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Carbon Cutter No. three launched last week.


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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

Three down and one to go.

Boats are being kept as close to identical as possible including the paint job.

BP no. 3.jpg

Does that mean that improvements/changes made to the later hulls are modded back into the earlier ones, or are the furnishings and equipment "locked" into the design as they would be in a full on production line?

Beautiful boats Mr. Perry. Well done.

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Remodel:

Not sure. I think the plan was to replace the conventional batteries on No. 1 with lithium batteries but I don't know if that was ever done. I can ask.

The change on deck to No. one was the bottom end fitting for the spin poles that are stowed on the mast. That would have been implemented on 2 and 3.

For No 3 I think there will probably be no changes. Client wants all four boats to be identical. I suspect over time there will be some minor evolution in all four boats. Seems logical as the boats are sailed more.

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Those are magnificent boats.  Their designed use case won't be everyone's use case, but that's the way of design, and these boats seem both very well-optimised for their purpose and exceptionally elegant.

Congratulations, @Bob Perry.  Your versatility is amazing to watch: you can knock 'em out of the park in so many different genres.  Of all your contemporaries, I think that only Nigel Irens can move so nimbly between very different types of design, and even he seems to have less variety.

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Very impressive Mr Perry! 

as I write this I’m looking out my window at a neighbors Valiant 40. Easily the sweetest lines in the yard. 

Now how about designing a modest aft cockpit moderate displacement 34 foot twin keeler with a junk rig? ;-) 

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Should have named them all the same. Then just register one boat and say you've lost the registration paper for boat #2 and 3 and get replacement registration papers. Saves a lot on the taxes and/or annual fees :)

Seriously they look nice Bob. Running backstays too?

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14 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Those are magnificent boats.  Their designed use case won't be everyone's use case, but that's the way of design, and these boats seem both very well-optimised for their purpose and exceptionally elegant.

Congratulations, @Bob Perry.  Your versatility is amazing to watch: you can knock 'em out of the park in so many different genres.  Of all your contemporaries, I think that only Nigel Irens can move so nimbly between very different types of design, and even he seems to have less variety.

Does that mean that you know what the actual use case for these boats is?

Magnificent as this whole project is, I’m still baffled by the whole “I’ll have four of them, please” thing:D

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2 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

Does that mean that you know what the actual use case for these boats is?

Magnificent as this whole project is, I’m still baffled by the whole “I’ll have four of them, please” thing:D

We did hear the 2 boats were intended to sail to The Place Down Under, and I've seen few boats that looked more capable for the trip.

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3 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

Does that mean that you know what the actual use case for these boats is?

Magnificent as this whole project is, I’m still baffled by the whole “I’ll have four of them, please” thing:D

Alpha, in one of the previous threads, Bob explained that these boats are intended for offshore passagemaking.  Not for noodling around coasts or for circumnavigation, but offshore passages.   And the four of them is to allow them to be dispersed around the globe near the owner's family.

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42 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Alpha, in one of the previous threads, Bob explained that these boats are intended for offshore passagemaking.  Not for noodling around coasts or for circumnavigation, but offshore passages.   And the four of them is to allow them to be dispersed around the globe near the owner's family.

I did gather that, Two Legs. Sounds great to have one East Coast, one West Coast, one in Europe and the last Downunder somewhere.

But surely the point of passage making is to connect these areas under sail? For example if you take your European boat to cross the Atlantic, you end up with two boats on the US east coast...

On the other hand they seem to be immensely over-specced for local cruising...

I don’t want to imply in any way that Mr Lucky is wrong in what his plan is, just that I don’t understand it...:D

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24 minutes ago, alphafb552 said:

I did gather that, Two Legs. Sounds great to have one East Coast, one West Coast, one in Europe and the last Downunder somewhere.

But surely the point of passage making is to connect these areas under sail? For example if you take your European boat to cross the Atlantic, you end up with two boats on the US east coast...

On the other hand they seem to be immensely over-specced for local cruising...

I don’t want to imply in any way that Mr Lucky is wrong in what his plan is, just that I don’t understand it...:D

Fair points, Alpha ... but I guess when you have that much money, then the cost of shipping the Yurp boat back to Yurp is small change.   Similarly with the other boats.

And when you have paid professionals managing the boat fleet, it's no hassle for the owner to stick a few pins in a world map and say "make it so, my good chap".

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It would be really cool to get 3 clones of the original owners. and crew and the. have an around the world race you could watch it 24/7 and gamble on the out come.  It could be fixed [by the Mob] and we would never be certain who really won.   Think of the discussions.

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9 minutes ago, guerdon said:

It would be really cool to get 3 clones of the original owners. and crew and the. have an around the world race you could watch it 24/7 and gamble on the out come.  It could be fixed [by the Mob] and we would never be certain who really won.   Think of the discussions.

I think that these boats would benefit from a more interesting race course than the usual clipper route.  How about a circumnavigation of the Americas, from St Johns to St Johns, then

  1. Leave Kvitøya (Svalbard) to stbd
  2. Leave Reykjavik (Iceland) to port
  3. Leave Dungeness (England) to starboard
  4. Leave Cape Horn to starboard
  5. Leave Kangiqsujuaq (northern Quebec) to starboard

 

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10 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

There is only one owner and he has his own plans for the boats. 

It's all your fault, Bob, for designing such stunning boats :) 

They trigger dreams in the rest of us.

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Transom hung rudders like this have to be pretty big on this size of boat. Look at the size of the composite gudgeons! I agree they're not the best feature of the boat. But the owner wanted a transom hung rudder and that is what he got.

 

My guess is the owner wants the ultimate bug out platform for him and his family pre-positioned around the globe.

When the world ends, he can get to at least one of them and set sail for some area not affected by global warming sea level rise/pandemic/meltdown of world economy/nuclear war/asteriod strike etc. 

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7 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I think they’re exceptional also but the big white rudder is distracting at this angle. Seems like carrying the grey sheer line stripe on the rudder and tiller would look better. Flame away.

How about cutting off the unused trailing edge of the rudder above the waterline?  Helpful only to the tiller, I guess.

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Proa:

That is an aesthetic choice. Simple as that. Obviously I like it as drawn as does the client. I don't like "anemic" rudder heads. That's an East Coast look. I go for a more robust PNW look.

 

Kenny:

That might work. As was already pointed out by someone here, the bootstripe was supposed to be carried onto the rudder. I talked to Jim Betts about that today. They made the same mistake on No. 1

013.JPG

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

My guess is the owner wants the ultimate bug out platform for him and his family pre-positioned around the globe.

When the world ends, he can get to at least one of them and set sail for some area not affected by global warming sea level rise/pandemic/meltdown of world economy/nuclear war/asteriod strike etc. 

It has always seemed to me that the flaw in that plan is that by time things are sufficiently bad that you want to abandon home and relocate to somewhere remote, the said remote place is unlikely to be welcoming refugees.  So you have sailed the ocean in your perfect getaway boat, but now what?

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Just now, TwoLegged said:

It has always seemed to me that the flaw in that plan is that by time things are sufficiently bad that you want to abandon home and relocate to somewhere remote, the said remote place is unlikely to be welcoming refugees.  So you have sailed the ocean in your perfect getaway boat, but now what?

By the time you abandon home, someone else has staked out swiped your boat.

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1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

By the time you abandon home, someone else has staked out swiped your boat.

Mr Lucky has a private island with his own private marina, so any boat moored there is less likely to be swiped than something near a city.  

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Totally cool Bob, I go by one and two that are tied side by side on Orcatraz Island and wondered what the timing for three and four was.  God I love crazy wealthy people, wonderful it is continuing to completion and all 4 beauties are being built.  Cheers Mate!

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

Transom hung rudders like this have to be pretty big on this size of boat. Look at the size of the composite gudgeons! I agree they're not the best feature of the boat. But the owner wanted a transom hung rudder and that is what he got.

 

My guess is the owner wants the ultimate bug out platform for him and his family pre-positioned around the globe.

When the world ends, he can get to at least one of them and set sail for some area not affected by global warming sea level rise/pandemic/meltdown of world economy/nuclear war/asteriod strike etc. 

The Falklands maybe?

That worked very well for some locals here.

William Curtis, from Mission, BC, did extensive research on places they could settle that would be safe in the event of a nuclear conflict. The family moved to Port Stanley, in the Falkland Islands – an isolated community far from strife and conflict. In 1981.

A few months later, Argentina invaded the Falklands,

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

Longy: Flowerman never ran the program. Flowerman was and still is the clients pro skipper and involved with rigging the boats. He had nothing to do with any design decisions.

 

Didn't mean to imply that, I knew he came in after the build was started.  The traditional term for his position is no longer in use, none of the current titles really encompass the job. He's way too talented to be called just a sailor

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Great looking boat Bob. You still definitely have your chops!

BTW, I agree that the boot strip and shear stripe need to be carried on through the rudder. Cutting it short creates a discontinuity. 

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On 8/3/2021 at 3:13 AM, Bob Perry said:

That is an aesthetic choice. Simple as that. Obviously I like it as drawn as does the client. I don't like "anemic" rudder heads. That's an East Coast look. I go for a more robust PNW look.

I get the robust-look thing.  This boat is not some spirit-of-tradition varnish queen.

But why the very sharp top aft corner to the rudder head?  My non-expert eye would have though that a wee bit of a radius would fit in better.

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Alphafb:

You are  very welcome. It's a unique project and so different in todays world of new boats. I figured most sailors would be interested.

 

Leggs:

Rudder head treatment: Same reason for most of the design features. Because that is exactly what I wanted. Simple as that. I do not care for the tapered rudder head. I find it weak and anemic looking. I like a strong looking rudder head, similar in many way to those rudder on traditional Dutch boats. But that's not where the idea came from. Look at Bill Garden's outboard rudders. They are strong looking statements. What was important to me is that the rudder look the way I wanted it to look.

 

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I was out having my morning pipe and doing some watering and wondering about a more cogent response to you question on my rudder head styling.

One of my favorite composers is Robert Schumann. After two failed suicide attempts Schumann committed himself to an institution for the "insane". He died there leaving his wife Clara and his kids in the capable hands of his lodger, the very handsome, talented and young, Johannes Brahms. Consensus is Schumann starved himself to death but siphilis may have been involved.

Schumann frequently used a device in his compositions he called "sphynxes" or "riddles". These were short passages that to most ears, did not fit the overall work. "Why is that there?" Think of them as "spit out your gum and pay attention" passages designed to get your attention. They certainly worked in that context. Today, of course, Schumann's compositions are revered by most lovers of music.

I do the same thing from time to time. I add an aesthetic detail that is there to grab your attention while removing the aesthetic from that which you would normally expect. For me giving you what you would expect is boring and too predictable. I think just maybe, the fact that you called this detail out is proof that it worked.

 

Bup low rider - Copy.jpg

Buppy black.jpg

Griot sail plan.jpg

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I watched a documentary of his life and he had a piano delivered to the asylum, but was only allowed to play infrequently. Another added torture to his short life. He was prolific during his time at the asylum…

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Schumann is buried just half an hour or so from where I live. 

I didn't know. I think I will go visit, it's quite a monumental grave they gave him (and his wife, 40 years later). The people of Bonn had a two-day long festival in Schumann's honor, which gave the funds for the monument on the 'Alter Friedhof'.

This place is educational after all. Who'd have thunk...

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6 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I do the same thing from time to time. I add an aesthetic detail that is there to grab your attention while removing the aesthetic from that which you would normally expect. For me giving you what you would expect is boring and too predictable. I think just maybe, the fact that you called this detail out is proof that it worked.

Fair enough, Bob.  And an eloquent reminder or how much art accompanies the science of design.  Thank you.

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8 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Rudder head treatment: Same reason for most of the design features. Because that is exactly what I wanted. Simple as that. I do not care for the tapered rudder head. I find it weak and anemic looking. I like a strong looking rudder head, similar in many way to those rudder on traditional Dutch boats. But that's not where the idea came from. Look at Bill Garden's outboard rudders. They are strong looking statements. What was important to me is that the rudder look the way I wanted it to look

In our design firm there was the legend of the ugly rudder.

We would draw a GA that was just fine except an ugly rudder. The client would come in to review the drawing and say "Damn that is an ugly rudder"

"You're right Bob" we would say, "We shall fix it. You've got a good eye"

The client would leave, very pleased with himself. We wouldn't have to mess with the whole rest of the boat....

 

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4 minutes ago, Zonker said:

In our design firm there was the legend of the ugly rudder.

We would draw a GA that was just fine except an ugly rudder. The client would come in to review the drawing and say "Damn that is an ugly rudder"

"You're right Bob" we would say, "We shall fix it. You've got a good eye"

The client would leave, very pleased with himself. We wouldn't have to mess with the whole rest of the boat....

 

Funnily enough I sometimes do the same thing when doing data entry screen design... though more usually it's just a fuck-up. I do watch how my users actually interact with the programs though and rearrange/redesign form layouts to facilitate their work flow. A single keystroke or mouse movement saved is over 100,000 a year of wasted motion prevented.

Just spent a day re-doing a report that'll save ~2 hours/week for the end users. They're happy and I'm happy I could improve things.

FKT

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The rudder head is part of the overall aesthetic of these boats. We have been lucky to go onboard CC no 1 during its build, the thing that hit me is the massive detail of the boat and it’s components.

This is not an ordinary sailboat in any sense, it is beautiful but also brutal. The rudder head reflects that, as do the bulwarks, the bowsprit, the deck and even the below decks fitout.

It’s an aesthetic we don’t see much today in a world full of bean counters, but it was the norm a couple of centuries ago.

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16 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

The rudder head is part of the overall aesthetic of these boats. We have been lucky to go onboard CC no 1 during its build, the thing that hit me is the massive detail of the boat and it’s components.

This is not an ordinary sailboat in any sense, it is beautiful but also brutal. The rudder head reflects that, as do the bulwarks, the bowsprit, the deck and even the below decks fitout.

It’s an aesthetic we don’t see much today in a world full of bean counters, but it was the norm a couple of centuries ago.

Be good if the owner located one of those beauties in Kettering. Nice safe bug-out location.

FKT

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

In our design firm there was the legend of the ugly rudder.

We would draw a GA that was just fine except an ugly rudder. The client would come in to review the drawing and say "Damn that is an ugly rudder"

"You're right Bob" we would say, "We shall fix it. You've got a good eye"

The client would leave, very pleased with himself. We wouldn't have to mess with the whole rest of the boat....

 

We’ve always left some obvious but trivial violation out before any OSHA or DEQ inspection.  Because they can’t leave without writing up something.  Better a hammer with a splintered handle that can be just tossed in the trash, than having to dig up all the fence posts and re-set them in concrete with 2% more lime.  Or make the lawn boy wear full leathers and a motorcycle helmet on the lawn mower in 100° heat.  (Yes, those things happened.)

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12 hours ago, toddster said:

We’ve always left some obvious but trivial violation out before any OSHA or DEQ inspection.  Because they can’t leave without writing up something.  Better a hammer with a splintered handle that can be just tossed in the trash, than having to dig up all the fence posts and re-set them in concrete with 2% more lime.  Or make the lawn boy wear full leathers and a motorcycle helmet on the lawn mower in 100° heat.  (Yes, those things happened.)

We would do this for our scientific papers, leave in a few extreme statements or obvious problems for peer reviewers to catch, then remove or fix them easily. Of course this only works if the rest of the paper is sound.

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Frozen:

My client wants to keep his reasons for four boats private. He has always had a specific plan for the four boats. They will remain private boats.

I have a feeling that they will be so recognizable that anarchists the world over will be able to give us updates on their locations.

I got to visit build 2 at Bett's shop in Fall 2019, and he allowed us to wander all over it. Absolutely amazing build. While no way comparable, my choice of boat was partly influenced by that experience, I wanted something robustly built and Pacific Seacraft fits that bill (albeit not one of your designs, sorry!)

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On 8/4/2021 at 3:51 PM, Zonker said:

In our design firm there was the legend of the ugly rudder.

We would draw a GA that was just fine except an ugly rudder. The client would come in to review the drawing and say "Damn that is an ugly rudder"

"You're right Bob" we would say, "We shall fix it. You've got a good eye"

The client would leave, very pleased with himself. We wouldn't have to mess with the whole rest of the boat....

 

"Look - a squirrel!"

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On 8/6/2021 at 6:58 AM, Sail4beer said:

If it’s a Bill Creelock design, you’ve done well.

It is, commonly called a Pacific Seacraft Crealock in recognition of his design, and abbreviated PSC34, a double-ender much like some of Mr. Perry's designs.

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Great place to visit (in Washington, NC for those who don't know). Half their business now is refurbishment of older PSCs, a testament to how much owners like their boats. On a visit there after buying mine they kindly not only gave me a tour but showed me the things they typically have to update on a 30-year-old PSC. Luckily mine lived on Lake Superior for its first 22 years, so only one of those things is problematic on my boat.

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Interesting how much sprit there is, and that the normal working headsail tacks to the end of it and is masthead.

Fashion these days send to be a smaller every day headsail, with the option to set something big in the light.

Does she have a larger than normal working rig, or is the mast relatively short?

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There are always things that I like about boats and things I don't - I am (not confidently) hoping the owner feels the same way and decides on four more with all the knowledge from this iteration and I could take out a mortgage and get a shot at one for half price. This should be taken as a compliment in case unclear.

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Bloke:

The rig is a pretty normally proportioned cutter rig. The sprit is there to help balance the helm and add SA without having to increase "I" and reduce Rm.

Sprit is CF and the asym chute tack lines runs internally in the sprit

Not sure what you see but I don't see anything unusual about this rig. I have done countless rigs like this. Cruisers like this rig as it gives options a sloop rig doesn't give. No point trying to compare this design in any way to what is popular in European production boats today. This design is the  antithesis of the Euro production boat.

Griot sail plan.jpg

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3 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Bloke:

The rig is a pretty normally proportioned cutter rig. The sprit is there to help balance the helm and add SA without having to increase "I" and reduce Rm.

Sprit is CF and the asym chute tack lines runs internally in the sprit

Not sure what you see but I don't see anything unusual about this rig. I have done countless rigs like this. Cruisers like this rig as it gives options a sloop rig doesn't give. No point trying to compare this design in any way to what is popular in European production boats today. This design is the  antithesis of the Euro production boat.

Griot sail plan.jpg

The boot stripe onto the rudder looks just right.

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7 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Bloke:

The rig is a pretty normally proportioned cutter rig. The sprit is there to help balance the helm and add SA without having to increase "I" and reduce Rm.

Sprit is CF and the asym chute tack lines runs internally in the sprit

Not sure what you see but I don't see anything unusual about this rig. I have done countless rigs like this. Cruisers like this rig as it gives options a sloop rig doesn't give. No point trying to compare this design in any way to what is popular in European production boats today. This design is the  antithesis of the Euro production boat.

Griot sail plan.jpg

Yeah - it can likely survive more than one hard grounding without needing a new keel, for starters...

FKT

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19 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Bloke:

The rig is a pretty normally proportioned cutter rig. The sprit is there to help balance the helm and add SA without having to increase "I" and reduce Rm.

Sprit is CF and the asym chute tack lines runs internally in the sprit

Not sure what you see but I don't see anything unusual about this rig. I have done countless rigs like this. Cruisers like this rig as it gives options a sloop rig doesn't give. No point trying to compare this design in any way to what is popular in European production boats today. This design is the  antithesis of the Euro production boat.

Griot sail plan.jpg

Thank you. Headsail and sprit don't look quite as large in the drawings as they do in some of the photos.

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On 8/5/2021 at 11:48 AM, TheDragon said:

We would do this for our scientific papers, leave in a few extreme statements or obvious problems for peer reviewers to catch, then remove or fix them easily. Of course this only works if the rest of the paper is sound.

SOP in commercial or academic writing, too. Always leave the editor something to fix (and feel superior about), or they will find something to fix. Then act all grateful to them for pointing out the obvious flaw and giving you the chance to improve. "Thank you, editor. I never thought a footnote written in Latvian (Comic Sans) might prove distracting to readers of your fine journal. I shall emend it at once."

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1 hour ago, Diarmuid said:

SOP in commercial or academic writing, too. Always leave the editor something to fix (and feel superior about), or they will find something to fix. Then act all grateful to them for pointing out the obvious flaw and giving you the chance to improve. "Thank you, editor. I never thought a footnote written in Latvian (Comic Sans) might prove distracting to readers of your fine journal. I shall emend it at once."

dear editor, well aren't you sweet!  Thanks

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2 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

SOP in commercial or academic writing, too. Always leave the editor something to fix (and feel superior about), or they will find something to fix. Then act all grateful to them for pointing out the obvious flaw and giving you the chance to improve. "Thank you, editor. I never thought a footnote written in Latvian (Comic Sans) might prove distracting to readers of your fine journal. I shall emend it at once."

I used a similar technique with a boss I had once. He wasn't very good but usually smart enough to leave me alone to run things but every so often he would get the need to assert his authority.

I learned to recognize those occasions and would simply reply "Good idea Bill" whether it was or (more usually) not and then he'd leave me alone again - until the next time.

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jdw: I'm an audiophile by hobby and I play records and collect records. Got a Sly and the Family Stone LP today and a John Coltrane LP today. Thought there was something relevant about this tune. Glad you enjoyed it.

Skala new.jpg

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I imagine that somewhere someone is writing the next James Bond movie.  The 'Evil Villain' character will have four identical sailboats positioned in four stunningly beautiful locations around the globe.  A plot device will be that the Evil Genius can suddenly appear on his boat just about anywhere since no one will be believe there could be four such identical boats.   James Bond will figure out that there are four boats then go from one to the next to the next solving clues about their whereabouts and ultimately foiling the Evil Genius's plan for world domination.  

Along the way there will be chase scenes, explosions and gorgeous girls in bikinis on the boats.   

Magnificent boats, Mr Perry.  Congratulations to you and the owner.  

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