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My hospital is so fucked right now (RN)


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14 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the line 'safe and effective'.

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I recently came across a photo of myself in late December 2020 getting my first dose of a Covid-19 vaccine. I was ecstatic. Many of my colleagues posted similar images. Even though we were all wearing

@BlatantEcho  It's true head hunters for nurses can and do advertise far out of scale salaries for travel assignments.  It's going to be a bigger business in the coming years as burnout from bedside n

Blatant, I agree with you that the cost of treating patients is a small (but not insignificant) part of the cost of the Pandemic.  The enormous amount of debt being created in the world in the pa

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

listened to a You Tube video which had similar theories.

Nothing breaks off and floats around in your body. The strand of mRNA replicates the protein of the spike (you have lots of proteins in your body) and stimulates you immune system to generate anti bodies.

There are many diseases which wont kill you but you do well to avoid. In my honest opinion Covid is one of them.  I am not trying to bully you in any shape or form. Just keep that independent mind of yours open ......and if the data warrants, keep open to the possibility of revising your opinion and getting vaccinated.

 

If it's on YouTube, it's censored by Google...  so, yeah, you can't talk about science where there is censorship.  Just not how it works.
Same thing if you listen to Fox News or CNN.  
It's not actual news anymore.   

 

I'd love to avoid Covid, but I'm also not scared of it.
I work hard to avoid malaria, but, I'm not scared of it either.
Same for ebola in West Africa, or any other crazy diseases.

I don't want them, but, I don't stop my life because *of* them.

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

On the vaccine. There is data and its increasing. We'll discuss when we have more.

On flying? Does the analogy with the 737 mean you have stopped flying in Boeing aircraft? as well as avoiding the CV19 vaccines?

Bring it on.  I'd like to read all the VAERS reports alongside, see if we can generate a consensus between us.

If after 2-3 years, the vaccine data is freely out there, side effects, deaths and studies of protection.  I will read it happily.
I'm happy to change my mind once there is science or data.

But, everyone and their uncle beating the drum that 'the science is settled' - is clearly propagandist BS.  That's also not how science works.

------
737 comment, you actually complete the point I made, which is terrific.

A lot of people stopped flying the MAX, refused to board one - even though it was very safe to do so.  
The articles in the paper (Seattle Times in particular....) were that 'no one will ever fly one again.  This is the end of Boeing.
So much hand wringing happened.

And now?  Thousands of flights a day, and no one even mentions it. The hysteria moved on.
The media made their money, and off we go.


I'm not taking a vaccine against something I'm not at risk for - that's just basic personal health decisions made by a rational human.
Just like I didn't avoid the MAX, as I knew the dangers were tiny.  I didn't change my life because of Covid, as I know the dangers are tiny.

 

Remember math.  60,000,000 people die each year, normally, of natural causes.
Covid deaths were attributed to like 4.3M people in two years.
So, 120million people have died, 4.3M of them had covid. 

That's 3.5%
And with 7.88Billion people in the world, that's .0005% of the population dead by Covid.

I'm sorry, we've made a mountain of the smallest ant hill.


We stopped the entire world for 2+ years, over something that kills:
3.5% of the people who died naturally
.0005% of the total population

 

That's not science.
That's fear.

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1 minute ago, BlatantEcho said:

Remember math.  60,000,000 people die each year, normally, of natural causes.

Most natural causes are not contagious you fucking shill.

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I'll add one more point:

 

This hysteria all looks a lot like religion. The talking points are so similar:

"Believe us, or else!"
"We trust in _________"
"Do what we say, or you might die"
"It's your fault for doing naughty things"
"Our way is the truth, all true believers know that"
"This time is different, it's an emergency, believe what we say"

 

It's all so anti-logic, anti-reason, and just... self congratulator group think.
You can tell, because they don't debate the facts, they just post memes now.
 

3 years ago, doctors would have been laughing at our handling of this.
Lockdowns?  Segregate the public based on their vaccine status?  Universal masking? Shut down schools?
Quarantine the healthy?  Close gyms to benefit public health?


Now: they are preaching the gospel according to Big Pharma, a government that just lost a 20 year war, and the corporate media.

And what's the line now "Follow the Science"


Sounds like something someone in a religious cult would say, not an actual scientist.

 

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BE is just another troll jerking everyone's chain. Full of shit about avoiding ebola and malaria. Like he actually has exposure to those. Drank the coolaid about spike proteins, etc. He is a blatant idiot, best ignored.

Cristoforo shows the real situation. The US alone will have at least a hundred thousand more die unnecessarily by the end of this year. We are now around 750 per day, heading back towards 1000 per day, all completely avoidable with readily available and free superb vaccines. It could not be more stupid.

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BE and Wess both thrive on attention, at least Wess admits he is trolling - BE is just a sock for this one forum.   Just like those I know who have chosen not to get vaxxed and/or wear masks when appropriate I am no longer arguing and rather am avoiding.

Same here - arguing only give them a platform and attention, so it's your choice.

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4 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

BE and Wess both thrive on attention, at least Wess admits he is trolling - BE is just a sock for this one forum.   Just like those I know who have chosen not to get vaxxed and/or wear masks when appropriate I am no longer arguing and rather am avoiding.

Same here - arguing only give them a platform and attention, so it's your choice.

Wess is at least an actual sailor. And for some reason, he claims making an imbecile of himself is "fun."

It truly takes all types, huh

- DSK

 

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11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Wess is at least an actual sailor. And for some reason, he claims making an imbecile of himself is "fun."

It truly takes all types, huh

- DSK

 

It's all fun and games until someone gets really sick or even dies. That is the difference for this forum, hard to find an analogy for sailing except for ridiculing the use of pfds - except that would only endanger the person who follows it.  In a global pandemic we are only as strong as the weakest link and the behavior of others affects all of us.  The resistance to vaccines has been strong before, certainly was for small pox since the cure was the disease itself (at first, then a lesser strain) but the politization has now enabled a 4th and likely more deadly wave in the US prolonging to start the mutations and likely leading to need a booster shot, and then possibly worse. 

There is no moderation so it's on each of us to decide what is entertaining.  For me? I am out. Fuck the Trolls and Fuck Scot for allowing it.

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35 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

It's all fun and games until someone gets really sick or even dies. That is the difference for this forum, hard to find an analogy for sailing except for ridiculing the use of pfds - except that would only endanger the person who follows it.  In a global pandemic we are only as strong as the weakest link and the behavior of others affects all of us.  The resistance to vaccines has been strong before, certainly was for small pox since the cure was the disease itself (at first, then a lesser strain) but the politization has now enabled a 4th and likely more deadly wave in the US prolonging to start the mutations and likely leading to need a booster shot, and then possibly worse. 

There is no moderation so it's on each of us to decide what is entertaining.  For me? I am out. Fuck the Trolls and Fuck Scot for allowing it.

Another possible comparison would to the people who move to the southeast coastal area and don't "believe in" hurricanes. It's easy to find people, even some who have been thru hurricanes, who poo-poo the whole idea that hurricanes are potentially dangerous and should be prepared for, and in some cases even evacuated from. It's rare but not unknown for people to actively discourage their neighbors from preparing.

One of the things I do every other year is hold a seminar on how to prepare your boat for a hurricane, for newcomers. There are some unbelievers in every crowd. I usually tell them, "Go on, leave now. There is nothing I can do or say that will help you" and they often agree cheerfully and leave. Because the basics of preparing for a hurricane is hard work, usually on an unpleasantly hot day when you could be indoors, bullshitting on the internet while basking in the air conditioning. You can always insist it didn't really happen, later, but that tends to interfere with your insurance claim.....

- DSK

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Wait, all this magical thinking has me confused about how these people actually live. Do they actually purchase insurance against things they don't believe in?

It's all just so baffling. How do you live in a world where the laws of nature change on a daily basis, depending only on what your favorite preacher/politician/Rupert tells you they are?

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3 hours ago, TheDragon said:

We are now around 750 per day, heading back towards 1000 per day, all completely avoidable with readily available and free superb vaccines. It could not be more stupid.

I'd argue we will be collectively much less stupid of a country, after COVID takes the anti-vaxers.   

Darwin hasn't had much of a chance in the west, ever since we hunted the wolves to near extinction. But he's getting a 2nd chance.

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13 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

It's unreal you can't find the real data after 2 years.  

Since I'm not a boomer like everyone on this site, my risk is vanishingly small, less than the flu.  
It's just science man.
 

The estimated IFR:
is 0.002 percent for people 17 or younger
0.05 percent for 18-to-49-year-olds
and 0.6 percent for 50-to-64-year-olds.

CDC.gov

Who's a boomer now??  

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9 hours ago, d'ranger said:

There is no moderation so it's on each of us to decide what is entertaining.  For me? I am out. Fuck the Trolls and Fuck Scot for allowing it.

Yeah I'm over both of them. I've read their shit, I've been relatively polite, I'm simply not interested in reading more of the same.

So in the bin they go.

FKT

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2 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Covid in general has been great for finding out who people in general really are. 

OMG, yes. The whole MAGA movement was the coarse pre-filter but covid really brought in the shades of grey. We found out who in our social circle would step over the bodies of the elderly to jump the line for vaccines (spoiler: leading the pack was the most stridently progressive, virtue-signalling friend we have), who had good critical thinking skills, and who was willing to get the vaccine herself but wouldn't let her 15yo take it for "reasons". 

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Incidentally, the kid caught Delta recently and appears to have fully recovered (no long symptoms) but the woman irreparably damaged her relationship with her parents and siblings for putting him at risk. 

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It has definitely shown up those who are easily taken in by the covidiots and social media.

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16 hours ago, IStream said:

Incidentally, the kid caught Delta recently and appears to have fully recovered (no long symptoms) but the woman irreparably damaged her relationship with her parents and siblings for putting him at risk. 

Actually as a mother, I get that.

My kids are in their 20's and able to do their own risk assessments. I want them both vaccinated, all we have is AZ. They both made their own choice to get the jab.

A 15 year old is the responsibility of their parents.

A few months back before Delta, when it was thought that young people were not vulnerable, to make a decision on their behalf would not be easy.

Lot of things to weigh up, the prevalence of the virus in the community,  the risk of infection to your child, what type of vaccines is available and the advice of the CDC.

It's not the business of sibs and parents or "friends" to judge.

One day this will be over and we are going to have some healing of rifts to do.

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5 hours ago, Melibob said:

One day this will be over and we are going to have some healing of rifts to do.

Yes, one day it will be over. The Covidiots that have not effected will then be saying "told you so".

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5 hours ago, Melibob said:

Actually as a mother, I get that.

My kids are in their 20's and able to do their own risk assessments. I want them both vaccinated, all we have is AZ. They both made their own choice to get the jab.

A 15 year old is the responsibility of their parents.

A few months back before Delta, when it was thought that young people were not vulnerable, to make a decision on their behalf would not be easy.

Lot of things to weigh up, the prevalence of the virus in the community,  the risk of infection to your child, what type of vaccines is available and the advice of the CDC.

It's not the business of sibs and parents or "friends" to judge.

One day this will be over and we are going to have some healing of rifts to do.

You don't know the details of the situation so I'll give you a pass but the bottom line is that you're wrong.

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1 hour ago, Gangbusters said:

Yes, one day it will be over. The Covidiots that have not effected will then be saying "told you so".

One day it will be over, or a "life as usual now" at least.

But some rifts should not be healed. Family or not. Best friend for 40 years or not. People show who they are. Sometimes that's not a good person to have in your life. 

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On 8/14/2021 at 4:56 PM, EYESAILOR said:

Blatant,

I agree with you that the cost of treating patients is a small (but not insignificant) part of the cost of the Pandemic.  The enormous amount of debt being created in the world in the past year and a half is not going to be paid off in our lifetimes. The 2020-2022 pandemic will still be being paid off by our children in 30 years time from now.

The only way to get back to anything like normal is widespread adoption of the vaccine.  The world will not re-open of its own accord.

I take this thread to be more about the human cost in the healthcare industry. In the US, the sad, unavoidable fact is that healthcare workers are demoralized and tired. Fifteen months ago, the front line hospital workers were lauded as heroes.  How long ago that now seems. I dont presume to have an explanation. I merely observe that everywhere healthcare has suddenly found itself short of staff. Doctors are leaving practices , nurses are looking for new careers , medical assistants are taking leaves of absences.  Im hearing about this from all my colleagues and reading about it in practice journals and hospital memos.  There is a people crisis in the US healthcare industry.

It might partially be because we never got to work from home. We have been wearing masks 9-10 hours a day, 6 days a week for 18 months. It has been grinding.

But I think there are bigger forces at work which are demoralizing healthcare workers. 

It gets increasingly hard to care. Healthcare is really guts grinding hard work.....and care is an important motivator. Its harder and harder to care for people who dont give a fuck about anyone else.  When there is a section of American society that is basically saying "I'm okay. I dont give a damn about anyone else", that critical energy source that keeps a healthcare worker motivated to care for the sick and injured is getting battered.

THIS. ALL F---KING DAY.

More than a few of you around here know Mrs. Divided Sky, an ER doc who happens to be the beating heart on our little mom & pop PHRF program Summit 35. I am genuinely worried about her more than ever now. RI is mandating vax for all health care workers by 10/1 and there are a lot of heath care workers who are giving pushback. If they don't get it they are subject to license suspension, fines, being fired. This is going to hit our system like a nuclear weapon.

For those who will remain on the front lines, burnout is going to spread exponentially. I truly believe our darkest days are ahead of us...these people can't work any more hours. They are physically hitting their limit. It is just that simple. 

Good luck to all of you in heath care. You will never walk alone. 

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10 hours ago, Vin said:

THIS. ALL F---KING DAY.

More than a few of you around here know Mrs. Divided Sky, an ER doc who happens to be the beating heart on our little mom & pop PHRF program Summit 35. I am genuinely worried about her more than ever now. RI is mandating vax for all health care workers by 10/1 and there are a lot of heath care workers who are giving pushback. If they don't get it they are subject to license suspension, fines, being fired. This is going to hit our system like a nuclear weapon.

For those who will remain on the front lines, burnout is going to spread exponentially. I truly believe our darkest days are ahead of us...these people can't work any more hours. They are physically hitting their limit. It is just that simple. 

Good luck to all of you in heath care. You will never walk alone. 

Friend of mine's husband is a nurse.  
He just walked off the job this week when work required vaccination.  He said 'no thanks'.


He gets calls each week from recruiters seeking to hire any nurses possible, up to $6k/week.
He's not interested.

This will have a cascade effect, on all of us.
He's not the only one opting out of 'segregation by health status.'


'Biting off the nose to spite the face' - comes to mind.

 

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30 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

He gets calls each week from recruiters seeking to hire any nurses possible, up to $6k/week.
He's not interested.

This will have a cascade effect, on all of us.

Yeah?

Why do you care, it's all good right?  And why do you not give a fuck about your family?

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12 hours ago, Vin said:

THIS. ALL F---KING DAY.

More than a few of you around here know Mrs. Divided Sky, an ER doc who happens to be the beating heart on our little mom & pop PHRF program Summit 35. I am genuinely worried about her more than ever now. RI is mandating vax for all health care workers by 10/1 and there are a lot of heath care workers who are giving pushback. If they don't get it they are subject to license suspension, fines, being fired. This is going to hit our system like a nuclear weapon.

Not sure I understand you.

You're saying that medical professionals don't believe in the protection/risk ratio of the covid vaccinations and are refusing to have them? Have I got that right?

Perhaps they're in the wrong business, then.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Not sure I understand you.

You're saying that medical professionals don't believe in the protection/risk ratio of the covid vaccinations and are refusing to have them? Have I got that right?

Yes you are correct - a significant portion of the medical community does not believe in Covid mRNA vaccines.

*some* are leaving healthcare, rather than have a gun to their head.
You can see, this could be a problem for the rest of the population, right?
 

Mandates that reduce the desire for people to do a job, mean... less people do the job...

If you *only* care about Covid, then, mandate away.
But if you care about the 97 out of 100 people who die everyday, not of Covid... then, you're hosing them by depriving them of caregivers.

 

Do you really expect 100% of people to go back to NYC?  Or San Francisco, with mandates?
No, it will be less.

Do you expect 100% of medical professionals to agree with you and your mandates?
No, there will be less of them.

 

As long as you recognize that, and don't complain in 2 years "Where are all the nurses?"
 

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Medical science is not something one "believes in."

The person in your example is making the right choice, they should not be working in the field of health care.

DSK

 

 

 

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It's best that they are no longer in a position where they use their influence to spread lies.  On balance they were doing more harm than good.

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On 8/18/2021 at 3:31 AM, BlatantEcho said:

Bring it on.  I'd like to read all the VAERS reports alongside, see if we can generate a consensus between us.

If after 2-3 years, the vaccine data is freely out there, side effects, deaths and studies of protection.  I will read it happily.
I'm happy to change my mind once there is science or data.

 

There has never been a serious side effect from a vaccine more than 8 weeks after it was given.  why the fuck would you let people die preventable deaths for two years?  I have patients who suffer from post-polio syndrome.  They would have loved to get those vaccines sooner.  Your thinking would have killed thousands.  There is no plausible biological reason for waiting.  We have given close to 400 million doses over the past 10 months.  We would know by now if there were any serious consequences.  There are not.  Your google does not equal a PhD.

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Warning, Warning.

This is going to be the Covidiots new scapegoat.

Healthcare workers refusing to sign up "because" manditory vaccinations.

(Are there actually any reliable statistics or polls to show that these health care workers (a broad cohort BTW) are refusing work because of mandatory vaccinations or maybe it's simply because they are exhausted.)

So when hospitals collapse, the blame will be firmly placed on those heroes that have burnt out.

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On 8/18/2021 at 5:13 PM, BlatantEcho said:

Mom is fully vaccinated, buys into all the hype, wears her mask everywhere.
And.. she got covid two weeks ago. 


She said 'I can't imagine how many people I spread it to'  
She felt awful about spreading it around thinking it was the common cold or flu.


Meanwhile, I get tested every week, and haven't infected anyone.  
Weird how science works huh?
 

That isn't science, it's luck. Seems you mother's moral compass wasn't passed on in your genes, so you get the default response:

Getting vaccinated doesn't stop you getting Covid. But it reduces the chance you'll get it, greatly reduces the severity of the disease and reduces the chance you'll pass it on. Just like other vaccines.

When you get your Covid test, do you quarantine until you get the result? If the test comes back positive, will you isolate for 14 days? If you get seriously ill will you refuse medical treatment because you chose not to get vaccinated and therefore chose to have a much higher chance of being sick?

I only personally knew of one Covid anti–vaxer. He was just like you: I'm healthy, won't get sick, can't see the point, not getting it. Then his wife was put in quarantine as a close contact of an unvaccinated confirmed case who was hospitalised and quite sick. He got his first jab within days.

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There are idiots everywhere. To work in healthcare you already have to have a whole lot of vaccinations in most (all?) nations. Some are common, some not so much. 
Covid is one more. If anything I'd want to be vaccinated real quick before I get infected on the job...
Ahows how little science education is required in huge parts the medical sector.

Makes me happy that thing are not quite a crazy where I live. Like the total opposite of what Clove Hitch described.
As I've said in the other thread: After a late evening call from the GP a family member went to the ER of what should be a level 2 clinic in the US, walk in, first in line. For some reason they had no other customers that Wednesday evening. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (Never happened to me in the past.)
The suspect blood test got confirmed by the hospital lab, EKG still showed nothing, admitted to cardiology. More invasive examinations and a trip to the cath lab followed in morning and resulted in a stent.

Currently I wouldn't like my chances to try the same in the large parts of the US... Some of the EMS stories that go around are just outright insane.

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18 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Yes you are correct - a significant portion of the medical community does not believe in Covid mRNA vaccines.

Reference? What are you calling "significant"? There are both mRNA and traditional vaccines available, get whichever one you think is best for you (which is most likely whatever vaccine you can get right now).

18 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

*some* are leaving healthcare, rather than have a gun to their head.
You can see, this could be a problem for the rest of the population, right?

Reference? Have you done some analysis on the effect of healthcare workers leaving the profession due to mandated vaccinations versus the effect of bed shortages caused by Covid outbreaks? For example, 50% of Florida's ICU beds are filled with Covid patients. Florida has a 50% vaccination rate, which is almost exactly the US national average. Britain, with rampant infections and with a much higher vaccination rate, is not having the same issue.

There is a huge concern among healthcare workers about catching Covid from patients which will only be attenuated by knowing +80% of the population is vaccinated.

18 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Mandates that reduce the desire for people to do a job, mean... less people do the job...

Pure supposition. Where's your data?

18 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:


If you *only* care about Covid, then, mandate away.
But if you care about the 97 out of 100 people who die everyday, not of Covid... then, you're hosing them by depriving them of caregivers.

As opposed to not getting a bed at all because a sick, Covid–infected anti–vaxer is taking a bed that they wouldn't otherwise have needed?

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10 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

So it has doubled in a week?  It was 27% 14 August.

From 16 August: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253512184.html

Note that Florida is also playing with its Covid reporting. It now reports deaths for the day they occur rather than when they're reported, so it always looks like the deaths are dropping because most deaths are reported a few days late. It constantly looks like deaths peaked about 10 days ago (currently around 10 August), while infections haven't (though they seem to have peaked about 17 August).

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It's not necessary to quote the trolls, they will respond to anything but if you use the @with their name it notifies them of your response and save the rest of us having to scroll away thru the drivel.

Thanks

Miss Management

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6 minutes ago, RobG said:

From 16 August: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253512184.html

Note that Florida is also playing with its Covid reporting. It now reports deaths for the day they occur rather than when they're reported, so it always looks like the deaths are dropping because most deaths are reported a few days late.

Fair enough.  I guess the good news is that Florida's cases seem to have peaked which is in line with other Delta surges.  So it will drop quite quickly.  Florida is right on the averaged deaths per million for the USA.

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

It's not necessary to quote the trolls, they will respond to anything but if you use the @with their name it notifies them of your response and save the rest of us having to scroll away thru the drivel.

Thanks

Miss Management

You're a weak bastard.

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

When you get your Covid test, do you quarantine until you get the result?  

If the test comes back positive, will you isolate for 14 days?

If you get seriously ill will you refuse medical treatment because you chose not to get vaccinated and therefore chose to have a much higher chance of being sick?

Lol, what?  Have you not travelled at all in the last 2 years?
You have to get a test to cross international borders.  You just get a test 1-2 days before you cross.  
You don't have to 'quarantine' while waiting for test results.  
Some countries make you do a rapid test when you enter, but as long as it's free, whatever.  15-20 minute delay (unless it's uganda.. then it's hours..)

 

If I get a positive test, I'd get another test before I did anything. If I was actually sick, I'd do what I normally do - not be around people while I'm sick.
Happened in June.  I just laid in bed for a couple days, then lived my life.
Have you been quarantining yourself every time you got the flu in life? Or, is this a new trend?

I'm also not going to visit a country that has rules like that.  No thanks.

 

If I get ill, I'm going to go to a hospital. Never been to the hospital for a respiratory virus, but I'd go if I needed to.  Why wouldn't I?
Do you also say that people who drink and drive, don't/shouldn't get medical treatment?   Just let 'em die?
Or people who don't wear helmets on motorcycles, don't get medical treatment?  Let 'em bleed out?

Your moral grandstanding is above helping people - and somehow, you think *I'm* the selfish one...

 

 

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@BlatantEcho

You said you get tested every week, I assumed that was so you would know if you were infected and take appropriate action. If you're travelling so much that you get tested every week, then you really should be vaccinated.

If you get sick from Covid, then you've already been infectious for several days. Isolating at that point mitigates spread but likely you've already passed it on. I wonder what those you pass it onto think of you.

Your "moral grandstanding" straw man is built in your image, not mine, and seems to reflect your moral choices.

Withholding medical treatment from those who flout the law or refuse to take sensible public health advice is not a sound ethical or moral decision. I don't support it, nor does the law, nor medical ethics. Where I live, motorcycle helmets are mandatory, riders without helmets are fined. Same for drink and drug drivers, random testing and heavy fines provide a disincentive. People involved in accidents are tested for alcohol and drugs and if over the limit, they're fined and most vehicle insurance is void. If they refuse a test, they can be fined and punished even more heavily than if they return a positive test.

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On 8/20/2021 at 11:25 PM, BlatantEcho said:

Friend of mine's husband is a nurse.  
He just walked off the job this week when work required vaccination.  He said 'no thanks'.


He gets calls each week from recruiters seeking to hire any nurses possible, up to $6k/week.
He's not interested.

This will have a cascade effect, on all of us.
He's not the only one opting out of 'segregation by health status.'


'Biting off the nose to spite the face' - comes to mind.

 

He was in the wrong profession.

Healthcare is not for everyone. If he was in it just for the money, he wouldn’t have lasted. You really have to be into patient care to be a great nurse

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45 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

He was in the wrong profession.

Healthcare is not for everyone. If he was in it just for the money, he wouldn’t have lasted. You really have to be into patient care to be a great nurse

Is Blithering Eejit still pulling anecdotes from his rectum?

FKT

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8 hours ago, RobG said:

@BlatantEcho

You said you get tested every week, I assumed that was so you would know if you were infected and take appropriate action. If you're travelling so much that you get tested every week, then you really should be vaccinated.

If you get sick from Covid, then you've already been infectious for several days. Isolating at that point mitigates spread but likely you've already passed it on. I wonder what those you pass it onto think of you.

Your "moral grandstanding" straw man is built in your image, not mine, and seems to reflect your moral choices.

Withholding medical treatment from those who flout the law or refuse to take sensible public health advice is not a sound ethical or moral decision. I don't support it, nor does the law, nor medical ethics. Where I live, motorcycle helmets are mandatory, riders without helmets are fined. Same for drink and drug drivers, random testing and heavy fines provide a disincentive. People involved in accidents are tested for alcohol and drugs and if over the limit, they're fined and most vehicle insurance is void. If they refuse a test, they can be fined and punished even more heavily than if they return a positive test.

Listen, you're fairly polite, which I appreciate.  

If you think I'm getting tested every week for 'fun' or 'to know if I'm sick' - you're absolutely nuts.

I get tested every new country I enter. That's a requirement of almost every country (except Mexico, thankfully).
I've been pretty clear on this for the last year.  I do minimum legal compliance, but I do comply. (like it or not).
Countries that require vaccines, we skip.
Countries that require quarantines, we skip.

It's not complicated.
 

If there was a benefit to getting vaccinated, I would consider it.  I've documented this pretty at length here.
There is no benefit, only risk, so, I make the personal choice to decline a new vaccine for a virus that doesn't concern me.

 

You chose otherwise, that's super!  Enjoy, get as many boosters as you want.
I don't care what you do, and I don't ask you about your own health choices.
I don't judge you based on what you do to your body.

I just don't get why this is so hard for you to understand.

Los Angeles is filled with needles, drug addicts and human feces.  But, my vaccine status is something you chose to focus on.
Our government has printed 23% of all US dollars in the past ~decade. But, segregating people is your rallying cry.
The US fights Trillion dollars wars for 20 years. And you want to stop the world so you can feel safe.

 

The level of banal, idiotic myopia on *exactly* what the corporate media tell you to focus on... is stunning.
And you just keep cheering and celebrating yourselves.

 

I'll never understand how an entire society can be so blinded, so quickly, by so few.

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For those who don't know, physicians in the U.S. who refuse/reject Covid vaccination are a small minority:

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

Quote

 

CHICAGO — The American Medical Association (AMA) today released a new survey (PDF) among practicing physicians that shows more than 96 percent of surveyed U.S. physicians have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19, with no significant difference in vaccination rates across regions. Of the physicians who are not yet vaccinated, an additional 45 percent do plan to get vaccinated.

The national AMA survey is the first to specifically collect data on practicing physicians’ COVID-19 vaccination rates. The survey was conducted June 3–8 and showed an increase of more than 20 percent for physicians who have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19 compared to a May 2021 Medscape poll.

 

Unfortunately there is a huge discrepancy between physicians and nurses and techs and other such support staff, where there is considerable variation between geographic regions but generally have significantly lower vaccination rates/acceptance (like 50-70 percentish).

These kind of numbers are consistent with what I saw in Texas (just moved from there back to the West coast), even in a very conservative Trump voting cohort pretty much all the doctors were vaccinated, even the ones who promoted hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.  A survey was done just before initial vaccine rollout by one of the biggest hospital systems I worked in and showed greater than 90 percent acceptance of vaccination among the physicians and something like 60-70 percent among the nurses and other staff.

Texas, by the way, requires by state law all physicians to have documented proof of current vaccination to all kinds of things ranging from diptheria, polio, measles, heptatitis etc. to be on the medical staff of a hospital, and has had this requirement for many years now.  As far as I can tell the only reason Covid vaccination is not on the list, being the single most important thing to be immunized against at the moment, is because of its Emergency Use Authorization status.  I will be curious to see, given the current state of GOP Covid politics, whether Abbott wants to force Covid vaccination to be an exception to this vaccination requirement even after FDA approval.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

 

 

If there was a benefit to getting vaccinated, I would consider it.  I've documented this pretty at length here.
There is no benefit, only risk, so, I make the personal choice to decline a new vaccine for a virus that doesn't concern me.

 

 

BE , you have taken a benefit/risk approach which is logical.

My only question is whether you are really as open minded as you say your are. If the risk/benefit data significantly tipped in favor of getting vaccinated, are you the sort of person who can change their mind in the light of new data, or is there an underlying subconscious fear that you have not acknowledged to yourself?  I'm not saying there is in your case. The proof is in the baking. Lets see what decisions you make in the coming months.

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You all still taking BE seriously. He is completely full of bullshit. His anecdotes are bullshit. His friends are fictional. His travels are only in his dreams. He has conceded that he is a troll. Stop taking him seriously.

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3 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

Countries that require quarantines, we skip.

kRist but you are full of shit .

Tasmania March 2020 , remember you claim to have been there .

From midnight, Friday 20 March, all non-essential travellers departing for Tasmania will be required to quarantine for 14 days.

https://www.health.tas.gov.au/news/2020/Important_information_about_new_COVID-19_response_measures

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@BlatantEcho

If you think there is no benefit to vaccination then it's you who have been "blinded so quickly by so few".

In Alabama, the state hospital association said this week that 85% of hospitalized Covid-19 patients were unvaccinated.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/22/donald-trump-rally-alabama-covid-vaccine

Both Donald Trump and Greg Abbott, the Republican governor of Texas, have been vaccinated.

Compare the vaccination rates in UK and US, then compare the hospitalisation and death rates of the two. That clearly shows that vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the disease. Even in the US with a vaccination rate of about 50%, hospitalisations and deaths are lower in this wave compared to their last when vaccination rates were much lower.

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5 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

BE , you have taken a benefit/risk approach which is logical.

It might be a logical approach, but any sensible analysis does not result in "don't get vaccinated" unless BE is suffering from a very small range of medical conditions or is under about 12 years old.

5 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

My only question is whether you are really as open minded as you say your are. If the risk/benefit data significantly tipped in favor of getting vaccinated…

The data is and BE isn't. The data clearly shows the benefits of vaccination, both to individuals and the community. To continue to ignore that is to ignore facts so BE's decision to not get vaccinated by any criterion other than medical opinion for a specific case is illogical.

Noting that BE claims to be travelling a lot and crossing boarders sufficiently regularly to need to get tested weekly. Someone travelling that much is certain to come into contact with Covid, noting that it will still be prevalent even in populations that are 100% vaccinated and will be as endemic globally as the common cold or flu.

Of course BE's claims of travel might be total BS, whatever.

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On 8/21/2021 at 3:25 PM, BlatantEcho said:

Friend of mine's husband is a nurse.  
He just walked off the job this week when work required vaccination.  He said 'no thanks'.


He gets calls each week from recruiters seeking to hire any nurses possible, up to $6k/week.
He's not interested.

This will have a cascade effect, on all of us.
He's not the only one opting out of 'segregation by health status.'


'Biting off the nose to spite the face' - comes to mind.

 

What a load of bullshit, 6k a week and hes a nurse with medical training? Good fucking riddance I say if its true but its not

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9 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

BE , you have taken a benefit/risk approach which is logical.

My only question is whether you are really as open minded as you say your are. If the risk/benefit data significantly tipped in favor of getting vaccinated, are you the sort of person who can change their mind in the light of new data, or is there an underlying subconscious fear that you have not acknowledged to yourself?  I'm not saying there is in your case. The proof is in the baking. Lets see what decisions you make in the coming months.

Absolutely.

There are some vaccines being developed that are actually sterilizing against Covid.  I follow those a bit.
If there was one that was out for a few years, with high efficacy and transparent data on side effects, why would I not?

When something is mandated, and the side effect reports are hidden, and the risk of not getting it is inflated... then of course I'm suspicious.
Anyone with a brain would be.
 

Asking questions used to be ok in science.
People who disagreed with the group consensus we're trolls.  They just saw things differently.
Now we demonize those with different views than the masses - and we push to segregate them.

One policy for the whole world, hasn't served humanity very well in the long run.  
This seems to be another example of that.

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8 hours ago, Mid said:

kRist but you are full of shit .

Tasmania March 2020 , remember you claim to have been there .

From midnight, Friday 20 March, all non-essential travellers departing for Tasmania will be required to quarantine for 14 days.

https://www.health.tas.gov.au/news/2020/Important_information_about_new_COVID-19_response_measures

(huh huh, BE, could not possibly have been there, huh huh, he's a dumbass troll, I showed him on the internet!!)

Do you have any idea how unintelligent you sound trying to assert where I was, and was not?


I will make you a public bet @Mid:  
Whichever one of us is lying about me being in Tasmania in March 2020, will have the Ed delete their SA account AND donate $50,000.00USD to a sailing charity.

I'm in!


You?


 

(you shouldn't take this bet, but, I think this forum should see who is a liar and who is not)

--
First off, why in the holy mother of god would I say I was in Tasmania, when I was not?
What *exactly* do I gain from making that claim?
I don't give a shit what morons like you assert on the internet.  You are wrong.

Lucky for you, I looked through my photos, and happened to take a picture of a newspaper while I was in AUS, as the headline was super funny.
You can check the date if you wish. You can see the super markets without toilet paper, the exact plane I flew on, and Tasmania pics.

I posted the flight numbers (and even the fucking airplane registration of the plane I flew on, since I like planes)
Hell, I got stung by a bee at a sailing club with a bunch of friends.  
Want me to have them email you that we are in Tasmania?

IMG_4459.thumb.jpg.4eea106bf8cab63075de48eaab5a5751.jpgI

IMG_4465.thumb.JPG.a5a4bd7fbd5f76cee2c71967e657c6ba.JPG

IMG_4541.thumb.JPG.67f2ed63257f39dedcac5258c248085e.JPG

IMG_4642.thumb.JPG.d12af2f4178a0e788f6d2062ac1b3f26.JPG

 

 

Most people here don't like my opinions here, and that's fine.  But most people who read what I wrote, also realize I don't post lies.
don't post bullshit links to conspiracy videos.  
I don't post dumbshit memes.

I just provide a different view.  

 

Most people hate my opinion.  You can even call that a troll, I don't care.  
But, you should stop claiming I'm lying.   I'm not.

Most people can see, even if they hate my guts, that's not how I roll.  Never have.
I have no incentive to lie, the truth is damning enough as it is.

 

--> $50k donation to a sailing charity of the winners' choosing, and lifetime ban from SA for WHOEVER IS LYING HERE.

I'm in, my money is ready and I know a lot of good charities.  

Will you accept my bet publicly?

IMG_4606.JPG

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7 hours ago, RobG said:

@BlatantEcho

If you think there is no benefit to vaccination then it's you who have been "blinded so quickly by so few".

In Alabama, the state hospital association said this week that 85% of hospitalized Covid-19 patients were unvaccinated.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/22/donald-trump-rally-alabama-covid-vaccine

Both Donald Trump and Greg Abbott, the Republican governor of Texas, have been vaccinated.

Compare the vaccination rates in UK and US, then compare the hospitalisation and death rates of the two. That clearly shows that vaccination greatly reduces the severity of the disease. Even in the US with a vaccination rate of about 50%, hospitalisations and deaths are lower in this wave compared to their last when vaccination rates were much lower.

I don't get why I would care if Trump or Abbot were vaccinated?

I don't live in Texas, I don't live in the US, and I'm not a Republican.
Why would *that* convince me, if the data hasn't?

Are *you* swayed in your health decisions by what famous people do?


I'll say again:
-  I'm in the very low risk category for this, due to age and health.
- Vaccinated people still transmit the virus (perhaps even more than unvaccinated)
- There are no benefits to it (still have to wear a mask, lockdowns still happen...)
- I don't do things just because people bully me, or shame me.  In fact, that makes me dig in my heals

- I'l consider it in 3-5 years if Covid is still an issue, and as I get older.
For now, there is no data that says it's a net gain to me, soooo, I'm not taking it.

Why the hell does that bother you so much?

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1 hour ago, Caecilian said:

What a load of bullshit, 6k a week and hes a nurse with medical training? Good fucking riddance I say if its true but its not

This is so poorly written, it's not clear if you are saying $6,000 a week is a lot for a nurse, or not a lot?
I *assume* you're asserting it's a lot of money for a nurse?


I am not a nurse, but, I'm just reporting the offers he is getting.
I think he's dropping out of anesthesiology school because of the mandates.  I know those people get PAID.  So, I assume $6k a week is not a lot for those services.

*shrug* the entire medical community seems so weird to me.  I have no experience beyond friends as docs and nurses and hospital admin.

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@BlatantEcho

You might care about Trump and Abbott because they're high profile examples of staunch advocates for free choice, little or no restrictions, etc. and seem to have similar views on Covid to you yet have both been vaccinated. I.e. it's not inconsistent to hold those views yet still decide vaccination is a good idea. Closer to home, Gladys Berejiklian seems to be heading the same way, though with more cautious public statements.

If you are in a low risk category, good for you. But that isn't zero risk, and you can still pass it on if you get it. Vaccinated people tend to pass on far less virus than unvaccinated people, though Delta has changed that somewhat. I have seen no research showing that vaccinated people pass on Covid at a greater rate than unvaccinated, quite the opposite. As states open up in the next 6 months, the disease will be rampant, so your chance of getting it will be greatly increased.

The benefits are as always: less chance of catching it, far lower chance of hospitalisation and death if you catch it, and less chance of passing it on. I figured I was more likely to catch it in a big outbreak when hospitals are likely to be struggling with cases. So avoiding hospitalisation seems like a good idea. As a small business owner, I want to see the end of lockdowns as soon as possible, and if a magic number like 70% fully vaccinated does that, then best I help get to that number by getting fully vaccinated as soon as I can (I am now fully vaccinated with Az).

I'm neither bullying nor shaming you, just responding to your reasons. If you don't want to get vaccinated, fine. But don't post misinformation. It's statistically beneficial to individuals and the community for everyone who can be vaccinated to get vaccinated (generally everyone over 12 or 16 depending on jurisdiction or study you care to take note of).

No one is going to force you to get vaccinated or withhold medical treatment because you aren't. You might, in future, be subject to restrictions in regard to travel, businesses you can visit and other in–person interactions.

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3 hours ago, Mid said:

Modern Dustcloud - Reality is Obscured

 

A: You are a Liar

B: You protest too much

$50,000 USD to charity and lifetime ban from Sailing Anarchy for whomever is wrong.  Mid or BlatantEcho!
Anyone else want to see who is right or wrong?

Are you in or out  @Mid
I'm 100% serious.  I'll send you an email of bank account, and I'll hire an independent lawyer to arbitrate the facts.
Seriously.  
I'm down to prove who is right and who is wrong.

 

ohhh, wait, you're wrong, so you'll just back away quietly.

 

I ignore most trolls like you, because you're all beyond help.
You're just so stuck in your ways, you can't imagine someone is out, enjoying the world, living their life and not bothering anyone.

I'm calling YOU out because you're lying.  

You've been caught, and you don't say 'sorry, I lied, apologies' - like a human.
You just ignore it, like a coward.

legit, $50k bet and lifetime ban from SA.
You or me.  

Why would you NOT take that bet?  You have a chance to get me kicked off forever!
You think you caught me red handed pretending I was in Tasmania!  
So, now you can prove it and show the world that you know the truth, and I do not!

Edited by BlatantEcho
Mid can't read good
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4 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

You caught me red handed pretending I was in Tasmania!

:D

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58 minutes ago, RobG said:

@BlatantEcho

You might care about Trump and Abbott because they're high profile examples of staunch advocates for free choice, little or no restrictions, etc. and seem to have similar views on Covid to you yet have both been vaccinated. I.e. it's not inconsistent to hold those views yet still decide vaccination is a good idea. Closer to home, Gladys Berejiklian seems to be heading the same way, though with more cautious public statements.

If you are in a low risk category, good for you. But that isn't zero risk, and you can still pass it on if you get it. Vaccinated people tend to pass on far less virus than unvaccinated people, though Delta has changed that somewhat. I have seen no research showing that vaccinated people pass on Covid at a greater rate than unvaccinated, quite the opposite. As states open up in the next 6 months, the disease will be rampant, so your chance of getting it will be greatly increased.

The benefits are as always: less chance of catching it, far lower chance of hospitalisation and death if you catch it, and less chance of passing it on. I figured I was more likely to catch it in a big outbreak when hospitals are likely to be struggling with cases. So avoiding hospitalisation seems like a good idea. As a small business owner, I want to see the end of lockdowns as soon as possible, and if a magic number like 70% fully vaccinated does that, then best I help get to that number by getting fully vaccinated as soon as I can (I am now fully vaccinated with Az).

I'm neither bullying nor shaming you, just responding to your reasons. If you don't want to get vaccinated, fine. But don't post misinformation. It's statistically beneficial to individuals and the community for everyone who can be vaccinated to get vaccinated (generally everyone over 12 or 16 depending on jurisdiction or study you care to take note of).

No one is going to force you to get vaccinated or withhold medical treatment because you aren't. You might, in future, be subject to restrictions in regard to travel, businesses you can visit and other in–person interactions.

This is reasonable and well thought out.

As we've seen though, '70% vaccinated' doesn't ensure things reopen.... at all.
The goalposts keep moving.

In the US, the cities and states that have that, are demanding proof of vaccination.  Which, kind of makes me wonder if herd immunity is a real thing.
If 80% of people are vaccinated, why do you need to check which individuals are vaccinated? 

Unless we see what we see in Israel and beyond.  That even 80% vax rate, doesn't stop waves.
So.... if the vaccines aren't working very well, or are losing effectiveness.  I'll just wait to sterilizing ones are available, with years of data on the known side effects.

Just seems a lot safer than taking a risk now.
Plus, f*** Pfizer and the US government for giving them liability protection.

 

--

I mentioned this in another thread, but it's similar to why I don't take malaria meds even in high risk areas of Africa.
They make me feel terrible.
If I get malaria, I'll deal with it.  But, life is too short to feel bad for months at a time to not get malaria.


I'll live my life and accept the risks that come with my decisions.  Instead of giving into the current group consensus on something.
Never worked out for me to follow the group.  And I am so happy I continue to not.

 


 

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3 minutes ago, Mid said:

:D

 

With such a witty response like that, it's a wonder your brain has enough synaptic activity to keep your heart beating.

 

You are doing, exactly what you accuse 'the other side' of doing.
You make up stuff, and then stick your head in the sand and say 'nah nah nah, I'm right, you're an idiot!!'
 

Are you proud of yourself?

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3 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Are you proud of yourself?

for seeing you for what you are 

a liar and conspiracy theorist

proud ..ABSOLUTELY

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7 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

There are some vaccines being developed that are actually sterilizing against Covid.  I follow those a bit.
If there was one that was out for a few years, with high efficacy and transparent data on side effects, why would I not?

Sterilizing would certainly be an added benefit for mankind.  However the most important criteria for your personal decision should be safety and efficacy.

Waiting a few years is unnecessary procrastination.  Any side effects from the vaccines will be apparent in 6-18 months. The vaccine has long since been replaced by antibodies.

Thus far pharma and cdc have been transparent on side effects.  Pfiizer was quick to announce the slightly disappointing news that efficacy started to fade in 6 months and booster shot may be neccesary. CDC publiched an update on side effects in June. Hopefully we get anothe update in September.

Im not aware of any state that has mandated vaccination vs Covid yet.

 

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7 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:




I will make you a public bet @Mid:  
Whichever one of us is lying about me being in Tasmania in March 2020, will have the Ed delete their SA account AND donate $50,000.00USD to a sailing charity.

I'm in!
 

 

 

Most of us dont care if you have been to Tasmania or Uganda in real life or on the internet. Take your bet offline with Mid and message him.

Thanks

Maybe tell us what you do for a living if you want to establish credibility.

 

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59 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Most of us dont care if you have been to Tasmania or Uganda in real life or on the internet. Take your bet offline with Mid and message him.

Thanks

Maybe tell us what you do for a living if you want to establish credibility.

 

You have to be kidding. BE is a fat kid in a basement somewhere. You will never get anything truthful from a troll like him. Same as Kate.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Sterilizing would certainly be an added benefit for mankind.  However the most important criteria for your personal decision should be safety and efficacy.

Waiting a few years is unnecessary procrastination.  Any side effects from the vaccines will be apparent in 6-18 months. The vaccine has long since been replaced by antibodies.

Thus far pharma and cdc have been transparent on side effects.  Pfiizer was quick to announce the slightly disappointing news that efficacy started to fade in 6 months and booster shot may be neccesary. CDC publiched an update on side effects in June. Hopefully we get anothe update in September.

Im not aware of any state that has mandated vaccination vs Covid yet.

 

Very profitable transparency too.

I think I'd be waiting for some peer reviewed papers from a disinterested org.

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2 minutes ago, Melibob said:

Very profitable transparency too.

I think I'd be waiting for some peer reviewed papers from a disinterested org.

Not sure anyone is disinterested on this one.

You could be waiting a long time For peer-reviewed papers from a disinterested org.

My interest is in protecting me and mine first, followed by protecting and promoting the social good.

I’m not about to throw myself on the funeral pyre of a society where a significant percentage of the inhabitants are willfully blind to the implications of their actions (or lack thereof) on both themselves and others.

For better or worse, we are all in this together. 

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56 minutes ago, accnick said:

For better or worse, we are all in this together. 

I think we can safely say at this point that it's most definitely for worse.

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13 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

I mentioned this in another thread, but it's similar to why I don't take malaria meds even in high risk areas of Africa.
They make me feel terrible.
If I get malaria, I'll deal with it.  But, life is too short to feel bad for months at a time to not get malaria.

I've had malaria and know a number of people who've also had it. Take the drugs.

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3 hours ago, RobG said:

I've had malaria and know a number of people who've also had it. Take the drugs.

RobG Shh.....,

Whatever you do BE, DONT take anti malaria drugs and please go to Africa a lot please

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