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My hospital is so fucked right now (RN)


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All the sick and dieing I've seen are unvaxxed.  I know there are sick vaxxed people out there, I just haven't seen them. Not many nurses have.

Taking care of a few critically sick COVID the other day boss comes to me and says "ED is boarding [LOTS] and more coming.  We gonna divide your [ x ] and you go to med-surge floor and take 6."   It was so bad high level hospital admins were transporting patients from ED to floors.  Elevator in the basement opened and the Big Big Boss and the Big Boss were rolling out a dead COVID.   Nurses that have been through the first wave with PTSD or just sick of the shit calling in.  ED should have had 10 nurses. Had 4 that day.  

So today would be better, right?  We have more and more COVID and I'm taking care of a very sick person in for other stuff that causes respiratory distress and who is vaccinated. COVID-  Condition worsens and needs a machine called a BIPAP.  This machine is basically the last step before intubation.   Doctor in the room and respiratory therapist shows up to say the hospital is out of BIPAPS.   That's right, the unvaxxed are fixing to kill the vaxxed who have the bad luck to need oxygen stuff right now. 

I thought Jan '20 to Dec '21 were the Dark Days. But even then we were never out of BIPAP.  Vents yes.   

There are going to be people dieing in the hallways of my hospital on regular non-rebreathers within 10 days, if not 7.  

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Respect, sympathy, support and hope to you. I got nothing substantial that works against stupidity, but you, sir, have whatever I can muster!

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  I can confirm that many healthcare workers are burnt out. Nurses from specialties who went to help in the wards during the first two waves are fatigued and just do not want to go through it again.  Doctors on staff who contributed despite not being bhospitalists are finding it harder to take the risks they did before.

I honor the work you guys do. I hope more can rally round and help.

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43 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

  I can confirm that many healthcare workers are burnt out. Nurses from specialties who went to help in the wards during the first two waves are fatigued and just do not want to go through it again.  Doctors on staff who contributed despite not being bhospitalists are finding it harder to take the risks they did before.

I honor the work you guys do. I hope more can rally round and help.

Sadly nurses are just done. Not worth it for $23 to $30 an hour. I think civic duty sustained us during the 1st wave but now..... our staffing is horrific. Nobody wants to risk license for someone who has made the choice to be unvaxxed and some OT.  Hospitals offering 300 to 1000 just to show up for a shift on top of OT  and nurses saying no thanks. I've already leveraged my year of covid critical care for a better job. 

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I painted a scene from my floor in Dec of '20 that shook me up.  Things are going to be worse than this in a week. Sorry if the painting is sideways.  I'm not tech savy enough to turn it right side up. I tried. 

1745161351_dec2020(1).jpg

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Pity you can't  take a few of the louder unvaxxed on a tour. I'm betting if you gave them a choice of being vaxxed after the tour most would take it.

The ones that turn it down, well they are too dumb to live,  they shouldn't even get the choice to go into hospital and place Healthcare workers under more pressure and strain not forgetting the potential for exposure because of ignorance.

In fact perhaps they need to be given a piece of paper when they refuse to vaccinate acknowledging they have literally signed their lives away. 

Good luck and my thoughts and respect to all of those on the Frontline, its a tragedy that its due to gross stupidity.

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As the husband of a RN forced out (spinal fusion) of the profession, I have particular empathy for our medical front line staff. And that was before Covid. 

Respect.

If Clove's post doesn't make one turn introspective and wonder how you could do more, you're simply not human. 

 

 

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No one reasonable would blame front line health care workers if they walked away.

Thankfully you don't.

You are national heroes and should be officially recognized as such. 

Triage should soon sort the vaccinated from the non vaccinated.

 

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11 hours ago, Clove Hitch said:

All the sick and dieing I've seen are unvaxxed.  I know there are sick vaxxed people out there, I just haven't seen them. Not many nurses have.

Taking care of a few critically sick COVID the other day boss comes to me and says "ED is boarding [LOTS] and more coming.  We gonna divide your [ x ] and you go to med-surge floor and take 6."   It was so bad high level hospital admins were transporting patients from ED to floors.  Elevator in the basement opened and the Big Big Boss and the Big Boss were rolling out a dead COVID.   Nurses that have been through the first wave with PTSD or just sick of the shit calling in.  ED should have had 10 nurses. Had 4 that day.  

So today would be better, right?  We have more and more COVID and I'm taking care of a very sick person in for other stuff that causes respiratory distress and who is vaccinated. COVID-  Condition worsens and needs a machine called a BIPAP.  This machine is basically the last step before intubation.   Doctor in the room and respiratory therapist shows up to say the hospital is out of BIPAPS.   That's right, the unvaxxed are fixing to kill the vaxxed who have the bad luck to need oxygen stuff right now. 

I thought Jan '20 to Dec '21 were the Dark Days. But even then we were never out of BIPAP.  Vents yes.   

There are going to be people dieing in the hallways of my hospital on regular non-rebreathers within 10 days, if not 7.  

You have my full sympathy and support. It's a war.

After years of study and work, practice, difficult training, you get thrown into a meat grinder! But a soldier also knows that nothing lasts forever.... keep your head down and get through it! You're one of the heroes.

- DSK

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It's bad in the Houston area, what the selfish self entitled pricks don't realize is once the system is overloaded anyone needing emergency care is fucked. Yesterday was announced that the EMS crews were waiting up to several hours to discharge at the ERs.  And the county just north (voted for Trump 71%) is now asking for millions in federal funds for staffing because the hospitals are full and the staff are overwhelmed.

A year and half into this, 6 months after vaccines became widely available and it's FUBAR.  Clove Hitch you have my deepest sympathies and wishing you all the best to get thru this.

 

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13 hours ago, Zonker said:

Damn. Take care and be safe. Thanks for all that you do, and that you have done already.

This.

And do try to keep your professional distance. Try to not get consumed by cases that should have been unnecessary.

 

All the best, take care!

 

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7 hours ago, d'ranger said:

It's bad in the Houston area, what the selfish self entitled pricks don't realize is once the system is overloaded anyone needing emergency care is fucked. Yesterday was announced that the EMS crews were waiting up to several hours to discharge at the ERs.  And the county just north (voted for Trump 71%) is now asking for millions in federal funds for staffing because the hospitals are full and the staff are overwhelmed.

A year and half into this, 6 months after vaccines became widely available and it's FUBAR.  Clove Hitch you have my deepest sympathies and wishing you all the best to get thru this.

 

There needs to be a start on triage. Un-vaccinated get dropped down the priority list when resources get scarce, no tech intervention.

It was their right to refuse vaccination, and it's their right to take the consequences when resources are insufficient.

Probably illegal to do that though and given the utter stupidity of some of your State leadership it wouldn't surprise me if they actually reversed that and insisted that the un-vaccinated got priority, seeing as they need it more right now.

At which point - walk away.

FKT

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22 hours ago, Clove Hitch said:

All the sick and dieing I've seen are unvaxxed.  I know there are sick vaxxed people out there, I just haven't seen them. Not many nurses have.

Taking care of a few critically sick COVID the other day boss comes to me and says "ED is boarding [LOTS] and more coming.  We gonna divide your [ x ] and you go to med-surge floor and take 6."   It was so bad high level hospital admins were transporting patients from ED to floors.  Elevator in the basement opened and the Big Big Boss and the Big Boss were rolling out a dead COVID.   Nurses that have been through the first wave with PTSD or just sick of the shit calling in.  ED should have had 10 nurses. Had 4 that day.  

So today would be better, right?  We have more and more COVID and I'm taking care of a very sick person in for other stuff that causes respiratory distress and who is vaccinated. COVID-  Condition worsens and needs a machine called a BIPAP.  This machine is basically the last step before intubation.   Doctor in the room and respiratory therapist shows up to say the hospital is out of BIPAPS.   That's right, the unvaxxed are fixing to kill the vaxxed who have the bad luck to need oxygen stuff right now. 

I thought Jan '20 to Dec '21 were the Dark Days. But even then we were never out of BIPAP.  Vents yes.   

There are going to be people dieing in the hallways of my hospital on regular non-rebreathers within 10 days, if not 7.  

But it's just the sniffles.

 

Sorry you're having to deal with this. Please remember that this is rated as a pandemic for a reason. The vaccination being available AT ALL is a miracle. The idiots that make it harder are still people, but you're allowed to speak firmly and directly to them and their family about vaccination.

Good luck.

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Trained medical staff are a finite commodity and they're human. Imagine going to work where a large percentage of your customers evident lack of regard for your health let alone theirs can kill you. Every. Single. Day. 

The scariest thing is not only are they finite, the level of training needed for front line nurses is not easy and nor is it trivial, they are highly skilled workers.

How will the battle against the pandemic fair when the experienced nurses burn out and are replaced with newbies? I've seen newly qualified nurses struggle on the floor even in quiet periods, let alone a busy Friday night. Add to that a full blown pandemic??

Maybe we'll end up with a bunch of semi-skilled workers that have completed a shortened training course specifically for Covid that doesn't have any of an RN's other credentials just so there are enough eyes on all the monitors and alarms. The compassion and empathy that typify nurses now will become 'not my job' from a bunch of paid labour hire min wage earners crammed through a basic course on how/when to push the panic button.

 

Or we could respect our front line health professionals and wear a mask.  

 

 

  

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

There needs to be a start on triage. Un-vaccinated get dropped down the priority list when resources get scarce, no tech intervention.

It was their right to refuse vaccination, and it's their right to take the consequences when resources are insufficient.

Probably illegal to do that though and given the utter stupidity of some of your State leadership it wouldn't surprise me if they actually reversed that and insisted that the un-vaccinated got priority, seeing as they need it more right now.

At which point - walk away.

FKT

You know that is not going to happen right?   Its not just the legality of the thing, it is a slippery path to go down. Might as well give up the job the day one changes course from the first principle.

 

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57 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

There needs to be a start on triage. Un-vaccinated get dropped down the priority list when resources get scarce, no tech intervention.

It was their right to refuse vaccination, and it's their right to take the consequences when resources are insufficient.

Probably illegal to do that though and given the utter stupidity of some of your State leadership it wouldn't surprise me if they actually reversed that and insisted that the un-vaccinated got priority, seeing as they need it more right now.

At which point - walk away.

FKT

It wouldn't be popular but I think we could team up and make a difference saving those lives who deserved it. I have spent months doing disaster relief work and it is exhausting 7 days a week but it's nothing like these frontline medical people are having to endure. Again. When it was so fuking predictable and avoidable.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

You know that is not going to happen right?   Its not just the legality of the thing, it is a slippery path to go down. Might as well give up the job the day one changes course from the first principle.

 

So. When the situation becomes like Italy and Spain last year, you don't think they'll triage ventilators and other scarce equipment to those who have the best fighting chance? The vaccinated.

The first principle rapidly becomes "best outcome"

There was some Texas Karen moaning about not being able to access a bed with some type of ventilator anywhere in the State for her unvacinated husband.

People may soon realise that even their gold plated healthcare insurance may not give them the priority they assumed.

Hopefully this will motivate them to get vaccinated.

 

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

You know that is not going to happen right?   Its not just the legality of the thing, it is a slippery path to go down. Might as well give up the job the day one changes course from the first principle.

 

It *always* happens when resources get scarce enough. The very term came out of war so as to allocate resources most efficiently.

Trust me, it will happen if it needs to happen. Maybe not at the level you see, but it's inevitable.

I design & build automated medical screening software. The detection thresholds are set where they are so as to minimise false positives but come as close as possible to zero false negatives. Yet - they still happen. And if you drop the significance threshold to capture those 1 in 250,000 or rarer events, you overwhelm the lab resources with false positives.

So - you don't and hope the ones missed in automated scanning get picked up clinically before they get too ill or die.

Nobody likes it, if there are ways to avoid it at an acceptable use of resources, good, you do that. But if not - shrug.

FKT

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BTW the unvaccinated, except for politicians and pundits like Carlson tend not to have the "gold plated insurance."  They are highly correlated with the ones trying to get Obamacare cancelled. They are the ones "never sick" who didn't want to have health insurance.   

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20 hours ago, Melibob said:

So. When the situation becomes like Italy and Spain last year, you don't think they'll triage ventilators and other scarce equipment to those who have the best fighting chance? The vaccinated.

The first principle rapidly becomes "best outcome"

There was some Texas Karen moaning about not being able to access a bed with some type of ventilator anywhere in the State for her unvacinated husband.

People may soon realise that even their gold plated healthcare insurance may not give them the priority they assumed.

Hopefully this will motivate them to get vaccinated.

 

It won’t.

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20 hours ago, Melibob said:

So. When the situation becomes like Italy and Spain last year, you don't think they'll triage ventilators and other scarce equipment to those who have the best fighting chance? The vaccinated.

 

 

That is happening and has already happened but would never be based on vaccination status.   

At any rate, the vaxxed don't need the BIPAPS and the vents.  

What's crazy about this wave is you can really see how the antivaxxers are a systemic harm and affect people in for unrelated things. Such a drain on resources and they look like a guppy on a pool table before they get intubated. 

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On 8/10/2021 at 10:31 PM, EYESAILOR said:

  I can confirm that many healthcare workers are burnt out. Nurses from specialties who went to help in the wards during the first two waves are fatigued and just do not want to go through it again.  Doctors on staff who contributed despite not being bhospitalists are finding it harder to take the risks they did before.

I honor the work you guys do. I hope more can rally round and help.

Health care workers set a poor example for fellow citizens

 

i generally disregard their observations 

“Among the nation's 50 largest hospitals, the percentage of unvaccinated health care workers appears to be even larger, about 1 in 3. “
 

 

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9 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Health care workers set a poor example for fellow citizens

 

i generally disregard their observations 

“Among the nation's 50 largest hospitals, the percentage of unvaccinated health care workers appears to be even larger, about 1 in 3. “
 

 

I question your source. Most hospitals mandate vaccination for all employees and adjunct staff. Every hos[ital in CT has mandated the vaccine. I cannot think of a doctor on staff who was not already vaccinated anyway. It was a relief for most of us because we cannot work from home.

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6 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I question your source. Most hospitals mandate vaccination for all employees and adjunct staff. Every hos[ital in CT has mandated the vaccine. I cannot think of a doctor on staff who was not already vaccinated anyway. It was a relief for most of us because we cannot work from home.

We're not all in CT.  JHU has given workers till Sept. to get a shot. 

This was the source I think  https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertzafft/2021/08/05/the-paradox-of-unvaccinated-healthcare-workers/

Nursing homes are probably worse.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

I question your source. Most hospitals mandate vaccination for all employees and adjunct staff. Every hos[ital in CT has mandated the vaccine. I cannot think of a doctor on staff who was not already vaccinated anyway. It was a relief for most of us because we cannot work from home.

Aged care and child care providers and ancillary hospital staff  are probably the worst across the developed world. Low income workers with no financial support, afraid to lose shifts if they need time off work after vaccination, working across multiple sites etc. 

 

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3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

We're not all in CT.  JHU has given workers till Sept. to get a shot. 

This was the source I think  https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertzafft/2021/08/05/the-paradox-of-unvaccinated-healthcare-workers/

Nursing homes are probably worse.

 

Unbelievable.

Really?  The source for this story is .....and I quote....."Monthly survey data gathered through Facebook".

No figures, no methodology but apparently if you go to facebook and read what nurses are posting, they are not getting vaccinated.

Oh and by the way, a similar monthly survey of date gathered through facebook proves that Trump won the last election by an overwhelming majority and that Elvis Presley is in a nursing home in Tampa.

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Genuinely confused why any hospital is so ill prepared 18 months in.

Cases are about 1/2 of last winter, and deaths are ~20%

 

How is a place surprised/caught off guard/not prepared?

This sounds like really bad hospital management.
(unless you're personally super stressed and just exaggerating)
 

1042162067_ScreenShot2021-08-14at7_12_14AM.thumb.png.d07fa3302dde3169af8bb3bf73f758a1.png457374828_ScreenShot2021-08-14at7_12_07AM.thumb.png.530549846839c30dc7ce5af6a49b96f8.png

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55 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

 

Unbelievable.

Really?  The source for this story is .....and I quote....."Monthly survey data gathered through Facebook".

No figures, no methodology but apparently if you go to facebook and read what nurses are posting, they are not getting vaccinated.

Oh and by the way, a similar monthly survey of date gathered through facebook proves that Trump won the last election by an overwhelming majority and that Elvis Presley is in a nursing home in Tampa.

Funny.

But "nurses" are generally lumped in with "healthcare workers" a very disparate group.

Here, nursing is a 3 year  Bachelor of Nursing  degree and a Nurse is one with such a qualification. 

A nursing assistant or similar is a certificate III in Health services and take abt 40 weeks to get.

Maybe those posting on FB are misrepresenting their qualifications. Dunno. The link has a paywall.

I'd be pretty surprised if qualified nurses we not getting the jab.

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2 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Genuinely confused why any hospital is so ill prepared 18 months in.

Cases are about 1/2 of last winter, and deaths are ~20%

 

How is a place surprised/caught off guard/not prepared?

This sounds like really bad hospital management.
(unless you're personally super stressed and just exaggerating)
 

1042162067_ScreenShot2021-08-14at7_12_14AM.thumb.png.d07fa3302dde3169af8bb3bf73f758a1.png457374828_ScreenShot2021-08-14at7_12_07AM.thumb.png.530549846839c30dc7ce5af6a49b96f8.png

1) it's not winter yet

2) maybe hospital staff are burned out and sick and tired of putting their own health on the line for Covidiots.

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On the Nurses vaccinated topic. From WaPo. July 21.

About 83 percent of nurses were vaccinated as of early May, according to an ANA survey — a figure Grant said was heartening, citing data that about two-thirds of nurses in March 2020 said they had no immediate desire to get vaccinated or else were opposed.

“Nurses are people, too,” he said, conceding that some were still questioning the vaccines’ effectiveness.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/26/mandatory-vaccinations-urged-health-workers/

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5 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

We're not all in CT.  JHU has given workers till Sept. to get a shot. 

This was the source I think  https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertzafft/2021/08/05/the-paradox-of-unvaccinated-healthcare-workers/

Nursing homes are probably worse.

Google Robert Zafft.

He's a bit sus.

Monthly survey data gathered through Facebook suggests that vaccine hesitancy ranges from 9% among pharmacists to 20%-23% among nursing aides and emergency medical technicians. About 1 out of 8 registered nurses and doctors hesitate to get a COVID vaccine.

These healthcare workers don’t want to take the vaccine, and fight efforts to make them do so. What should we make of their position?

Do They Know Something We Don’t?

The AMA Code of Medical Ethics states that: “Informed consent to medical treatment is fundamental in both ethics and law. Patients have the right to receive information and ask questions about recommended treatments so that they can make well-considered decisions about care.”

1 in 8 doctors and nurses hesitating to get vaccinated raises the question whether they know something the rest of us don’t. And if so, can we say with confidence that current risk disclosures create informed consent?

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Anyone who thinks data of this type gathered from Facebook is not just suspect but stupid. The most likely to use Facebook are the stupid against vaccines.

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On 8/10/2021 at 10:53 PM, Clove Hitch said:

Sadly nurses are just done. Not worth it for $23 to $30 an hour. I think civic duty sustained us during the 1st wave but now..... our staffing is horrific. Nobody wants to risk license for someone who has made the choice to be unvaxxed and some OT.  Hospitals offering 300 to 1000 just to show up for a shift on top of OT  and nurses saying no thanks. I've already leveraged my year of covid critical care for a better job. 

I completely get not wanting to risk your life for someone who doesn't value life. 

Maybe it's time the insurance companies stop covering "freedom lovers" who choose not to be vaxxed and hospitals turn away them away.  I realize your humanity would probably prevent you from turning away the sick and dying, but something has to be done to stop the insanity.

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2 hours ago, Jules said:

I completely get not wanting to risk your life for someone who doesn't value life. 

Maybe it's time the insurance companies stop covering "freedom lovers" who choose not to be vaxxed and hospitals turn away them away.  I realize your humanity would probably prevent you from turning away the sick and dying, but something has to be done to stop the insanity.

Except that most COVID treatment is paid for by us taxpayers, and even if by insurance companies, ultimately the rest of us pay in higher premiums. Money does not grow on trees.

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1 hour ago, TheDragon said:

Except that most COVID treatment is paid for by us taxpayers, and even if by insurance companies, ultimately the rest of us pay in higher premiums. Money does not grow on trees.

You don't see the hypocrisy in being ok shutting down the world, destroying millions of small businesses and printing trillions of dollars.

and then complaining about the cost of treating the patients?

 

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1 hour ago, BlatantEcho said:

You don't see the hypocrisy in being ok shutting down the world, destroying millions of small businesses and printing trillions of dollars.

and then complaining about the cost of treating the patients?

 

The patients in hospital now in the US are largely >90% unvaccinated. They get free care. Even after they die their families mostly don't get vaccinated, sometimes despite deathbed pleas. 46% of the country pays no net federal taxes. I sure do. Yeah, i don't like helping people willing to prolong the pandemic because of whatever "choice" logic they muddled into. Or their families either. 

We paid for vaccines including Moderna development to stop distancing closures, illnesses, deaths. We offer them free.

I see hypocrisy in people complaining about closures, business failures, spending and then doing their best to prolong them.

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On 8/10/2021 at 10:03 PM, Clove Hitch said:

All the sick and dieing I've seen are unvaxxed.  I know there are sick vaxxed people out there, I just haven't seen them. Not many nurses have.

Taking care of a few critically sick COVID the other day boss comes to me and says "ED is boarding [LOTS] and more coming.  We gonna divide your [ x ] and you go to med-surge floor and take 6."   It was so bad high level hospital admins were transporting patients from ED to floors.  Elevator in the basement opened and the Big Big Boss and the Big Boss were rolling out a dead COVID.   Nurses that have been through the first wave with PTSD or just sick of the shit calling in.  ED should have had 10 nurses. Had 4 that day.  

So today would be better, right?  We have more and more COVID and I'm taking care of a very sick person in for other stuff that causes respiratory distress and who is vaccinated. COVID-  Condition worsens and needs a machine called a BIPAP.  This machine is basically the last step before intubation.   Doctor in the room and respiratory therapist shows up to say the hospital is out of BIPAPS.   That's right, the unvaxxed are fixing to kill the vaxxed who have the bad luck to need oxygen stuff right now. 

I thought Jan '20 to Dec '21 were the Dark Days. But even then we were never out of BIPAP.  Vents yes.   

There are going to be people dieing in the hallways of my hospital on regular non-rebreathers within 10 days, if not 7.  

Stay tough 

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4 hours ago, NeedAClew said:
5 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

You don't see the hypocrisy in being ok shutting down the world. ...

.....   ... I see hypocrisy in people complaining about closures, business failures, spending and then doing their best to prolong them.

^ this ^

BIG TIME

The RWNJs are loaded with hypocrisy in the way they screech loudly about FREEDOM and then refuse to take responsibility, or to hold their own leaders accountable.... the way they demand RIGHTS but unabashedly give their loyalty and support to a wanna-be dictator.

And that was before the pandemic!

- DSK

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7 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

You don't see the hypocrisy in being ok shutting down the world, destroying millions of small businesses and printing trillions of dollars.

and then complaining about the cost of treating the patients?

 

Blatant,

I agree with you that the cost of treating patients is a small (but not insignificant) part of the cost of the Pandemic.  The enormous amount of debt being created in the world in the past year and a half is not going to be paid off in our lifetimes. The 2020-2022 pandemic will still be being paid off by our children in 30 years time from now.

The only way to get back to anything like normal is widespread adoption of the vaccine.  The world will not re-open of its own accord.

I take this thread to be more about the human cost in the healthcare industry. In the US, the sad, unavoidable fact is that healthcare workers are demoralized and tired. Fifteen months ago, the front line hospital workers were lauded as heroes.  How long ago that now seems. I dont presume to have an explanation. I merely observe that everywhere healthcare has suddenly found itself short of staff. Doctors are leaving practices , nurses are looking for new careers , medical assistants are taking leaves of absences.  Im hearing about this from all my colleagues and reading about it in practice journals and hospital memos.  There is a people crisis in the US healthcare industry.

It might partially be because we never got to work from home. We have been wearing masks 9-10 hours a day, 6 days a week for 18 months. It has been grinding.

But I think there are bigger forces at work which are demoralizing healthcare workers. 

It gets increasingly hard to care. Healthcare is really guts grinding hard work.....and care is an important motivator. Its harder and harder to care for people who dont give a fuck about anyone else.  When there is a section of American society that is basically saying "I'm okay. I dont give a damn about anyone else", that critical energy source that keeps a healthcare worker motivated to care for the sick and injured is getting battered.

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Sorry. Tough day. I was meant to have the day off to spend with my husband. He was looking forward to a nice sail up the river.

FWIW, I will never stop caring. Just having a long day at office when I thought I would be gardening and sailing.  Ignore my rant.

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9 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

You don't see the hypocrisy in being ok shutting down the world, destroying millions of small businesses and printing trillions of dollars.

and then complaining about the cost of treating the patients?

 

In your haste to shoot the messenger, you're ignoring the fact that self preservation will shut down the world and destroy the millions of small businesses anyway. 

You can't see the forest for the trees. From outside the US looks like a complete clusterfuck collapsing under hate and vitriol and a confusing mix of freedom warriors that have no truck for anyone else's rights, doing their best to spread a pandemic. 

My eldest daughter and their friends have stopped even mentioning the US for a big planned overseas junket. I mentioned it yesterday and they all shuddered and laughed. "Yeah, that's never gonna happen. Nobody is that stupid." I have to remember they have grown up and seen with their own eyes a very different America to previous generations. On the business side a popular global industry bash is being advertised in Vegas again. Not one of the few 100 souls that go every year is going. Instead a Vietnam trade show being aggressively marketed as a Covid safe alternate is picking up bodies everywhere because it is less risk.

Normal people are deserting the US in droves, not because of the pandemic but because of the US' response to it. That's a result of the individuals, and your anti vax minority twisting this into a political debate are the root cause. 

Don't blame the government who job it is to try and protect you for a health crisis that your anti vaxxer and anti maskers are wholly responsible for prolonging.   

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Sorry. Tough day. I was meant to have the day off to spend with my husband. He was looking forward to a nice sail up the river.

FWIW, I will never stop caring. Just having a long day at office when I thought I would be gardening and sailing.  Ignore my rant.

If it were not hot as blazes I'd suggest a nice cup of hot chocolate. Not sure what the summertime equivalent... a mint julep?

- DSK

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24 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

My eldest daughter and their friends have stopped even mentioning the US for a big planned overseas junket. I mentioned it yesterday and they all shuddered and laughed. "Yeah, that's never gonna happen. Nobody is that stupid." I have to remember they have grown up and seen with their own eyes a very different America to previous generations.

 

Almost 20 years since 9/11. This time 20 years ago I was just about to depart from my employment in Tucson to take up a position in R&D again back here in Oz.

In that time I've watched the USA trash its own Constitution at an accelerating rate and turn vengeful and STUPID. This entire covid response has been just more of the same. And it's still going on.

20 years ago I'd never have believed what's happened.

FKT

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39 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Sorry. Tough day. I was meant to have the day off to spend with my husband. He was looking forward to a nice sail up the river.

FWIW, I will never stop caring. Just having a long day at office when I thought I would be gardening and sailing.  Ignore my rant.

Thats not a rant. That comes across as common sense and logic frustrated and despairing for easily achievable minor change that has huge benefits and near zero negatives.

That's called intelligence. 

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

Thats not a rant. That comes across as common sense and logic frustrated and despairing for easily achievable minor change that has huge benefits and near zero negatives.

That's called intelligence. 

Yeah, even if Shaggy's wrong and it is a rant, I applaud the rant, not ignore it.  I think it's a legit rant/POV.  Hang in there EYESAILOR, without people like you, the US would be even more fucked.

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

In your haste to shoot the messenger, you're ignoring the fact that self preservation will shut down the world and destroy the millions of small businesses anyway. 

You can't see the forest for the trees. From outside the US looks like a complete clusterfuck collapsing under hate and vitriol and a confusing mix of freedom warriors that have no truck for anyone else's rights, doing their best to spread a pandemic. 

My eldest daughter and their friends have stopped even mentioning the US for a big planned overseas junket. I mentioned it yesterday and they all shuddered and laughed. "Yeah, that's never gonna happen. Nobody is that stupid." I have to remember they have grown up and seen with their own eyes a very different America to previous generations. On the business side a popular global industry bash is being advertised in Vegas again. Not one of the few 100 souls that go every year is going. Instead a Vietnam trade show being aggressively marketed as a Covid safe alternate is picking up bodies everywhere because it is less risk.

Normal people are deserting the US in droves, not because of the pandemic but because of the US' response to it. That's a result of the individuals, and your anti vax minority twisting this into a political debate are the root cause. 

Don't blame the government who job it is to try and protect you for a health crisis that your anti vaxxer and anti maskers are wholly responsible for prolonging.   

 

 

 

Well actually, I think factually there is a lot to blame the previous administration for...

AND a bunch of current state governments, imagine trying to make it illegal to follow best public health practices...

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On 8/10/2021 at 10:03 PM, Clove Hitch said:

All the sick and dieing I've seen are unvaxxed.  I know there are sick vaxxed people out there, I just haven't seen them. Not many nurses have.

Taking care of a few critically sick COVID the other day boss comes to me and says "ED is boarding [LOTS] and more coming.  We gonna divide your [ x ] and you go to med-surge floor and take 6."   It was so bad high level hospital admins were transporting patients from ED to floors.  Elevator in the basement opened and the Big Big Boss and the Big Boss were rolling out a dead COVID.   Nurses that have been through the first wave with PTSD or just sick of the shit calling in.  ED should have had 10 nurses. Had 4 that day.  

So today would be better, right?  We have more and more COVID and I'm taking care of a very sick person in for other stuff that causes respiratory distress and who is vaccinated. COVID-  Condition worsens and needs a machine called a BIPAP.  This machine is basically the last step before intubation.   Doctor in the room and respiratory therapist shows up to say the hospital is out of BIPAPS.   That's right, the unvaxxed are fixing to kill the vaxxed who have the bad luck to need oxygen stuff right now. 

I thought Jan '20 to Dec '21 were the Dark Days. But even then we were never out of BIPAP.  Vents yes.   

There are going to be people dieing in the hallways of my hospital on regular non-rebreathers within 10 days, if not 7.  

My thoughts are with you. Stay safe 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Almost 20 years since 9/11. This time 20 years ago I was just about to depart from my employment in Tucson to take up a position in R&D again back here in Oz.

In that time I've watched the USA trash its own Constitution at an accelerating rate and turn vengeful and STUPID. This entire covid response has been just more of the same. And it's still going on.

20 years ago I'd never have believed what's happened.

FKT

An outside the border reference is important, thanks.  Florida is taking stupid to the next level and it is showing in our covid numbers.

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40 minutes ago, KC375 said:

Well actually, I think factually there is a lot to blame the previous administration for...

AND a bunch of current state governments, imagine trying to make it illegal to follow best public health practices...

I absolutely agree the previous admin and a lot of GoP state bodies are to blame for exacerbating prevention measures and helping spread the virus. 

But now its up to the community to stop it. Anti vaxxers and anti maskers are 100% responsible for preventing this from happening and prolonging the hurt.

 

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3 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

In your haste to shoot the messenger, you're ignoring the fact that self preservation will shut down the world and destroy the millions of small businesses anyway. 

You can't see the forest for the trees. From outside the US looks like a complete clusterfuck collapsing under hate and vitriol and a confusing mix of freedom warriors that have no truck for anyone else's rights, doing their best to spread a pandemic. 

My eldest daughter and their friends have stopped even mentioning the US for a big planned overseas junket. I mentioned it yesterday and they all shuddered and laughed. "Yeah, that's never gonna happen. Nobody is that stupid." I have to remember they have grown up and seen with their own eyes a very different America to previous generations. On the business side a popular global industry bash is being advertised in Vegas again. Not one of the few 100 souls that go every year is going. Instead a Vietnam trade show being aggressively marketed as a Covid safe alternate is picking up bodies everywhere because it is less risk.

Normal people are deserting the US in droves, not because of the pandemic but because of the US' response to it. That's a result of the individuals, and your anti vax minority twisting this into a political debate are the root cause. 

Don't blame the government who job it is to try and protect you for a health crisis that your anti vaxxer and anti maskers are wholly responsible for prolonging.   

 

 

 

 

FYI, I don't live in the US.

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6 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Blatant,

I agree with you that the cost of treating patients is a small (but not insignificant) part of the cost of the Pandemic.  The enormous amount of debt being created in the world in the past year and a half is not going to be paid off in our lifetimes. The 2020-2022 pandemic will still be being paid off by our children in 30 years time from now.

The only way to get back to anything like normal is widespread adoption of the vaccine.  The world will not re-open of its own accord.

I take this thread to be more about the human cost in the healthcare industry. In the US, the sad, unavoidable fact is that healthcare workers are demoralized and tired. Fifteen months ago, the front line hospital workers were lauded as heroes.  How long ago that now seems. I dont presume to have an explanation. I merely observe that everywhere healthcare has suddenly found itself short of staff. Doctors are leaving practices , nurses are looking for new careers , medical assistants are taking leaves of absences.  Im hearing about this from all my colleagues and reading about it in practice journals and hospital memos.  There is a people crisis in the US healthcare industry.

It might partially be because we never got to work from home. We have been wearing masks 9-10 hours a day, 6 days a week for 18 months. It has been grinding.

But I think there are bigger forces at work which are demoralizing healthcare workers. 

It gets increasingly hard to care. Healthcare is really guts grinding hard work.....and care is an important motivator. Its harder and harder to care for people who dont give a fuck about anyone else.  When there is a section of American society that is basically saying "I'm okay. I dont give a damn about anyone else", that critical energy source that keeps a healthcare worker motivated to care for the sick and injured is getting battered.

I appreciate the lengthy reply. You do seem measured and thoughtful in your replies.

 

I attribute your fatigue to three things:

1) This is the first time in history, we sacrificed our youngest, to protect our oldest.
(Not true if you consider governments sending young soldiers to die in endless wars, but that's a different debate)

Not just with the debt we saddle them with for the future, but, forcing them to skip school, graduations, now almost 2 years of their lives.
That is old people, saying they are more important than the next generation.  
And I think that is immoral and indefensible.

Of course that is fatiguing to navigate - it's absolutely backwards to how humans are wired.
Anyone facing that for 2 years, is going to have that grind them down, even if they don't understand why yet.
 


2) The health community now, is clearly political, and no longer science driven.
This is something everyone knows, but no one talks about.

My friends who are 'front line doctors' - do the best they can, but they are militant about what is truth and what isn't.
Even as the data piles up to counter their assertions - they do not adjust their thinking.

(I assume this is fatigue and stress, but it's still unbecoming)

As public trust erodes in a politicized public health debate - why do doctors keep expecting people to listen to them?
 

 

3) Experts make easy choices for themselves, not realizing the cost to others.

When you're a well paid medical professional, life is full of choices.
When you are a poor worker, you don't have those opportunity.

The medical community missed that perspective.
I was riding in a taxi in Uganda a few months ago.  Right as 42 days of lockdown started.

You know what they discussed? The average number of people who live in a single room with a dirt floor.
No one cares about coronavirus in that situation.  

But, the medical community can't help themselves by demanding more lockdowns, demanding this, or that.
Giving out addicts and telling everyone how to live.

It's as if they are completely oblivious that clean water and sanitation would improve lives so much more.

 

But we fixate on a virus that hurts the old - by sacrificing our young.
We wonder why there is eroding trust in medicine, public health experts, and no civil discussion about any of it online.  

Of course you're tired.  That sounds exhausting.
From the other side, as a normal person, we're exhausted by doctors, health experts and the ivory tower medical community.
 

Public health is more than just compliance, and it's more than just a singular, endless emergency focused on a virus that isn't much risk to the next generation.

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7 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Sorry. Tough day. I was meant to have the day off to spend with my husband. He was looking forward to a nice sail up the river.

FWIW, I will never stop caring. Just having a long day at office when I thought I would be gardening and sailing.  Ignore my rant.

Ignore my rant.

nope ,

you are correct , anti vaxers have absolutely no rights to public health , none whatso ever ,

 

fok ém , least when they die they'll stop spreading .

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7 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

 This is the first time in history, we sacrificed our youngest, to protect our oldest.

Not just with the debt we saddle them with for the future, but, forcing them to skip school, graduations, now almost 2 years of their lives.
That is old people, saying they are more important than the next generation.  
And I think that is immoral and indefensible.

 

 

Breaking down your reply into the three components.  I dont want to get into an argument and on some of this we can agree to disagree, but if you are seeking to explain healthcare fatigue, I can give you a perspective.

I do not feel a sense of the old asking for sacrifice from the young.   My kids will remember this as an episode in their lives. My son is at college and it struck in his freshman year. Like everyone in his generation, he has adapted (much better than older people), as learning went online.  Young people held together with their online communities (something they didnt have in 1957 and 1918) and created safe ways of getting together. In our case he enjoyed locking down with family, then sharing a house with a small group of friends and finally going back to college with a large community of vaccinated (mandated) youth.  The youth that I know are positive and determined to do their bit to defeat the disease for their own benefit

The best that we all can offer our younger generation is a world free from the pandemic so that they can look forward to longevity and a world where social contact does not involve disease.

Not a cause of fatigue

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7 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

(2) The health community now, is clearly political, and no longer science driven.
This is something everyone knows, but no one talks about.

My friends who are 'front line doctors' - do the best they can, but they are militant about what is truth and what isn't.
Even as the data piles up to counter their assertions - they do not adjust their thinking.

(I assume this is fatigue and stress, but it's still unbecoming)

As public trust erodes in a politicized public health debate - why do doctors keep expecting people to listen to them?
 

 

 

Yes this is a cause of fatigue.

Nobody accused the medical community of being political  when doctors and nurses , both Republican and Democrat, worked shoulder to shoulder saving lives. I was not on the front line but my sister was. Neither of us can remember a single example of a healthcare worker taking a political stance......it was purely and simple a medical challenge.

This recent politicization and distrust of the medical community is deeply hurtful to medical professionals.  There are a broad range of political affiliations within the medical community. Yes, of course there are fringe participants on the far left and far right like any sample of any population but what is amazing is that both right wing and left wing medical professionals see this as a virus and disease and generally agree on the best practices and the best way forward.

It is simply untrue to say we have not adjusted our thinking. We knew very little about this disease when it arrived in Feb/March 2020. We have discovered new ways of treating patients. We have gone down some blind alleys, made mistakes and quickly revised protocols and treatments and gotten better and better at treatment. The survival rate, adjusted for age , is much better now than it was 17 months ago.  But has anyone said thank you?   Nope , instead there is lots of finger pointing, picking up on every change of course as if it is a bad thing to change advice or protocols.  The commentators seem to want to discourage change and adaption because they like to go back 6 months and say "oh look how wrong your were".    Sorry, that is the way we make scientific and medical progress.

Public trust is not where it should be........but not because of the doctors.......but because they are undermined by hoodoo science and snake oil circulated on social media.  My hope and belief is that public trust is gradually being rebuilt.

The simple medical advice that physicians from the left and right political leanings is simply that prevention is much better than the cure and the vaccines are effective. 

 

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7 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

 

3) Experts make easy choices for themselves, not realizing the cost to others.

When you're a well paid medical professional, life is full of choices.
When you are a poor worker, you don't have those opportunity.

The medical community missed that perspective.
I was riding in a taxi in Uganda a few months ago.  Right as 42 days of lockdown started.

You know what they discussed? The average number of people who live in a single room with a dirt floor.
No one cares about coronavirus in that situation.  

But, the medical community can't help themselves by demanding more lockdowns, demanding this, or that.
Giving out addicts and telling everyone how to live.

It's as if they are completely oblivious that clean water and sanitation would improve lives so much more.

 

But we fixate on a virus that hurts the old - by sacrificing our young.
We wonder why there is eroding trust in medicine, public health experts, and no civil discussion about any of it online.  

Of course you're tired.  That sounds exhausting.
From the other side, as a normal person, we're exhausted by doctors, health experts and the ivory tower medical community.
 

Public health is more than just compliance, and it's more than just a singular, endless emergency focused on a virus that isn't much risk to the next generation.

There have not been extensive lockdowns in the US for many months now.    The solution is vaccination not lockdowns.   However the US remains in a voluntary state of soft lockdown because people choose not to return to a normal work environment while the pandemic remains. Company after company in the US have chosen not to return and continue to work from home.  

Medical professional cannot make that "easy choice" for ourselves.  We largely cannot go into lockdown and cannot work from home. Six days a week, I must mask up and see patients physically .  I cannot operate on someone via Zoom.    Life is not full of choices for the healthcare profession....except some are choosing to leave the profession.  

Of course we understand that water, sanitation, HIV etc etc are huge problems in Africa.  Covid is also a massive problem in Africa where it is severely underreported. The transmission is high among communities that live in close quarters young and old and they simply do not have the treatment facilities that are saving lives in developed nations. The protocols that are successfully saving lives in the uSA are resource intensive, resources that Africa simply does not have. The disease came to Africa from rest of the world. They cannot lock down and they cannot treat the disease. The only cost effective way to contain the disease is by vaccination.  

 

I think our principal point of disagreement is you are trying to set up a generational battle.....Young vs Old.....which frankl;y is less obvious now than in prior generations.

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23 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I think our principal point of disagreement is you are trying to set up a generational battle.....Young vs Old.....which frankl;y is less obvious now than in prior generations.

Appreciate the thoughtful replies.  Most people here just snipe and post meme's.  I appreciate that you take the time to formulate your thoughts publicly.

Our disagreement is not generational (although, boomers voting with likes on facebook, has certainly hurt society)

 

Our disagreement is:

1) that vaccination is the only way to stop Covid.
I find that, frankly, myopic and incredibly heartbreaking to hear a doctor say.  

There are 8Billion people on the planet.
Herd immunity is pretty clearly not a thing with Covid (see Israel, UK, Iceland as latest examples, cases rise even at 80%+ vaccination)

The virus will not stand still for 3 years, while we try to vaccinate the world.
At best, what, 80% of people would take a vaccine? Here in Africa, I hear people say it will curse them.  
It's just not going to happen, it's a failed premise from the start.

Repurposed drugs, encouraging healthy outdoor activities that keep people in good physical condition. 
Vitamin D from natural sunlight.  There are so many more options than just 'stop the world for 3 years, vaccinate it, and we'll be ok'

 

2) The cure is worse than the disease.
Lockdowns in particular, but, I'd also say the crushing of small businesses.

CNN is happy to count cases, and have a death counter... but, no one is counting the fallout from our actions.

 

3) Myopic focus on one disease, rather than public health.
Some pretty famous doctors at Harvard, Stanford and Oxford have talked about this for two years now.

The entire world is focused on one thing. The eradication of one thing.
It's like WWII for an American.  'Beat the Axis, nothing else matters, sacrifice everything for that'

Covid wouldn't be the end of the world.  160,000 people die every day, and 200,000+ people are born, daily.
The population of the world is expanding drastically.   Why not help people flourish, grow, prosper.

Instead, the rich are fine with their vaccines, their internet, their social media. 
The drivers in Namibia who rely on tourists to feed their families?  Screw 'em, collateral damage.
All the fallout is minimized, because of focus on one single disease.

 

We'll probably never agree on this, and the groupthink is so powerful, no one is changing sides at this point.

As someone vaccinated from more diseases than anyone I know back in the US...
The fact that the government, and public health officials trip all over themselves to make Pfizer rich, by telling everyone the vaccine is the ONLY solution.

 

That's clearly not only medically incorrect, but, I'd argue, morally reprehensible.
Just watching the world burn, while patting each other on the back saying 'we can beat this' -  I dunno, maybe if I was in the US, I would understand.
But, from an outsiders point of view. 

These are the darkest human actions the world has seen in 80 years.

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14 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

...

Our disagreement is:

1) that vaccination is the only way to stop Covid.
I find that, frankly, myopic and incredibly heartbreaking to hear a doctor say.  

...

For one doctor speaking to one patient, what else should the doctor say? Isolate forever? Go ahead and roll the dice, the odds are good, ~ 1/50 if the hospitals aren't overwhelmed, that you won't die; odds look like about ~1/20 that you won't have long term health consequences like heart or liver failure.

As a public health measure, there are other options to hold back contagious disease but for the individual, vaccination is the best.

 

17 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

....

2) The cure is worse than the disease.
Lockdowns in particular, but, I'd also say the crushing of small businesses.

....

And plague in the streets is good for business?

You're a pinhead, and that's when you're not parroting RWNJ lies.

- DSK

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9 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Appreciate the thoughtful replies.  Most people here just snipe and post meme's.  I appreciate that you take the time to formulate your thoughts publicly.

Our disagreement is not generational (although, boomers voting with likes on facebook, has certainly hurt society)

 

Our disagreement is:

1) that vaccination is the only way to stop Covid.
I find that, frankly, myopic and incredibly heartbreaking to hear a doctor say.  

There are 8Billion people on the planet.
Herd immunity is pretty clearly not a thing with Covid (see Israel, UK, Iceland as latest examples, cases rise even at 80%+ vaccination)

The virus will not stand still for 3 years, while we try to vaccinate the world.
At best, what, 80% of people would take a vaccine? Here in Africa, I hear people say it will curse them.  
It's just not going to happen, it's a failed premise from the start.

Repurposed drugs, encouraging healthy outdoor activities that keep people in good physical condition. 
Vitamin D from natural sunlight.  There are so many more options than just 'stop the world for 3 years, vaccinate it, and we'll be ok'

 

2) The cure is worse than the disease.
Lockdowns in particular, but, I'd also say the crushing of small businesses.

CNN is happy to count cases, and have a death counter... but, no one is counting the fallout from our actions.

 

3) Myopic focus on one disease, rather than public health.
Some pretty famous doctors at Harvard, Stanford and Oxford have talked about this for two years now.

The entire world is focused on one thing. The eradication of one thing.
It's like WWII for an American.  'Beat the Axis, nothing else matters, sacrifice everything for that'

Covid wouldn't be the end of the world.  160,000 people die every day, and 200,000+ people are born, daily.
The population of the world is expanding drastically.   Why not help people flourish, grow, prosper.

Instead, the rich are fine with their vaccines, their internet, their social media. 
The drivers in Namibia who rely on tourists to feed their families?  Screw 'em, collateral damage.
All the fallout is minimized, because of focus on one single disease.

 

We'll probably never agree on this, and the groupthink is so powerful, no one is changing sides at this point.

As someone vaccinated from more diseases than anyone I know back in the US...
The fact that the government, and public health officials trip all over themselves to make Pfizer rich, by telling everyone the vaccine is the ONLY solution.

 

That's clearly not only medically incorrect, but, I'd argue, morally reprehensible.
Just watching the world burn, while patting each other on the back saying 'we can beat this' -  I dunno, maybe if I was in the US, I would understand.
But, from an outsiders point of view. 

These are the darkest human actions the world has seen in 80 years.

Im happy to engage in thoughtful discussion.  Even when I strongly disagree with someone, provided we remain open to new information and new facts, I see no point in acrimony.   So here goes:

Quote

1) that vaccination is the only way to stop Covid.
I find that, frankly, myopic and incredibly heartbreaking to hear a doctor say.  

Currently Vaccination is the cost effective way to contain covid.   There is not herd immunity because (a) Not enough people have been vaccinated and (b) We do not know if the vaccine provides sterilizing immunity......possibly not.

The alternative is an anti-viral.  The only ones showing any real promise are very expensive compared to a vaccine and not as effective.   It would be nice to think that Vitamin D and exercise would prevent Covid but that is not how it works.  Exercise and good health is a worthy goal in itself and gets my support but in a world where poor countries have malnourished millions and wealthy countries have young and old susceptible to covid, we need more than good exercise. I hope an anti-viral can be developed but we are already lucky that we have a vaccine (which we never had with AIDS).

I am not arguing that vaccination is the only weapon vs Covid in the long term, but in the short to medium term it is the most effective and most cost effective

Quote

2) The cure is worse than the disease.
Lockdowns in particular, but, I'd also say the crushing of small businesses.

Lockdowns are not the issue. In the very early stages, it gave us a breathing space to develop protocols. We havent had major lockdowns in the USA for a long time. The reality is that the economy goes into its own lockdown....you cannot stop people responding to a surge. In the last 2 weeks as Delta surged, activity in the uSA has slowed dramatically again. Travel is down, spending is down as people choose to stay at home more again, and elective doctor visits decline.  (I have had 17 cancellations this week......100% gave the reason they want to wait until Delta surge is over).

So if you support small businesses etc, you need to support containing covid. Currently the best option is vaccination, despite all its flaws.

Quote

3) Myopic focus on one disease, rather than public health.
Some pretty famous doctors at Harvard, Stanford and Oxford have talked about this for two years now.

No argument from me there. In many parts of the world, public health and the pandemic have to be addressed in tandem. Both will require long term , marathon efforts.

 

I realize Blatant......that I havent followed all your posts and am not sure on all your views.

I see you are

1. Ant- Lock downs

2. Strong believer that more attention needs placing on public health in poorer nations

I confess Im not sure what your views are on vaccination. I know you think we should be using more tools than just vaccination but do you support that we should be at least using vaccination as one of our tools and rolling it out as fast as we can.

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52 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

The virus will not stand still for 3 years, while we try to vaccinate the world.
At best, what, 80% of people would take a vaccine? Here in Africa, I hear people say it will curse them.  
It's just not going to happen, it's a failed premise from the start.

Africa has terrible life expectancy, but that doesnt mean we should stop trying.  There have been some major adoptions of drugs in Africa that have drastically reduced other diseases ag Dengue. Maybe they will embrace vaccination. They have before with smallpox, polio and Cholera vaccination with good success.

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On 8/15/2021 at 1:42 PM, EYESAILOR said:

Yes this is a cause of fatigue.

Nobody accused the medical community of being political  when doctors and nurses , both Republican and Democrat, worked shoulder to shoulder saving lives. I was not on the front line but my sister was. Neither of us can remember a single example of a healthcare worker taking a political stance......it was purely and simple a medical challenge.

This recent politicization and distrust of the medical community is deeply hurtful to medical professionals.  There are a broad range of political affiliations within the medical community. Yes, of course there are fringe participants on the far left and far right like any sample of any population but what is amazing is that both right wing and left wing medical professionals see this as a virus and disease and generally agree on the best practices and the best way forward.

It is simply untrue to say we have not adjusted our thinking. We knew very little about this disease when it arrived in Feb/March 2020. We have discovered new ways of treating patients. We have gone down some blind alleys, made mistakes and quickly revised protocols and treatments and gotten better and better at treatment. The survival rate, adjusted for age , is much better now than it was 17 months ago.  But has anyone said thank you?   Nope , instead there is lots of finger pointing, picking up on every change of course as if it is a bad thing to change advice or protocols.  The commentators seem to want to discourage change and adaption because they like to go back 6 months and say "oh look how wrong your were".    Sorry, that is the way we make scientific and medical progress.

Public trust is not where it should be........but not because of the doctors.......but because they are undermined by hoodoo science and snake oil circulated on social media.  My hope and belief is that public trust is gradually being rebuilt.

The simple medical advice that physicians from the left and right political leanings is simply that prevention is much better than the cure and the vaccines are effective. 

 

 

Quite simply: Thank you, and Clove, on behalf of all the medical staff that kept and keeps working so hard.

 

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On 8/15/2021 at 9:42 PM, EYESAILOR said:

This recent politicization and distrust of the medical community is deeply hurtful to medical professionals. 

This is the gorilla in the room for me. When you stop and think about it, for our nurses and doctors:

  • going to work every day with Covid brings an elevated degree of risk to you and your family/friends;
  • the hours they are pulling is even longer than normal (our local GP has been 12hrs a day for a year in a minimal Covid area);
  • its been like this for over 15 months;
  • there is now a surge despite their best efforts;
  • they are short staffed;
  • it doesn't pay millions; and
  • now they are perceived as distrustful? 

There are only two things that I found encourage and maintain motivation; money and job satisfaction. 

I've always found money is often the lesser. The power in job satisfaction, that is being appreciated and a valued member of a team, is far more motivational than money ever will be. Being accused of ulterior motives, aside from being grossly unfair, is just piling on people strained to their maximum and must exhaust any remnant of job satisfaction. Maintaining motivation in a gruelling schedule is hard enough, but being viewed as distrustful or 'evil'  when you are giving every fibre of your being into helping them would be almost soul shattering. 

Returned servicemen get thanks and respect bluntly, for taking lives. Yet people in our communities want to distrust doctors and nurses for saving them. That says a lot about us. 

Morality has to be learned and I can't help but think we're overdue for a refresher or two. One thing's for sure, losing front line staff because of our treatment of them will be a harsh way to learn. We all know the fault lies with the arseholes, but maybe those of us that do care can try and do a little more to show it, as that's an end result that none of us want.    

 

 

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33 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

There are only two things that I found encourage and maintain motivation; money and job satisfaction. 

I've always found money is often the lesser. The power in job satisfaction, that is being appreciated and a valued member of a team, is far more motivational than money ever will be.

This. Unless you're really motivated by money, once you are getting 'enough' then job satisfaction is far, far more important. I changed jobs more than once for a lower salary but more interesting challenges. Or on one occasion to distance myself from a toxic boss. On that occasion 5 of my 6 staff quit within 6 months of my going. They couldn't stand him either.

The front line people - doctors & nurses - are under immense strain. One at a covid testing clinic got abused & punched by an anti-vaxer passer-by last week. Others have been threatened & abused for not having the 'right' type of vaccine.

That sort of shit needs hammering down hard.

FKT

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

This. Unless you're really motivated by money, once you are getting 'enough' then job satisfaction is far, far more important. I changed jobs more than once for a lower salary but more interesting challenges. Or on one occasion to distance myself from a toxic boss. On that occasion 5 of my 6 staff quit within 6 months of my going. They couldn't stand him either.

The front line people - doctors & nurses - are under immense strain. One at a covid testing clinic got abused & punched by an anti-vaxer passer-by last week. Others have been threatened & abused for not having the 'right' type of vaccine.

That sort of shit needs hammering down hard.

FKT

Personal recognition and peer approval cannot be stated highly enough as motivating factors.

Engaging with people is the skill of leadership, getting them to do their best. It's kind of surprising how bad so many "leaders" are at it. THen we have the opposite of leadership, in the jerks who are trying to tear the system down.

- DSK

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16 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I see you are

1. Ant- Lock downs

2. Strong believer that more attention needs placing on public health in poorer nations

I confess Im not sure what your views are on vaccination. I know you think we should be using more tools than just vaccination but do you support that we should be at least using vaccination as one of our tools and rolling it out as fast as we can.

1) 100% correct.   When you compare US counties/USstates/countries that love lockdown vs didn't, it's pretty hard to see a correlation to outcome.
I frankly don't entertain the 'it could have been worse' arguments.  That's not science, just conjecture.


For the societal cost (not to mention reduction of civil liberties of all individuals in the world).
I contend it was not only bad policy but it hurt more people than it helped.
We built (and are building now) a digital Berlin Wall. And everyone is cheering.

 

2) Yup.  The first world absolutely just pulled its privilege card. 
I've talked to people who wonder about feeding their families here - no jobs.  No income. No food.
Lots of NGOs have stepped in to help, and people are *tough* which is amazing. 

I'd  add first world countries to that too.  Public health is the goal, but we close gyms for 2 years?
Sorry, this is not compatible. 1st world people are obese, diabetic and unhealthy.  And those things don't help you fight covid.
Why not encourage healthy living?  

Hell, how great would it be instead of giving billions to Pfizer, and segregating society - we encouraged people to be healthy?
All the people here demanding 'no care unless you're vaccinated' probably can't run an 8 minute mile (I barely can).  
Yet, they are happy to preach about health to others, as long as it involves drugs.

 

3) 100% onboard with immunizing vaccines.  
My WHO yellow card is filled up with them. All the African stuff, all the normal US stuff. I believe in them strongly.

That said, I'm certainly not going to get a Covid-19 vaccine. Neither will my family.
I don't care if they do, but, they aren't interested either.

If something is so clearly, demonstrably good, and it's free, why does it require a ‘mandate’? 
That's enough for me to not get it.

Add in no benefits, moving goal-posts (israel going back into lockdown after 85% vax rate now?). Vaccine was supposed to 'get us back to normal' - now it prevents you from going to the hospital, maybe.  Countries with high vax rates aren't undoing their restrictions, they are doubling down.

The media censors any dissent... why?  If vaccine is so great, why censor debate?  Surely free debate brings the truth to light
Also, listening to that awful Dr Fauci guy for two years, there is no person I trust less now except maybe Trump.
He's a pop icon now, not a practicing doctor.  No thanks.

When debate is suppressed, when big companies are getting rich, when there is a mandate for certain behavior, and when there is no discussion allowed?
How can you be surprised 30-40% of people don't want what you're selling?


That's not a free society, that's authoritarianism. And everyone is cheering it, and bullying others to do as they are told.
'This is how the republic dies, to thunderous applause'

 

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12 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

That said, I'm certainly not going to get a Covid-19 vaccine. Neither will my family.
I don't care if they do, but, they aren't interested either.

Whatever, dude. You want to opt out, no problems. We can just ignore you.

Oh BTW - if you catch covid from someone, I hope you've ticked all those 'do not treat' and 'do not resuscitate' boxes. You wouldn't want to be a hypocrite after all.

And enjoy your current locale because you're likely to have a lot more time to get to know it.

FKT

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13 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Oh BTW - if you catch covid from someone,

RE : B E

or anyone in your family , kRist what a role model .

make sure you take a good look in the mirror as your unvaxed suffer .

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45 minutes ago, random. said:

I did four science subjects in the last two years of High School.  I went on to working in Engineering Materials, then IT.  Not once did I ever conceive that Scientists and Engineers would one day be demonized by the man on the street, by broadcasters and News sources.  The medical profession is the most recent members of this exclusive club.

Welcome.

Simple explanation for that:

"People fear what they don't understand and hate what they can't conquer"

Andrew Smith I believe.

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7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Whatever, dude. You want to opt out, no problems. We can just ignore you.

Oh BTW - if you catch covid from someone, I hope you've ticked all those 'do not treat' and 'do not resuscitate' boxes. You wouldn't want to be a hypocrite after all.

And enjoy your current locale because you're likely to have a lot more time to get to know it.

FKT

lol, I was in Tasmania last year, March.  It was lovely.

You don't need to be vaccinated to travel most places. 
People want money, so, they let you in with a negative test.

Don't need a vaccine to be safe, obviously. (unless you're in the first world, and you're watching mainstream media and you're scared to death and compliant like a good citizen should be)

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8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

1) 100% correct.   When you compare US counties/USstates/countries that love lockdown vs didn't, it's pretty hard to see a correlation to outcome.
I frankly don't entertain the 'it could have been worse' arguments.  That's not science, just conjecture.

It is an irrelevant argument now but lockdowns clearly slowed disease spread for a time.  Let  us just agree that it is not a long term solution.
For the societal cost (not to mention reduction of civil liberties of all individuals in the world).
I contend it was not only bad policy but it hurt more people than it helped.
We built (and are building now) a digital Berlin Wall. And everyone is cheering.

 

2) Yup.  The first world absolutely just pulled its privilege card. 
I've talked to people who wonder about feeding their families here - no jobs.  No income. No food.
Lots of NGOs have stepped in to help, and people are *tough* which is amazing. 

I'd  add first world countries to that too.  Public health is the goal, but we close gyms for 2 years?
Sorry, this is not compatible. 1st world people are obese, diabetic and unhealthy.  And those things don't help you fight covid.
Why not encourage healthy living?  

Hell, how great would it be instead of giving billions to Pfizer, and segregating society - we encouraged people to be healthy?  Pfizer did not take any government money or warp speed subsidies.  The other vaccine manufacturers did. It was money well spent compared to the ongoing cost of the disease. 
All the people here demanding 'no care unless you're vaccinated' probably can't run an 8 minute mile (I barely can).  
Yet, they are happy to preach about health to others, as long as it involves drugs.

 

 

8 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

If something is so clearly, demonstrably good, and it's free, why does it require a ‘mandate’? 
That's enough for me to not get it.

Add in no benefits, moving goal-posts (israel going back into lockdown after 85% vax rate now?). Vaccine was supposed to 'get us back to normal' - now it prevents you from going to the hospital, maybe.  Countries with high vax rates aren't undoing their restrictions, they are doubling down.

The media censors any dissent... why?  If vaccine is so great, why censor debate?  Surely free debate brings the truth to light
Also, listening to that awful Dr Fauci guy for two years, there is no person I trust less now except maybe Trump.
He's a pop icon now, not a practicing doctor.  No thanks.

When debate is suppressed, when big companies are getting rich, when there is a mandate for certain behavior, and when there is no discussion allowed?
How can you be surprised 30-40% of people don't want what you're selling?


That's not a free society, that's authoritarianism. And everyone is cheering it, and bullying others to do as they are told.
'This is how the republic dies, to thunderous applause'

 

The really big disconnect that I simply do not understand, try as I might, is that you strongly believe in vaccines and have taken many vaccines but you are adamantly opposed to the Covid Vaccine.

I dont follow your reasons

1. You say you distrust the vaccine because its mandated.

  • It is not mandated yet in the USA.  Various employers and institutions have mandated it because they want a safe environment (and that is reasonable).  If the vaccine is safe ad effective, one would expect it to be mandated for certain activites.
  • Many other vaccines are mandated, including several on your WHO card.

2. You dont like Dr Fauci ?     What on earth has that got to do with a logical and thoughtful decision to get vaccinated?  You should not be influenced one way or another by someone you dislike and distrust. You can make your own mind up based on the information you have, like other vaccines.

For your own health, that of your family, and in general.......please at least be open to the vaccine.  The data supports that it is effective and safe.

We can argue about the rest of the stuff in due course but please do not be influenced by the politics . Its unfortunate . the vaccine should be an apolitical health decision.  If you are worried about side effects, say so, but thus far the news flow is good.

 

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16 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Don't need a vaccine to be safe, obviously. (unless you're in the first world, and you're watching mainstream media and you're scared to death and compliant like a good citizen should be)

But Blatant.........the vaccine does make you safer.

I dont agree with your other arguments but I understand them.  I dont understand why someone who is vaccinated vs yellow fever, cholera, polio, smallpox, and many others besides is not vaccinated vs Covid. You are more likely to catch covid than any of the others. 

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

But Blatant.........the vaccine does make you safer.

I dont agree with your other arguments but I understand them.  I dont understand why someone who is vaccinated vs yellow fever, cholera, polio, smallpox, and many others besides is not vaccinated vs Covid. You are more likely to catch covid than any of the others. 

^^^^This,  in the States especially it’s fast becoming not if ….but when.

When, will likely be a particularly slow and painful death but having a jab will change the odds significantly  and as mentioned above it’s already overwhelming medical response.

How long before responders actually spend their time and effort on those who are vaccinated with an actual chance of recovery vs numb nuts incubating the next variant.

The only plus for the numb nuts is they get to wish they where vaccinated as they cough and wheeze to death.

Hope you have your affairs in order and remember….where there’s a will there’s a relative.

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