good boat for that format, but at the time I never thought that it would become what it has now, which is all kids ever know.  Shit... I was sailing I14's when I was 14 and Stars when I was 16.  Talk about being thrown in the deep end.  

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6 minutes ago, eliboat said:

Yes.... I sailed I 420s too, and the difference is significant.  I also sailed C420's in high school team racing, and at the time it seemed to be a good boat for that format, but at the time I never thought that it would become what it has now, which is all kids ever know.  Shit... I was sailing I14's when I was 14 and Stars when I was 16.  Talk about being thrown in the deep end.  

I raced 505s with two different 12 year old skippers in different decades :-)

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1 hour ago, eliboat said:

In the US we have an almost religious devotion to a junior sailing format that is clearly inadequate.  In our system, all kids MUST sail Optis until they're 15, at which point they MUST sail C420's, which they basically sail until they are about 21 or 22 through college.  The odd FJ or Lark is thrown in there, but 99% of competitive sailors have never seen a bendy rig until after they exit college.  That's just plain dumb.  If you look back to when the US was either dominant or comfortably competitive, none of those sailors had backgrounds resembling what we have today.  Sure all countries sail Optis, but after that,  other countries force a narrative that where only shit boat like the 420 are part of the story..... also the money obviously, but I truly believe that competitive youth sailing as it exists now is beyond dumb.  My daughters are going to be sailing boats with bendy rigs long before they are 14.

 

Here in Miami there's bazillion kids in Opti, some for fun, other for competition, and only the most vanishing trickle gets into 29ers. Must be, dunno, 50:1. And this isn spite of having amazing coaching right here. The amazingness is both in warmth/fun and in results. 

My own kids are skipping the opti, lots of bendy masts, carbon fiber "crafts", and we're having a ball. 

I won't claim to know why. It's shocking to me how over-grown the "graduating" kids in opti are – I'd push them out of there by the time they're 9 or so, to a cut-rig 29er or a Feva or whatever that is challenging and skiff-ish.

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On 8/2/2021 at 5:58 PM, JulianB said:

 If I may be so presumptuous to make a few observations, and I have little doubt I will get a pilloried!

The only “Rock Stars” that I am sure of that have degree are Sir Russel Coutts, and Sir Jyrki Javia.

I may be 1000% wrong but Nathan, the 2 Tom’s, all the Grael’s, most of the AC skippers, most of the VOR skippers and crews, have spent very little time in universities.

Mat Belcher has two master's degrees.

https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/olympic-games/en/results/sailing/athlete-profile-n1484036-belcher-mathew.htm

"

"
 
 
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37 minutes ago, martin 'hoff said:

Here in Miami there's bazillion kids in Opti, some for fun, other for competition, and only the most vanishing trickle gets into 29ers. Must be, dunno, 50:1. And this isn spite of having amazing coaching right here. The amazingness is both in warmth/fun and in results. 

My own kids are skipping the opti, lots of bendy masts, carbon fiber "crafts", and we're having a ball. 

I won't claim to know why. It's shocking to me how over-grown the "graduating" kids in opti are – I'd push them out of there by the time they're 9 or so, to a cut-rig 29er or a Feva or whatever that is challenging and skiff-ish.

yup... Miami and Florida in general is where all of this BS started.  After I had gone through 3 years of junior sailing, sailing Dyer Dhows, Flying Terns, Lasers, Rhodes 19's and a few other odd types of boats, I switched programs, and I was forced into sailing Optis, which I really resented at the time, because I had seen them during Marblehead Race Week and thought that they were pretty lame.  At any rate my dad, being who he is, figured out that the epicenter of Opti sailing was centered in Florida, specifically in St Pete, Ft Lauderdale, Clearwater and Miami.  Within half a year he was secretary of the class, and my brother and I were racing in Florida on weekends all winter long, usually playing hooky on Fridays and sometimes Mondays.  That was the beginning of the end for the US being competitive in Olympic sailing, because along with the Opti drowning out all other jr sailing boats came the C420.  In the short time I raced Optis, I saw the class go from a more or less Florida only phenomenon to guaranteed over 100 boats on the line at any decent event up and down the eastern seaboard; during this time the Sabot took a back seat to the Opti in a few short years (thankfully the Californians have kept the Sabot and the El Toro around as they are both superior to the Opti)   Years later, when hired as a private coach, I was in disbelief at what the scene had devolved into.... Sometimes 300+ boats, possibly the majority of kids not actually rigging their own boats, insane armadas of parents and South American coaches in giant RIBs shadowing the fleet from behind marked off boundaries (because if they weren't there...) and on top of that SI's that have to have verbiage that mandates coaches helping kids in distress that aren't under their tutelage.  

Almost all of the best sailors I know did not follow the current US system.  If you listen to Dave Kirkpatrick's excellent 505 Podcast you will hear some of the best dinghy sailors on the planet talk about how they came up in sailing, and 100% of the time these sailors describe an experience that is completely foreign from the JR sailing experience that currently exists.  Thankfully some people recognize what has happened, and developments like the Open bic are positive, however, single classes are not going to fix the systemic issue that exists.  Clubs, programs and school programs need to have the wisdom to choose quirky boats, or at least have sailors experience a whole lot more than they currently do before they turn 20.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Ncik said:

and going back a bit further... both John Bertrand and Robbie Doyle had degrees from MIT.  Also, HOW ABOUT THAT Gabrielle Thomas getting bronze in the 200M???  Harvard Neuro bio major.  Pretty badass right there.

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32 minutes ago, eliboat said:

and going back a bit further... both John Bertrand and Robbie Doyle had degrees from MIT.  Also, HOW ABOUT THAT Gabrielle Thomas getting bronze in the 200M???  Harvard Neuro bio major.  Pretty badass right there.

Yeah, I think JBeth jumped the gun on any adverse correlation or causation between sailing Olympians and tertiary education. Can't find the quote now but it was either Sir Russel or Sir JohnB (maybe not entitled to Sir yet) when they were active that said most AC sailors have degrees, they need the brain to win at that level.

https://www.olympics.com.au/olympians/jessica-fox/ - Psychology (but not a sailor so -1 point)

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Here is what I am thinking:

”Hi, Paul (Cayard), it’s Ken (Leger) at Tufts. I have a couple kick-ass sophomores in Lasers this year that definitely have potential. I suggest you give them a call”

”Thanks, Ken. Mitch Brindley at OD sent an awesome young woman my way last year and we are working with her now!”

Every sailing coach in the US could/should be a scout for the Olympic program. There are 276 collegiate sailing teams in the US. There just has to be some talent in that mix. They aren’t all just drinking beer. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, eliboat said:

In the US we have an almost religious devotion to a junior sailing format that is clearly inadequate.  In our system, all kids MUST sail Optis until they're 15, at which point they MUST sail C420's, which they basically sail until they are about 21 or 22 through college.  

 

Wow, really? I would have quit sailing if I'd had to sail Oppies past 11 never mind 15. I hated them

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1 hour ago, dogwatch said:

Really? UK clubs seem to be doing OK to me.

It's a popular narrative. I think the way that the youth pathway has developed has affected clubs in different ways,  some have been badly impacted by members spending time away from the club supporting their kids,  others have capitalised on the opportunities presented. 

 It's a dynamic environment,  though... the pathway system adapts,  the families adapt... ultimately most clubs adapt,  too.

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Popular, certainly. I think it's based on a fallacy: that families ambitious for the sailing careers of their children would otherwise be at the club. It's more likely that many would otherwise be on the national or international open circuits, or involve themselves in another sport with highly structured youth pathways such as tennis. At one time neighbours of ours had a son on the cusp of joining the tennis pro circuit and the time they spent taxi-ing him from one tournament or coaching session to the next made Optimist Parent look like Deadbeat Dad. And no, in the end, their son didn't make it. 

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16 hours ago, frostbit said:

Imagine if instead of 20 hyper-short races in C420s without chutes on random Saturdays in the fall, there were multiple collegiate regattas with Olympic class boats in olympic competition format. Would it cost more? yes. Would this require colleges to send trailers and do boat setup beforehand and breakdown afterwards? yes. Would practice get more complicated? somewhat. 

Wouldn't it, however, result in better prep for the Olympics with more college sailors getting a chance to try the boats in real competition and actually get good at these classes of boats? The cream would rise to the top as opposed to whoever has the deepest pockets, and there would be much more competition for spots on the Olympic team and a greater chance for success. 

The crazy thing is that the best funding in sailing on a per linear foot is in sports boats. How much did the past 4 J70 world champions each spend in the 3 years prior to their win to make their win happen? If any of the egos involved in those expenditure could have their names on making Olympic gold happen for the US with a high degree of probability for success, would they buy in?

You're misunderstanding how (and why) college sailing works. College sailing in the US isn't about high-performance racing or international dinghy development. Its about one thing only: accessibility, and the format can't exactly be radically changed without undermining that.

College sailing in the US is meant to level the playing field, both between programs and sailors. It works in such a way that even the most cash-strapped club teams can feasibly have a fleet and race against others in equal machinery, and that even the most novice of walk-on freshmen who have never seen a dinghy before can feasibly join the team and learn how to competitively sail in only a couple of years.

In the US, college sailing is perhaps the only time in a sailor's career where they will have access to coaching, practice, and top-tier racing in equal boats FOR FREE.* That's the entire premise behind college racing, and that's what it does very well. Trying to shoehorn in olympic class racing in college (other than lasers - there is already a singlehanded circuit in the fall) is like trying to make the america's cup a fleet race in Sonars. It's not a good idea because it is counter to everything college sailing is trying to be, and would completely exclude less-developed teams and sailors.

I personally know and have sailed with dozens of people who started off in the sport in college. The real trouble is keeping them in after graduation, when sailing opportunities rapidly fall off.

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9 hours ago, eliboat said:

and going back a bit further... both John Bertrand and Robbie Doyle had degrees from MIT.  Also, HOW ABOUT THAT Gabrielle Thomas getting bronze in the 200M???  Harvard Neuro bio major.  Pretty badass right there.

Anna Tunnicliffe graduated with a double major in Decision Sciences and Accounting from Old Dominion University and was a three-time ICSA (college sailing)  national champion.

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16 hours ago, stealingisacrime said:

Junior Sailing is the problem.  Kids are completely ruined before they get to college.

Most kids are sailing in boring over simplified boats in large regattas starting at age 7.  There is no tuning, just show and go.  Mom and dad (and coaches) clean the boat, prep it while junior gets poodled up in his Zhik gear and $100 sunglasses, energy bars, sports drinks and hits the water.  Does that sound like sailing as a kid to anyone over 40? 

Kids are not sailing just for fun - achievement over enjoyment - they rarely sail or practice outside the program and the programs are usually massively time consuming anyway.  Most are "over it" by age 15 and won't sail recreationally because they compete in events with 50 boats so why sail against 15 - they see it as a step into the unknown without their support network. 

In the 80's - we sailed for fun, to get around, and to compete.  We played baseball and soccer in yards and at school fields.  We played organized sports less than kids do now.  We learn how to sail, not just how to race.   Kids were well rounded.    In 1984, The USA medaled in every olympic sailing event and today, we have two 40 year olds sailing the 470 primarily because no one under 40 in the entire country cared to challenge them and we did not earn a spot in the 49er!

It is culture - the desire to try is gone for many kids sucked out of them by helicopter parents and the "everyone gets a medal" environment.  There are exceptions, as we just kicked everyone's butt in the 420 worlds, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.  

 

16 hours ago, frostbit said:

I'll add one more thing... College racing format is boring, BORING. Why do people drop out of sailing... lots of reasons, but boring is definitely one of them. Some of these kids will spend 10 years of their lives -10 YEARS - in the same general class of boats. Many of the top sailors coming out of college have NO other sailing skills and can't even tune a I420 for international competition let alone a 470 or god forbid a 49er or even a keel boat. 

This just plain isn't true. There are few top sailors in college today that haven't sailed international classes or keelboats. If you look at nationals results, I can guarantee that this is the case for every single winner in the last 10 years.

Confusing correlation with causation - "back in the 80s we all sailed for fun and somehow still won all the medals!" - is probably why US sailing is in such a dire state right now. Oh, and Stu and David aren't in the Olympics because no one else tried to challenge them - plenty of younger sailors want that spot. Stu just happens to be a 3x olympian and a professional sailor. Oh, and a Yale graduate and ICSA all-american.

12 hours ago, eliboat said:

In the US we have an almost religious devotion to a junior sailing format that is clearly inadequate.  In our system, all kids MUST sail Optis until they're 15, at which point they MUST sail C420's, which they basically sail until they are about 21 or 22 through college.  The odd FJ or Lark is thrown in there, but 99% of competitive sailors have never seen a bendy rig until after they exit college.  That's just plain dumb.  If you look back to when the US was either dominant or comfortably competitive, none of those sailors had backgrounds resembling what we have today.  Sure all countries sail Optis, but after that,  other countries force a narrative that where only shit boat like the 420 are part of the story..... also the money obviously, but I truly believe that competitive youth sailing as it exists now is beyond dumb.  My daughters are going to be sailing boats with bendy rigs long before they are 14.

 

Also a strange assumption. The US has somewhat strong and growing i420 and 29er fleets (not to mention lasers). No one is forcing kids to sail optis until they're 15 and then c420s. The switch to c420s is common simply because it is more accessible. To be competitive in i420s or 29ers requires buying the best boats (plural) from the best builders and traveling to europe at least a couple of times a year to participate in international regattas (not to mention the coaching).

c420s (and lasers) are miles easier to get into because of the large, strong domestic fleet that doesn't require very much travel and club programs that allow for training and coaching at a reasonable price. Once again, it all comes down to money.

9 hours ago, eliboat said:

yup... Miami and Florida in general is where all of this BS started.  After I had gone through 3 years of junior sailing, sailing Dyer Dhows, Flying Terns, Lasers, Rhodes 19's and a few other odd types of boats, I switched programs, and I was forced into sailing Optis, which I really resented at the time, because I had seen them during Marblehead Race Week and thought that they were pretty lame.  At any rate my dad, being who he is, figured out that the epicenter of Opti sailing was centered in Florida, specifically in St Pete, Ft Lauderdale, Clearwater and Miami.  Within half a year he was secretary of the class, and my brother and I were racing in Florida on weekends all winter long, usually playing hooky on Fridays and sometimes Mondays.  That was the beginning of the end for the US being competitive in Olympic sailing, because along with the Opti drowning out all other jr sailing boats came the C420.  In the short time I raced Optis, I saw the class go from a more or less Florida only phenomenon to guaranteed over 100 boats on the line at any decent event up and down the eastern seaboard; during this time the Sabot took a back seat to the Opti in a few short years (thankfully the Californians have kept the Sabot and the El Toro around as they are both superior to the Opti)   Years later, when hired as a private coach, I was in disbelief at what the scene had devolved into.... Sometimes 300+ boats, possibly the majority of kids not actually rigging their own boats, insane armadas of parents and South American coaches in giant RIBs shadowing the fleet from behind marked off boundaries (because if they weren't there...) and on top of that SI's that have to have verbiage that mandates coaches helping kids in distress that aren't under their tutelage.  

Almost all of the best sailors I know did not follow the current US system.  If you listen to Dave Kirkpatrick's excellent 505 Podcast you will hear some of the best dinghy sailors on the planet talk about how they came up in sailing, and 100% of the time these sailors describe an experience that is completely foreign from the JR sailing experience that currently exists.  Thankfully some people recognize what has happened, and developments like the Open bic are positive, however, single classes are not going to fix the systemic issue that exists.  Clubs, programs and school programs need to have the wisdom to choose quirky boats, or at least have sailors experience a whole lot more than they currently do before they turn 20.  

 

Comparing olympians 30 years ago to olympians today is a bit laugh worthy. Most (if not all) of the US olympic team went through junior sailing (at the very least optis) in the US, and I am willing to bet that most of the medalists this year did the same. What is wrong with a large, competitive U15 dinghy fleet? For many kids, that's their first taste of high-level, international racing.

Promoting "alternate" boats such as the open bic (which is a joke btw) is not how the US becomes good at olympic sailing again.

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I created my sailing team in college. As cradhtsck says, that would br impodsiblr except for the *mission* of it all. And great thanks to Ann Campbell all those decades ago.

I was the *only* actual salty sailor on our team. I recruited at the student activities fairv every fall: petite women with sporty natures were most important to recruit--to keep the 420 properly trimmed.

We even managed to win a few (small) events with no boats or practise. Those were the days. Good days too.

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In the UK Uni sailing and Olympic pathway are completely separate. Pretty much the last place British Sailing are looking for medal talent is in the uni scene. 

Uni sailing is great social during uni and if it serves no more purpose other than that, then it's done it's job. But it also retains some sailors in the UK who then do adult fleet racing, which is also good. The big drop off is really boat ownership as young professionals  / students can't afford boats for fleet racing. 

However, the Olympic pathway is different. The funding comes from Sport England and the Lottery. This enables 18-25 year olds to live a semi-pro lifestyle until either they make it or go and get a job / degree. This is also where the University bursaries are, you don't get them for competing for the uni, the get them for competing for the GBR. But, this is also a very small percentage of the sailors, the top 1%. Just enough to make up a decent talent pool for crew swaps and training camps, but no more. Also, the sailors who tend to drop out of this can be pretty burnt out and in terms of retention in the sport long term isn't a model example. 

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2 hours ago, crashtack said:

You're misunderstanding how (and why) college sailing works. College sailing in the US isn't about high-performance racing or international dinghy development. Its about one thing only: accessibility, and the format can't exactly be radically changed without undermining that.

College sailing in the US is meant to level the playing field, both between programs and sailors. It works in such a way that even the most cash-strapped club teams can feasibly have a fleet and race against others in equal machinery, and that even the most novice of walk-on freshmen who have never seen a dinghy before can feasibly join the team and learn how to competitively sail in only a couple of years.

In the US, college sailing is perhaps the only time in a sailor's career where they will have access to coaching, practice, and top-tier racing in equal boats FOR FREE.* That's the entire premise behind college racing, and that's what it does very well. Trying to shoehorn in olympic class racing in college (other than lasers - there is already a singlehanded circuit in the fall) is like trying to make the america's cup a fleet race in Sonars. It's not a good idea because it is counter to everything college sailing is trying to be, and would completely exclude less-developed teams and sailors.

I personally know and have sailed with dozens of people who started off in the sport in college. The real trouble is keeping them in after graduation, when sailing opportunities rapidly fall off.

You make a fair point, and I also know many top-flight sailors who came through college sailing. Perhaps there is a path for both channels.

There is another complication for the less accomplished college sailors who do not keep up with sailing after graduation. Many times they try to compete in other formats and find the skills sets they learned to be narrow and not easily transferable to other formats. Some get discouraged and don't pursue any further. 

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As an observer (and a major sponsor of US Intercollegiate sailing for a quite a while in the 90's 000's) I'd say that the changes of boats in the lympix has also had an effect. The IC squad pathway worked ok when the lympics classes were "traditional" and results were based on tactical sailing....The IC teams sailed in local comps with shitter boats... but it taught strategy, rules and tactical advantage....and when the hot prospects were identified from these programs, they were given cash and sent out to buy the boatspeed. The results were OK. Today, the lympix classes demand specialised boat skills...so buying boatspeed won't get you there...you need time in the class...and those classes don't actually exist as fleets anywhere except in the SA sanctioned calendar (Lasers are the exception). So you need to have a well funded squad that travel the world with full coaching support on a near full time basis....that's the new model. SO....the USA have a long way to go to catch up...and a lot of money to spend..if they want to play in the arms race that is lympic sailing.  

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59 minutes ago, Mozzy Sails said:

In the UK Uni sailing and Olympic pathway are completely separate. Pretty much the last place British Sailing are looking for medal talent is in the uni scene. 

Uni sailing is great social during uni and if it serves no more purpose other than that, then it's done it's job. But it also retains some sailors in the UK who then do adult fleet racing, which is also good. The big drop off is really boat ownership as young professionals  / students can't afford boats for fleet racing. 

However, the Olympic pathway is different. The funding comes from Sport England and the Lottery. This enables 18-25 year olds to live a semi-pro lifestyle until either they make it or go and get a job / degree. 

Amen!

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2 hours ago, crashtack said:
19 hours ago, frostbit said:

I'll add one more thing... College racing format is boring, BORING. Why do people drop out of sailing... lots of reasons, but boring is definitely one of them. Some of these kids will spend 10 years of their lives -10 YEARS - in the same general class of boats. Many of the top sailors coming out of college have NO other sailing skills and can't even tune a I420 for international competition let alone a 470 or god forbid a 49er or even a keel boat. 

This just plain isn't true. There are few top sailors in college today that haven't sailed international classes or keelboats. If you look at nationals results, I can guarantee that this is the case for every single winner in the last 10 years.

My point here isn't that everyone finds it boring, but it is definitely selecting for a certain kind/size of sailor. It is boring to sail in the same boats over and over again in the same format over and over again. Agreed that the top sailors seek and find opportunities to sail outside of that format. That is one reason why they are the top sailors; b/c they don't stick to just that format. Overall, though, not disagreeing with you. 

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1 hour ago, frostbit said:

You make a fair point, and I also know many top-flight sailors who came through college sailing. Perhaps there is a path for both channels.

There is another complication for the less accomplished college sailors who do not keep up with sailing after graduation. Many times they try to compete in other formats and find the skills sets they learned to be narrow and not easily transferable to other formats. Some get discouraged and don't pursue any further. 

"Getting discoirsged" because of losing is all good. I have made a career of losing and eill not give up

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kind of hard to blame the opti when literally the entire world uses it. What the entire world does not do is use high school and college sailing as a fundamental part of a young adults sailing time. There is no way around this, and there is no option for "let's use olympic boats in college". The college I went to could probably afford it, along with a some of NEISA, Stanford, Michigan, and maybe USF -- and of course Navy/KP. 

 

Before college I used to think it was stupid not to have adjustable rigs, kites, and traps. After college, I realize the constraints most universities operate under, locations, plus the format of racing. ICSA will never support olympic sailing directly, and i doubt it does indirectly. 

The c420 sucks, but it serves its purpose adequately for collegiate (high school and college). But, begging the question from my first paragraph... does collegiate sailing benefit Olympic sailing? hell no. Does it benefit American sailing? Maybe. At least with the IC37 pulling heavily from current and ex college sailing participants. But... I really question if that focus for inclusion is benefiting the long term growth of the sport (i believe that is a stated purpose of collegiate sailing, why else be inclusive, at any rate).  

 

At the end of the day, I will argue the biggest impendent is olympic funding, though. By a wide, wide, wide, wide, go the cone, wide, wide , wide, margin. To put your life on hold, beg for money, get no support from USSOT until you've proven you probably don't even need their support, to compete for a slot against those who are about as good as you but are independently wealthy... fuck, why bother. If you're that good and want to sail, go get paid to sail 52's, amcup, whatever. 

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It is not the boats it is the early stage training construct. 

We are training kids to sail like we train adults - in a robotic repetitive way that is far from age appropriate.  We start at an age when most want to grow up and be either a power ranger or a firefighter.  Then we wonder why they are not sailing for life.  

Boats, funding, college sailing... all valid points but the real issue is how we pass on the passion for sailing to children at an age when they are able to develop that passion.  The lather, rinse, repeat model is obviously not working.

We need to start creating sailors for life, then we can create Olympic champions.   Fun over achievement will deliver greatness down the road - athlete development is a marathon not a sprint. 

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An intrtesting questin. How many of my Jinior fleet freinds from allc tjose years ago are as insatiably addicted to sailing as me?

And tje kids I taugjt in thr 80s....jow mnay are sailing?

These are questions wr couofd all ask ourselved

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On 8/2/2021 at 2:26 PM, gohawks said:

...  Its literally the difference between being a professional vs amateur athlete.  The gap is massive....

I think it comes down to how you pay professional athletes and the costs to support them...

Some countries and some sports favour the tax payer (or in the case of lotos a more complicated tax on stupidity or fantasy) paying, others prefer the audience/consumer/marketing partner pay.

I’m a fan of sailing, but as a taxpayer I have other priorities than sailing (or any other Olympic sport).

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Have not posted in a very very long time - here is a reply to like 80 of your replies.

I grew up in Philadelphia - Jon Wright was the mainsheet trimmer for Dennis back then and lived in, wait for it Ardmore(just outside Philly). Jon MacCasland was at Cooper River and lived just outside Philly (Star World Champ). Marsh Creek and Cooper River suck ass - but JW and Little Mac and the host of others who used to show up, sometimes Max Skelly - made it amazing Laser sailing. Long time gone by now.........move!

Having watched nearly 1/5 of my college team contemplate Olympic pathways in the 90s at Tufts, the cost was just staggering to me back then, and these are families of elite east coast/ or CA families - many who just have better or other options and recognized Olympic US sailing is just a shit show. Many were super talented, but competing against Lottery funded RYA and Australia and the tight geographical and cultural advantages of Denmark/Norway/Sweden/Germany/Spain/France seemed daunting and it still is.

I mean Germany won 3 medals, They host Keil Week and have like a trillion 420 and optimist and skiff sailors, they can drive to Hyeres, Marseilles, Spain etc, train to the UK, you just cant overstate this, a club sailor when they are 15 can go to Keil Week and sail against the best in the world and drive home on Sunday night. Germany has great funding too and it is really working.

Other that, individuallism must also play here, Americans try to cowboy and be the hero on there own too often - the team needs to keep the knowledge pathways alive, in the USA, as we turn over coaches and sailors, we have to relearn how to win in each class....and coach them.

For me its

1. Funding

2. Geography and Culture 

3. Individualism gone awry

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15 hours ago, eliboat said:

Years later, when hired as a private coach, I was in disbelief at what the scene had devolved into.... Sometimes 300+ boats, possibly the majority of kids not actually rigging their own boats, insane armadas of parents and South American coaches in giant RIBs shadowing the fleet from behind marked off boundaries (because if they weren't there...) and on top of that SI's that have to have verbiage that mandates coaches helping kids in distress that aren't under their tutelage.  

I worked as a coach from 1997 through 2009 at a variety of strong teams around the country... I did see a devolution in the junior team culture, and it seemed largely due to parents.  It seems part and parcel of affluent culture nowadays, but these kids were literally deprived of opportunities to assume adequate responsibility for their personal sailing program.  The kids weren't required to look after "little details" like rigging your own boat and understanding race instructions themselves.   For some of these kids, even showing up to practice on time and prepared (rested, fed, watered, appropriately clothed/geared, etc) was like pulling teeth.

Sailing is so complex and places a premium on technical details, more than any sport I've ever done.  Dinghy racing is also physically and mentally demanding.  I didn't understand how these kids were expected to be strong competitors when the junior sailing team was a glorified babysitting service.  

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On 8/3/2021 at 10:12 AM, Alan Crawford said:

And, while a quick check with Professor Google says that lacrosse is played in 62 nations, how many can truly compete with the US on a global basis?

With US olympic sailing, I agree with a lot of comments here in this, what has now become a perpetual every 4 year discussion. I suspect the powers to be at US Failing have no interest to tap into the knowledge here.....

Back to lacrosse and a comparison with sailing. Was one explanation as to the prior US success in Olympic sailing simply because "back in the day" there were not as many nations with the ability to compete at the same level as the US? Maybe US has slipped somewhat in recent years, but can this be more of a case where the abilities of many other countries has greatly improved? And some of this overall global improvement is thanks to more easily accessible classes like the Laser vs, say, a Flying Dutchman?

The USA has won the championship ten times and Canada the other three.[1] With 46 nations competing, the 2018 WLC in Israel was the largest tournament and was the first championship held outside of Australia, Canada, England or the United States.

Kid played in the worlds here in 2018, They got to the Iroquoix game....  1 or 2 brackets back from the big game, but...  Those fuckers were allowed to play with the real hand made wood sticks.  Kid played attack.  His arms/upper body were totally bruised by the end of the first quarter, Learning experience that...  

 

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3 hours ago, stealingisacrime said:

It is not the boats it is the early stage training construct. 

We are training kids to sail like we train adults - in a robotic repetitive way that is far from age appropriate.  We start at an age when most want to grow up and be either a power ranger or a firefighter.  Then we wonder why they are not sailing for life.  

Boats, funding, college sailing... all valid points but the real issue is how we pass on the passion for sailing to children at an age when they are able to develop that passion.  The lather, rinse, repeat model is obviously not working.

We need to start creating sailors for life, then we can create Olympic champions.   Fun over achievement will deliver greatness down the road - athlete development is a marathon not a sprint. 

I never liked this analysis. Watch some kids play soccer or football. They aren't out to lazily pass the ball back and forth, at least by 10yo. Also, if you just want to go out and have fun, then do so. My parents dropped me off on sundays when there were no coaches around and I'd sail solo (radial) or with some friends (lasers/420s) and either practice or just muck around on a breezy day. The youth director let us take the c420's out without coaches, and we owned our own lasers. Got royally reamed one time sailing to the very north end of sarasota bay and didn't get back till long after dark. When I was old enough to drive I kept doing the same thing, but usually just focused solo-boat practice by that point in my life. 

Those of us who are competitive will get bored and drop out of sailing for other competitive avenues, if we are not pushed  (granted, I did not start racing till 13, so... i dunno. I just sailed with my parents on leadboats before that and played school soccer). 

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Have you tried setting up the 'US World Olympics'?  You could model it on the Americas Cup, sail it in classes like club 420 and Sunfish and Star etc that only mericans race, use the US legal system for measurement and protests, have a hefty 'joining' fee maintain quality, and make all overseas competitors sail to the venue?  Surely there must be a way to level the playing field, without having to do all that wet and uncomfortable 'training'?

Worked for Football?

 

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why is it important that the US do well/"be competitive" at sailing in the Olympics?

the olympics have devolved - now really much more about a massive money making circus for a corrupt few.

and sailing in the US does not need it - it only affects a small handful of sailors.

to be competitive requires a 'hot house' environment from an early age, which likely breaks more potential sailors than it ultimately builds.

And it requires significant money - not really something we should spend taxpayer money on or powerball money.

 

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28 minutes ago, maxstaylock said:

Have you tried setting up the 'US World Olympics'?  You could model it on the Americas Cup, sail it in classes like club 420 and Sunfish and Star etc that only mericans race, use the US legal system for measurement and protests, have a hefty 'joining' fee maintain quality, and make all overseas competitors sail to the venue?  Surely there must be a way to level the playing field, without having to do all that wet and uncomfortable 'training'?

Worked for Football?

 

Cayard better be reading this

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6 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

why is it important that the US do well/"be competitive" at sailing in the Olympics?

It is meaningful for a lot of people.  It is a cultural tradition of success in US competitive sailing that a lot of people are invested in, spanning many generations.  Some young sailors have so much passion, energy and drive that what you refer to as a "hot house" is an ideal situation where they feel engaged.  It's not for everyone, but some people do want to spend every waking minute in pursuit of a goal, and what better way to do it than spend your life on the water and have that experience with nature?  It can be a very satisfying way to live life.  I found that there was no better place for me to be as a teenager, on a team with friends, striving for success.  I carry a lot of those experiences from that time period as life lessons that serve me 20 years later.  Overall, a very positive experience.  

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2 hours ago, shaggy said:

The USA has won the championship ten times and Canada the other three.[1] With 46 nations competing, the 2018 WLC in Israel was the largest tournament and was the first championship held outside of Australia, Canada, England or the United States.

 

 

Interestingly, the Iroquois travel to the worlds with Iroquois Nation passports. If Iroquois Nation gets an Olympic medal in 2028, that would be great. 

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14 minutes ago, gohawks said:

 I carry a lot of those experiences

I get it.  I spent 5 years of my life training on an 'Olympic pathway' (not in sailing but in a somewhat similar niche sport that requires competition in Europe to be at all competitive).  There was a twist for me however . . .  My 'year' was going to be 1980.  When Carter announced the boycott I opened my locker and told the team they could take anything they wanted. I headed off to b-school and moved on in life - never ever touched that sport again.

So, I get it . . . but I dont see it as at all important.  There are a huge number of potential outlets for those sort of competitive achievers. Many of those outlets probably more productive for most of those kids long term than sailing.

 

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2 hours ago, spankoka said:

The US is an outlier here. Yes, it is US amateurs against pros in a lot of Olympic sports. 

That is baloney. The US funds it's Olympic athletes more than most countries. It is (like the UK system) funded so that sports that expect more medals get more funding. The US also finds a lot of expensive teams. 

The UK funds sailing more because it expects (and gets) more medals.

As I said above, the US invented professional sport and has the highest paid sportspeople so yanks  complaining that it is unfair is somewhat ironic

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Really?, the US baseball team in Tokyo doesn't have a single active MLB player. Japan on the other hand has an all NPB lineup. That being said, we will know soon if it will be the US or the ROK that meets Japan in the gold medal game. 

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So? you'll notice we don't play our national football team either. Those are the rules for most pro sports. 

But US sailing is funded to £2m pa. Much less than UK it is true, because as I say we expect more from sailing so put more in, but still a lot more than many nations

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Everybody is focusing on the wrong things. Getting Olympic success isn't about the team itself, or about university vs team etc. It's a system that starts with learning to sail, then  junior club programs, then regional youth programs, national youth programs etc. In the UK, the defining moment wasn't lottery money as so many think, but Jim Saltonstall coming in and establishing the youth program. The process takes a large group of youth sailors and gives them the skills needed. Jim's camps were sizable. By the time people are ready to progress to the senior program (Olympic team), everybody knows how to train and what is expected of them, and they slot straight in. Yes, the UK got lucky that just when Jim's first "crop" were ready, lottery money came in, but without that early work, there would have been no success.

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Simon,

Can I add a little...

1. Getting good young people interested and upskilled (say from 10 to 15 ages) looks important.

2. Having fun boats is important... I.e. not POS like 420 or 470. The oppy might be ok below 10 yo.

3. Less emphasis on WL racing adds to fun.

4. There will be no, none, nada, zero non-apparent wind apparatus in the Olympics after 2028

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18 minutes ago, Frogman56 said:

1. Getting good young people interested and upskilled (say from 10 to 15 ages) looks important.

The "shout at kids in Optis" approach is only effective for a certain percentage of the population. Many youth programs are transitioning to a more "adventure camp" approach, emphasizing the social and problem-solving aspects of the sport and allowing the youngest kids to sail with their friends in bigger boats like Picos and Fevas. Probably the best solution for the marine industry as they may build avid cruisers/daysailers, but difficult to identify kids with the talent and drive to be good racers. The gamble here is that a more hands-off approach, while it may foster a stronger affinity for sailing, may shortchange kids starting their racing careers if they aren't doing the Opti circuit at 10.

2. Having fun boats is important... I.e. not POS like 420 or 470. The oppy might be ok below 10 yo.

Most American clubs have huge sunk costs into c420's, Optis, and Lasers; as a function of time (50 years of habit) and competition (raced literally everywhere, dual use for collegiate/uni and enormous resale market) For clubs, buying entirely new fleets as an economic concern probably outweighs the desire for new (or at least different) boats. Having been party to the attempt for the Open Bic to gain a foothold in the Midwest, I don't think shiny new toys are the silver bullet. However, the "opti mom" demographic that would have bought new boats anyway may help spur the growth of N15/29er/UFO/Waszp fleets so that Junior is able to compete in the new foiling paradigm.

3. Less emphasis on WL racing adds to fun.

Easy to get lost in the weeds with relays, slalom courses and downwind starts. (and team racing is duuuuummmmmmbbbbbbbb) I've found it takes about 2 seasons for kids to fully grasp the windward-leeward course; probably less if they were training full time somewhere warm but for Juniors sailing only in the northern summer, trying to introduce a distance race or point-to-point is usually an exercise in frustration

4. There will be no, none, nada, zero non-apparent wind apparatus in the Olympics after 2028

Big fat offshore leadmines seem to fly in the face of that prediction

 

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10 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

So? you'll notice we don't play our national football team either. Those are the rules for most pro sports. 

But US sailing is funded to £2m pa. Much less than UK it is true, because as I say we expect more from sailing so put more in, but still a lot more than many nations

Apologies, I checked and US pro baseball players are allowed to play. But because it is your MLB season they are sticking with that (club contracts perhaps).

So bit of an own goal there really

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3 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

Simon,

Can I add a little...

1. Getting good young people interested and upskilled (say from 10 to 15 ages) looks important.

2. Having fun boats is important... I.e. not POS like 420 or 470. The oppy might be ok below 10 yo.

3. Less emphasis on WL racing adds to fun.

4. There will be no, none, nada, zero non-apparent wind apparatus in the Olympics after 2028

I am not sure I can agree on this.

I see 2 separate stages - getting them hooked, which is about kids having fun and wanting to go out in boats. The only upskilling needed at this stage is the basics. Only once they are hooked do you go for serious upskilling. 

I don't think the boats are important at all. Almost all the current top Brits and those coming through sailed the boats you call POS. The boats don't need to be fun. It's the overall activity that needs to be engaging enough to keep them coming back. In the UK youth system, its the weekends with all their friends and the other activities that are as important as the boats. When I was in the UK the youth sailing scene was serious social fun and you didn't want to miss any of it.

There will always be non apparent wind equipment in the Olympics and it is absolutely correct that it should be. I think that after the recent selection trials for a new single hander with the Laser winning through, it will be a while before that gets revisited and even if it finally gets replaced, I cannot see an apparent wind boat getting selected because of who has to vote on it (the member countries that make up World Sailing). The same applies to the 2 person boat. Why? Because too many countries do not have the "infrastructure" in place to teach apparent wind sailing and it is a huge leap from what people begin sailing in to apparent wind and/or foiling. The IOC also decreases that the type of sailing also has to reflect what is going on in the global sailing scene. At the moment, there is not wide spread adoption of apparent wind sailing at the exclusion of "conventional boats" so there will always be conventional boats.

But that misses the point. The Olympic classes are irrelevant to  attracting sailors. Big call, I know, but when I was in Weymouth in September 2019, I couldn't believe how many youngsters were there for the 470 nationals which was for most considered to be the beginning of their 2024 campaigns. There were loads of new "mixed" crews getting themselves ready. Why would so many be starting a new Olympic cycle in a POS when they could choose the 49er or N17, for example? They weren't being bribed or coerced to be there and there was no way that it was being seen as an easy option. Consider Hannah Mills who tried the 49er but decided she actually preferred sailing470's, and I don't believe that it was just because she won more in them. She simply preferred the style of sailing and if you watched the top 470 sailors at the games, you had to be impressed by how physical they were, even if you might think the upwind body movements are a bit strange!

And Australia, the land of the skiff, where apparent wind sailing, small boat foiling and other crazy shit began, won in the POS classes. Go figure.

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I think calling them pos shows an ignorance of how much fun they can be. The fun is often in the racing not the speed of the boats. I have raced a wide variety of boats and some of the best fun has been in slow "pos". Whether lasers or lead mines

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Wow!

Defenders of POS unite...

For the record I have had plenty of fun in slow equipment.... old gaffers and the like. But sailing (for example) a Cherub was about 3 times as much fun as a 470...lighter by about 50 %, faster, easier to rig and handle etc

One issue may be that the gap between (say) the 49er and the I14, as an alternative, is too wide?

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Putting the olympics aside (which I personally think are a too narrow and tainted objective) - how do you achieve a world class cadre in a sport? My personal experience would suggest:

coaching - is super critical in all sorts of hard (skills and fitness) and soft (motivation and psychology) ways and good potential coaches are actually harder to identify and develop than good athletes.

You of course need a recruiting base, but with  country the size of america with the clubs and school programs that's really not going to be a failure point.  Where the failure point is failing to talent spot that existing pool.  It is not adequate to advance (only) those who are winning - even in a more raw physical sport (like bicycling) that is not adequate - there are other equally important qualities that screen future champions (work ethic, self awareness and honesty, competitive fire, the ability to recover from and learn from losses etc). This deep talent spotting is a coaching skill.  Highly attendended camps and large gathered racing events are pretty important to do this at all efficiently rather than going around and looking at kids by the ones and twos in low competitive environments.

Bottom-line - if the USA does not yet have a single medalist - they most likely the USA does not have a single truly world class coach.

competition - chicken and egg for geographically isolated country, but if you dont have it domestically you have to give the kids access to see and experience high level competitors, and the earlier that starts the higher their standards will be.  And foreign travel/competition costs money and time, and it will detract from the kids education (although also enhance it is soft ways by expanding their experience) in ways which may hurt their college and later opportunities - is a real trade-off.

motivation - the kids cannot be entitled rich kids who are 'giving it a go' until they go to yale law school - or if that is who they are the coaches need to find the few of them who actually have the heart of champions and fire them up.  And be willing to tell rich parents than johnny simply does not have what it takes.

 

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2 hours ago, SimonN said:

And Australia, the land of the skiff, where apparent wind sailing, small boat foiling and other crazy shit began, won in the POS classes. Go figure.

Yes, curious this.  Australia did much better in the slow boats than the skiffs and cats. 
 

As to why the US aren’t competitive… all countries have to pick and chose the sports they want to compete in.  Ethopia prioritises distance running over swimming, the Netherlands puts cycling above baseball.  The US will win more medals per $ in athletics than sailing given the uphill battle to compete with Europe and Australasian so that is where the money goes. 

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Our junior sailing programs, high school and college - almost exclusively use less athletic slow boats.  We are grooming slow keel boat sailors.

But it’s wrong my to blame the junior programs.

We are bad at adult athletic sailing, like the Olympics or AC, because our clubs have largely abandoned that type is sailing.  Just compare our sailing capital to Sydney.  On Sydney harbor you have fleets of adults sailing 18 skiffs.  In Newport RI our best college sailors are channeled on to Sonars or sitting on bigger keel boats.  No clubs on Narragansett Bay emphasize adult athletic sailing in boats without lead.

Our adults who want sail 49ers or Nacra 17s - or even antique 470s - must live like hermits and practice alone or leave the country.  
 

Our clubs have abandoned this end of the sport in favor of sailing in a seated position on the biggest keel boat we can afford.  Stop blaming US Sailing or Junior programs.

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The USA has hundreds of millions of dollars on the mens basketball court....3 players on contracts of over $50 million a year......how do ya reckon the bookies rate them? The lympix is about the investment...follow the money. If you're not getting results, its because you don't value the sport....simple!

 

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17 minutes ago, Couta said:

The USA has hundreds of millions of dollars on the mens basketball court....3 players on contracts of over $50 million a year......how do ya reckon the bookies rate them? The lympix is about the investment...follow the money. If you're not getting results, its because you don't value the sport....simple!

 

Money is ofc a very useful tool, no question about that . . . . but we have a gold and bronze in fencing which has F*(K all money.  They do have a few truly excellent coaches, mentors (like Peter Westbrook) and focused concentrated high level club competition.

1 hour ago, cbulger said:

 On Sydney harbor you have fleets of adults sailing 18 skiffs.  In Newport RI our best college sailors are channeled on to Sonars or sitting on bigger keel boats.  No clubs on Narragansett Bay emphasize adult athletic sailing in boats without lead.

 

It is way too late at adult sailing if you are trying to build a cadre of world champions

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1 minute ago, estarzinger said:

Money is ofc a very useful tool, no question about that . . . . but we have a gold and bronze in fencing which has F*(K all money.

It is way too late at adult sailing if you are trying to build a cadre of world champions

Nobody gives a rats arse about fencing...so yeah...it's an outlier. But where there's kudos, there's money...sailing....equestrian....tennis....golf....football....basketball....and of course, where there's national pride, you'll find investment....Like Bulgaria & weightlifting...

 

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Fastyacht,

Maybe "apparent wind boat" could be translated as " boat that uses maximum RM most of the time, upwind and down"

So e.g. moth, 18 skiff, 49er, I14, nacra etc.

The apparent wind reference is to that angle probably not being much greater than about 90 degrees...

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Couta said:

The USA has hundreds of millions of dollars on the mens basketball court....3 players on contracts of over $50 million a year......how do ya reckon the bookies rate them? The lympix is about the investment...follow the money. If you're not getting results, its because you don't value the sport....simple!

 

Indeed. More grist to the irony mill of americans complaining that other nations have pros against your amateurs. Especially as basketball is a fairly minor sport in most countries outside USA- or to re-use the above expression - most countries don't give a rat's arse about basketball

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On 8/1/2021 at 8:04 AM, frostbit said:

US College sailing format. 

yep, race mostly in FJ's, 420's without traps or kites and in some cases even slower, more outdated dinghies and the results are predictable. 

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11 hours ago, Frogman56 said:

? WTF....

This is about the Olympics, more or less.

But offshore, there will be fuck all non apparent wind new builds in the same time frame.

someone hasn't been paying attention

https://www.sailing.org/classesandequipment/offshore/paris2024_equipment.php

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1 minute ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Is this still correct? I thought it had been dropped. https://www.sail-world.com/news/238448/IOC-gives-Kiteboard-two-Medal-events-for-2024 

I recall Shirley Robertson was preparing for it with visible glee. 

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Just now, martin 'hoff said:

Is this still correct? I thought it had been dropped. https://www.sail-world.com/news/238448/IOC-gives-Kiteboard-two-Medal-events-for-2024 

I recall Shirley Robertson was preparing for it with visible glee. 

The original submission to the IOC was denied, mostly based on universality and infrastructure cost, but USS (and a lot of cash) are throwing in for it so I could see the 470 getting dropped in '28 in exchange

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